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"Who are the 5 greatest players to ever play this game?"

Posted by JoeGazillionaire on 08-16-13 at 06:52 AM
Phillip talked about Rob Marciano like Rob was the greatest player to ever play this game. I'm just curious who you rank as the top five players to ever play the game.

On a side note, who are the best guys in challenges if they just had an all challenge warriors survivor? I still think Ozzy is the best.... but Reynold looked pretty impressive. Malcolm is strong, but he surprisingly loses certain challenges whereas Ozzy seemed to be good at almost everything: water, running, puzzles, balancing, endurance.

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"RE: Who are the 5 greatest players to ever play this game?"
Posted by tribephyl on 08-16-13 at 01:37 PM
You must mean Rob Mariano, as Marciano would directly link him to organized crime. Not that he hasn't acted like a crime boss in his game-play, because he has, just being nit-picky.

Phillip is one of the worst judges of character and strategy so I wouldn't really take his praise as the law to any degree. A sheep is a better player than Phillip.

As stated many times throughout all of the seasons, the BEST player is the one whom possesses strengths in all 3 of the disciplines needed to succeed in Survivor. Physical, Social and Luck. But even some of those players have been bested by bad luck, over-extention and bitterness.

Rob, on his 4th attempt, learned that his best strategy was to wrest control of his entire tribe by including them in all matters of tribal manners. And preventing them from comunicating with the opposing tribe members. From voting, and challenges to merely talking around camp. He was also able to use the "star-struck" newbies to his advantage.
The 2 closest people to that level of power were Brian and Kim. Who did it without the "advantage" of being there multiple times before. Yul also maintained some of that level of control but with a much smaller group. And of course, Richard cannot be discounted, as he saw the validity of picking a core group of people and keeping them together. And to a lesser degree Tom.

Personally, I also believe that winner's don't always have the best game. Or didn't always portray the winningest strategies.
But did indeed outlast those whom were better at "the game of Survivor".

The hardest part to judge is keeping a balance between being physically strong, mentally capable and being with the numbers each and every tribal council. A fair amount of folks; Cirie, Terry, Ozzy, Kathy O'Brien... each had deficiencies in one or more of the disciplines but were definitely "winner" material.

My personal list of the top 5 players ever may not include winners and thereby not really qualify but I would have to say that Cirie and Kathy O'Brien were both very capable players who got Out-Lucked at the end but because of game-play were very deserving of the title. Of the winners? I loathe to say it but Brian (because of his Goat) and Richard (because of the "newness") are on that list as well And for the one player who had it all and actually succeeded at getting to the finals and winning would have to be Kim.

"RE: Who are the 5 greatest players to ever play this game?"
Posted by Aruba on 08-22-13 at 07:48 PM
The TOP FIVE of All-Time. I'm sure this will spur some debate.

The factors I weigh to rank a castaway are: Physical, Social, and Mental/Emotional. We've had players who were strong in two of the three yet pathetic in the third and still went on to either win or be the main castaway in their season. But IMO, if we are talking TOP FIVE OF ALL-TIME, you simply cannot be pathetic in even one.

Also I place an overwhelming majority of the weight on the first (or in some cases the only) season the Survivor participated in. Very little if any points are given for a Survivor who Jiffy/Production orgasm over to give second, third (do I dare say) FOUR chances to try to win!

With all that being said, the greatest Survivor of all-time is TOM WESTMAN (S10). This guy was above average, if not dominant, in every discipline of the game...he simply did not have a weakness. Oh, and he was a likable character with integrity to boot.

After Chris lied, schemed, and backstabbed his way to victory in S9 I saw an interview with Jeff Probst. He was asked if he thought a decent player with integrity could ever win Survivor. He paused a couple seconds, shook his head, and answered, "Probably not." Then Tom Westman came along the following season to prove it could be done.

Also in the early days of Survivor, much chatter was about a book about "Game Theory" by John Nash that outlined group dynamics. It stated a group with a lot of leaders is doomed to fail. While it is a compelling theory with some merit, the facts be told, Westman's Koror tribe in S10 was stockpiled with leaders or wannabe leaders. Not only did Westman still dominate, but the Koror tribe would go on to rank as one of the most successful tribes ever.

Nash's "group dynamics" aside, the cream will always rise to the top. And Tom Westman is the "cream" of Survivor.

It was tough to rank the remaining four, so I'll round off the Top Five in order of first season appearances:

RICH HATCH (S1) - Got to give kudos to the winner of the season that started it all. He had no blueprint to work from...in a way he created a blueprint for future castaways. He was light years ahead of everyone else in Borneo on how to play the game. Yes he was not strong in competitions, but would not say he was physically pathetic either. After all, it takes more than mental/social skills to catch all the fish he did and provide for his tribe.

BRIAN HEIDIK (S5) - Understand, I am not ranking who I would most want as a next door neighbor. In real life this creep is a disgusting social mess. But in the game of Survivor he was as solid as they come. Brian will not get his full due because he played with a horrible cast. But bad casting is a result of incompetent Producers; can't fault Brian for that.

J.T. THOMAS (18) - Not since Tom Westman would another likeable, charismatic personality come to the forefront and win Survivor in dominant fashion. How dominant? Consider this--He never received a single vote in any TC...until FTC where he won in unanimous fashion clean-sweeping every vote! You can't get more dominant than that!!!

KIM SPRADLIN (S24) - Yes the male vs. female format benefitted her game immensely. Especially when one "male" was Colton...and most of the rest of the cast were idiots, zombies, and coattail riders. Oh, and throw in the asinine twist of placing the HII in Colton's lap, the game could not have been anymore tailor made for Kim. But much like the case with Brian, I won't penalize her for Production's ineptness. The truth be told, she took full advantage of every situation and was strong in every aspect in the game of Survivor en route to a dominant victory.

Yes, you have to mention Ozzy when talking about the best "Challenge Studs" in Survivor. Especially in the water, "aqua-lung" Ozzy is in a class by himself.

But no disrespect to Ozzy, IMO the greatest challenge performance in a season would go to Terry Deitz (S12). Land, sea, mental...he simply blew everyone else away. And he accomplished this feat over the age of 40! Also, this was back in the days when finding the HII was a challenge in itself and was not ridiculously "handed" to someone. Terry gets props for this as well.

Of course you can't leave out Tom Westman in the conversation of Challenge Studs. He was the man reason for Koror's dominance and was a standout in individual challenges at Palau. Although he did stink at the shooting/aiming portions of a challenge. He even joked in a confessional that it was a good thing he was a fireman and not a cop. (HaHa) I can't remember if Ozzy had any challenges that involved shooting/aiming?

Point of reference...you can't use a "scorecard" to crown a castaway the best challenge competitor because many times a player will begin accumulating wins AFTER the better challenge competitors have been Anti-Darwined out of the game. So in some cases the win total can be skewed and misleading.

