I thought I would start a thread for the discussion of Jacob and Man #2 (Esau?)

We see them at odds with each other at the beginning of the season finale. One light- the other dark. Watching the black rock sail in.

Some Old Testament "mythology"

Jacob and Esau were twin sons of Isaac the son of Abraham. (Abraham tried to kill Isaac at one point remember?) Esau was Isaac's favorite and Jacob was his mother's favorite. Jacob's name means "deceiver". Jacob tricks his brother Esau and his father Isaac into giving him Jacob the birthright and blessing that rightfully belongs to his firstborn brother Esau. Jacob ends up leaving and is later deceived himself as he is tricked into marrying Laban's daughter Leah when he really wants Rachel. Jacob has a dream where he wrestles with an "angel" and wins. Afer he becomes very wealthy he later meets up with his brother Esau- he was sure Esau wanted to kill him- but Esau meets him with love and leaves him in peace.

Handcrafted by RollDdice 2005

• RE: Jacob and Man #2,trigirl, 11:00 AM, 05-14-09
• Opening Transcript,DoodleBug, 11:07 AM, 05-14-09
  • RE: Opening Transcript,weltek, 03:31 PM, 05-14-09
    • RE: Opening Transcript,Breezy, 06:34 PM, 05-14-09
      • RE: Opening Transcript,DoodleBug, 10:16 AM, 05-15-09
• Who has he "been"?,weltek, 03:29 PM, 05-14-09
  • Alex,moonbaby, 09:37 PM, 05-14-09
    • RE: Alex,trigirl, 07:00 AM, 05-15-09
      • RE: Alex,weltek, 12:11 PM, 05-15-09
        • RE: Alex,trigirl, 11:27 PM, 05-25-09
  • Christian,DoodleBug, 10:20 AM, 05-15-09
  • Hurley's ghost-friends?,weltek, 12:31 PM, 05-15-09
• RE: Jacob and Man #2,michel, 08:53 PM, 05-18-09
  • RE: Jacob and Man #2,weltek, 12:19 PM, 05-19-09
    • RE: Jacob and Man #2,Flowerpower, 09:56 AM, 02-01-10
  • RE: Jacob and Man #2,Flowerpower, 09:35 AM, 02-01-10

From Lostpedia.....

GRAY-HAIRED MAN: Morning.

BLOND MAN: Mornin'.

GRAY-HAIRED MAN: Mind if I join you?

BLOND MAN: Please. Want some fish?

GRAY-HAIRED MAN: Thank you. I just ate.

BLOND MAN: I take it you're here 'cause of the ship.

GRAY-HAIRED MAN: I am. How did they find the Island?

BLOND MAN: You'll have to ask 'em when they get here.

GRAY-HAIRED MAN: I don't have to ask. You brought them here. Still trying to prove me wrong, aren't you?

BLOND MAN: You are wrong.

GRAY-HAIRED MAN: Am I? They come. They fight. They destroy. They corrupt. It always ends the same.

BLOND MAN: It only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress.

GRAY-HAIRED MAN: Do you have any idea how badly I wanna kill you?

BLOND MAN: Yes.

GRAY-HAIRED MAN: One of these days, sooner or later... I'm going to find a loophole, my friend.

BLOND MAN: Well, when you do, I'll be right here.

GRAY-HAIRED MAN: Always nice talking to you, Jacob.

JACOB: Nice talking to you, too.

I wonder why/how it's possible they presumably cannot kill eachother. Another LOST mystery.

-A Tribetastic Creation

The island won't let them die.

Yes, I think so.

I also thought of Ben and Widmore's meeting in London. They also talked about how they couldn't kill one another either.

Whose "bodies" might Man #2 have subsumed? I looked at a few hunches on Lostpedia.

Locke's Dad? Locke's dad "faked his death" at one point, Locke finds him, Dad kills Locke. Plus, there's some weird age issues with how old he might be (from Lostpedia).

