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"S20 Heroes vs. Villians - Love/Loathe List- Ep 4"

Posted by iltarion on 03-06-10 at 04:10 AM

Now that's a little more like it. Great episode. Great confessionals. Insanity from Coach. Somewhat lame challenges, but I did appreciate the oil. And most importantly, a heart-thumping TC that was not predictable. I especially loved the shots of JT listening in on his alliance's discussion with Cirie, and then the shot of him after they walked away.

1. JT- After being quiet the first half of the episode, JT gains the top spot for at least a week after pulling off one of the gutsiest moves we've ever seen on Survivor. Interviews afterwards seem to indicate that JT and Cirie battled for control of the big alliance the entire time. JT ended that battle, eliminated a strong player, and put two trustworthy players in his debt. Great fricking move.

2. Rob - Still a great episode from Rob who continues to be the golden goose in challenges. Also some great confessionals, including flashing some of the old Rob in his remarks about Coach and Russell. I loved that he sent Sandra out to look for Russell. That was a flash of the Robfadda there.

3. Tom - Came out the winner in the battle with Cirie set up in Episode 1, with a huge assist from JT, obviously. I said two episodes ago though that it wasn't over for him. I think he and Colby are good until merge now, but if things don't turn around for the Heroes, Tom will be the #1 target postmerge.

4. Dragon Slayer - Cries and threatens to quit after Sandra said a few uncomplimentary words, and then compares himself with King Arthur and the Last of the Mohicans. This guy has to be for real because no one could come up with an act this crazy.

5. Sandra - She's great. Who else would have the guts to tell the tribe that if they look for the HII everyone's putting their name down? The most unfathomable fact of this entire season is that this woman would be the top woman on my list.

6. Amanda - Tom may blame Amanda for "breaking faith," but he doesn't hold the power of the vote. JT does, and JT is aligned with Amanda. Cirie being gone may just allow Amanda to play her normal game, which is typically working with a man she can trust. It is obvious thru 3 seasons that Amanda gets along better with men. Since this tribe is turning into all men, she should be fine. On the other hand, the Heroes better win some challenges or they could become ALL men. Lastly, props to the editing for several gratuitous shots of Amanda's backside. That never hurts.

7. Tyson - Finally got himself some screen time. Showed he and Coach might be fairly decent friends afterall. Won the RC. I wonder how far he will go.

8. Danielle - She might have had a fairly quiet episode, but watch again and notice she is the first to ask about Coach and she was the first to agree that Russell cut his own throat by looking for the idol. I think her alliance with Russell is long gone. She seems to always be there whenever Rob, Sandra, Tyson and Coach are shown. And, of course I loved the RC. Also, at the IC, great shot of her with her hair down.

9. Parvati- Non-existent episode where she didn't even participate in the RC. Certainly not a winner's edit, though it is early yet.

10. Colby - Props to him for not gloating after the vote came down. He is still in some danger, at the whim of JT, but things certainly look better.

11. Jerri - Her high tide was episode 1. Is lucky to get any screen time now.

12. Courtney - Who? My God, someone feed this girl a pizza.

13. Candice - Typically strong in the challenges. Looked good in her bikini and even had her hair down for the IC. She is the one JT wants out though, and that is big trouble.

14. Rupert - At least had the honest comment in TC. It was the first time he looked like a hero again. He has mostly been a tool so far.

15. James - Quieter episode for him. Had the oil, and the "Hell no!" when asked if he trusted Candice. His loyalties and brain are all over the place. Referred to himself in the 3rd person at TC. Props for that.

16. Russell - Ends up where he started last season. Finding the idol seems to be all he is about right now, even with his tribe warning him not to look. Then he has the audacity to call them the idiots. The idol has no power if your whole tribe comes gunning for you.

que Cirie Cirie-

Sugarloaf - who?
Stephanie - 3rd time's a byotch
Randy - useless
Cirie - Wow, our first big time player to go. She found out it is A LOT harder playing this game with a target on your back. Her game requires her to be behind the scenes. She would have done better on the Villians. The Heroes are too fractured with too many swing votes in play. Frankly, her game isn't versatile enough to overcome being dealt a bad hand.


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Messages in this discussion
"RE: S20 Heroes vs. Villians - Love/Loathe List- Ep 4"
Posted by Tublecane on 03-06-10 at 12:32 PM
"Who else would have the guts to tell the tribe that if they look for the HII everyone's putting their name down?"

That's actually a stupid move, if played straight. You'd want the person holding the idol not to expect votes against them, or to be confused as to which one, them or their allies, is being targeted. Going straight after them almost ensures a bounceback. Not that Sandra cares, being a cockroach, capable of surviving the collapse of any number of alliances.