Yes, it would be entertaining to have a "Challenge Warrior Survivor" as you stated. Well entertaining for some I guess. For the Reality Show fans who get all warm and fuzzy watching social butterflies fluttering their wings for an hour, it would be like sticking hot needles in their eyes.

Only issue with calling back the Challenge Studs for this kind of Survivor format...Westman and Deitz would be 50+. And take it from a guy who will be turning 52 in a couple of weeks...Father Time does have a way of catching up with ya! LOL.

"RE: Who are the 5 greatest players to ever play this game?"
Posted by michel on 08-23-13 at 09:18 PM
Good list. We obviously don't see the game the same way but I understand your point of view.

I just want to comment on one thing:

"Also in the early days of Survivor, much chatter was about a book about "Game Theory" by John Nash that outlined group dynamics. It stated a group with a lot of leaders is doomed to fail. While it is a compelling theory with some merit, the facts be told, Westman's Koror tribe in S10 was stockpiled with leaders or wannabe leaders. Not only did Westman still dominate, but the Koror tribe would go on to rank as one of the most successful tribes ever."

Nash Theory was used by us during the airing of Palau and we all had Koror as an N-Tribe which is the Nash Equilibrium tribe or, in other words, a 1 leader tribe. Sure, Ian, Gregg and even Caryn were leader types but they all followed Tom, letting him make the decisions. That's why they dominated...that and Ulong being stockpiled with mactors that quit one after the other.

"RE: Who are the 5 greatest players to ever play this game?"
Posted by Aruba on 08-24-13 at 10:57 AM
Thanks Michel.

Actually for this list it's not necessarily how I see or define "the game;" it's more how I define the term "greatness." As I stated, to be among the GREATEST you simply cannot have a weakness in even ONE discipline. It doesn't matter to me whether I'm ranking the greatest athletes, entertainers, or in this case, the greatest Survivors ever.

Keeping true to my philosophy, it was extremely hard leaving TODD off my list. Everything you stated was dead on and he did give the greatest FTC performance of all-time. But can't overlook the fact he was nothing short of a bona fide joke physically.

No surprise to find Cirie on your list. Hey, nothing for nothing, the woman could write a how-to manual on advancing in the game of Survivor. Especially if casted on a tribe who does relatively well in challenges where there'd be no dire need to scramble to eliminate a weak challenge link thus putting her at risk. Problem is, once she advances to the endgame, her obvious weakness prevents her from closing the door and sealing the deal. All "great" ones are able to close the deal.

Yes in Skankivor: Micronesia she was snake bitten when Production threw the last minute curve and went F2 instead of F3. But even so, the final IC was something she should have done well in...especially with her dealing with and handling instruments as a nurse. She STILL failed and couldn't get it done.

Assuming that season ended in F3, there's nothing you can say or show that will convince me Amanda does not get Ozzy, James, and Erik's vote at FTC. At the risk of being sacrilegious, Amanda could have been in a F13 with Jesus and his Apostles and STILL got Ozzy, James, and Erik's votes. Which means for Cirie to win should would have needed to clean sweep the remaining four over Perv-ati to win...I dunno.

Even in Exile Island...the only one I see her "clobbering" was Danielle and because they had to face off in the F4 tiebreaker they would not been able to sit together at FTC. She doesn't beat Terry in the Finals, and I don't believe she'd beat Aras either.

I guess what I'm trying to say (and this does not only apply to Cirie) is if you're saying she/he would have won if this happened, if that didn't happen, if this one didn't have that, if they didn't make that decision...yadda, yadda, yadda, blah, blah, blah...how "great" could they really be???

"RE: Who are the 5 greatest players to ever play this game?"
Posted by michel on 08-24-13 at 05:05 PM
LAST EDITED ON 08-24-13 AT 05:07 PM (EST)

"As I stated, to be among the GREATEST you simply cannot have a weakness in even ONE discipline. I'm ranking the greatest athletes, entertainers, or in this case, the greatest Survivors ever...

Actually, the greatest doesn't necessarily have to be great in all disciplines. Hitting home runs is quite important for baseball players but you can be a great baseball player and be really poor at hitting them. Think Hall of Fame member Rod Carew for example or, better yet, a pitcher who doesn't even have to hit a single one to be great.

I'm not sure if Tom Brady (replace him with Aaron Rodgers if you prefer) could tackle anyone yet he is a great football player despite that weakness in a key skill of his sport.

Same happens in entertainment: Some great actors cannot sing, some singers cannot act.

That being said, it is especially meaningless in Survivor where being great at everything only makes you a target. The wise players play down some of their skills or compensate their weaknesses in other ways.

As for Cirie, we know that DURING the game, Sally, Austin and Nick all said that they hated Danielle and Aras but that they loved Cirie. Cirie definitely beats Aras in that F2. Terry had no chance to be in that F2.

In Micronesia, Elisa wrote that the jury was definitely voting for Cirie if she had been there. Even Erik would have voted for her. Amanda ONLY had James and Ozzy.

I know it's a lot of blah blah but it is what the players themselves said while the game was still underway. It doesn't come from me and it wasn't said after watching the show but directly from the jury's talks in Ponderosa.

Ils sont fous, ces Romains!

"RE: Who are the 5 greatest players to ever play this game?"
Posted by Aruba on 08-25-13 at 09:29 AM
As I stated in my initial post...a castaway can be weak/pathetic in a discipline and STILL make their mark on the game--even win their season of Survivor. But, once again, we are talking the GREATEST OF ALL TIME.

Yes, Rod Carew was a one-dimensional hitter. Even so I truly believe he deserves to be in the Hall-of-Fame. But if I had to rank the top five GREATEST HITTERS OF ALL-TIME, Carew doesn't even get mentioned. I challenge you to find such a list where any baseball expert would rank Carew as a top five hitter of all time. WHY??? Because he did not excel in every hitting discipline. In no way is that a criticism. Carew's job was to get hits and "set the table"...and other teammates roles were to knock him in.

As for your sports examples...I don't know how to put it tactfully so I'll just say it straight--Very silly examples.

The winner of a season is called SOLE SURVIVOR. Please note the emphasis on the word "sole." It is an individual honor. You're mixing apples with oranges when comparing TEAM players on a TEAM sport who have a specific role on a TEAM to achieve a TEAM accomplishment.

Pitchers are not on the team to hit...as a matter of fact in the AL they are not even asked to hold a bat. Even great QBs like Brady or Rodgers would not be on the team if they tried to block out linebackers after they handed the ball off. It's not their jobs.

OK...enough of that silliness.

In EI, no way Terry, Shane, and Austin vote for Cirie over Aras. If Cirie made the F2 it would have meant that she beats Danielle in the F4 tiebreaker. We have all seen Danielle's poor sportsmanship as a sore-loser. I'm sure she'd still be smarting over her loss to Cirie, so I wouldn't chalk that up as a "definite" vote.

