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"S21 Love/Loathe List Ep5"
Posted by Aruba on 10-16-10 at 06:34 AM
Iltarion is right...this has the early makings for a sucky season. The tribal switch may be a temporary band-aid, although I don't think it will save the season. Too bad because Old vs. Young is a great concept, but got ruined with subpar casting.

MARTY - No, he's not my #1 because I'm in love with the guy. Actually I'm not that fond of him personally. But the guy's got game. New tribe, new camp, and he's still a key player among his group. Hands down the best narrator this season. And he's 100% correct...Jane would've told everyone about the HII, so it was smart they hear it from Marty himself.

ALINA - Monster move for this young castaway. IMO the focus of this episode. Burying the hatchet with NaOnka was the prudent thing to do. Adapted well with the tribal switch. And was on the money with her responses at TC. Describing NaOnka like being on her period everyday was the quote of the show.

CHASE - I believe his consoling NaOnka was genuine. Another example of his ability to bond with others. No doubt in my mind he has the personality, charisma, and social interaction to advance far in the game. JT did. Now whether Chase has the IC prowess in his endgame that JT possessed will determine his ultimate fate.

BRENDA - A loser with the tribal switch. Although you wouldn't know by her initial excitement, drawing the yellow stone as captain was insult to injury. If not a captain, I believe Holly chooses her over Alina and Brenda gets to stick with Chase and NaOnka. I sensed a weeeeee bit of jealosy over the attention Marty was getting. I'll assume she didn't know before her confessional when calling Marty stupid for revealing the HII that all of the original Espada already knew he had it, so I'll give her a pass. In any event, she's in NO position to question anyone's decision pertaining to the HII when she darn near placed it in the hands of NaOnka! But if she can hold her tongue for the next couple episodes, I still think she's a shoo-in to make the merge.

"FABIO" - Has a newly given nickname ever been used in a castaway's opening credits??? LMAO! If they ever have another "Non-Season" and cast Amanda for the fourth time, I wanna see "Doe-Eyes" on the screen! Key tosses in the La Flor IC win. I know previews tend to be misdirections, but if Fabio becomes Marty's B!tch in the game I'm going to laugh my a$$ off all season.

BENRY - The man speaks!...or at least we now get to hear him. If I could just get by the goofy name, he may grow on me. He appears to have all the ingredients to be a complete player and advance far in the game.

KELLY B. - My love affair with the underdog role is growing thin. It's great that fate separated her from NaOnka, but she also lost Alina in the process. The girl needs to step it up and become more proactive in the game.

JILL - She stays with Marty, but not sure that's a good thing for her. With Jane flipping to the youngsters and Marty in possession of the HII, Jill is a likely casualty should La Flor lose an IC.

IVE - Last week it was a suspicion; now I'm pretty convinced there was a secret alliance between Ive and Marty. The way Ive kept looking over at Marty after tribal switch was like a mom sending her kid off to college knowing she probably won't see him for the next few months. I'll state the obvious...If Espada loses another IC, Ive is toast.

MATT - A couple more Sash-quatch sightings this episode. If the original La Flor 5-person alliance can make it to the merge unscathed, I'm sure we'll see a lot more of Matt. But for right now he's a non-factor.

HOLLY/JANE - I'm grouping these two together because they became the Powerball Megamillion Sweepstake winners with the tribal switch. I'll never rank a player high for becoming a swing vote primarily out of circumstance. But both flipping to the youngsters in their respective tribes guaranteed one thing in my mind--this season's winner will be an under-30 castaway.

NAONKA - Only reason she crawls out of last place is for admitting the obvious that her divorce was probably her fault. Actually I was thinking of moving her up a little higher during the beginning of the episode, but crumbling from the adverse conditions and talking about quitting gives her no chance of any upward movement. "Russell's Daughter???" HA! In Samoa Russell stood shirtless in the middle of a torrential storm while whinny Jaison doubled over in agony and Mick curled up cowaring in a tree. She's more like Oster's daughter. I believe one of our posters may be looking into the wrong gene pool or may have picked up the wrong lab test results.

Usually I personally dislike players ranked this low on my list at this point of the season...but that's not the case with these two:

DAN - Forget the previews...as physically tough as it is for Dan, I don't see him bailing out. If I am correct, I give him credit for that. But he simply has nothing to offer to the show.

PURPLE KELLY - Can't say anything bad about her because I can't say anything at all. I'm completely baffled why a player who looks the best this season in a bikini has been so invisible for FIVE episodes. I guess at some point this season it will make sense, but for right now it's ridiculous so gotta put her here this week.

BOOTED

TYRONE -I'm sure he'll point to the tribal switch instrumetal for his exit, but the truth be told, it was Tyrone who booted Tyrone. I'm not sure it was as much a blindside as Jeff indicated at TC. The way he was polishing off those chicken parts, one could argue he may have been treating that as his "Last Supper."

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Messages in this discussion
"RE: S21 Love/Loathe List Ep5"
Posted by iltarion on 10-16-10 at 04:01 PM
LAST EDITED ON 10-16-10 AT 04:09 PM (EST)

This season seems to quickly be turning into the Demise of Espada. Already kicking their tail pre-switch, the switch seems to only have exacerbated the butt-whooping La Flor is handing Espada.

1. Marty - Somewhat pathetic that for all his brains he didn't see a tribal switch coming. Did he really think the tribes were going to remain Old vs. Young til merge? Doesn't lose his spot though because no one else was any brighter. He still has the best confessionals and is the most proactive player in the game. He is part of the minority on La Flor and the lone ex-Espada man; therefore, playing it quiet and trying to avoid the target being on his back would have been an act of futility. Considering the target is fully on his back anyway, he might as well continue to play boldly.

2. Alina - I agree with Aruba that she jumps Brenda here. A switch over to the Espada crowd would have made sense, but Holly pretty much took that decision from her. She is firmly in the majority now and seemingly liked by everyone.

