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"S25 Philippines Episode 11 Love / Loathe List"

Posted by SpotTheDiffference on 11-30-12 at 02:35 AM
Determining my rankings for this episode was rather difficult since I didn’t find anyone to be particularly unlikeable. I have to say though—I didn’t realize they were auctioning fastfood items until today (Dunkin’ Donuts for Malcolm and what looks like Jollibee chicken for Jonathan).

1. Abi (6, 15, 15, 14, 11, 9, 8, 9, 8, 6)
Abi is still an insufferable maggot around camp, but without her, this entire episode would have been quite predictable. Saving up for the advantage? Good. Lying about a fourth immunity idol? Brilliant. Winning immunity and throwing a wrench into the others’ plans? All in all, a great episode for her.

2. Malcolm (5, 5, 3, 1, 1, 4, 4, 3, 5, 2)
He’s likeable, he’s strategic, and he’s athletic. On paper, Malcolm probably has the best chance of winning if he makes the F3. Unfortunately for him, he’s also in an alliance with people who are unpredictable and/or aren’t entirely unwilling to shake up the game for their own benefit. If he makes the F3, I believe he gets Pete, Abi, and Artis by default.

3. Michael (4, 3, 6, 12, 8, 8, 7, 6, 2, 1)
Mike’s edit has certainly switched since the merge, from being almost completely invisible to almost all-out strategy. I’m starting to think he could win the game, even if there are already two, likely three votes that won’t go his way (Artis, Pete, and Abi) if he makes the F3.

4. Denise (1, 2, 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 4, 4, 7)
Denise tells us about how Abi is, “the same negative, grumpy Abi”, but the past few episodes, what I’ve noted is a negative, grumpy Denise. Still, she has played a great strategic, if UTR game, by setting herself in a good position up until the F4.

5. Carter (15, 9, 14, 10, 10, 10, 6, 7, 6, 5)
What Carter has going for him is that he’s a very good choice, along with Abi, to go to the F3 with. I don’t see him being able to break up Malcolm/Michael/Lisa/Denise though, making me think that even if he reaches the top 5 and therefore becomes a powerful swing vote, his only hope to secure an F3 spot is winning immunities. He’s already won a couple, so I’m not counting him out just yet. Pretty generous of him too to trade his auction prize for the rice and beans, but I don’t give him credit for the veal shanks, since that was a tribal prize to begin with.

6. Lisa (3, 14, 10, 7, 3, 3, 3, 1, 3, 3)
I have no idea if Lisa is playing a loyal game or a wishy-washy one. Somehow, we always see her thinking of flipping over to one side or the other, but she never really ends up doing so.

Jonathan (10, 6, 5, 5, 6, 1, 1, 2, 1, 4)
Pete (11, 11, 8, 3, 7, 7, 5, 5, 7)
Artis (16, 10, 11, 6, 9, 11, 9, 8)
Jeff (7, 4, 4, 4, 5, 5, 10)
RC (2, 1, 2, 8, 4, 6)
Katie (14, 12, 13, 13, 12)
Sarah (8, 13, 12, 11)
Dana (12, 8, 7, 9)
Russell (17, 16, 9)
Angie (9, 7)
Roxanne (13)

Table of contents

Messages in this discussion
Posted by dabo on 11-30-12 at 03:02 AM
I'm still working on my game rankings for this week, BTWG getting this one started. I am notoreously slow at it, this is much better.

Thank you.

"RE: Kudos"
Posted by SpotTheDiffference on 11-30-12 at 03:35 AM
No worries, dabo. Starting the thread at least forces me to justify my rankings through a writeup, which I didn't really do before. I do appreciate the input of everyone posting, and would love hearing from more people. I don't really like defending my opinions, but I love reading what everyone else has to say.

"RE: Kudos"
Posted by michel on 12-02-12 at 12:55 PM
LAST EDITED ON 12-02-12 AT 01:31 PM (EST)

"I don't really like defending my opinions"

I can respect that but putting Abi #1 makes it hard!

But talking about the auction, do you remember that Austalia auction where two of the "good" items were four french fries and a few doritos! Quite a contrast to what was offered this time. Boring auction, really.

"RE: Kudos"
Posted by SpotTheDiffference on 12-02-12 at 01:43 PM
Hey, you're the one who's been wondering why people weren't giving Abi her due credit.