Also consider Danielle walking up to the Ponderosa. Courtney would have been ALL over her as to why she turned on her. Danielle's answer would have been quick and honest--It was Cirie who was concerned about you getting carried to the F2 because you were everyone's "perfect goat" so it was Cirie who spearheaded your boot. After acquiring that info...Oh Yes...Courtney "definitely" votes Cirie. LOL

I do observe the "game still underway." And anyone who followed Skankivor: Micronesia closely would see how Erik idolized Ozzy and worshipped the ground he walked on. Even your "favorite nurse" said in a confessional that "stardust came from Erik's mouth every time he mentioned the name Ozzy."

Simply put, Erik votes the same way his idol Ozzy votes at FTC. Heck, we're talking about the same nave ignorant boy who gave his bloody idol away because he was asked to. Sure, afterwards when Erik went home and reflected on this blunders, he grew up and said he would have done many things different. But at that FTC "still underway" he votes how Ozzy/James wanted him to.

"A Bit of Math"
Posted by michel on 08-25-13 at 01:40 PM
"Yes, Rod Carew was a one-dimensional hitter. Even so I truly believe he deserves to be in the Hall-of-Fame. But if I had to rank the top five GREATEST HITTERS OF ALL-TIME, Carew doesn't even get mentioned. I challenge you to find such a list where any baseball expert would rank Carew as a top five hitter of all time"

I was expecting this objection and your argument doesn't work: There have been less than 400 Survivors over the 13 years of Survivor while there have been thousands of Baseball players over the 130 years of MLB. If we are talking about the 5 Greatest Survivors then that represents approximately the top 1% of all players. That same percentage applied to all baseball players would certainly include Carew amongst the greatest hitters.


As for the team aspect, yes Survivor is an individual game but again, you do not have to be great in everything to be the greatest ever.

Anyway, I'd say that your top 4 were all weak in one aspect of the game:

- Tom was extremely poor at scheming. He continually relied on Ian so he was really lucky that Ian was dumb enough to be that loyal. Replace Ian by Malcolm whom I'm pretty sure Tom would have liked just as much. Tom would have been completely blindsided at F6 by Malcolm.

- Hatch had a weak social game: His arrogance could have gotten him voted out first.

- Brian rubbed many people the wrong way. Put him in Suck Job in place of Jed and they throw the challenge to boot him!

- JT needed Stephen to think straight. We saw how he makes stupid moves without Stephen. Parvati called him a dumb kid and she was right.

Austin and Sally both said they would have voted for Cirie. Danielle votes for Cirie because she adored her so she wouldn't tell Courtney to vote against Cirie. Courtney didn't like Aras whom she found fake. Bruce absolutely votes for Cirie = Cirie wins over Aras who only has Shane and Terry's votes. Aras even admitted at one point that he was going to take Cirie to the end even if he knew he was going to lose to her. Stop fighting a lost battle.

As for Micronesia, I base my count there also on what the jurors said while you go by your personal "logic". Erik wanted to boot Amanda which should tell you that his attachment to Ozzy had its limits. Saying that he would vote the way Ozzy told him to is laughable. Hell! the other Erik, the one in China, didn't vote the same way Jaime did and he actually married her.

"RE: A Bit of Math"
Posted by Aruba on 08-28-13 at 06:46 PM
However you wish to "spin" or backpedal your way out of it, it's silly to question a QBs "greatness" because he doesn't block, or a pitcher's "greatness" because he can't hit in a team sport. Once again, bad examples to try to drive your point home.

OK, let me see if I get this right--a castaway who may lie, scheme or backstab makes a statement to support your favorite player and NOW you all of a sudden their word is taken as truth? How convenient. LMAO! Hey, there have been decent individuals with integrity, i.e. Tom Westman, who I would take their word seriously because of their integrity as non-liars...but very, very few exist on Survivor.

And once gain, if we need to back into the claim of a player's "greatness" because this one said that, or that one would have done this...woulda, coulda, shoulda...yadda, yadda, yadda, blah,blah,blah...then how "great" can they really be???

Finally...WOW, talk about applying your PhD in Spinology. Geez, I guess I'll have to rethink how "great" Tom Westman really was because he was "weak" at scheming? **snort** Huh? What?
If anything that should be a feather in his cap that he was dominant and great WITHOUT resorting to such negative traits. Instead you spin it as a deficiency or flaw in his greatness that he is unable to resort to such negative behavior? Sweet Mother of Mercy!

This discussion has gone from silly to ridiculous.

Over and out with this thread...I'll take my reporting of the facts and personal satire to other threads on these Board and won't be revisiting this one.

BTW, as I stated in my initial post, #2 - #5 were NOT ranked. Because Westman is leaps and bounds over every other castaway, I listed 2 -5 not in order of rank but in order of Survivor appearance.

Peace Out.

"RE: A Bit of Math"
Posted by michel on 08-28-13 at 09:50 PM
Scheming isn't negative, scheming is key in Outwitting and Tom isn't that good at Outwitting others. Talk about spin: You take the first part of the show's mantra and call it negative!!

BTW, Ty Cobb and Pete Rose were weak as far as hitting Home Runs and one would be on many lists of greatest hitters. I guess you forgot about them!

"RE: Who are the 5 greatest players to ever play this game?"
Posted by Colonel Zoidberg on 08-23-13 at 04:51 AM
For me, there is only one person who could be considered the GOAT in Survivor (Greatest Of All Time, that is,) and that is the only person to do it twice. Others tried and failed, usually resulting in early boots.

Sandra Diaz-Twine may not have been flashy, strong in challenges, or even influential, but she won twice using a formula that worked for her, which was simply "stay off the chopping block." She vanquished two of the biggest villains in show history (Fairplay and Evil Russell.) And furthermore, she beat another previous winner who was also playing a strong game (Parvati.)

And unlike Boston Rob, she needed two attempts to win twice rather than four attempts to win a gift-wrapped season once. Boston Rob's tribe could have been Ulonged if not for the fact that his opponents made a huge blunder in throwing a challenge, a strategy that, absent tribe switches, has yet to pay off and has always resulted in disaster. I don't include Brian, Yul, and Kim in the list of GOATs simply because they all benefited from thrown challenges as well (come to think of it, Earl could be in this group, since Moto won a challenge but opted to go to TC, although at least they did so as a result of a sadistic choice rather than gross stupidity.)

"RE: Who are the 5 greatest players to ever play this game?"
Posted by michel on 08-23-13 at 09:09 PM
I think you put too much weight on the thrown challenges to dismiss some players. After all, Sandra's tribe threw a challenge and she still won.

Aitu's thrown challenge happened so early that it had practically no effect on Yul's result. It's not as if "Heavy Mental" Billy was a threat to win and the Puka tribe was dissolved before it could benefit from a thrown challenge.

The tribe switch negated the impact of Manono's thrown challenge, resetting the game for everyone. Certainly, it saved 1 woman but Kim would still have had enough options to navigate her way to the end.

