Excellent observation, byoffer. I agree. Kelly Purple was also strongly leaning towards Sash per her secret scene comments.

Also telling is Dan's violent hatred of Sash, which apparently persists. Sash probably did break his word to Dan, but the anger is so intense.

Jane seems to believe it. I don't believe it.

There are indeed rules against destroying personal property, but in the hierarchy of Survivor Rules, the grandaddy of them all is no conspiring to share prize money.

My theory on why it matters so much, is that without this rule, you could easily get a F4 who decide that 250K in the hand is worth 1 mil in the bush -- make a sworn agreement, don't really care how the game ends as they all get the same money. Burnett wants the players to fight for that one grand prize that is far above the 2nd place prize.

It's not that it's so immoral to agree to share a prize, but that if people do it, the result may be very boring TV.

>My theory on why it matters
>so much, is that without
>this rule, you could easily
>get a F4 who decide
>that 250K in the hand
>is worth 1 mil in
>the bush -- make a
>sworn agreement, don't really care
>how the game ends as
>they all get the same
>money. Burnett wants the
>players to fight for that
>one grand prize that is
>far above the 2nd place
>prize.

My theory deals with someone having to pay for going back on a deal.

Look at Yau Man/Dreemz. They made a deal to share a prize. But, that was done, and the entire deal played out within the game. Dreemz didn't own up to his end, and he paid the price for it at the final tribal council.

Compare that to the person who offers to give someone $200,000 for their vote. If they end up winning, and don't own up to the deal, they get away scott-free.

In an interview, Holly said she was going to vote Sash and then changed to Chase after he said he'd give $ to charity see my post over in ecst for link

LAST EDITED ON 12-21-10 AT 01:13 AM (EST)

Considering how lax they've been about their supposed rules (few as they are), it seems Sash's only real crime was to push rule-breaking past the breaking point. Holly destroyed Dan's shoes, Russ burned socks, Nay stole socks, Nay assaulted Kelly B., not to mention contract violations that have been ignored, but uh-oh sharing the prize money crosses the line. SEG and CBS only have themselves to blame for all the times they've looked the other way.

>Considering how lax they've been about
>their supposed rules (few as
>they are), it seems Sash's
>only real crime was to
>push rule-breaking past the breaking
>point. Holly destroyed Dan's
>shoes, Russ burned socks, Nay
>stole socks, Nay assaulted Kelly
>B., not to mention contract
>violations that have been ignored,
>but uh-oh sharing the prize
>money crosses the line.
>SEG and CBS only have
>themselves to blame for all
>the times they've looked the
>other way.

So, so true.

BTW everyone -- I know things will be slow around here until the next season, so I just wanted to make sure I wished you all a Merry Christmas/Happy Hanukkah and Happy New Year.

Indeed, Happy Holidays to All and to All a Good Break!
Seasons Greetings!

Having reread this, it occurs to me that I shouldn't just jump on the condemn Sash bandwagon, though it is possible he deserves it. He played a bad game anyway, nothing at all like the Iceman. Without having seen actual footage of the conversation, for all we know Jane may have misunderstood something he said, which could well have been just another lie really. Tell her what she wants to hear. Even when he's being truthful he doesn't know how to be honest.

What surprises me, and it is something that has cropped up a few times, is: Why wouldn't Jeff have known about this before it came up in front of him? Granted, he himself isn't out there watching everything they say and do as it happens. But there are crews out there recording everything they can, you would think Jeff would be getting updates several times a day on what's been happening.

>What surprises me, and it is
>something that has cropped up
>a few times, is: Why
>wouldn't Jeff have known about
>this before it came up
>in front of him?
>Granted, he himself isn't out
>there watching everything they say
>and do as it happens.
> But there are crews
>out there recording everything they
>can, you would think Jeff
>would be getting updates several
>times a day on what's
>been happening.

Well, Jeff has said time and time again that he doesn't get any information about what goes on at camp.