3. Brenda- One of the sad truths that Survivor has consistently supported is that YOUNG = LAZY. So, yeah, La Flor had a way of doing things, as in laying around and hoping the crew took care of you. Also, Marty was 100% right that Jane would have told La Flor that Marty has the HII anyway. By telling everyone himself, he makes a blindside harder to execute. Brenda is still in a great spot though. Some arrogance might be starting to leak out, probably brought on by Marty.

4. Fabio - Key to La Flor's win in the IC, and based off the make-up of the new tribes, he will continue to be a crucial player for La Flor. Also an entertaining guy in no immediate danger.

5. Kelly B - The tribal switch was great for her, but it quickly became more Alina's story than hers, which is a bad sign for her. She has to be relieved though to still be in a La Flor majority while NayBonkers ends up on the other tribe.

6. Jill - Could be a good or a bad thing that Marty is still with her. Might be the first target if La Flor loses and doesn't have the guts to go after Marty.

7. Yve - I like her. Nothing to do with game play.

8. Chase - Great story about the death of his father. Terrible situation and person to waste it on though. Got no input on the impact of the switch, which is a bad sign.

9. Benry - Actually got to say something and seems to be a good guy. Being paired with Chase would seem to give Espada the heavy challenge advantage.

10. Kelly Purple - Wrong person for us to not get to see, another problem with this season so far.

11. Matt - Sash, Smash, Stash, Slash- his story is worthy of none of these.

12. Dan - All but disappeared, which was good for him.

13. Jane - Just a batty lady. Very annoying to me, frankly.

14. Holly - Yeah, I'm sure the young ins will all want their momma to tag along. Certifiable.

15. NayBonkers - Proved coming out of South Central doesn't make you tough. A less clothed Alina sat next to her, seemingly unaffected, while Nay huddled in the shelter, shivering and whining like a baby. She was never going anywhere though. Obviously, there is no other story of interest to tell this season so the editing had to build her up as a villian and then tease us with her quitting to keep us interested.

pink-slipped...

Wendy - Best forgotten
Shannon - NYC lover
Jimmy J - Maybe give college Survivor a try.
Jimmy T - He's got skillz.
Tyrone - The editing played it up like his own actions led to his boot. Maybe. Maybe it was just the fact that he was the clear target on the old Espada. Tell me Espada loses the IC, and I would have told you Tyrone is gone even if he eats no chicken and never opens his mouth.


>

"RE: S21 Love/Loathe List Ep5"
Posted by michel on 10-16-10 at 05:23 PM
Well, surprise, surprise, I disagree 100% with Iltarion and Aruba: This is a very fun season. Not since Amazon has a tribal switch brought on so interestingly unpredictable dynamics.

Here is my list and a few "appreciations" of my fellow posters' views of these players.

1-Alina: Well, at least we agree on one good story!!

Alina always had a role in this story and, after being the narrator of the KB/Nay fight she became the narrator of New Espada. More importantly, after being an underdog, she finally found herself on the right side of the numbers and we have always seen her as a savvy player. It would be a perfect ending if, as Na’Onka’s target at the beginning of the episode, her new alliance with Holly, one of Marty’s targets, enabled her to make it to the end.

2- Brenda: She didn’t lose her story after the switch which bodes well for her. The new LaFlor line-up tells us there could be some very explosive TCs. I believe Brenda will win the battle of manipulators against Marty because Marty IS arrogant but, in these post-Russell days, who knows what the editors want us to think of cocky arrogance? We do know that, except for Parvati, Survivor hasn’t been kind to female puppet-masters with sweet smiles.

Funny that Iltarion blamed her for LaFlor being lazy in his eyes. We know that everyone looked at Marty with strange looks so everyone had to say something in interview. We know that their shelter was better built than Espada's even before the tarp so what if they chill instead of continually rebuilding their shelter like we know Espada did for the first 5 days?! I'd say LaFlor's way was the better way and results point to that.

3- Holly: She started the episode upset at her tribe’s choice and conscious that things needed to change. Did they ever! By the end of the episode, Holly was telling us she saw herself going further in the game by aligning with the kids. When we know how often switches happen on Survivor, I'm surprised that Aruba still considers them like "the Powerball Megamillion Sweepstake". Swaps are prepared in advance by the smart players and Holly used her interactions at challenges to pick her team.

It’s interesting to see that other players have had breakdowns. We saw Jimmy J having a tough time on day 1, Jimmy T said this game had him beat after 3 days, Jill said she didn’t know if she could last 28 more days, Na’Onka wanted to quit and the previews let us see that Danny wants to pack it in. All this tells me that Holly’s breakdown has been put in perspective: Many had moments of weakness.

As for her story, we had that animal imagery where Jimmy T told Holly to be like the pelican, to wait and look for the right moment to strike. Most of the cameras visits to the laFlor camp were preceded by images of a group of Pelicans. It didn’t take long for Holly, the observant pelican, to team up with the youngsters from LaFlor. We could say that they were like birds of a feather! Now that Holly has found the courage to stand up to the intimidating Tyrone, she probably can stand up to anything on her path.

4-Jane: I laughed when Jane called Marty and Jill “ticks”. Jane has been repeatedly shown as an enthusiastic player: We see her joyful expressions when Jeff asks if the reward is worth playing for and we see her happy dances when she wins. Batty? No, a hard-working farmer, a smart woman who is having fun in this game.

Episode 1 was titled Young at Heart and no one has been more deserving of that title than Jane. If she makes it to the end after being Marty’s target, it would be something completely whacked out!

5-Jud: He got close to Marty but he still considers himself part of the LaFlor 5. His words: “We’re the young tribe. I guess we don’t really know what we’re doing” had to please Marty to no ends. “The Dumb Blonde” and the “Puppet Master” brought back together? It has a sort of “déjà vu” feel to it but I think this was the reason for the ground work to Jud’s edit: Marty will underestimate him and will pay for it. Or Jud will swing to Marty and the whole game will change. He has a very interesting position but I guess breaking tiles is more important to my friends.