Zapatera still won the challenge that followed the thrown one so it's not as if they couldn't win without Hantz. Rob's tribe had to work hard to win those other challenges.

Earl's game was also reset by a tribal switch after the thrown challenge. Anyway, Ravu's string of defeats was largely due to the lack of shelter. They were close in the first two ICs but just wasted away after that. It was only just that Moto had to give up the shelter. Nothing sadistic about that choice.

The only one that truly benefited from a thrown challenge was Brian because Suck Job self-destroyed soon after eliminating their best challenge performer, Jed.

"RE: Who are the 5 greatest players to ever play this game?"
Posted by Aruba on 08-24-13 at 01:19 PM
Let's not forget the first "thrown" challenge in Survivor history. It was never really publicized as such, but it went down like this:

In (S3)Africa, Ethan, Lex and Big Tom formed an alliance on Day One. A few days later they felt the need to include a female so they brought in Kim.

This season introduced a twist that would chance the game of Survivor forever: Tribal Switch.

As a result, Ethan saw alliance mates Lex and Tom go over to the other tribe. In exchange his tribe got players from the dysfunctional tribe that was split down the middle between hard-working pushy elders vs. defiant lazy youngsters. Frank (pushy elder) and Silas (lazy youngster) joined Ethan's tribe. Frank wasted little time telling Ethan about this division.

This opportunity proved to be a win/win for Ethan. If his tribe was to win the upcoming IC, chances are either Lex or Big Tom would get voted out at the other tribe's TC, and for all intensive purposes, his game is pretty much over. But if they lost, he could suck Frank in and vote out Silas.

The IC involved completing a puzzle. Long story short...slow and deliberate would be an understatement to explain Ethan's approach to the puzzle. You'd swear he was trying to solve Einstein's Theory of Relativity. Needless to say...Ethan's tribe lost, Lex & Big Tom were spared, Silas was voted out, and the alliance of Etha/Lex/Big Tom/Kim ALL advance to the F4!

Oh, BTW, Ethan won Sole Survivor: Africa

"RE: Who are the 5 greatest players to ever play this game?"
Posted by Colonel Zoidberg on 08-28-13 at 07:22 PM
I excluded Africa on purpose because it was after a tribe switch and the dynamic was the way it was. Also because it wasn't really necessary; Lex and Big Tom won the tiebreak vote on Samburu and hung on.

The analogy between Sook Jai and Zapatera is better than it looks in the above posts. In both cases, a tribe up by two members threw a challenge to get rid of someone it did not want. In both cases, the dominant tribe won one more challenge bust lost every challenge afterwards. In both cases, a game twist created an unusual merge, and the dominant tribe went from tied when it could have had an advantage to being totally decimated.

Drake threw a challenge simply out of boredom, and a few people weren't really on board with it (i.e. Rupert.) In that case, the Morgans got back into it when they could have been totally destroyed and become Ulong before Ulong existed. Fittingly, however, the leader of the throw-the-challenge movement was ousted. Moto could have done the same and kept their boots on Ravu's throats if they were willing to give up their shelter; such an undertaking is possible if a tribe can work together, i.e. Koror. Instead, Moto let Ravu back in the game long enough to switch up membership when the tribes were almost even (aided a bit by a medevac, of course, but every game has its hiccups and a good tribe and a good player accounts for them.) Ravu should have gone into merge down 7-3 or 8-2 in original membership; instead, it was a completely workable 6-4 from which Yau-Man and Earl got back in the game.

I also believe that Aitu's decision to throw the challenge to get rid of Billy did have some far-reaching ramifications. For one thing, Hiki couldn't work together to save their lives and would almost certainly have lost the second challenge had Aitu not lollygagged their way through it on purpose. Furthermore, Aitu, after losing, foolishly let Billy pick who goes to Exile, and he sent Yul there on purpose for the sole purpose of causing trouble. Needless to say, Yul finds the idol and can coast to F3.

Hiki's tribe was also divided by gender, so it is not unreasonable to believe that Nate goes next. (Yes, yes, Nate voted for Ozzy to win; I know. Neither here nor there.) Nate went to Raro, but in this universe, simple math says Billy goes to Raro. Maybe he goes early and maybe not; I don't know. However, in the actual game, there were no original Aitu on the jury and only Ozzy in F3. Simple numbers states that, even if Cecilia goes as a weak member and JP as a threat right away, that leaves three original Aitu in the game instead of two. Sooner or later, Stephannie's going to crave mashed potatoes, Cao Boi's going to whip out his credit cards, and Flicka's going to annoy the hell out of people. Either Billy makes it to jury by sticking around and scheming or people get sick of him long enough to make Cristina stay. (Outside shot of JP sticking around, sure, but my point is that we get at least one other original Aitu to the jury.) And that may be enough to swing the jury in Ozzy's favor, as close as it was between the two. This long-winded bit of insane speculation is why I believe Aitu throwing the challenge to dump Billy was a bad idea.

"RE: Who are the 5 greatest players to ever play this game?"
Posted by michel on 08-28-13 at 10:10 PM
I've been saying for years that Yul didn't really have to play Survivor in order to win so if you want to discredit his win because of the thrown challenge, be my guess. I'll just say that you lost me when you implied Billy could vote for Ozzy in the end.

In Fiji, Earl's main alliance wasn't in Ravu, it was with the shelter builders and half of them were on Moto so the thrown challenge didn't influence his numbers very much.

You can't dismiss the thrown challenge in helping Sandra's win. If Drake doesn't throw the challenge, the Outcast tribe doesn't include Burton. Morgan continues to lose and they send Darrah and Osten who wouldn't fight to get back in the game. The Outcasts lose the challenge and Drake pagongs Morgan post merge. Sandra was helped by the chaotic post-merge but we have no idea what would have happened without that chaos.

Also, I find it interesting that you didn't explain how the thrown challenge made that much of an impact on Kim's game. They go to TC, boot Christina and the game changes...how? Not much.

"RE: Who are the 5 greatest players to ever play this game?"
Posted by michel on 08-23-13 at 06:17 PM
If by greatest players you mean who had the most impressive win then I'd have to say Hatch, Brian, Tom, JT and Kim. They each took control of their season, made their own way to the finale and then made good cases for themselves in front of the jury. However, they aren't necessarily the ones that I'd say are the best players to ever play the game.

Personally, I prefer the schemer, the player that can form multiple alliances and wisely choose the preferred path to victory. A player that can adapt by following someone's lead for a while but able to jump to the forefront when the time is right or do the reverse if the game suddenly flips against him.

My top 5:

Earl: Using the original twist of having everyone land on the same beach, Earl formed multiple alliances. First, he made sure that the 5 African Americans would stick together and not let the others split them apart. Then he formed a 10 person alliance with the "shelter builders" to counter Rocky and Liliana's alliance of Explorers. Finally, he made a personal alliance with Yau Man realizing from the start that he'd be a very valuable and loyal assistant.