But, in this case, I'm assuming that no one outside of Jane and Sash knew anything about this supposed conversation. If the producers had knowledge of it that they could give to Jeff, they would have had enough evidence to disqualify Sash.

I think it's possible that Jane thought Sash was promising to pay off her mortgage when he really promised to pay off his mother's mortgage. But even if it was simply a big misunderstanding, Sash had played so sketchily that everybody would probably believe Jane's side of the story.

Thinking it over, how could this even happen? Jane was the player on the block, Sash had been the one making deals left and right and yet the crew would have left them alone on the beach to make that deal? A camera crew would certainly have followed them and it would have been on tape.

There's nothing certain about that. Players get away from the camera crews all the time. In this case apparently there WAS no camera crew there when Sash and Jane had this conversation, and with no camera crew there at the time, there was no evidence on which to base a DQ and therefore it was her word against his. With the camera crews having been caught with their pants down, there was nothing the producers could do other than sweep the whole deal under the rug, put a gag order on everybody involved and hope the word didn't get out. Unfortunately for them missyae and his source were on the case and it did get out. This mess is probably why CBS & SEG got so bent out of shape about the source spoiling when they never really did before. With an inside source letting any and every cat out of the bag, they can't sweep anything under the rug, so they can't avoid getting embarrassed if something like this comes up.

Sorry, but I'm not convinced. We heard from many contestants that it simply doesn't happen. I've often read that players say they weren't totally blindsided because they know that a camera crew gets assigned to the player that's on the block. The crew would never had let Jane and Sash alone.

As for this: "Unfortunately for them missyae and his source were on the case and it did get out. This mess is probably why CBS & SEG got so bent out of shape about the source spoiling when they never really did before"

If that were true than priorities would mean nothing! This little "case" is nothing to get upset about compared to having a whole boot list revealed. If they are prosecuting the source it's because they finally identified the dumbass that leaked information.

Just because a lot of contestants SAY it doesn't happen doesn't mean that it didn't in this one instance. I'm sure they try not to leave the player on the block uncovered, but guess what? Humans screw up, and it is entirely possible that Jane and Sash had no camera crew with them at the exact time the conversation in question took place. In fact, not only is it possible, it's the only explanation that makes any sense, because if a camera crew had been there, I'm sure they would have reviewed the footage as soon as possible and DQ'ed Sash if he said it, and if he didn't say it Jeff would have gone to the camp and to Ponderosa and clarified what really happened so nobody would be operating on the basis of bull$hit. And we would have known about it because they could have shown it and explained it, and/or missyae's source would have put it out. The fact that this didn't happen tells me that it is very unlikely that there was a camera crew there at the exact moment whatever was said was said, and therefore there was no evidence showing what exactly did happen and the producers were therefore left with no choice but to sweep the whole mess under the rug and hope it didn't get out.

Missyae's original spoiler said that Sash & Jane were out in the water away from the camera. Furthermore, he said that the players this season did that a couple of times -- once it was Brenda and NaOnka -- out in the water, away from the cameras. So, it happened a couple of times this season, not just with Jane & Sash.

Actually I'm fairly sure that the water escape only applied to the two girls. It was Brenda and Kelly Purple, and they wanted to get naked and clean and also talk privately.

missyae didn't know exactly where the Sash/Jane thing happened -- on the beach is as exact as it got.

There's a crazy amount of footage shot each day. I doubt it would be possibly to review it all at a TC, if it had happened that afternoon.

I would think that if there were existing footage, Sash would have asked them to find it, if not then, by now, so that it could be laid to rest.

But the simplest reason why there isn't footage is that it didn't happen. Occam's razor.

>But the simplest reason why there
>isn't footage is that it
>didn't happen. Occam's razor.

Or that it happened when there weren't cameras close enough to catch it...

