Hey, fantastic games by Parvati and Sandra. They were both deserving. The crucial factor to the vote was an overwhelming hatred towards Russell. Sandra separated herself from that, in the Heroes' eyes, by trying to work with them to get rid of Russell. Parvati just never got that separation in the Heroes' eyes. They saw her as Russell's lackey, and that was her undoing. Candice pretty much summed it up perfectly during FTC. Her vote going to Sandra was absolutely devastating for Parvati.

Props to Rupert for FTC comments that almost moved Sandra and Parvati to tears. His vote for Sandra was obviously never in doubt.

Props to the entire jury or at least the editing for a FTC reasonably free of hypocrisy.

Props to Parvati, the queen of concentration challenges. I believe her when she says she had little choice but to align with Russell. I am quite sure she would have LOVED to play with Rob, Tyson and Coach if they would have given her the chance. I'm sure Rob targeted her from the get go, and she just couldn't recover from that. Her mistake though was never getting a handle on Russell, though she thought she did. She should never had let him vote out Courtney instead of Sandra, and she should have never let him get closer to Jeri than her. And instead of capitulating to vote out Jeri, she should have stuck with Jeri and voted out Sandra, even if it meant a fire tiebreaker. Sandra had Rupert and Courtney's votes locked. Jeri had nobody's vote locked. Booting Jeri made no sense.

And props to Sandra for validating her PI win with a great win here. Best ever? Empirically, yes. On my list? No. I have to agree with Parvati and Russell on that one. Sandra has no physical game and not even a great social game. Tom said winning is 1/3rd luck, and Sandra got handed an FTC twice against the two greatest goats to ever make FTC. Personally, I think her PI win was so unimpressive that most the Survivors didn't even look at her as a past winner. Still, great game here and a very deserving winner.

Also, as I go out the door here, I have to say that the Ponderosa clips were awesome. It appears that Coach and Courtney are both the kind of people that you would like to party with. Coach and Courtney, who would have guessed that? It looked like everyone who got booted was having a great time together.

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• RE: Parvati catches collateral Russell hatred,garcor, 07:07 AM, 05-17-10
• RE: Parvati catches collateral Russell hatred,Belle Book, 04:52 PM, 05-17-10
  • RE: Parvati catches collateral Russell hatred,michel, 07:34 PM, 05-17-10
    • RE: Parvati catches collateral Russell hatred,iltarion, 08:08 PM, 05-17-10
      • On the other hand...,udg, 11:57 PM, 05-17-10
        • RE: On the other hand...,garcor, 06:41 AM, 05-18-10
        • RE: On the other hand...,michel, 06:07 PM, 05-18-10
          • RE: On the other hand...,Snidget, 06:21 PM, 05-18-10
            • RE: On the other hand...,michel, 06:43 PM, 05-18-10
              • RE: On the other hand...,Snidget, 07:22 PM, 05-18-10
                • RE: On the other hand...,michel, 08:59 PM, 05-18-10
              • RE: On the other hand...,garcor, 07:53 PM, 05-18-10
                • RE: On the other hand...,michel, 08:39 PM, 05-18-10
                  • RE: On the other hand...,garcor, 09:14 PM, 05-18-10
    • RE: Parvati catches collateral Russell hatred,Belle Book, 08:12 PM, 05-17-10
      • RE: Parvati catches collateral Russell hatred,garcor, 08:38 PM, 05-17-10
    • RE: Parvati catches collateral Russell hatred,KuwabaraTheMan, 08:58 PM, 05-18-10
      • RE: Parvati catches collateral Russell hatred,michel, 11:06 PM, 05-18-10
        • RE: Parvati catches collateral Russell hatred,iltarion, 03:22 AM, 05-19-10
          • RE: Parvati catches collateral Russell hatred,michel, 08:08 AM, 05-19-10
            • RE: Parvati catches collateral Russell hatred,iltarion, 02:31 PM, 05-19-10
              • RE: Parvati catches collateral Russell hatred,iltarion, 02:34 PM, 05-19-10

Agreed. Parvati was too closely associated with an intensely disliked player.