If it's meant as a deterrent, I don't see it working, either. Those afraid of holding the idol aren't usually the ones to look hard for it, anyway.

"I think he and Colby are good until merge now"

I think JT's more than willing to switch back. His move was all about getting rid of his rival for dominance of the majority alliance, as you indicated. Why team up with another natural leader (albeit of a different kind)? He'll swoop in and claim Amanda et al for himself, I predict.

"The idol has no power if your whole tribe comes gunning for you."

Actually, the idol has greater than average power if the whole tribe is gunning for you. Unless you don't know they're gunning for you. Except they told him, so he does know.

There's always vote-splitting, which could hurt your alliance. But I don't know if that falls under the umbrella of "your whole tribe gunning for you" as it's been presented. Also, vote-splits can be torpedoed, as demonstrated by Cirie's ouster. in fact, I find it exceedingly odd that you place Russell at the bottom when all he's doing is exactly what Tom did (i.e. looking for the idol in the open), given that it worked well for Tom.

If Russell were not to find the idol before the next tribal council, I would agree with what seems to be the prevailing opinion that Russell's screwing himself. However, I predict he will find it, they will target him, and he will somehow use it to gain control (along with his alliance) of the tribe.


"RE: S20 Heroes vs. Villians - Love/Loathe List- Ep 4"
Posted by garcor on 03-06-10 at 10:57 PM
Don't know that I see JT regaining control of the Amanda/James/Rupert/ perhaps Candice alliance. He's just turned against them. Think it more likely that if Candice does change sides that Tom will end up controlling the tribe. He's older and more of a traditional patriarchial leader figure than JT. He also has at least one solid ally he can count on in Colby which is a help. Whom does JT have at this point besides himself.

"RE: S20 Heroes vs. Villians - Love/Loathe List- Ep 4"
Posted by Tublecane on 03-06-10 at 12:39 PM
"Then he has the audacity to call them the idiots."

I think they are idiots, in the vein of Marcus from Gabon. Why sacrifice what could be yours? Also, Boston Rob's a little too fixated on being the Robfather, with the concomitant notion that he who controls the tribe controls the vote. Latter-day Survivor gives a lot of power to lone gunmen. Russell may lose every single time he plays due to his disregard for public opinion, but no one can deny it gives him a distinct advantage when ignoring the petty "marks" of others gives you a better chance to control your destiny in the game. Rob and Sandra's warnings are meaningless if he plays the idol correctly, and they are idiots for not realizing that they could play the idol correctly, and deny Russell the same opportunity, too, if only they tried.


"RE: S20 Heroes vs. Villians - Love/Loathe List- Ep 4"
Posted by iltarion on 03-06-10 at 03:24 PM

Some very good points there on Russell, and props for the reference to Marcus in Gabon. However, there is a huge difference between Tom looking for the idol and Russell. Tom was the clear next vote, and his entire tribe was out looking for the idol. Russell's entire tribe, on the other hand, basically agreed to NOT look for it. By looking for it anyway, Russell pretty much gives his entire tribe the middle finger. On a tribe of dolts like FU FU, that could maybe be overcome with the use of the idol, but on a tribe led by Rob and Sandra and full of players not exactly overwhelmed with awe at the idea of having the idol, it is more albatross than talisman.

If any of the villians had found the clue unbeknownst to anyone else, I'm sure they would have bothered looking for it. The other villians aren't being idiots by not looking for it. They are merely keeping faith with what the tribe agreed to. Russell instead seems fixated on the power of the idol and has alienated himself because of it.

We will see if Russell can find it and pull an alliance together with it. However, in the editing, I don't see that happening. My feeling all season is that Russell will not make it far. Beyond Episode 1, I think the editing is starting to support that feeling. We have not seen him show influence over anyone other than Parvati after Episode 1. Admittedly, part of that feeling comes from Russell's behavior at the Samoa Reunion. He appeared ticked off even before Natalie got the votes to win. Would he have appeared like that and reacted the way he did if he made it far in H v V? I don't think so.


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"RE: S20 Heroes vs. Villians - Love/Loathe List- Ep 4"
Posted by Tublecane on 03-09-10 at 02:24 PM
LAST EDITED ON 03-09-10 AT 02:26 PM (EST)

"Russell's entire tribe, on the other hand, basically agreed to NOT look for it. By looking for it anyway, Russell pretty much gives his entire tribe the middle finger."

Not his entire tribe. Different factions have different interests. And even if Parvati and Danielle are lying about being in an alliance with Russell, they don't view the situation the same way Sandra and Rob do. In the first place, they had HIIs in their seasons. Secondly, not looking for the idol is naturally more attractive to those in a leadership position (or those that think they're in the leadership position). Not to say that the majority alliance can't use the idol as well as smaller factions and lone gunmen. They can, but they don't have as desperate a need.