6- Kelly B: I have to laugh when I read something like: "The girl needs to step it up and become more proactive in the game." As if it was by her choice that she didn't get airtime. Like all the others, Kelly had interviews and she certainly voiced pro-active ideas but they simply wound up being cut out in editing.

This should have been her “release” episode as she broke away from her tormentor but, instead, she became insignificant. Too bad because she is a competitor and a nice person.

7- Chase: Even if he didn’t have an interview, Chase got to share a very personal and touching story.

8- Benry: Finally, we heard from Benry but this tourist’s first words were to criticize the new accommodations. He was pictured as an upset customer complaining to the hotel manager that the new room wasn’t satisfactory! Then, he took charge in eliminating Tyrone simply because he was hard to get along with. Another player who doesn't understand the need to have shields in this game. Tribal Council probably didn’t encourage his fans either when he acted too dumb to understand the game in Jeff’s eyes.

9-Marty: His arrogance and dumb play really stood out in this episode. First, we realized he had upset Jane and Holly by voting out Jimmy T without telling them. Then he told everyone on the opposing tribe that he had the idol. He was worried that Jane would have told LaFlor about it but the only reason she would have was because Marty treated her as an outsider. My friends give him credit for being dumb, I don't.

Ace was THE Svengali of Survivor and Marty is presented as this season’s Svengali. So much of the season’s outcome rests on which one of Brenda or Marty wins their confrontation that it makes for very interesting viewing.

10- Jill: We see that Jill is simply one of Marty’s minions. She lost her role of narrator as she didn’t comment on the new dynamics. She had to realize that Marty could become a target and that it would affect her own game but we only saw her standing firm by his side, as tight as two ticks.

11-Na’Onka: Like her spiritual father, we see that Na'Onka's bravado comes from her insecurities. When she feels good she has game, when she doesn't, she wants to quit. For Russell, it was when he felt he was the smartest guy around that he gloated. When someone made him realize that he was an illitterate troll with a Napoleon complex, he voted them out. Yeah, Russell didn't quit, I'll give him that but he had 50 pounds of lard and the fur of a bear to protect him so, I guess that makes him a better player than Nay!!!! The "Drama Queen's" great highs and her terrible lows at least make me laugh.

12- Purple Kelly: We continue to see her reactions once in a while but she still doesn’t have a role in this story.

13- Yve: Her only notable moments happened at the challenges when we saw her looking longingly at Marty. It told me that she is lost now that she has been separated from him. Yve seems to be the perfect example of a coattail rider: She was first attached to the hip to Jimmy J so much so that the coach was sure he could have formed an alliance with her, Holly and Jane to counter Marty’s move against him if he had known about Marty’s intent. Then Yve gravitated towards Jimmy T until she realized his insecurities. Next came her short-lived attachment to Marty and now she clung to Tyrone, not giving herself a chance to be in the loop. I'd even say she's a remora.

14- Sash: He’s the one that made the alliance with Na’Onka but we didn’t hear his thoughts at losing an ally. He’s another player who will only get the spotlight when it’s his turn to leave.

15-Dan: He lost an even more vital ally than Sash but we didn’t hear from him either. His vote against Tyrone showed that he can adapt but for how long?

Booted - Tyrone: Here is the perfect example of what not to do on Survivor: DO NOT vote out obnoxious dumb players who want to be leaders. Instead, let them sit pretty and wait for the right time to strike. Tyrone made that mistake with Jimmy T and now Benry made it with Tyrone. Of course, the big guy made other big mistakes like telling young people what to do instead of letting them express themselves and he ate too much chicken.

"RE: S21 Love/Loathe List Ep5"
Posted by iltarion on 10-16-10 at 06:41 PM
LAST EDITED ON 10-16-10 AT 07:00 PM (EST)


I watched the episode a 2nd time in preparation of doing a summary. After doing so, I'd like to add some things to my list.

First of all, let me give credit to all the ladies who rode that wheel of drowning. I certainly wouldn't have wanted to be on it. So props to Brenda, both Kellys, Alina, Yve and Holly.

Alina - She is starting to remind me of Parvati, (exact same body type without the sensual charm), which is a good thing, but I may have given her too much credit. In deciding her vote, she says - "I'm gonna have to see what everyone else wants to do." Those aren't words from someone who is too confident in herself or her position.

Regarding the tribe switch, we primarily got reaction from Alina, NayBonkers and Fabio. Holly and Jane got to talk about themselves and how THEY were affected. Benry's confessionals were centered around Tyrone's boot for the most part. Brenda's confessionals were pretty much centered around Marty.

Brenda and Sash were obviously NayBonkers' enablers. Without them on her tribe, even with the majority, Nay suddenly felt she had to make nice with Alina.

I was not blaming Brenda for the young tribe being lazy. I put that in her part because she was the one that called her tribe "chill." On 2nd viewing, Alina actually said more about La Flor being laid back than Brenda did. Brenda's comments were more ego-orientated, frustration with Marty having the guts to assert himself than anything else. Her incorrect assertion that Marty revealing the HII was dumb (it certainly was not) was probably a direct expression of frustration on her part. I'm sure she was disappointed that Marty has it.

Actually, if you watch it again, after the switch, the only time you see Marty and Jill together is when Jane pointed it out. Otherwise, you don't see it. Brenda called Marty arrogant. I didn't see anything to back her words, not this episode. She also said revealing the HII was "the dumbest thing he could do," and we know that wasn't necessarily correct either. Basically, we saw Brenda working off incorrect assumptions.

Marty wasn't the only one to vote for Jimmy T. Neither Holly nor Jane specifically mentioned Marty when expressing frustration towards the vote and their alienation.

Look up "batty old lady" in the dictionary and you'll see a picture of Jane: hard-working or excitable human being aside.