I agree--that was a pretty boring auction. No dud items, and apart from Abi, everyone seemed to be just throwing out money.

What I find interesting though is that we've had three straight episodes that are character-centric. We had an episode that centered around Lisa and Jonathan, an episode about Mike, and now one featuring Abi. With the promos for next week, I would think that it's going to be a Malcolm episode. This could be something for the editing thread though.

"RE: S25 Philippines Episode 11 Love / Loathe List"
Posted by garyc on 11-30-12 at 03:35 AM
1. Malcolm: What's not to like.

2. Michael: Appears to have controlled who goes home for most of the second half of the game.

3. Denise: I don't find her Abi criticisms harsh. If Abi's been this annoying in what they show in the limited TV time available, how much worse must she be to be around all the time.

4. Carter: Still too invisible, and did not win an immunity his ally Jonathan needed to stay in the game.

5. Abi: Comes across as an overgrown 10 year old. Also got too much of an IC advantage but good for her in deciding to compete rather than eat.

6. Lisa: Way too much whining that is coming across to me as a hypocritical way of trying to play the game without acknowledging that she is playing it; e.g. the way she didn't flip on Pete/Abi until Skupin ensured they had lost the numbers, and now wouldn't vote with Penner despite an apparent close relation with him and having told Mike she trusts Penner more than Malcolm or Denise.

Gone Penner: Too reliant on a lone wolf strategizing type of game when trusting the relationship he had made with Lisa enough to enter a final four alliance with her would likely have saved him; at least for now. Still fun to watch play though.

"RE: S25 Philippines Episode 11 Love / Loathe List"
Posted by michel on 12-02-12 at 01:19 PM
LAST EDITED ON 12-02-12 AT 01:25 PM (EST)

1- Mike: He played Prisonner's Dilemma with Penner, retaliating when Jonathan refused to cooperate. Now, if he has a plan to make sure he isn't giving his money to Malcolm...

2- Malcolm: He's a very nice guy, a good athlete, he has an idol in pocket and a shield in Carter so this game should be his. The only cloud I see is the he "broke up" to early with his "girlfriend". Sure, Abi is obnoxious but he should have gone along with her since she may hold the winning lottery ticket.

3- Abi: I laughed out loud when she came down that fireman's pole to win immunity. It was perfect on so many levels. Partly because when Estee asked what type of challenge Abi could win, I immediately thought "Pole Dancing" but mostly because it made Denise want to throw up.

4- Denise: Talking about hypocrisy, I am curious to see what Dabo will say about Denise who, one second, wants to throw up because Abi won immunity and, the next, she is applauding her success. That's hypocrisy. And, the last thing I would want to discuss with her is sex. Not good for a sex therapist!

5- Carter: I hate players that don't give us anything. As a character, he completely missed his chance. It is a TV show so you have to play the game AND the cameras.

6- Lisa: I hate even more those that become one-note bores on TV. She is playing a game so either play or leave.

Booted - Jonathan: One of the best characters ever but one of the dumbest players. Look at his résumé:

In CI: He mutinied because he was sure Adam has the idol. When Yul showed him the idol, he flipped again without even trying to get Raro to vote for someone else than Yul. He became hated by everyone, making it impossible for him to win.

In FvF: He immediately split the tribe in two by targeting Parvati. That would have proven fatal when he wound up on Airai with her and James. Furthermore, he ostracized Cirie when he and Yau Man weren't honest with her.

He showed he didn't understand the game when he refused a F3 deal. That was inexcusable no matter how he spins it. BTW, his words about the auction tells us he never studied the game which, for someone that was lucky enough to play three times is also inexcusable.

Ils sont fous, ces Romains!

"RE: S25 Philippines Episode 11 Love / Loathe List"
Posted by dabo on 12-05-12 at 02:46 AM
01. Malcolm (2). Playing smart, paying attention to all that goes on around him. Much as I hated losing Penner, Abi winning II gave Malcolm the opportunity to remove the biggest threat to win the game, he played it just right.

02. Michael (1). Finally got his game in gear last episode and played the numbers this episode to ensure himself getting as far as possible in the game, a respectable game.