Eko's brother's "ghost"????
"However, Eko found that his brother's body was no longer in the plane. Eko saw Yemi once more appearing in dirty clothing and chased him into an open field. There, Eko confessed that he had not sinned to his brother. Eko stated that he did not ask for the life that he was given, but it had been given nonetheless. And with it, he did the best he could. Eko also mentioned his sacrifice for Yemi when they were young. However, what appeared to be Yemi announced that he was not Eko's brother. Again, the person who appeared like Yemi disappeared into the jungle, with Eko in hot pursuit. ("The Cost of Living")

The Monster then appeared and advanced threateningly while Eko began to recite the 23rd Psalm, as before. This time, however, it attacked him, beating him into trees and then slamming him into the ground. Locke found the brutally beaten Eko who, before he passed away, whispered into Locke's ears. If listened to closely Eko can be heard faintly saying "I saw the devil". Sayid asked what Eko’s final words were, to which Locke replied, "We're next."
http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Eko

-A Tribetastic Creation

and this is just a guess but when she came back from the dead inside the temple didn't she tell Ben to do everything Locke said? Well isn't that convenient

Locke was supposedly waiting outside, so it could have easily been that entity switching from Locke's form to being Alex and back again.

That's my story and I'm stickin with it.

I agree about Alex. Too convenient.

I agree completely.

-A Tribetastic Creation

Just watched the finale again and Not-Locke was really surprised when Ben told him that he would do whatever Not-Locke wanted because his dead daughter told him to.

If he was surprised, does that mean he wasn't Alex?

Also, Not-Locke didn't know that the four-toed statue was where Jacob would be. Shouldn't he have known that?

Although I find it strange that Christian and anti-Locke were on Hydra together. Not sure what they "rules" are (can he use two bodies at the same time?)

LAST EDITED ON 05-15-09 AT 12:32 PM (EST)

Hurley has been visited by several people. Among them, Charlie, Eko, Libby, institution guy in the robe...so does Man#2 visit Hurley in those forms, are those Jacob visiting Hurley in those forms, or do those people really visit Hurley? ETA: Do you remember if all those visitors told Hurley to go back or not to go back? I thought they told him to go back.

-A Tribetastic Creation

The Jacob vs X confrontation revived some of the lost interest in this season.

I saw it as a confrontation between Good and Evil.

Introduction:
Jacob: “I take it you’re here because of the ship.”
X: “I am. How did they find the island?”
J: “You’ll have to ask them when they get here.”
X: “I don’t have to ask; you brought them here. Still trying to prove me wrong, aren’t you?”
J: “You are wrong.”
X: “Am I? They come, they fight, they destroy, they corrupt. It always ends the same.”
J: “It only ends once. Everything that happens before that… It’s just progress.”
X, looking defiant: “Do you have any idea how badly I want to kill you?”
J: “Yes.”
X: “One of these days, sooner or later. I’m going to find a loophole, my friend.”
J: “When you do, I’ll be right here.”
X: “Always nice talking to you, Jacob.”
J: “Always nice talking to you.”

With this exchange I had the impression of hearing God (Jacob dressed in white) and the Devil (X in black) talking about Human Nature. God/Jacob brought them to the island to prove to Satan/X that men don’t always fight, destroy and corrupt but Satan knows differently because it has always ended that way before. Jacob refuses that answer because it never really ends until time ends.

Just like with Ben and his nemesis, Charles Widmore, we saw that Jacob had someone who also wanted him dead but who had to find a loophole in the “rules” in order to do so. What would prevent one from killing the other? I suggest that one cannot exist without the other. Just like Good can’t exist without Evil.

More Good vs Evil:
Chang, (dressed in white), wanted to stop Radzinsky’s (in black) experiment with the pocket of energy. That experience was presented like science done without thinking of the consequences: “Designing a station that will be able to manipulate electro-magnetism in ways we only dreamed of… I came to this island to change the world and that’s exactly what I intend to do.”
It was a Hydrogen bomb that Jack wanted to use to change everything back. That bomb is the most destructive example of what progress has led to.

Ben asked Locke (who we would find out later was X): “Why do you want me to kill Jacob?”
X answered: “Because, despite your loyal service to this island, you got cancer, you had to watch your daughter get gunned down right in front of you and, your reward for those sacrifices? You were banished and you did all this in the name of a man you never even met. So the question, Ben is: Why wouldn’t you want to kill Jacob?”