I don't know for certain who's in the majority alliance. I figure Rob, Sandra, Tyson, and Coach are together, and maybe Jerri and Courtney, I don't know. Parvati is on the outside, from what we've seen, and I haven't seen any evidence Danielle wouldn't follow along. They, at least, wouldn't take Russell's actions as a middle finger. Rob and Sandra think they're the conscience of the tribe, or are strategically pretending to be. But they aren't. As always, they're acting in their own interest.

"The other villians aren't being idiots by not looking for it. They are merely keeping faith with what the tribe agreed to."

I guess the tribe agreed. At least, no one audibly spoke out against it. But, obviously, Russell didn't agree. I've seen secret footage where Jerri disagreed. Isn't it just as likely that those who disagreed either didn't speak up or outright lied, in the interest of not rocking the boat? I think you give far too much credence to the view that Rob/Sandra's commands represented any sort of genuine consensus. Not to mention the fact that those sort of agreements can fly out the window when someone comes up to you already possessing the idol.

"However, in the editing, I don't see that happening. My feeling all season is that Russell will not make it far. Beyond Episode 1, I think the editing is starting to support that feeling."

I don't know what you're talking about, really. Russell's storyline has two themes thus far: 1) he's a budding mastermind who wants to take down Boston Rob (See Russell make deals! Oh, look, he's cleverly hiding the machete with no repercussions! Astros rule, Red Sox drool!), and 2) he's a "dummy" in Rob/Sandra's crosshairs (Russ-varti is no Romber; what an idiot, looking for the idol, he's writing his own name down!). Either storyline is open for interpretation. The mastermind stuff could be preparing the audience to accept him as an actual mastermind, or it could be "pride goes before the fall" territory. His being a "hobbit on crack," painting a target on his back, could foreshadow his downfall or make his triumph more satisfying for him having been an underdog. At best, it's entirely unclear.

"He appeared ticked off even before Natalie got the votes to win. Would he have appeared like that and reacted the way he did if he made it far in H v V? I don't think so."

I don't know about him being ticked off before the votes were read. Perhaps the result was spoiled for him (not conclusively, but convicingly). I did notice how upset he was after he lost. That doesn't have to mean anything more than that he realized he probably also didn't win Survivor 20 because he played the exact same way. Also, maybe Russell's the sort of guy who would be upset at losing 19 even though he knew for a fact he won 20.


"RE: S20 Heroes vs. Villians - Love/Loathe List- Ep 4"
Posted by iltarion on 03-09-10 at 06:13 PM

I am not a mind reader and maybe Russell is a great actor, but did you see Russell before they read the votes? He looked like his wife just left him. Seriously. He looked ticked. Maybe it was just because he already knew he wasn't winning S19, but it didn't bode well for S20, if you ask me.

As for the editing, here's what I mean-

1. In episode 1, Russell was shown making alliances with Parvati and Danielle and dominated confessionals with only Rob getting as much screen time on the Villians. Since then, we have not seen Russell discuss strategy with anyone other than Parvati. In fact, for the first boot, he and Parvati were the main discussion beyond the obvious boot of Randy.

2. After being set up in opposition in Episode 1, the editing has clearly played Rob as getting the better of Russell. Russell was shown as looking like a fool when Coach and Rob cornered him over Parvati. In fact, that episode still revolved more around Parvati than it did around Russell. The editing has shown multiple confessionals belittling Russell, something that NEVER happened last season.

3. The editing focused on Rob's alliance view of the search for the idol. It never even showed Russell looking for it other than to show Sandra catching him.

4. The editing has shown Danielle in nearly every discussion involving Rob's alliance. In fact, when Sandra came back to camp saying Russell had buried himself by looking for the idol, it was Danielle who replied off camera that Russell was gone because that was what they agreed to. Watch it again. It is obvious it is Danielle talking though she is not pictured.

So, people could explain the editing by saying Russell is getting the underdog edit, but I find that extremely hard to believe. 1) After the edit in S19 featured Russell to the exclusion of nearly everyone else, do you think they'd try to cast him as an underdog this time around? And 2) How could he pull it off? He and Parvati may still have an alliance, but it seems doubtful Danielle is still on board. Jerri and Coach have already pushed to get rid of Russell or Parvati, and Coach is tied to Rob at the hip. Sandra and Tyson also seem loyal to Rob. That makes 5 even if Danielle and Courtney weren't in Rob's alliance, which the editing has not shown Courtney and Russell talking even once.