When he wound up in Ravu, he let Rocky and Mookie take the lead but made sure his opinion was heard. He lost a few allies along the way but he kept enough around that when the switch occurred, he could surround himself with most of the followers that had originally joined his Shelter Builders' alliance. By the merge, he had a 6-3 advantage over the remaining Explorers (Mookie, Alex and Edgardo) and the funniest thing was that they didn't even know it.

Todd : Todd entered the game more prepared than just about anyone else except Rafe. He was one of us: Not just an average fan but someone who had spent a lot of time thinking about the strategy of the game.

He knew that he'd need to stand behind a strong leader so he used the Art of War to prop up Aaron into the role of the general but Todd was always the General. He quickly measured his opposition, realizing which players could pose strategic threats. Jaime, JR and Peih Gee were his biggest threats and he quickly disposed of each, always switching targets from members of the opposing tribe to some of his own tribe to keep everyone wondering what he was up too. Amanda (poor Amanda!) never understood his game and she thought she was the one that blindsided James. Todd had been preparing the big guy's exit for weeks before she "pulled" it off. His FTC performance was one of the best ever.

Sandra: It took me a long time to appreciate Sandra's game and I still believe she couldn't win if the person in control after the merge was a likable player. It seems she needs a Fairplay or a Hantz to be in charge so I'd like to see what she'd do if a Yul or a Tom was there against her in the F5.

Two wins however is very impressive and she was able to get into the main alliance both times. She was the one deciding the votes in the original Drake tribe. It was Sandra that turned the tables on both Burton and Trish pre-merge and it was also her that flipped the game against Fairplay and Burton at F5.

In HvV, even Boston Rob asked her opinion for the first boot so Sandra wisely kept the other former winner and booted Randy. When production made sure that Hantz would take control of the game, Sandra still found a way to boot Coach before her and Courtney. After the merge, she built the strongest case for the jury while fooling Hantz into thinking that she wasn't a threat. While he'd never win a jury vote, I truly believe that Sandra would never lose one.

Cirie: No one understood human nature better than our favorite nurse. She kept Casaya together, knowing that she needed them to eliminate La Mina. She had a F3 alliance with Aras and Shane on one side and a F4 alliance with Bruce, Danielle and Courtney on the other so she completely controlled the end game in Panama. Since both Aras and Danielle were going to take her to the F2 where she would have clobbered both, we can safely say that she would have won the game if Terry's idol hadn't saved him at F4 or if she had won the fire challenge against Danielle.

Similarly, we know from the jury itself that she would have won the million in Micronesia if production hadn't changed the F3 format at the last minute.

In HvV, she was once more in control of the Heroes' tribe and it took JT's duplicity combined with Tom's idol to vote her out. When it takes two ex-winners to vote someone out, you know you are talking about a great player.

Kim: Like Earl, Kim used the One World twist to forge alliances with almost everyone in the game. She wasn't the voice of the women at first but once she saw that they were messing up, she stepped forward and took charge. She had one of the best qualities for this game: She looked calm. While everyone was going crazier by the day, she was such a reassuring presence that many players told us they were happy to have her in their new tribe.

Her calm, confident attitude gave her multiple options at the merge. Not only could she choose between the NuSalani or stick with the original Salani but she could choose what was best for her within the women's alliance. Kat thought she was tight with Kim but she was the first one dispatched. The same could be said of Alicia who had good reasons to think that Kim would go with her and Christina to the F3 instead of the more likable Chelsea and Sabrina but Kim knew which way was best for her and she won that final vote hands down.

Those are my top five...I think. It hurts a bit to leave out Tina, Chris, Rafe, Danni and Cesternino who would probably be my next five. Hantz you ask? I'll wait until he shows me that he understands the game before even considering him.

PS. The best challenge performer has to be Boston Rob. Ozzy was only ever good in the water and he wasn't anything special after Cook islands. For example, Jason was much better than him in Micronesia. Rob was bad in Marquesas but he learned and dominated challenges in THREE seasons.

Ils sont fous, ces Romains!

"RE: Who are the 5 greatest players to ever play this game?"
Posted by JoeGazillionaire on 08-24-13 at 07:24 AM
Richard Hatch was ahead of his time, but I feel like he would not survive against this new breed of survivor who are playing at a much more complex level.... the survivors of the last 10 or so seasons are already thinking ahead with the immunity idol, splitting the votes, social game....their social game and alliance building/scheming is at a much higher level. Hatch would not be able to build alliances as well with this new breed or keep up scheming wise. He's the model T of survivor--necessary innovator...but outdated.

I also feel like some of the true powerhouses are not the ones that make it to the very end. Let's face it, there are a lot of coat-tail riders or opportunists that cling onto the two ton sharks battling each other. Russell Haantz doesn't get his due because everyone hates him, but he was really bullying his way through the game and making waves. Sandra's just kind of like the coat-tail rider that takes advantage of the powerhouses going at each other. She's not at the forefront like Boston Rob, who is almost like a mafia godfather. I actually hate coattail rider game like Tina Wesson's.... Kim, I agree, would be strong in any season because every girl seemed to look to her for her opinion....and Kim seems to know how to gain people's trust. If people didn't get to see Russell's game before and he was put in 3 back to back seasons without any preconceived knowledge of how he plays, he has those bully organizational skills to make aggressive moves. Same with Boston Rob or Kim. Of course, now that the secret is out on Haantz on tv, his evil pirate game won't work. I still think Ozzy is the Lebron James of the challenges...just so versatile. Ok, he can't be perfect and I think he wasn't in as good of shape for one of the seasons, but man in terms of variety of challenges....it was just remarkable. If someone whisked you off to an island, with no food, bad elements and threw all of these challenges you've never seen before like water, mud, balancing, running, jumping, doing puzzles, shooting hoops, throwing wrestling, running on logs... he pretty much did it all. Redemption Island is built for a player like him. Ozzy's real downfall is that he kind of gets arrogant or a little too sure...the opposite of what Cochran mentioned as knowing when to be insecure. Reynold seem like a pretty worthy challenge stud....it was surprising that he was a lot better than Malcolm. There are also some survivors that will always do well in each season based on social charm and likeability...I'll have to think about that some more. But, to sum up, I do feel like the guys that are powerhouses that make waves are the true great players. What happens half the time in survivor is that when the dust settles, there's always the players that don't make waves, who just ride coat tails and maybe even make a few good moves... It reminds me of the powerful Roman emperors/generals that go after each other for power...and end up killing each other...leaving a weaker leader who is just there by default.

I didn't want to make a separate thread for this, but probably the most dramatic tribal council I've seen is the Malcolm I've got 2 idols in my pocket. Malcolm is too aggressive at times, but he has a few moments of pure brilliance.... and that was the best tribal council I've ever seen. I think there was a similar one like that involving an immunity idol a while back that turned the tides...but this one as far as pure drama was just hilarious.

"RE: Who are the 5 greatest players to ever play this game?"
Posted by Aruba on 08-24-13 at 11:48 AM
Nice summation, Joe.