>

"RE: S21 Love/Loathe List Ep5"
Posted by michel on 10-16-10 at 08:52 PM
LAST EDITED ON 10-16-10 AT 08:55 PM (EST)

If you say: "Brenda called Marty arrogant. I didn't see anything to back her words, not this episode" can I suggest a 3rd watch then?

I'll be nice and make it easier for you. Here are examples of arrogance:

"If you can see two tribals ahead in this game, that’s pretty good and, if you can see them with the level of certainty that I have; even better"

"It would take something extraordinary, off the charts, completely whacked out to disturb my plans.”

With a touch of condescension, he called Na'onka a cancer saying her actions would not have been acceptable to him.

“It seems to me this tribe hasn’t had a lot of leadership. At Espada, I got control of that entire tribe and not necessarily by being a leader but by being a player.”

Then he said he never lied in the game and that he had the idol.

If you don't see that as arrogance, what is arrogance?

BTW, revealing to enemies that you have the idol is always dumb. Maybe if we were taking of Yul's idol it wouldn't be but here? Dumb, Dumb, Dumb.

We saw how tight Marty and Jill were when he talked about chores and she backed him up, saying days had to start at 5:30AM.


Maybe Holly and Jane didn't mention Marty specifically but who else could they mean? Certainly not potted-plant-Yve. Don't you remember Marty's flat out attack: "I have ZERO tolerance for paranoia and delusions of grandeur." Marty was responsible for JT's elimination, the two women were upset at that elimination so it means they were upset at Marty.

About Alina, you quoted: "I'm gonna have to see what everyone else wants to do."
And added: Those aren't words from someone who is too confident in herself or her position.

BUT those are the words of a good social player who doesn't want to impose her views but see what others think and maybe, just maybe, influence them towards her choice. Smart player.


Batty old lady was Jan, certainly not Jane.

"RE: S21 Love/Loathe List Ep5"
Posted by iltarion on 10-18-10 at 01:03 AM

I hope people will continue to post their lists here. I don't want this to devolve into just a back and forth, especially after I told Aruba he should know better. But I'll indulge myself at least once more.

alleged examples of arrogance:

"If you can see two tribals ahead in this game, that’s pretty good and, if you can see them with the level of certainty that I have; even better"

"It would take something extraordinary, off the charts, completely whacked out to disturb my plans.”

Arrogant statements, but Brenda would have no knowledge of them. I meant I didn't see Marty acting arrogant around HER, justifying her statements.

"With a touch of condescension, he called Na'onka a cancer saying her actions would not have been acceptable to him."

Actually, very intuitive attempt here by Marty to shake things up among the La Flor majority. Obviously, some of the La Flors, like Fabio, did NOT agree with NayBonka's actions. Marty attempted to exploit that rift by bringing it out into the open and voicing support of those, like Fabio, who did not like it but perhaps wouldn't say anything. Brenda acted defensive, the surest sign of the guilty conscience.

“It seems to me this tribe hasn’t had a lot of leadership. At Espada, I got control of that entire tribe and not necessarily by being a leader but by being a player.”

True statement.

"BTW, revealing to enemies that you have the idol is always dumb. Maybe if we were taking of Yul's idol it wouldn't be but here? Dumb, Dumb, Dumb"

This omits a HUGE fact. The fact that of course Jane would have told her allies that Marty had the HII. Marty is the OBVIOUS boot if La Flor goes to TC. So, it isn't like he is putting the target on his back; it is already fully there. Having the HII makes him a more attractive ally for someone wanting to break ranks and being up front about it makes him appear more trustworthy. In a way, his talk about NayBonka's handling of the HII set up an obvious choice to La Flor, stick with the people who approve of her actions or give me a chance instead. Marty's actions may have already gained him Fabio. If he could influence Kelly B, a possibility, or Brenda's alliance makes a Tyson type mistake in trying to vote around the HII, he could still get control. Lastly, as we saw last season, voting out someone who has the HII is more problematic when that person KNOWS that you know he has the HII. If La Flor loses that IC, they could have split their votes 3 and 3 and negated the HII. Now, if they lose Fabio, they no longer have that option.


>

"RE: S21 Love/Loathe List Ep5"
Posted by michel on 10-18-10 at 08:16 AM
LAST EDITED ON 10-18-10 AT 08:18 AM (EST)

>"Arrogant statements, but Brenda would have no knowledge of them. I meant I didn't see Marty acting arrogant around HER, justifying her statements."

Two things wrong with this:

- We have no way of knowing what Brenda heard in the 2 days they spent together since we only saw 2 minutes. She didn't hear those statements but she must have heard something or you believe she is psychic.


Hello!

- This isn't reality but Storytelling. If you hear someone being arrogant and then someone calls him arrogant then you have to believe that the "writer" (the editor) wants us to see that person as arrogant.

And true statements can be arrogant nonetheless. Anyway, I doubt that Tyrone would have agreed that Marty had total control of him.

>"This omits a HUGE fact. The fact that of course Jane would have told her allies that Marty had the HII."

But this omits the fact that Jane would only have told because Marty left her outside his little gang. He was dumb to let two outsiders hang like that.

We've seen that most of the successful use of the idol came when it was a surprise: Amanda, Russell both for himself and giving it to Parvati and then Parvati giving to Jerri. I think only Yau Man used it successfully when people knew he had it. When you know where it is it, is easier to flush. We'll see how this turns out but I would have told only the person I thought could flip like Yul did and I certainly would have consulted Jill before revealing it. Did you see her frustrations in the insider clip? Revealing the idol puts the target on HER. What if she flips on Marty?!! I doubt it but it could have happened if she was more independant.

"RE: S21 Love/Loathe List Ep5"
Posted by Survivorerist on 10-18-10 at 11:13 AM
LAST EDITED ON 10-18-10 AT 11:14 AM (EST)

I love the use of the entirely gratuitous vidcap in that post

edit: Hit enter too early

"RE: S21 Love/Loathe List Ep5"
Posted by iltarion on 10-18-10 at 11:59 AM

Geezus, my girl needs some meat on her bones.