03. Denise (3). Stepped back this time to allow the Abi to aim at others, but she called the shots in the opening confessional, her game is running smoothly at this point.

04. Carter (6). For a player with no game and no voice, at least he does respectably in challenges. It was a stand-up thing he did trading his treats for beans and rice for the entire tribe, so a mini salute and a bump up the list.

05. Abi (7). At least it is entertaining (to me anyway) that she has her own game in the works now and is giving it everything she's got. She's still doomed to lose, but at least all-out Abi isn't the same annoying clueless volatile idiot ally from hell Abi from previous episodes.

06. Lisa (5). If I thought for one second that Lisa clueing in Jonathan the he was the boot and needed to work his magic, that that was a clearly thought out strategic jury management move on her part, she wouldn't be this low on this list. She's this low on the list because I'm bored with this emotional wreck.

Good-bye, Jonathan (4). This season will probably go downhill now that Penner and his hat, as inseperable as Lex and his gut, are no longer in the running. But I did love his fabulous run this season, it was well worth watching, he was clearly the best player out there and is my hope for winner of the fan favorite vote.

"RE: S25 Philippines Episode 11 Love / Loathe List"
Posted by michel on 12-05-12 at 06:57 PM
The "best player" is always the one with the most options, the most friends or the most alliances. Penner didn't really have anything solid in Kalabaw or in Dangrayne so he was a bad player.

"RE: S25 Philippines Episode 11 Love / Loathe List"
Posted by dabo on 12-07-12 at 12:31 PM
If you are in position to play that way, of course. But Jonathan played a great come from behind the 8-ball game from day 1, got things in order after much perseverance, and had absolute respect from all the members of the jury and the remaining players in the game. His one big mistake wasn't closing an option, it was leaving Lisa dangling when she needed that security, so that she closed the option he had left open and dangling.

And despite the loved ones visit this season did go downhill in the next episode.

"RE: S25 Philippines Episode 11 Love / Loathe List"
Posted by michel on 12-07-12 at 04:59 PM
His one big mistake proves he's a bad player though. And what about all his other mistakes in previous seasons?

Respect from the jury is important but you can't be seen as actively seeking their votes like he did when he voted against Abi. If Penner had been playing the game instead of playing for respect, he wouldn't have been seen as a bigger threat than Carter.

"RE: S25 Philippines Episode 11 Love / Loathe List"
Posted by dabo on 12-07-12 at 05:52 PM
It proves no such thing. First of all, each season of Survivor is different, the mix of characters is different, so what works in one season might fail in another season. I was talking about this season, though, and with the self-creating reality this season of the deserving players mantra, Penner was the one player who would have won no question about it had he made it to FTC. He still would have had his work cut out for him getting to FTC, but he was clearly the best player for this season. With him gone it is now a legitimate question which of the remaining deserving players will walk home with the title.

"RE: S25 Philippines Episode 11 Love / Loathe List"
Posted by michel on 12-07-12 at 06:30 PM
Of course it proves he was a bad player. Everyone cringed when they heard him refusing an alliance offer. That can never be done. Not on day 1 and certainly not at F7! It was as dumb as Alex Bell telling Cesternino that he'd vote him out at F4.

But continue arguing the point because I'm laughing over here! If he was the best player for this season, what's he doin' on the jury? The "Best" player HAS to be in the game still. No matter which season, the best player NEVER gets the boot at F7.

"RE: S25 Philippines Episode 11 Love / Loathe List"
Posted by dabo on 12-08-12 at 00:22 AM
Go ahead, laugh all you want, I know I'm right and you can't do anything about it.

Self-created realities can have a big effect during a season of Survivor. Jonathan was in a sweet spot, he had really nothing at all to do with creating that deserving mantra, he just satisfied the ideal with his game.

Ah well, sometimes players lose because they make more commitments than they can keep, this time Penner lost because he didn't.

Why did Coach lose to Sophie? In part it was because of Coach's own honor and integrity mantra, the self-created reality of that season, but in the end Coach lost crucial jury votes because he was seen as having not lived up to his own mantra.

"RE: S25 Philippines Episode 11 Love / Loathe List"
Posted by michel on 12-08-12 at 01:44 AM
Coach is one of the worse players ever so you'd better find another example to make a credible argument.