LAST EDITED ON 12-23-10 AT 12:26 PM (EST)

More the mikes, this is about what was said. Though the crew have had years to get it down to a science I'm sure they always have a certain amount of unusable material. What is said when they speak in hushed tones during a heavy rain or even on a beach with a pounding surf, they may have it but it is too messed up to clear up the matter. Telephone game. Mumble in an old lady's ear she may be telling the truth about what she thought she heard even if it wasn't what was said. What happens in vagueness stays in vagueness.

I'll echo what dabo said. There's just hours and hours and hours upon hours of footage being aired, and who's to say that what one cameraman thinks is newsworthy might not be newsworthy to another, so something might get missed along the way? Also I'd imagine that a cameraman already serving 6 hours filming or an editor staring at film for hours might become a little numb to something said out of the blue that they didn't catch it right away or overlooked it.

My Occam's razor says it's likely the cameraman didn't realize the significance of the comment if it did happen. When there's smoke, there's fire, so I believe there's "something" to whatever might have happened between Sash and Jane - what, exactly, it is, I don't know.

I went back through the thread & found missyae's original response:

missyae: They (refering to Sash & Jane) slipped off alone out on the beach. It was not the only time players got away from cameras for this season. There was another incident involving 2 female players away from cameras out in the water.

Although I obviously confused the "out in the water" to refer to both the girls & Sash & Jane, missyae does seem to say Sash & Jane did "slip off alone" away from the cameras.

Missyae later gives his opinion that Jane lied, but he acknowledges that "with the way they both played the game" it is hard to tell. This supports my premise that it is irrelevant whether Sash did make the offer -- he played such a shady game out there that the jury believed he could have done it. Thus, they didn't have a good opinion of Sash anyway, and he probably wouldn't have won even without the "incident."

Suppose there was a serious doubt that Sash broke one of Survivor's biggest rules, do you think Jeff would have congratualed him as he did during the reunion? All that: "I was sure you wouldn't make it passed the first TC" would not have been mentioned. Or, if they thought Jane lied about it, wouldn't they disqualify her from winning the Sprint prize?

She lied on Survivor, like oh my heck.

I still think that if anyone in the crew, even just a gopher, heard something about a prize-sharing deal, that should go up-channel very quickly; Jeff should not only have known about it before Tribal but he and MB would have had a conference about it.

Lying to each other is one thing, lying to production to get someone disqualified would be something else, I'd assume.

But lying about one another goes along with lying to one another, so where do you draw the line.

Kind of an amazingly brilliant lie if it was an intentional lie, you have to put yourself in the lawyer huddle as they try to sort it out. "Well, if she's telling the truth and they had an agreement they both should be expelled, but if she's telling the truth and she didn't say yes to the agreement then there was no agreement so no rule was broken and they're both still playing the game, there's no right answer here, we're in trouble, you got any ideas?" It's Sash's problem that his game was vulnerable to being scuttled that way, but this zeroes in as well on a chink in the production armor which is compounded by all the times they've looked the other way about stuff.

No wonder they decided to batten down the hatches and try to plug all the spoiling leaks, let's hope they also decided from now on to strictly enforce their own rules on the game.

>But lying about one another goes
>along with lying to one
>another, so where do you
>draw the line.

Easy: When the lie is addressed to production.

>Kind of an amazingly brilliant lie
>if it was an intentional
>lie, you have to put
>yourself in the lawyer huddle
>as they try to sort
>it out. "Well, if
>she's telling the truth and
>they had an agreement they
>both should be expelled, but
>if she's telling the truth
>and she didn't say yes
>to the agreement then there
>was no agreement so no
>rule was broken and they're
>both still playing the game,
>there's no right answer here,
>we're in trouble, you got
>any ideas?"

Only if they didn't have a crew covering Jane at all times which they always do.

>It's Sash's
>problem that his game was
>vulnerable to being scuttled that
>way,

Everyone could have been vulnerable to such a lie, even Tom.