>

"RE: S21 Love/Loathe List Ep5"
Posted by Aruba on 10-19-10 at 06:18 AM
What would this week be without a little point/counterpoint from me?

Yeah, it took me five episodes to come around on Alina when, to your credit, you were high on her early on; so I give you props on that one. I just wish Alina (as well as Kelly B.) would have been more proactive building an alliance on old La Flor. A two-person partnership doesn't fly on a tribe of nine. But that's old history...the tribal switch was what the doctor ordered for Alina. I just hope it's not too late for her.

I never said the Tribal Switch ITSELF is a Powerball Megamillion Sweepstake. What I stated is the one who just so happen to benefit the most from the switch is the Sweepstake WINNER. Not every season had a tribal switch before the merge, and when it happen it did not always occur the same time. This switch occurring on Ep. 5 made Holly the HUGE winner. Without the switch Espada competes against La Flor (with the MoP in hand) for tribal immunity. DUH...who do you think wins that challenge??? Bottomline, Holly becomes the fifth player voted off Survivor. That's the point I was making with Holly.

Not sure which friends you were referring to but I never said or insinuated Marty was "dumb." Quite the contrary...I think he's an intelligent man. Problem is he KNOWS he is and his ego wants everyone else to know also. That's why I'm not fond of him as a person, but as a player he is one of the most proactive thus far this season which is why I have him ranked where I do.

Gotta finish up with our favorite topic of discussion--Russell. "Fifty pounds of lard and the fur of a bear..." You crack me up! As Iltarion so accurately stated, "a less clothed Alina sat next to her (NaOnka) unaffected..." They say TV puts 15 pounds on a person, but I guess in Alina's case it took 50 pounds OFF her. And kudos to the editing room who are able the arbrush all that bodyhair off Alina. Otherwise how did she sit next to NaOnka without any quivering effect from the same adverse conditions that were beating NaOnka (Russell's daughter) into submission???

Keep 'em spinning my friend; it's what keeps this Forum interesting!

"RE: S21 Love/Loathe List Ep5"
Posted by michel on 10-19-10 at 06:22 PM
"I just wish Alina (as well as Kelly B.) would have been more proactive building an alliance on old La Flor. A two-person partnership doesn't fly on a tribe of nine."

Aruba, you are forgetting that Alina and KB were part of a 6 person alliance until Chase messed it up. She was proactive.


"This switch occurring on Ep. 5 made Holly the HUGE winner."

Tyrone could just as well have come out on top if he had proposed an alliance of strong guys to Chase and Benry. Holly "won" because she socialized well. Tyrone admitted he didn't work it at all. Anyway, Holly had a good position with Jane, Jimmy J, Yve and Tyrone all targeting Dan at their second TC. Then Tyrone stupidly flipped and voted out the Coach, putting Holly in trouble. I'd say just returns.

Read again, I am the one calling Marty dumb. I think he is playing a terrible game, much too risky, much too exposure, much too oblivious of what others think.

Finally, bringing Alina as a comparison tells me that I really didn’t explain myself well when I said Na’Onka was Russell’s daughter: Russell was twice voted Fan Favorite. Before the latest all-star season, CBS ran a popularity poll and the only player who came close to Rupert at #1 was Russell. Boston Rob, Tom, JT, Stephenie or Colby, it didn’t matter, none received even half the votes Russell received.

That, to me is appalling because Russell is one of the worst players ever. He’s great at getting to the end but he doesn’t understand how the game works and he had one of THE worst social games ever. Seeing Russell’s popularity, I knew other players would think anything goes and that the editors would serve them up, thinking that's what we want. Thus you have Na’Onka. She’ll do anything to get a HII and she’ll do anything to intimidate others, get them to quit or vote them out. That’s Russell’s recipe.

In my opinion, anyone who liked Russell is responsible for Na’Onka so it amuses me that he was loved while she is hated.

When it came to Na’Onka wanting to quit, I admitted that Russell’s toughness could be part of why people loved him but only a very small part. I won't give him much credit for it BECAUSE, as you say, other people like Alina (or Natalie in Samoa btw ) endured just as well as him. In addition, like I said, part of Russell’s ability to tough out the bad weather was his “50 pounds of lard and the fur of a bear.” Don’t tell me the only reason people hate Na’Onka is because she thought of quitting.

I hope that clears things up.

"RE: S21 Love/Loathe List Ep5"
Posted by krismiss2us on 10-19-10 at 09:15 PM
Being one of the masses who actually liked Russell, let me respond to this:

"In my opinion, anyone who liked Russell is responsible for Na’Onka so it amuses me that he was loved while she is hated."

I partially agree with that statement insofar as Russell's popularity definitly contributed to the editors casting "the likes" of him in succeeding shows. Having said that, NaBonkers is not well like because she is just, plain and simple, mean. Russell was not. His antics/manipulations or whatever you want ot call them were simply game play. On the outside, I sincerely doubt he was just plain mean. Naonka, however, strikes me as a mean person through and through. Her actions and talk, IMHO, are a good indication of who she REALLY is.



Thanks Tribe!

"RE: S21 Love/Loathe List Ep5"
Posted by michel on 10-19-10 at 10:11 PM

>I partially agree with that statement
>insofar as Russell's popularity definitly
>contributed to the editors casting
>"the likes" of him in
>succeeding shows.

That's is my main point.

>Having said
>that, NaBonkers is not well
>like because she is just,
>plain and simple, mean.
>Russell was not.

Well, Holly's insider clip tells a different story. She liked Nay. So did Chase, Sash, Brenda, Purple Kelly...
Ask Marisa or Betsy if Russell was mean or not. Laughing as you vote someone out like he did to Betsy is mean. Laughing as you vote someone out for no other reason than you want to strut your stuff like he did to Marisa was cruel...and definitely not good game play.