Thought Parvati's comment that she kept Russell as her pet didn't help her any. Don't think anyone believed it and it didn't make her look good. And Sandra's argument that she kept trying to ally with the Heroes to vote out Russell won it for her. Not sure how true that was; she might have wanted Russell exactly where he ended up; next to her at final TC. Would make her constant Russell rants shrewd but insincere.

I don't see Parvati as RussHell's lackey, but unfortunately too many of the Heroes did or at least couldn't separate her from RussHell. Parvati was right in saying that he hurt her in the end.

I think Sandra's win in Pearl Islands was more impressive than say, Vecepia's in Marquesas, but probably a lot of people saw it as very unimpressive and that helped her avoid being seen as a threat -- something Parvati couldn't do although she found a way around it.

Parvati would've made a very good winner as well but I'm happy that Sandra won. Luck played a big role and she has some social game, although not half as much as say, Cirie. But her biggest asset was managing to dodge all of the bullets in Pearl Islands and most of them here, and she was a master of that.

I still say that her best break was that the other players managed to dodge her bullets! She WANTED to vote out Parvati and Russell which would have led her to a F4 with Amanda, Rupert and Colby. How does she win then?

In PI, let Sandra decide all the eliminations on her own from F10 to F5 and the boot order would have been: Savage, Ryno, Fairplay, Burton and Lill, leaving her in a F5 with Christa, Rupert, Tijuana and Darrah. She doesn't beat any of them!

Great point. Russell isn't wrong all the time. Essentially, in both her wins, Sandra was rewarded for her failures.

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Russell knew she was gunning for him all along. She rarely bothered to hide it (except the week Candice flipped). She told him flat out she was against him. And HE failed to get HER out. And he lost for it.

So, maybe her failure was her success, his failure was... his failure. And she has the million dollar check because of it.

Slice n' Dice's Sigpic Chop Shop 2004

didn't appear to try; as he thought she would be so easy to beat. not that it did anything to hurt Russell's chances. whomever was in final TC with him would beat him.

I don't have a problem with Russell, a Loser, using a losing strategy. That's what losers do.

My problem is with Sandra, going with a losing strategy, winning because her plan failed and then being called the greatest ever. Quite ironic, I'd say.

I don't buy RussHell's assertion that the one and only thing Sandra had as her whole plan to win the game was vote out RussHell.

It seemed she had a lot of the same thing as the last time she played and it worked.

1. Don't get in the way of the people winning the team challenges and don't be a challenge threat. Works well as she isn't that athletic and the didn't give her a sit perfectly still on something that only someone of your specific weight can balance on easily challenge like they gave Courtney that one time.

2. Get people to like you enough to vote for you at the end. After all the way to win the game is to secure the votes in the last vote.

3. Make sure at each vote before the last vote they don't vote you out.

Why RussHell didn't get Sandra out for defying his ego, I dunno, but she did the sorts of things he usually goes ballistic over yet he couldn't get her out, either.

While people don't like the "anyone but me" way of playing the game Sandra has it mastered in a way I haven't seen other people do well at. What is funny is in a lot of ways it shouldn't work, but she makes it work, and made it work twice.

LAST EDITED ON 05-18-10 AT 06:44 PM (EST)

But it isn't Russell's assertion I'm refering to: Sandra wanted to vote him out. She said so. If she had succeeded, she could only have been in an F3 with 2 of Rupert, Colby or Amanda. She can't win that vote.

As for the "anyone but me", that isn't how Sandra plays. She has always had targets. "Anyone but me" would mean she doesn't care who goes, she doesn't target anyone, she just goes with the flavor of the day. At each vote, she tried to get someone specific voted out just like in PI where she wanted to eliminate Fairplay and Lill, the only players she could beat. Luckily, she's really bad at getting those people voted out.

LAST EDITED ON 05-18-10 AT 07:24 PM (EST)

Yep, she has targets, but they aren't based on "my alliance" but who is the anyone other than her that she can go with that won't get her bounced.