Jonathan had a hell of a lot to do to win this season. First and foremost, he needed to understand the motives of the other players. That's always key. Next, he should have known that it's useless to trust other people, that what you need is for them to trust you. He put his trust in people who had nothing to do with him. Dumb, dumb, dumb.

"RE: S25 Philippines Episode 11 Love / Loathe List"
Posted by dabo on 12-08-12 at 03:41 AM
Well, first, I agree with you about Bencoach, he was always an indulgent eccentric and never truly understood the game. But the only reason I brought up his last season was to demonstrate the point of a self-created reality in a particular season influencing the outcome of that season.

Every iteraton of Survivor is different, and that is in part why it remains fascinating.

And this season Jonathan totally would have won but had he made it to FTC. Because he was the best one out there.

Anyway, deny it as much as you want, you can't prove me wrong, so there, I know I am right, I win.

"RE: S25 Philippines Episode 11 Love / Loathe List"
Posted by michel on 12-08-12 at 09:49 PM
There is an argument that many endorse: The best player is the winner.

It's not easy to argue against results. The only way I'd say the winner isn't the best player is if the winner was incredibly lucky to see a rival make a stupid mistake. If producers intervene too much then again I would wonder if the winner was truly the best.

But here, Penner made the mistake himself. It wasn't bad luck, it was his own misunderstanding of the game's strategy. Even if he could have won the jury vote, his game was so awful that he had no chance of making it to the end.

It's even stranger that you admit that each season is completely different. If they are, if there cannot be an overall strategy that can lead you to victory, then you practically have to say that the winner is the best player for that season. Not the F7 boot.

My position is that, while the game changes each season with new players, there are some basic strategy points that HAVE to be followed. Tina, Brian, Tom, Danni, Earl, Todd and Kim followed those points so they are some of the best players ever. Penner, in his 3 tries, actually went against those points. So, while he is very entertaining, he is a dumb player.

"RE: S25 Philippines Episode 11 Love / Loathe List"
Posted by dabo on 12-09-12 at 01:05 AM
LAST EDITED ON 12-09-12 AT 01:05 AM (EST)

I don't subscribe to the theory that the best player is the winner, because for one thing really really good players (best or not) get targetted for that very reason. Goats often get to FTC as well simply because they are goats.

Did the best player win in Amazon? The F2 were a lamb and a goat, the best player was sitting on the jury.

In any event, I like the players who are actually playing the game, even some of the ones who have been bad at it but at least they tried, over the people who just show up to rob as much camera time as possible and have Survivor on their resume.

But hey, argue with me all you want about my opinion. I am firmly of the self-consensus that yes indeed my opinion actually is my opinion and there is nothing you can do about it. But at least this is good for a laugh, and the laugh is mutual.

"RE: S25 Philippines Episode 11 Love / Loathe List"
Posted by michel on 12-09-12 at 12:56 PM
The problem with your opinion is that it shows you don't know what makes a good player.

The best player may not have won Amazon but he finished 3rd, not 7th!

The best player this season is obviously Malcolm even if he made a mistake with Pete. He understand the game much more than Penner. I'd even rate Denise and Mike (mostly for his S2 showing) over Penner.

"RE: S25 Philippines Episode 11 Love / Loathe List"
Posted by dabo on 12-10-12 at 02:38 AM
Of course I know what makes a good player, and you saying that I don't doesn't create a reality that I don't. I'll go you one further: You acting like you are entitled to be the one person whose opinion is the only opinion that matters doesn't make that a reality either. I respect that you think highly of yourself, I wouldn't expect otherwise, so don't take that the wrong way.

Anyway, I don't place any merit on finishing order, losing is losing no matter when they lose. We've seen some pretty darn good players lose simply because they got to the merge and they were down in numbers and the Pagonging commenced.

Jonathan got himself into a both great and extremely dangerous position in this edition of the game, the player who wins the game if he gets to FTC. He did it while also digging himself out of a hole he landed in on day 1 of the game, playing from behind the 8ball.

We've seen others get themselves there over the years, where they win if they get to FTC, and some have won and some have lost. It's an impressive accomplishment either way.

Kim was there. The only threats to her game were if her alliance rebelled to get her out, or if Troyzan had gone on an impressive winning streak to get himself to FTC.