(Replace “Island” with “church” and you have the words of someone who wants Ben to renounce his God.)

We saw Jacob appear, in order, to Kate, Sawyer, Sayid, Alanna, Locke, Sun and Jin, Jack and Hurley. Of those visits, the one to Hurley was different in that he talked about the island, asking Hurley why he wouldn’t go back and telling him he wasn’t cursed or crazy but blessed instead.

Final confrontation:
Locke (X) to Ben: “Will you be able to do this? It won’t be easy but things will change once he’s gone.”
(Indeed, like a world without God.)

X: “Hello Jacob.”
Jacob: “You found your loophole.”
X: “Indeed I did. And you have no idea what I’ve gone through to be here.”
Ben: “Have you met before?”
X: “In a manner of speaking. Do what I asked you to Ben.”
Jacob: “Benjamin, whatever he’s told you, I want you to understand one thing: You have a choice.”
(Man's eternal debate about destiny vs free-will)
B: “What choice?”
J: “You can do what he asked or you can go and leave us to discuss our issues.”
B: “Oh! So now after all this time you’ve decided to stop ignoring me. 35 years I’ve lived on this island and all I ever heard was your name over and over. Richard would bring me your instructions, all those slips of paper and those lists and I never questioned anything. I did as I was told. When I dared to ask to see you myself, I was told “you have to wait, you have to be patient." But, when he asks to see you, he gets marched straight up here as if he were Moses. So, why him? What was it that was so wrong with me? What about me?”
J: “What about you?”

Ben stabbed Jacob who said: “They’re coming” before X pushed him the fire.

I interpret it this way: Jacob’s enemy returned to the island under Locke’s appearance and somehow that satisfied the desired loophole. Eloise, who was the Others leader for a while, told Jack to put his father’s shoes on Locke. That could be the way the substitution was made. That would lead us to believe that Christian and Eloise wanted to see Jacob dead. Christian wasn't speaking for Jacob but was the one that invaded his cabin.

Using the dead Locke, X was able to have Ben kill Jacob. In the end, it took a faithful follower to kill Jacob. But is he dead? I think Jacob found his own loophole and he isn’t the one that Ben killed. Just like Locke, Hurley came to the island with someone else’s property, the guitar case. Like Locke for X, I think Hurley is Jacob’s loophole, his savior, the truly special one that was found and brought to the island after all these years!

Or, if Jacob is really dead, then the incident caused by either Dharma or Jack was nothing in comparison to the one Locke and Ben caused!

LAST EDITED ON 05-19-09 AT 12:38 PM (EST)

I love the idea that Jacob has also found a Loophole. Could Christian Shepard have been his dead person jump? And this is why Eloise insists Jack put Christian's shoes on Dead Locke? "Jacob" needed a something of Christian's to go back for him to go back? I'm still not sure about Eloise and her mission in life. My gut says she's been bad in her motherly life for a reason, but she's really a good person.

Could Sun finding Charlie's ring be significant in any of this? It seemed like an odd scene. It was Charlie's great-grandfather's ring....funny how that's simlar to the watch given to Jack. There is a linkage to the past in a form of trinkets. Did all these men with heirlooms once live on the island? Is it significant these all came on flight 815? And now Hurley brought something in a guitar case, Christian's shoes came on dead Locke, Jin's ring came...

ETA: I was reading on Lostpedia about dreams/visions. Some dead people have appeared sans shoes. Are the shoeless Jacob and the shoed Man#2 (see opening sequence pic Trigirl posted above)? Who knew that shoes might be important beyond Christian's shoes?
http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Dreams

-A Tribetastic Creation

Weltek: I like your thoughts regarding all of the possessions of others that are there...The watch that belonged to Mr. Paik that Jin had was clearly significant. I had forgotten about Charlie's ring that was found by Sun in Aaron's cradle...that has to be significant. Hurley chose to bring the guitar case back, that I had assumed belonged to Charlie, but I don't know....and Jack brought Christian's shoes back as instructed by Eloise.