"I didn't want to make a separate thread for this, but probably the most dramatic tribal council I've seen is the Malcolm I've got 2 idols in my pocket. Malcolm is too aggressive at times, but he has a few moments of pure brilliance.... and that was the best tribal council I've ever seen.'

My favorite/most dramatic TCs of all time are:

(S14)Fiji - Alex, Mookie, and Adgardo decide to play their HII and blindside Cassandra. Only problem...racist Dre ran to his racially aligned castaways and spilled the beans to them. As a result, the racial alignment switched the target to Adgardo who would NOT have the HII.
When the early votes of Cassandra were read the three could not contain themselves and started snickering like giddy schoolgirls. Then when the votes for Edgardo were being read the immediate change of expressions and watching their collective jaws drop to the ground was priceless.

But my all-time favorite TC was:

(S9)Vanuatu - Quintessential male-basher Amii was on a season rampage to take out any castaway who was born with a penis. Her alliance was doing a successful job up to when she decided to put her approach on hold and take out Eliza. It would prove to be a major blunder. Chris/Eliza, with Twilla/Scout (both low on Amii's "totem pole") decided to turn the tables on the femi-nazi and blindside HER.
When the early votes of Eliza where read, Eliza turns to look straight at Amii. Amii gives her this fake-a$$, consoling "I'm sorry" look.
Then when Amii's name starts appearing, Eliza flashes a look right back at her as if to say..."Who's sorry NOW!"
Classic TC and Survivor at it's best!

"Memory Lane"
Posted by michel on 08-24-13 at 05:31 PM
A look at Fiji's TC:


And then, Vanuatu's:


Note that Mario lists them both in his top 5 of funniest Survivor moments.

"RE: Memory Lane"
Posted by Aruba on 08-25-13 at 08:31 AM
OMG Michel...where do you find this stuff???!!!

You are THE MAN!

Actually a correction with my post. I meant to say when Amii's love interest LeAnn's name starting showing up it was a "GOTCHA!"

It was the next TC when Amii was booted after Chris stepped up to the plate and won the II.

"RE: Memory Lane"
Posted by michel on 08-25-13 at 05:03 PM
"where do you find this stuff???!!!"

I've been a member not only of this board but also of Survivor Sucks, the facebook group "Previously on Survivor" and Rob-has-a-website". I've also read multiple blogs like Corvis' or realityTVblurred, Truedorktimes, Survivor Central, Survivor phoenix and many more. It helps!

Mario Lanza is my favorite Survivor writer. He could also be the most prolific. Here is where you will find both his lists:


"RE: Who are the 5 greatest players to ever play this game?"
Posted by JoeGazillionaire on 08-25-13 at 03:23 AM
>Nice summation, Joe.
>"I didn't want to make a
>separate thread for this, but
>probably the most dramatic tribal
>council I've seen is the
>Malcolm I've got 2 idols
>in my pocket. Malcolm
>is too aggressive at times,
>but he has a few
>moments of pure brilliance.... and
>that was the best tribal
>council I've ever seen.'

>My favorite/most dramatic TCs of all
>time are:
>(S14)Fiji - Alex, Mookie, and Adgardo
>decide to play their HII
>and blindside Cassandra. Only problem...racist
>Dre ran to his racially
>aligned castaways and spilled the
>beans to them. As a
>result, the racial alignment switched
>the target to Adgardo who
>would NOT have the HII.
>When the early votes of Cassandra
>were read the three could
>not contain themselves and started
>snickering like giddy schoolgirls. Then
>when the votes for Edgardo
>were being read the immediate
>change of expressions and watching
>their collective jaws drop to
>the ground was priceless.
>But my all-time favorite TC was:
>(S9)Vanuatu - Quintessential male-basher Amii
>was on a season rampage
>to take out any castaway
>who was born with a
>penis. Her alliance was doing
>a successful job up to
>when she decided to put
>her approach on hold and
>take out Eliza. It would
>prove to be a major
>blunder. Chris/Eliza, with Twilla/Scout (both
>low on Amii's "totem pole")
>decided to turn the tables
>on the femi-nazi and blindside
>When the early votes of Eliza
>where read, Eliza turns to
>look straight at Amii. Amii
>gives her this fake-a$$, consoling
>"I'm sorry" look.
>Then when Amii's name starts appearing,
>Eliza flashes a look right
>back at her as if
>to say..."Who's sorry NOW!"
>Classic TC and Survivor at it's

Those are some really good ones Aruba. Ah, the memories. Tribal councils like that and the Malcolm 2 idols remind me of why I like Survivor so much. I especially like it when a player is up against the wall and has throw haymakers to stay alive versus a formidable team that is overconfident. I think there was this other tribal council like that where an immunity idol completely turned the tables...but I can't quite recall which players did it.

"RE: Who are the 5 greatest players to ever play this game?"
Posted by Aruba on 08-25-13 at 08:41 AM
The first castaway to "successfully" play the HII was Yauman in Fiji.

What made Yauman's play memorable is he did it on a hunch that he might be at risk of being voted out. The ones who were trying to blindside him kept it quiet right up to the end only to have Yauman turn the tables on them when he played his idol.

Others played the HII also to save themselves (Amanda in Skankivor: Micronesia comes to mind) but she was flat out told by all that her name was going to be written down at TC. So playing her HII at TC was as big a no-brainer as you're going to get.

And when you consider all the castaways who did play their HII and ended up not needing to after the votes were tallied, it makes Yauman's feat even more impressive.

"RE: Who are the 5 greatest players to ever play this game?"
Posted by JoeGazillionaire on 08-26-13 at 02:56 AM
>The first castaway to "successfully" play
>the HII was Yauman in
>What made Yauman's play memorable is
>he did it on a
>hunch that he might be
>at risk of being voted
>out. The ones who were
>trying to blindside him kept
>it quiet right up to
>the end only to have
>Yauman turn the tables on
>them when he played his
>Others played the HII also to
>save themselves (Amanda in Skankivor:
>Micronesia comes to mind) but
>she was flat out told
>by all that her name
>was going to be written
>down at TC. So playing
>her HII at TC was
>as big a no-brainer as
>you're going to get.
>And when you consider all the
>castaways who did play their
>HII and ended up not
>needing to after the votes
>were tallied, it makes Yauman's
>feat even more impressive.

I love Yauman. I remember some of the macho guys would ineffectively try to use brawn and Yauman would walk by and use a smart solution and get it done. His wins at the challenges were surprising. He was a very fun underdog character.