Cirie got herself there twice.

Boston Rob got himself there the fourth time out, though he did it by eliminating the other players in his tribe with their heads in the game until he had an alliance of lambs and a goat. The only threats to his game, once the Pagonging commenced, were (again) a rebellion or if (horrible twist) Redemption Island sent a strong player back into the game who (again) could get him/herself to FTC with a string of immunities.

Calamity Jane in Nicaragua perhaps got herself there, though it was hard to say per the edit whether that was actually a true self-fulfilling reality. She seemed to think so, and a couple other players kind of acted like she had. And she was a formidable player in some respects, well prepared for the rigors of the game and weathering the weather and stuff. But I wouldn't put her in a category of greats, though not because she thought so highly of herself. She just never had a solid alliance in the game, completely misunderstood some crucial aspects of Survivor.

"RE: S25 Philippines Episode 11 Love / Loathe List"
Posted by michel on 12-10-12 at 07:02 PM
LAST EDITED ON 12-10-12 AT 07:08 PM (EST)

I don't think my opinion is the only one that matters but, on the subject of Survivor strategy, I've exchanged with many people including some that went on the show so I do have an idea on the best course of action.

Overcoming a pagonging situation is not easy but it isn't impossible and this doesn't even apply to Jonathan in this iteration of the game.

I'll use that situation though to say that some players have won despite entering the merge down in numbers. They all had one thing in common: They took every opportunity to make new bonds instead of making enemies.

I don't know how Danni managed to get production's agreement for her birthday party but that was a stroke of genius.
Chris wouldn't have won if he hadn't made Final 2 deals with Julie and Twila when they were on Lopevi.
JT managed to charm everyone.
Natalie became friends with most of Galu.

The first one to show us the importance of making friends was Tina. She was in Jerri's five person alliance from the start but she still was very close to Mad Dog and Keith. After the merge, she made new bonds with Lis and Rodger.

More recently, Kim was able to be friends with everyone. Not just her women's alliance or Troyzan and Jay but also Colton, Monica, Christina and even Michael. There would have been very few rearrangements of tribes that would have put her in danger.

These people (and I'll add Brian, Tom, Danni, Yul, Earl and Todd) were unifiers: They tried to work with everyone on their tribe. They didn't create divisions until it was time to vote someone out and then, more often than not, they decided who went. All played the game with an appearance of calm, of composure: The others saw they had a plan and that they weren't affected by the conditions. Needing security, the others joined in.

Jonathan is a divider. We learned that from his title quote in his very first episode: "I can forgive her but I don't have to because she screwed with my chickens." Right there and then, we were introduced to a marvelously entertaining but polarizing player.

It continued when he argued with Adam about the shelter and it culminated when, on an impulse, he mutinied. Dumb Player.

Micronesia was more of the same when, in episode 1 he said: “I think we should take Parvati out first. Parvati is a much bigger threat as a social player than Ozzy is..."
That, right there, created an unnecessary fracture in Malakal and his allies, Yau Man, Ami and Eliza never recovered.

This season, he should have known that there'd be an anti-returning player sentiment. It came up the first time returnees played with newbies when the new players said that BJ and Steph didn't deserve a second chance. Penner should have gathered his tribe on Day 1 and told them that they needed to play as a unit: Kalabaw first. Coach thought of it and, strangely, that sort of message could have worked on Kent.

I laughed when you wrote this about Jane: "She just never had a solid alliance in the game, completely misunderstood some crucial aspects of Survivor." I laughed because that is exactly my reproach of Penner's game.

"RE: S25 Philippines Episode 11 Love / Loathe List"
Posted by dabo on 12-13-12 at 10:50 PM
But Jonathan did build alliances this time, first in Kalabaw, then in Dangrayne.

Anyway, thanks for keeping this fight going long enough for me to remind the lurking fight followers:

VOTE JONATHAN PENNER FAN FAVORITE! Or season favorite or whatever they're calling it. Malcolm will probably win if you don't! And he did give us some of the best episodes this season. Heck, he's even the bright spot at the Ponderosa.

"RE: S25 Philippines Episode 11 Love / Loathe List"
Posted by michel on 12-14-12 at 05:52 PM
Colton had an alliance but he was one of the worst dividers ever. It's so much more than just having an alliance...