>On the
>outside, I sincerely doubt he
>was just plain mean.

I'd like to hear this woman's version, the one that Russell apparently assaulted:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-20003772-504083.html

You should also have read his replies to anyone who dared say he didn't know how to win Survivor: Aggressive and abusive are the best way to describe his reactions.


>Naonka, however, strikes me as
>a mean person through and
>through. Her actions and
>talk, IMHO, are a good
>indication of who she REALLY
>is.

We only know the edited version of Nay and she probably wanted to act like Russell anyway.

"RE: S21 Love/Loathe List Ep5"
Posted by Belle Book on 10-20-10 at 05:11 PM
I think Na'Onka is pretty nice to people who are in her clique but she can be abusive to those who are outside it. Ask Alina & Kelly B. Fortunately for Alina, Na'Onka can be nice if she realizes she needs someone as an ally.

Troll (aka RussHell) is great with the strategic game but he's totally clueless with the social game! His behavior inside and outside the game prove that he's a jerk -- granted, a strategic jerk but a jerk nonetheless.


"RE: S21 Love/Loathe List Ep5"
Posted by Aruba on 10-20-10 at 06:30 PM
OHHHHH...so ALINA was the "proactive" one in the 6-person La Flor alliance kickstarted by Shannon whose objective was combining male athleticism to dominate the physical challenges so he could systematically pick off the female castaways. Geez, thanks for clearing things up for us. I don't think a Spin Doctor of any caliber can convince me of that "proacvtivity." Unless of course they play the Edit Card and say Alina was proactive but editing just didn't show us. Yadda-Yadda-Yadda; Blah-Blah-Blah.

And Chase "messed it up?" For who? Maybe for those piggy-backing on Shannon's female-bashing scheme. But not for Chase. The way I see it Chase stands to get a hellava lot more milage interacting with the females as opposed to being in an alliance to ultimately target them. I guess time will tell if Chase made the right choice or "messed up" as you put it.

At this present point in time my discussion of Holly begins and ends with the fact that Holly is voted off if there's no tribal switch. And why would she have been voted off? Because she was a social debacle from destroying a tribemate's $1600 shoes (and then telling everyone about it) to wanting to quit, to suffering a meltdown. Anyone who can't see that the tribal switch (a game decision she had nothing to do with) saved her Survivor life needs to take a reality pill.

For the hundreth time (I lost count) I am NOT in "love" with Russell. Personally I think he's a scoundrol. It's his hard-nosed gameplay and never-say-quit attitude that I admire in a castaway. Iltarion is right...it will never sink in. Especially when you hang onto the notion that Production fixes seasons.

Hey, unless proven otherwise maybe Production does fix a season? Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to pull out some of my teeth and put it under my pillow to supplement my income...because maybe the tooth fairy is also real.

"RE: S21 Love/Loathe List Ep5"
Posted by michel on 10-20-10 at 06:55 PM
I'm wondering if you think all 9 La Flors were sitting alone on a portion of the beach and Shannon walked around looking at each and saying: "Yep, you're in my alliance, no, not you, yes, you, no, not you...."!!

If an alliance of 6 is formed then all those in the alliance did something that earned their position in it. Alliances are formed by the right smile, the right handshake, the right attitude and on so many other details that we, as spectators, simply cannot see. Saying who is proactive and who isn't is often meaningless.

Chase messed up Alina's plans, didn't he? It's hard to recover from a flip like that.

Did you hear anyone mentioning that Holly was going to be voted out before Marty in the latest episode? If Tyrone had stuck with the plan to vote out Dan instead of Jimmy Johnson, Holly wouldn't have been in immediate danger.

Hard-nosed gameplay is what Na'onka did to get the idol clue and to eliminate Shannon! You should admire her a bit for that if you admire the troll. That's all I'm saying. Not that you love Russell like others do. Realize; some of my posts aren't addressed exclusively to you!

"RE: S21 Love/Loathe List Ep5"
Posted by Aruba on 10-22-10 at 06:12 AM

>Hard-nosed gameplay is what Na'onka did to get the idol clue and to eliminate Shannon!

To regard strong-arming a one-legged girl to grab the HII clue as "hard-nosed gameplay" has been debated with several other posters a couple weeks ago. Because I share their sentiments I won't waste my time adding my to cents on that act.

So NaOnka caused Shannon's boot? Sorry but Shannon was resonsible for Shannon's boot.


>Did you hear anyone mentioning that Holly was going to be voted out before Marty in the latest episode? If Tyrone had stuck with the plan to vote out Dan instead of Jimmy Johnson, Holly wouldn't have been in immediate danger.

You're right...if Dan was voted off instead of Jimmy J, Holly and Jane would hve been in better position on Espada. But that's not want Marty wanted, and Marty controlled the votes. So when Marty said Holly would be next, it's pretty obvious to me or anyone following the season that Holly would have been the fifth castaway voted off Survivor.


I just posted a new list for ep. 6, so you an bring your Spinology there.

"RE: S21 Love/Loathe List Ep5"
Posted by iltarion on 10-21-10 at 02:17 AM

I had warned you.


>

"RE: S21 Love/Loathe List Ep5"
Posted by michel on 10-21-10 at 08:07 AM
You used to like a debate but, if you want, I can stop replying to your posts. Let me know.
"RE: S21 Love/Loathe List Ep5"
Posted by iltarion on 10-21-10 at 10:55 AM

Oh, I still like to debate... if that is what you want to call it, and I've still engaged in some back and forth, including right here in this very thread. I am just more cognizant of the futility of the act now.


>

"RE: S21 Love/Loathe List Ep5"
Posted by michel on 10-21-10 at 06:04 PM
Or is it because you have to defend Russell!!!

Futile, of course, everything about Survivor is futile. Many fun things are futile.

"RE: S21 Love/Loathe List Ep5"
Posted by iltarion on 10-21-10 at 06:17 PM

And some things that are futile aren't fun.