"RE: Who are the 5 greatest players to ever play this game?"
Posted by Sunny_Bunny on 10-01-13 at 01:11 PM
I have to throw my support of Yauman too. During Mookie and Alex's failed attempt at being Tony Soprano after they searched his bag and found the idol, he stayed calm and just walked away. Then he found Stacey who told the tribe what happened. Everyone became so focused on how the two dimwits found the idol that the fact that Yao had the idol seemed to just blow over their heads. lol

"RE: Who are the 5 greatest players to ever play this game?"
Posted by BrassFan on 11-01-13 at 03:19 PM
>The first castaway to "successfully" play
>the HII was Yauman in

I thought the first was Gary Hogeboom who played one in Guatemala

"RE: Who are the 5 greatest players to ever play this game?"
Posted by dabo on 11-01-13 at 07:12 PM
That was under original HII rules where it was played before the vote and no votes could be cast against the person who played the idol. The rule change made it a much trickier game piece.

"RE: Who are the 5 greatest players to ever play this game?"
Posted by michel on 08-24-13 at 05:25 PM
LAST EDITED ON 08-24-13 AT 05:32 PM (EST)

Quote: "I actually hate coattail rider game like Tina Wesson's...

If you think Tina rode coat tails then you weren't on these boards when the season aired and are basing your opinion only on the edited TV version. Tina was actually the one that made ALL the voting decisions starting with episode #4, one of the greatest TCs ever. If anything, Colby followed and did what she told him to do.

As for Hatch, I think you are completely wrong in saying that "this new breed of survivor who are playing at a much more complex level..."

Today's player are as dumb as they ever were if not dumber. Hatch was ahead of his time back then and that's all that matters. I'm pretty sure Babe Ruth wouldn't hit as many home runs today as he did back then but that would be a dumb way to analyze his greatness. What we need to do is judge a player with how he or she dominated his contemporaries.

Quote: "Russell Hantz doesn't get his due because everyone hates him, but he was really bullying his way through the game and making waves."

I do hate Hantz but not because of what he did during Samoa. I hate him because he leaked the boot order to missyae and because he was the poorest loser ever. As for his game, I rank it low because of the way he behaved on the island, completely misunderstanding how the jury thinks. I truly believe that Natalie deserved that win.

Quote: "I do feel like the guys that are powerhouses that make waves are the true great players"

I feel like I am reading what Probst is saying or what Aruba thinks. Survivor is a great game BECAUSE the powerhouses don't always win.

"RE: Who are the 5 greatest players to ever play this game?"
Posted by JoeGazillionaire on 08-25-13 at 03:19 AM
It's hilarious that you are trying to make Tina Wesson out to be some kind of mastermind and basing that on some unsubstantiated chatter in previous discussion board threads. How strong was she when she didn't have Colby's coattails to ride on the second time around? She was voted out right away and really had no influence at all. She's one of the weakest Survivor winners of all time.

Hatch was smart in recognizing the strategy side of Survivor the first season when no one knew how to play the game, but against the new breed, he was completely ineffective at building alliances. Look at his second season, when he had to face competitors that were hip to the game. He was eaten alive.

You're mixing your dislike of Russell the person with his game. Before people were hip to his game, he was very effective at getting to the end and really making strong moves. He was certainly the driving force behind his alliances. He was a very dangerous person to have around in the game.

"RE: Who are the 5 greatest players to ever play this game?"
Posted by tribephyl on 08-25-13 at 02:58 PM
She was voted out right away because people knew she was dangerous. Not because she was an insufferable character or a challenge liability. I doubt a single Survivor player would ever classify her as a coat-tail rider.

"RE: Who are the 5 greatest players to ever play this game?"
Posted by michel on 08-25-13 at 04:35 PM
LAST EDITED ON 08-25-13 AT 04:54 PM (EST)

No, what I wrote about Tina was substantiated by all the players that talked about the season. This is what happened:

Mitchell and Jerri made an immediate alliance during the trek. The first person they approached was Tina and then they added Colby while Amber became their fifth. Kel and Keith, who had shown they weren't team players during that trek by going off on their own rather than staying to help carry the load, where going to be among the first three voted out along with Mad Dog. Colby and Mitchell even wanted Keith voted out before Mad Dog but Jerri and Tina convinced them otherwise.

Once Ogawhore lost three immunities in a row, Tina knew that something had to change. Yet, like Colby was heard saying on air, the tribe (meaning Jerri and Mitchell) had decided to stay the course and boot Keith.

On the way to TC, Tina approached Mitchell and asked him if he would vote out Amber instead of Keith. He said he wouldn't vote out a friend even if it meant losing the game. Tina went back to Colby and told him they had to vote out Mitchell since he had previous votes. Colby went along.

Tina was also the one that got the info out of Kimmi that Varner had prior votes so she got everyone to vote against him at the merge.

Later, she convinced her alliance that "good people" had to win this game. After "Hatch-the-snake" had won season 1, she got Lis and Rodger on her side, promising them that Jerri wouldn't go to the end. It gave her votes in her pocket that enabled her to boot Jerri and Amber. Colby wasn't really on board with that if you remember but Jerri and Amber were indeed voted out. That in itself should tell you who was in charge.

As for A$$ you have to know that, at the time, Hatch and Tina along with a few others like Rudy, Sue, Colby and Cesternino were huge stars. That made people like Jenna Lewis and Lex extremely jealous. Lex even had a pre-game alliance with Rob, Big Tom and Kathy that didn't include Ethan to make sure that none of the big stars would win this game. Hatch and Tina never stood a chance.

"You're mixing your dislike of Russell the person with his game. Before people were hip to his game, he was very effective at getting to the end and really making strong moves."

Absolutely not. I saw the flaws in his game well before I started hating him. The hate began only at the reunion and grew when I read all the obscenities he wrote on multiple boards. Before that, I already knew that Natalie deserved the win.

You can't be as blind as the second sentence makes it seem. Russell's tribe was going to be Ulonged until production saved their new star. They decided to save one Foa Foa member when they cancelled the scheduled double TC after Swann's evacuation. Then they decided to merge at 12, knowing that Galu was fractured. Had they merged at 10 like usual, one of two things would have happened: Either Foa Foa would have lost 1 or 2 extra members, making it even harder to come back or Galu would have gotten rid of Shambo, repairing their main fracture.

In the end, it was Galu that destroyed Galu, not Hantz. His supposed "big moves" were helped a lot by production stuffing his pockets with Hidden Immunity Idols. That second one, the one under the bridge, was purely and simply a gift to Russell. It was planted there while the group that won immunity was still on reward. They never even had a chance to look for it. Quite a reward!

"RE: Who are the 5 greatest players to ever play this game?"
Posted by JoeGazillionaire on 08-26-13 at 02:50 AM
I think you are letting emotions get in way of your evaluation of their actual games. The fact that you try to make Tina Wesson out to be some kind of mastermind while completely discounting Russell's game shows that you're letting your emotions color your view. I point out that you relied on unsubstantiated comments and then you refer me back to those unsubstantiated discussions and state them as facts. Where was that mastermind Tina Wesson on air? She had absolutely no power and would have gotten voted out if she didn't hook up to the power of Colby. Wow, the producers did an amazing job of completely editing out scenes of this great strategist Tina Wesson.