Another trinket that has had significance for Kate was the toy airplane, but that belonged to her long lost love. Sawyer still had his letter. Locke had the compass...a trinket. All of these trinkets tied them to significant people in their past...perhaps their constants?

Wow, michel! I loved your thoughts on Lost up through the finale for Season 5. I agree with most of it! While I have been a loyal Lost fan, I was unable to watch it in it's entirity through the years. So, I tried to rewatch the seasons, unfortunately, I was not able to get through them all. It's amazing how much you can pick up retrospectively. I, too, believe that the whole story is one of good vs. bad, the white vs. the dark forces. I also believe that Jacob is representative of God, and that the man in Black is symbolic for the devil. I also believe that Hurley is the vehicle used for Jacob's loophole as well, while I hadn't narrowed it down to the the items belonging to others...the shoes on Locke, and the guitar case, who I assumed was Charlie's, with Hurley. But, the case was not given to Hurley by Jacob, Jacob told him that it was not his, Hurley had free choice to take it or not...regardless, it's very significant, as were the instructions via Eloise Hawking. But Hurley, is indeed the lucky one, the blessed one. Again that brings us to the questions of the numbers, for that is how Hurley became special.

Still can't quite grasp the origin of the numbers and their special powers.

I also think that Jacob, will indeed be saved, or might he be resurrected, as Jesus was. (I also think that Locke will "rise again", remember he was touched by Jacob and saved...he surely in his life at home seemed to be a man of great suffering) I firmly believe, "they are coming" is in reference to the Survivors of Oceanic 815 and there will be a "war" between the forces. I believe that when the survivors arrive in present day, the rest of the story will then be quite linear, as I have heard will happen.

Who are the good guys? Well both the Others claimed that they were, and Ilana and her group claimed that they were. And, I love that Frank commented that usually the ones that claim to be the good guys so adamantly, are the bad guys...for me, the good guys are our Survivors. They did bad things in their lives prior to the crash, they were thieves, conmen, murderers, assassins, torturers, liars, drug addicts, gluttons, they did not honor their mothers and their fathers, just to name a few. They were sinners, but in the end I do feel they are redeemed. But, to coin a phrase, "What about Ben?" The master manipulator seems to be the pawn in both of their plans/games. Arguably though, they have all been manipulated by the good and evil forces. Where they land will inevitably be left up to them and their free will.

Also, Hurley is indeed special, and I do relate that to the numbers. He also sees dead people...why? Because he's special in a good way. But, Hurley constantly questioned his insights or visits, and constantly worried about appearing crazy, while Locke seemed to have more blind faith. Clearly there are parallels between the two characters.

Important to note the constant offering of choices and free will per Jacob. Just as man has free will to choose over right and wrong. In the season finale he offered Hurley the choice of taking Flight 316 or not, and he again made the suggestion to Ben, that he indeed had a choice as well when it came time to carry out the man in Black's order.

With the man in blacks ability to use bodies, I question whether or not Jacob can and does as well. While I have associated Christian with Jacob, as he seemed to inhabit Jacobs cabin, and speaks for Jacob to Locke, I now question if the man in black inhabited Christian as well, and as has been noted Mr. Eko's brother as well, and others like Walt....and we could continue on and on, what about Kate's black horse? On retrospect much of the mysteries that have happened on the island were examples of how they were manipulated by the good and evil forces. Remember how Locke was out hunting the boar and he came eye to eye with smokey. He noted later that he had looked into the eye of the island and it was beautiful...who was it that he saw...the good force, or a temptation by the devil? Seems like with the season finale of 5, it was more likely the devil.

Interesting how another conflict is between science and faith. The most notable example is how Jack evolved from a man of science who denied Locke's faith, but one who was convinced with him getting off of the Island. It seems that it is still in conflict...Now Sawyer is the one that does not believe, while Jack is the one with faith. And that reminds me of the one that did not come back to the island with the others...Desmond. Faith has been intertwined all throughout his life, how will it end for Desmond? I really look forward to the final season, and can't wait for the "end". I do think it will be good for some, and not so good for others...