My warning was for Aruba, BTW. I was tongue and cheek reminding him that I warned him of engaging in this particular battle. Didn't occur to me that it might be taken as something else until now.

>

"RE: S21 Love/Loathe List Ep5"
Posted by iltarion on 10-21-10 at 09:37 PM

"For all his ability to dominate the game for the first 38 days..."

"Russell explained it very nicely: If everyone is angry at someone else besides him, it gives him power. If everyone is uncomfortable, they are easier to control. Horrible but very effective."

"You have to give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar: No one has ever been better at gaining instant control of a game."

"He’s still presented as the master tactician"

"He played the decoy so well that the Heroes knew he wasn't with them but they still hoped he was!"

"You have to give him credit for his acting skills"

"His idea of voting out the only other man to reinforce the idea of a women's alliance is one of the shrewdest moves ever and may be the key to the season."

"King Russell has Coach in his pocket. Entering Coach's mythical, make-believe world is very smart."


What are all these quotes? Past analysis of Russell's gameplay by michel.

Gee... I am confused.


>

"RE: S21 Love/Loathe List Ep5"
Posted by michel on 10-21-10 at 10:17 PM
LAST EDITED ON 10-21-10 AT 10:20 PM (EST)

Now you're talking!!!!! Love it.

But, some quotes are out of context like the one: "For all his ability to dominate the game for the first 38 days..." was followed by something like "he doesn't know how to win on day 39."

You also forget that my biggest problems with Russell came from what happened outside of the game:

1st and foremost: He thinks he is the best player ever and many people believe him. He is clearly not since he cannot win. You know I was never a Brian Heidik fan but Heidik was much better than Russell.

2nd: Jeff and the editors outrageously promoted him during S19 in order to sell S20. (That explains the "He’s still presented as the master tactician" which wasn't a ackowledgment of his abilities because it had to be followed by something like Galu sees through his tricks and they aren't impressed, they think he's a joke. When I said "presented" I meant what I see in his edit, not what I, personally, think of him.)

3rd: His absolutely atrocious behavior towards Natalie when she won. No matter the competition, once it's over, you shake your opponent's hand.

4th: His popularity helped create Na'Onka and all future villains. They think the social game isn't important anymore, that it's the jury that has to change.

5th: He is a despicable, illiterate troll that no one should idolize. He gained complete control of Foa Foa because Mick was weak. We saw that he couldn't gain control of the Villains tribe when Rob was around, that he needed an idol and Tyson's stupidity to gain control that time. So, for the Ceasar comment, you have to realize that was probably written after 3 or 4 weeks of S19. I'd qualify that now by saying "gaining control of a very weak tribe..."

I hope that clarifies some of the confusion.


And just to make Aruba laugh, I also hate the fact that production helped him twice, first by giving him that second idol in S19 and next by encouraging Parvati to trust him before the start of S20.

"RE: S21 Love/Loathe List Ep5"
Posted by iltarion on 10-22-10 at 02:19 AM

Hahaha... using your own quotes against you is one of my fave posts of all time.

I know you had to dig that too.

No reason to explain. Not only is it out of context, but a person is allowed to change their mind, right? That's what my ex told me, anyway.

Seriously, I only had to go back one or two pages on the Fanatics board to get those quotes. Those are all from S20. I could go farther back and get a lot more.

>

"RE: S21 Love/Loathe List Ep5"
Posted by michel on 10-22-10 at 06:12 PM
I'm not sure if changing my mind is the right way to put it. For me, there was always 3 parts to the story:

1st- Russell-the-TV-character we saw on the two seasons is the one that those quotes apply to. I enjoyed seeing his antics because I knew he'd have to fall, that he couldn't possibly win playing that way but, man! was he trying!

2nd: The real Russell, the one we saw at the reunion and the ones that gave all those interviews, nauseated me. That is the one I attack here, the one that thinks is the best player ever and thinks the game is flawed.

3rd: His popularity created new fans and changed the opinion of many older ones. They now think his way is a good way to play survivor. Those are the ones that I have fun telling they should appreciate Na'Onka's gameplay.

How long do you think it will be before CBS brings the creep back?

"RE: S21 Love/Loathe List Ep5"
Posted by iltarion on 10-22-10 at 06:22 PM

I don't know. What does Jeff think of All-Stars now after doing it a second time? Is he back to hating it or has he changed his mind?

One thing not mentioned about the RussHole, game play completely aside, I enjoy the guy premerge because he is one of the better confessional givers of all time. Usually, by merge though, even his confessionals are tired and you just want the guy to shut up or go away or get eaten by a shark, preferably.

>

"RE: S21 Love/Loathe List Ep5"
Posted by michel on 10-22-10 at 08:29 PM
"Usually, by merge though, even his confessionals are tired and you just want the guy to shut up or go away or get eaten by a shark, preferably."

We can certainly agree on that! He lacked a sense of humor.

"AWWWWWWW"
Posted by krismiss2us on 10-22-10 at 08:45 PM
Now all of you are back and have made me happy with your banter. (because of course, it is all about ME, at least that's what i keep telling myself).

Glad to see ya'll are back and bantering. Does anyone know where ARW is??????

Thanks Tribe!

"RE: S21 Love/Loathe List Ep5"
Posted by krismiss2us on 10-21-10 at 06:05 PM
Come on you two. I enjoy reading your back and forth and throwing in my two cents. I enjoy giving an opinion, getting slammed for it and, as I've said before, READING THE BACK AND FORTH BETWEEN YOU GUYS!!! Please don't stop. Of course arguing is futile, but it makes this thread so much more interesting.

Thanks Tribe!

"RE: S21 Love/Loathe List Ep5"
Posted by michel on 10-21-10 at 10:25 PM
I aim to please!
"RE: S21 Love/Loathe List Ep5"
Posted by Aruba on 10-22-10 at 06:17 AM
>I had warned you.