>No wonder they decided to batten
>down the hatches and try
>to plug all the spoiling
>leaks, let's hope they also
>decided from now on to
>strictly enforce their own rules
>on the game.

You told me that they identified the source but you really think this trivial matter would be a bigger reason to stop a source than preventing boot lists from being revealed?????

Come to think of it, this could have been a great way to identify missyae's source. If you have it narrowed down to one or two possibilities, feed each a different lie similar to this and see which "news" gets revealed. Maybe this was how the dumbass was busted!

>>> If you have it narrowed down to one or two possibilities, feed each a different lie similar to this and see which "news" gets revealed.

CBS has done this already with the S22 spoilers.

>>>> If you have it narrowed down to one or two possibilities, feed each a different lie similar to this and see which "news" gets revealed.

>CBS has done this already with
>the S22 spoilers.

Do I dare hope you mean it isn't RussHole versus BostonRob?

No ... Russ and Rob were at the reunion for a reason.
They did it with the spoilers that Carrie Prejean and Kimbo Slice were contestants, and with the fake spoilage for Episode 1.

Yeah, I figured as much now I'm even more afraid of seeing Cirie, Coach and Rupert!

Thanks for the info and Merry Christmas!

LAST EDITED ON 12-28-10 AT 12:02 PM (EST)

>>>>> If you have it narrowed down to one or two possibilities, feed each a different lie similar to this and see which "news" gets revealed.
>
>>CBS has done this already with
>>the S22 spoilers.
>
>
>Do I dare hope you mean
>it isn't RussHole versus BostonRob?

Not gonna spoil anything for you, but here's something that should make you (and me) deliriously happy:

I hear that Russell needed an above average amount of therapy from Dr. Liza (Siegel). He was in disbelief that, as the best player ever, he would be voted out when he was.

OboyOboyOboyOboyO!

Truth is tough on Russ? Much as I'd love to see that ego crushed, the whole world knows he couldn't have lasted very long in HvV had all the other allstarz known about his game, and as that one went he lucked out when Tyson screwed up.

But now we've got the double whammy of Redemption Island, so maybe he goes straight from being booted to being beaten by a dumb blond.

You aren't seeing that there are permutations to this, it's a legal minefield where SEG is up the creek somehow whatever the truth.

It's a lie or she misunderstood, eh just another lie by a player about a player to other players, no action taken against them, how does SEG fix this contractual hole in the future?

It's true he offered but she didn't agree to it, there's no agreement, without an agreement there is no cause to expell anyone, again how does SEG fix this contractual hole in the future?

It's true and there was the agreement, all parties in the agreement should be expelled from the game, this season is in the toilet, how do they fix this? Then they absolutely have to go find out what has been recorded, which okay they should be finding out anyway.

Per that, even if the players got away from the cameras and pulled off their personal mikes, long distance recording of the event is something the players cannot be absolutely certain did not occur, there ought to be something recorded even if it would need technological enhancement and expert attention in order to bring out what was said. That could take time and would probably be unusable on television but in this instance it only has to stand up in court. Headache.

So, what was the agreement if there was one? This involves a mortgage, oh blast. Offering to pay off her mortgage is sharing the reward, simple enough. But if he said he would buy the mortgage, that's a business transaction she isn't a party to, he's just spending his money, she ends up owing him money but maybe gets a better mortgage out of it or feels more secure not paying her payments to him because what's he gonna do about it blah blah blah. Or he could have just said, since he is a real estate guy, that he would look at her mortgage and see if he could help her get a better one, which he can do without winning anyway, blah blah blah. But of course he's a NYC kid and doesn't know from farms in NC, handling out of state properties is Dan's area, let's rope Dan in on this, blah blah blah. There may be any number of permutations to this I've not thought of, the legal huddle must have been something else, they should have recorded that as well.

It's a dementedly "stick it to the man" (in this case SEG and CBS) game move no matter how it works out, checkmate suckers!