I don't think her ability to read who is the "anyone" that can go is dumb luck or "did nothing" ETA: or "losing strategy"

I don't know who she'd end up against if she'd gotten Russ out any of the various votes she wanted him out, but if she was the one behind getting the hated one out she only loses his vote, but may gain a few others.

Who else would she wind up facing after booting Russell? Anyway, it was supposed to be Parvati going first at F9, Russell at F8. That would have left 4 heroes, Danielle and Jerri. Sandra wouldn't have had a say on the F3.

Another example of her losing Strategy - PI F8: Sandra hears Fairplay and Burton talking about voting out Rupert. She doesn't "see it happening" and anyway, Lill is with them.

At TC, Fairplay, Burton, Darrah and T vote against Rupert along with Lill. Rupert and Christa voted Darrah. Sandra, so sure Darrah was leaving, threw a vote at Fairplay. Even if Lill had voted with them, Rupert was going home. Greatest ever?

LAST EDITED ON 05-18-10 AT 08:40 PM (EST)

Obviously she's doing something right. $2M means something. She has no problem gaining allies, she does appear to read people well, she's strong willed, she doesn't give up easily, and she knows how to speak to the jury. But I don't think she compares with the strongest winners. There is too much she doesn't do very well; she's fairly weak at challenges; doesn't do all that much around camp, doesn't show any particular leadership ability, isn't especially good at strategy. The fact that she wasn't targeted even though she was a past winner says a lot; Colby said no one was afraid of being next to her at final TC and Russell thought her easy to beat because she had hardly played the game. Cirie was targeted early despite never having won. And when your biggest argument for why you should win is that you tried, but failed, to get another player voted out, you can't be that strong a winner.

"Obviously she's doing something right. $2M means something. She has no problem gaining allies, she does appear to read people well, she's strong willed, and she doesn't give up easy. But I don't think she compares with the strongest winners."

That's what I meant.
I was here to defend Sandra when, after PI, some were calling her a "useless human being". I'd argue she wasn't the worst winner ever. On the other hand, I have to argue against her being the "greatest ever" also. I guess it's a question of balance!

I also remember how we used to say that her PI jury speach was simply horrible. She admitted doing very little, that Lill had done all the moves. Luckily, no one was going to give the money to an outcast.

Or to Russell.

You may have a point there, although she obviously didn't know that when she tried to jump ship.

LAST EDITED ON 05-17-10 AT 10:26 PM (EST)

Agree with previous posters. I know its called Survivor, but I got to like the idea that the winner did something more than just survive; like helped feed his/her tribe, was strong in challenges, or made big strategic moves, like both Russell and Parvati did this season, but not Sandra. She made a series of small but smart calculations and a nice move in saving Courtney for a week, but her biggest argument for why she should win was that she wasn't Russell and wasn't closely allied with Russell. And it's not like she was seriously targeted as a threat. Colby's comment about people being afraid to go against Parvati at final TC said something about how unimpressive Sandra's game looked to the other competitors.

The entire final TC had a nasty edge to it with Parvati referring to Russell as her pet and Sandra lobbying for votes based on her trying to get rid of Russell. Well its not like Russell wasn't personality responsible for most of it with his style of play and tactless behavior, but it still seemed sad. It's like he brought out the worst in his fellow players and some of the jurors too.

Well, hindsight is 20/20. At the time she was trying to get rid of Russell, Sandra had no way of knowing that she'd find an idol (she didn't wind up needing it, but she was in pretty dangerous water since she wasn't part of the alliance and could be considered expendable), or that Russell would turn on Danielle (who he certainly would have originally wanted sitting next to him at the end since she did nothing except for finding a clue in a popcorn bowl) and voted her out, or that he would inexplicably decide that Jerri was a bigger jury threat than she was.