You're right, I should know better. But I can't help myself.

It's like a boozehound making a promise to himself that he'll never have another drop of alcohol while hugging the bowl after a night of heavy carousing.

But the next time he's invited to a party, he imprint of the bathroom tiles on his knees have long worn off and he's asking the host, "Where's the keg?"

"RE: S21 Love/Loathe List Ep5"
Posted by Survivorerist on 10-16-10 at 06:34 PM
Missed last week but no worries...

1. Alina (3) - Love this girl! Glad to see that she's gotten enough attention to justify first place.

2. Benry (4)

3. Marty (14) - I don't know...this guy keeps on being either loved or hated by me, and this week he was enjoyable to watch

4. Fabio (2)

5. Brenda (6)

6. Chase (9) - Showed a heart of gold this week in comforting Naonka.

7. Yve (7) - Meh

8. Kelly B. (5)

9. Naonka (12) - Definitely surprising to see her nearly fold like that this week. Made her a little easier to sympathize with though as opposed to when she's just being mean.

10. Jane (16)

11. Holly (10)

12. Sash (11) - Invisible this episode, but nothing really to make me outright hate him yet.

13. Dan (13)

14. Jill (8)

15. Kelly P. (17) - C'mon...do something! Anything!

"RE: S21 Love/Loathe List Ep5"
Posted by krismiss2us on 10-16-10 at 11:05 PM

JANE - jumping her up cuz she recognizes people - read marty and jill - for who they are...and she finally voted her mind...not the bandwagon

ALINA - she's making smarter moves, waiting to see how things play out is the best way to play this game.

JUD - still liking this kid but he needs to get away from Marty

BRENDA - i hate when people get upset over others telliung them that things have a place and then say those people are bossy. seriously girl, grow up!

HOLLY - moved up for choosing people and at least trying to do something.

KELLY -can she come out of her shell adn do something please????

CHASE - IVE - Purple Kelly - BENRY - MATT - just don't see enough of these people to form an opinion

DAN - he still needs to go.

JILL - she's still an idiot for following Marty

NAONKA - oh poor naonka. she got a divorce. that was the hardest thing she ever did. boo freakin hoo. She oughta live my life. i guarantee that it is a hell of a lot harder.

MARTY - i really hate this guy.

BOOTED
TYRONE - he should've kept his yap shut - both for talking and eating.


Thanks Tribe!

"RE: S21 Love/Loathe List Ep5"
Posted by dabo on 10-18-10 at 12:35 PM
1. Jane (3). Reshuffling of the tribes throws her a lifeline, made friends with the kids and should be in this awhile now.

2. Brenda (1). The La Flor mastermind has had it fairly easy up to now, challenges primarily in the second episode to deflect the vote against her. She's played well on her charms, now that she has a challenge in camp she needs to get a more proactive political game running.

3. Chase (7). Big bump for handling The NaOnka Meltdown so well.

4. Alina (8). Reshuffle gave her new hope and more opportunities, playing smart, and her assessment of NaOnka was dead on and damn funny!

5. Jud (5). Welcome back to the game. Letting Marty talk and lapping it up, yep dude that's the way to play Marty!

6. Kelly B. (2). Not much from her this time even though the story of the NaOnka Fight has become camp legend.

7. Benry (10). Well, look who woke up! Up to now he seems to have just been saving it for challenges, now he's stepping in to really start playing the game; solidifying his position in New Espada by knocking out Tyrone was the smartest thing he could have done.

8. Holly (12). Another lifeline player, built some good relations with the new kids on the block.

9. Yve (6). Nothing much, but taking a hardline at Tribal was not good political game at this point.

10. Jill (11).

11. Marty (9). Dude, La Flor was burying Espada, dominating the conversation and telling the kids what they've been doing wrong when you should be listening just isn't going to work well. The play with the HII was smart since there was no point in trying to hide it.

12. Sash (14).

13. Dan (13). Somehow he keeps buying himself more time in the game.

14. Kelly S. (15).

15. NaOnka (16). At least she wasn't so hateful this time; but she's getting worse in the sense that a lot of what she says kind of sounds like English but it's some sort of code lingo, I don't have the codebook.

Bye-bye. Tyrone (4). Oh, well, enjoy your time with Wendy, Shannon and the Jimmies.

"RE: S21 Love/Loathe List Ep5"
Posted by michel on 10-18-10 at 06:13 PM
Nice list Dabo. I like your take on the players except for one comment: "Benry... knocking out Tyrone was the smartest thing he could have done."

If Benry lets Dan, Yve, Holly and Na'Onka make the merge where they join the likes of Jane and Kelly S. then the weak players can all team up and who becomes target #1? Benry. Voting out Dan takes the numbers away from Tyrone and, if Espada wins every challenge after that, meaning Tyrone makes the merge, he becomes everyone's target. Isn't that smarter?


"RE: S21 Love/Loathe List Ep5"
Posted by dabo on 10-18-10 at 11:31 PM
Well, some things are difficult or just impossible to know, and I think we can all agree that it is impossible to know how much information Benry had at this point in the game. That acknowledged: if he found out about Sash's nascent "minority alliance" plans then he had more to fear from a post-merge minority alliance than from a post-merge weakling alliance. If the weakling alliance develops he can still try to keep himself in it with a string of individual challenge wins, his odds are better than fighting an alliance which includes some serious challenge competition.
"RE: S21 Love/Loathe List Ep5"
Posted by michel on 10-18-10 at 11:54 PM
Good point but I always think it's better not to count on immunities that early, no matter the competition. Even Courtney won an IC.

Keeping Tyrone, Benry can pretend to be with him instead of the flaky Holly who seems to be closer to the girls anyway. That's another thing; Benry can certainly count how many men vs women are left. Tyrone was a man of integrity so I doubt he'd jump over to Sash after "teaming" up with Benry and he'd certainly wouldn't be in a women's alliance!