Hatch didn't quite have the social skills to pull off an alliance when he came back. He's a smart guy, but he was eaten alive his second time around. Every past Survivor star has a target on their back when they come back. Boston Rob had a huge target. Rob's a smooth talker and was able to get past it. But, Hatch's real weakness was his limitations socially. Hatch was a bit isolated and really wasn't able to form attachments with people. He didn't even really do that in his first season either, but at that time the players were more naive.

I understand your dislike of Russell, but to completely discount his skills is really letting the emotions take over. Most players have flaws, but there's no denying that Russell was able to demonstrate his strategic skills in two separate seasons. Even, Probst has stated that Russell's a great player and has shown that he's a great strategist and intimidator.

"RE: Who are the 5 greatest players to ever play this game?"
Posted by michel on 08-26-13 at 09:49 AM
LAST EDITED ON 08-26-13 AT 10:02 AM (EST)

Excuse me but those are facts as told by the players. Those interviews are more than 10 years old now so I won't waste my time looking them up for you but they told us the real story. The only one I have is the one from Mitchell which was actually the key to it all:


The editors did want to show Tina as simply the "nice mom" instead of the mastermind because of the critics that this game was only meant for evil people to win.

I don't dismiss all of Russell's skills: He is great at sabotage and at intimidating but he doesn't understand the game of Survivor.

There is no denying that Galu destroyed Galu. There was nothing russell could have done if they had simply decided to pagong all of Foa Foa. The only Foa Foa that could have stayed alive was, you guessed it! Natalie.

Since you bring up RussHell's second season, he was dead meat if Tyson hadn't been so stupid. Anyway, HvV was more about production interference than a real game. We know for a fact that the Parvati-Russell alliance was arranged before the show by a staff member and there is strong evidence that more went on including during the vote that eliminated Tyson. Amanda also hinted at things done to favor Russell and Parvati.

As for what Probst says, that is laughable considering his main job is to promote the show. It's like you telling me that this car is the best in the world because the commercial told you so.

"Every past Survivor star has a target on their back when they come back. Boston Rob had a huge target"

There was a different dynamic at play when the first A$$ aired. Like I wrote Lex, Jenna, Boston Rob and others were jealous of the stardom that had escaped them. By season 21, ex-Survivor players weren't big deals anymore. The show wasn't the 50 million viewers blockbuster that changed television anymore. It had become an ordinary program. Boston Rob had a target on his back but production made sure it would be a minority of players who would go after him. The majority were young, impressionable people who rushed to line up with him. Sheep led to slaughter.

"RE: Who are the 5 greatest players to ever play this game?"
Posted by UndercoverMonk on 08-28-13 at 08:02 PM
I'm not the biggest tina fan but you can not take what happened on allstars as proof tina and Richard sucked.

Lets look at who left early. Tina (winner). Richard (winner). Rob C. (viewed at the time as the smartest player ever) Colby( would hav won if he hadn't taken Tina) Ethan (winner). Do you think these people that made it 30+ days just got dumb or cocky no they were targeted. The final 4 of all stars finishe 8th, 8th, 10th, and 6th respectively. It they were all such games why did not one of them finish in the top 5 of their original seasons. Rob played great but only because he was'nt a threat. in HvV he was a threat again and got voted out quick. Tina is legit good at this game and while she is not in my top 5 do not disrepect her. She could end up schooling these youngsters if she isnt voted out as a challenge liability.

My personal top 5:
1. Richard Hatch
2. Rob C. (give him another shot and he will own face)
3. Parvati (Im not a huge fan but you have to respect two finals)
4. Brian Heidik (re-watch Thailand...just do it.)
5. Rob Mariano (sure he got 4 chances but cmon dude's the robfather)

I probably should put Sandra up there but I just can't. her strategy is great and obviously will win her the game but I almost feel her two wins were votes against Lil and Russel/Parvati. Can not wait for BvW

"RE: Who are the 5 greatest players to ever play this game?"
Posted by JoeGazillionaire on 12-16-13 at 02:48 AM
>LAST EDITED ON 08-26-13
>AT 10:02AM (EST)

>Excuse me but those are facts
>as told by the players.
>Those interviews are more than
>10 years old now so
>I won't waste my time
>looking them up for you
>but they told us the
>real story. The only one
>I have is the one
>from Mitchell which was actually
>the key to it all:
>The editors did want to show
>Tina as simply the "nice
>mom" instead of the mastermind
>because of the critics that
>this game was only meant
>for evil people to win.
>I don't dismiss all of Russell's
>skills: He is great at
>sabotage and at intimidating but
>he doesn't understand the game
>of Survivor.
>There is no denying that Galu
>destroyed Galu. There was nothing
>russell could have done if
>they had simply decided to
>pagong all of Foa Foa.
> The only Foa Foa
>that could have stayed alive
>was, you guessed it! Natalie.
>Since you bring up RussHell's second
>season, he was dead meat
>if Tyson hadn't been so
>stupid. Anyway, HvV was more
>about production interference than a
>real game. We know for
>a fact that the Parvati-Russell
>alliance was arranged before the
>show by a staff member
>and there is strong evidence
>that more went on including
>during the vote that eliminated
>Tyson. Amanda also hinted at
>things done to favor Russell
>and Parvati.
>As for what Probst says, that
>is laughable considering his main
>job is to promote the
>show. It's like you telling
>me that this car is
>the best in the world
>because the commercial told you
>"Every past Survivor star has a
>target on their back when
>they come back. Boston Rob
>had a huge target"

>There was a different dynamic at
>play when the first A$$
>aired. Like I wrote Lex,
>Jenna, Boston Rob and others
>were jealous of the stardom
>that had escaped them. By
>season 21, ex-Survivor players weren't
>big deals anymore. The show
>wasn't the 50 million viewers
>blockbuster that changed television anymore.
>It had become an ordinary
>program. Boston Rob had a
>target on his back but
>production made sure it would
>be a minority of players
>who would go after him.
>The majority were young, impressionable
>people who rushed to line
>up with him. Sheep
>led to slaughter.

I have already pointed out to you many times that you used community board postings as your "facts" and then you go and link me back to the same community board posting. Sorry, community board postings are not "facts."

Also, I do not know what your point is about Jeff Probst. He's in the unique position to be able to see behind the scenes and watch every part of a player's game. He has been repeatedly quoted as saying that Russell is a great player. Jeff has been blunt about his opinions about the players in the game...it doesn't promote the show by saying anything against his own opinion. Your dismissal of Russell's game, in my opinion, is based more on your emotional dislike of him than any objective analysis of his game. I don't like him or many of the great players either, but I'm not going to say that Boston Rob, Parvati or Russell are not good players based on my emotions.

"RE: Who are the 5 greatest players to ever play this game?"
Posted by JoeGazillionaire on 12-16-13 at 03:11 AM
I wonder which players could match Ozzy in challenges... Grant looked pretty darn athletic, especially those involving wide receiver skills.