I think Sandra would have certainly taken Candice with her to the end, and probably Amanda. I think she wins a Final 3 with those two easily. Candice gets no votes except for maybe Coach (since she would be more of a 'warrior' than the other two), and Amanda maybe gets the male heroes (but Sandra can play the "I got you where you are card). Alternatively, she could have taken Colby instead of Amanda, since he really did nothing and seemed dead. That's riskier, but it could work. Either way, if she had gotten rid of Russell and Parvati than she could sit in front of the Jury and say that she made all of the biggest moves of the season. As long as Rupert isn't sitting next to her, I think her chances would be pretty good in that scenario.

If Sandra had succeeded, we all know that Amanda would get votes from Parvati, Danielle, JT, Colby and Jerri with Coach being a good bet also. Sandra would get Courtney and Rupert's votes. Russell's vote would have been extremely interesting: Would he have rewarded Sandra for making moves like his or would he have voted just the way the others voted against him!! I say his ego wouldn't allow him to vote Sandra.

You want another example of losing strategy? If her alliance had succeeded and eliminated Russell, Parvati and Danielle pre-merge and eliminated the Heroes post-merge, how does Sandra win against Boston Rob or Tyson? By using Courtney? Sorry but Courtney was closer to Tyson. So were Coach and Jerri. Using the Heroes to overturn Tyson? Again, she'd lose to the Heroes in the end.

Face it, just like she needed Fairplay in PI, she needed Russell in HvV. She never realized it. I think that is the real lesson of her victories: Not that she is the greatest ever but that she needed the two biggest Villains ever to pave the way. Russell had no way of winning the game and JFP could only win facing Outcasts. Both acted on the spur of the moment, making terrible decisions along the way: JFP, not convincing Lill she was his F2, Russell voting out Danielle. Sandra had nothing to do with either turning point.

"Sandra had nothing to do with either turning point."
Neither did Chris or Danni. Both benefited from someone in the majority alliance wanting to use their vote to gain control. Chris even said it himself, "I don't even have to do anything, and the whole game changes."

Sandra may not be the greatest ever, but she HAS performed the greatest feat ever in Survivor history. No question about that.

Sandra's self-admitted strategy was "anyone but me." Yeah, she wanted JFP, Lil and Russell gone. But were those "targets" or just personal grudges? MAYBE, she didn't successfully boot any of those players because in the end that wasn't her strategy. In the end, she didn't care who got booted as long as it wasn't her. Sandra said it herself multiple times. She wanted REVENGE on Russell. It had nothing to do with strategy. It was personal.

So in both seasons, it was Sandra's strategy that got her to the end, and it was her hatred for the season's villian that endeared her to the jury.

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That's a very superficial analysis of Chris and Danni's game.

- First, Chris had F2 deals with Twila and Julie. That's what kept him in the loop. Then, he kept saying Eliza should go so that's why Julie told him Eliza was the vote and that's what started the whole flip against Ami.

- Danni had worked to gain Gary's trust because she knew he was well liked by the other side, Rafe and Steph in particular. She also worked hard to get close to Rafe and Steph. She got so close that she was the only one to realize that Rafe was playing to make Steph the goat. Danni used that. And the turning point was the overthrow of that season's biggest villain, Judd. Danni had EVERYTHING to do with that.

As for Sandra, if it was personal grudges and not strategy, that would simply mean she had no strategy. Anyone but me? Tell me what she did when it was either Courtney or her? We didn't see her do a single thing.

"MAYBE, she didn't successfully boot any of those players because in the end that wasn't her strategy"

She did write their names down. She did try to get other players to vote them out. What else do you need?

But, Iltarion, if you are saying that Sandra isn't the greatest ever, for whatever reason, then we are on the same side!

That we are. I only grudgingly put her in the top 3 thanks to the obvious accomplishment. Like Parvati, Rob, Tom, and Cirie, good luck getting to the end once people start actually seeing you as a threat. If nothing else, S20 showed that winning once doesn't automatically give you respect among other players. Obviously, it has more to do with HOW you play. Non-winners Cirie, Rob and Amanda were much more feared/respected than Sandra or JT.

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Also, props to Parvati for saying she was done with Survivor. Of course, give her a couple years and maybe she'd have a Favrian change of mind. She looked the best I've ever seen her at the Reunion.

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