Summation: I'm not a Russell hater. I think he should have won S19 hands down, no question. But what I see in the editing here is a guy with no ties to anyone else on his tribe who has already been discussed as a possible boot. He has made no connections with the men on his tribe, and the two women he aligned with, one appears to have jumped to the majority, and the other is smart enough to abandon him at the first sign of trouble. He is desperate to find the HII, and probably for good reason.

AND, don't you think its odd he hasn't found the HII yet? Do you think its coincidence that he found 3 idols last season and now can't find one even after given a clue? The Heroes appeared to find there's in about 20 minutes. So why is the HII at the Villian's beach so hard to find? Could Russell be set up for a fall? We'll see.

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"RE: S20 Heroes vs. Villians - Love/Loathe List- Ep 4"
Posted by Tublecane on 03-09-10 at 07:00 PM
"Russell was shown as looking like a fool when Coach and Rob cornered him over Parvati."

That's debatable. That Coach and Rob thought it was stupid is true. That the audience was supposed to think Coach and Rob were right, I don't know.

"The editing focused on Rob's alliance view of the search for the idol. It never even showed Russell looking for it other than to show Sandra catching him."

This would be where my underdog theory kicks in. If we see it from Russell's perspective, it's, "Whoopee, Russell found his fourth idol. Big deal." However, seeing it from Rob's perspective, it's, "What a boob." Then, bam!, Rob's alliance is in trouble.


"The editing has shown Danielle in nearly every discussion involving Rob's alliance. In fact, when Sandra came back to camp saying Russell had buried himself by looking for the idol, it was Danielle who replied off camera that Russell was gone because that was what they agreed to. Watch it again. It is obvious it is Danielle talking though she is not pictured."

So we've seen two things from Danielle. One was allying with Russell, which may or may not have been a lie. The other was being near Rob's alliance and replying to things off-camera, which easily could have been obfuscation. Or biding her time. There's nothing to suggest she isn't waiting to see which side is a better bet (a situation which Russell's idol could fix).

At best, that's a toss up. But, for me, in the absense of a vote to clearly delineate where everyone stands, I go for the most explicit evidence. And the scenes on the beach with Russell are more compelling than being an extra in Rob's scenes.

"After the edit in S19 featured Russell to the exclusion of nearly everyone else, do you think they'd try to cast him as an underdog this time around?"

Yes, I do. For the very simple reason that he was the only show in town in 19. This time around he's up against a person or two people are actually entertained by. If you're CBS and Boston Rob loses the Russell/Rob face-off, wouldn't you want to milk as much out of him as possible before he goes? There'll be time enough later for Russell.

Also, It's not as if it's just the underdog edit at work here. Looking at it from the other side, it's a "pride goeth before the fall" edit for Rob. Everything that was making for a "Russell is a boob" edit becomes "Russell was right all along" in retrospect, and everything that seemed "Robfather is in control again" becomes "oh how the mighty have fallen".

Not to say that's how it'll happen. That's just my guess. And I think the editing, if it doesn't back me up, at least doesn't preclude my predictions.

"Summation: I'm not a Russell hater. I think he should have won S19 hands down, no question."

I'm not a Russell lover, either, though I too wish he would've won. Rob has always been one of my favorites. I just don't think this is his time.

"AND, don't you think its odd he hasn't found the HII yet?"

Not necessarily. Maybe they want you to think it's odd, thereby heightening the surprise when he does find it. Then again, if he had found it soon after he got the clue, you'd think they'd show it so they could use it in the previews for next week. Then again again, what if next week is a Hero boot? You can see why they'd reveal his finding it next week so that the week after (or the week after that) could be when they tease it in the preview.


"RE: S20 Heroes vs. Villians - Love/Loathe List- Ep 4"
Posted by Tublecane on 03-09-10 at 07:10 PM
"He has made no connections with the men on his tribe"

There's something in the preview for next episode about him roping in Coach (which doesn't surprise me, as he's the best analogue for Shambo I can think of).

"and the two women he aligned with, one appears to have jumped to the majority"

That's unclear to me, but like I said, she could jump right back over if Russell has the idol.

"the other is smart enough to abandon him at the first sign of trouble"

Smart she is, but I'm not sure she has anywhere more attractive to go, for the time being.

By the way, I think there are signs the Russell alliance could pull in Jerri. She has a secret scene where she bitches about Rob's bossiness. If that happens, there's a very good chance Russell, Parvati, Danielle, Jerri, and Coach go up against Rob, Tyson, Sandra, and Courtney. Before you say Coach'll never vote against Rob, maybe they won't need Coach's vote. Maybe they have the idol, or maybe by the time they get to Rob, his alliance has lost a member (Courtney for being a challenge liability?). Or maybe if and when they get Jerri and/or neutralize Coach, Sandra's "anyone but me" mantra kicks in.


"RE: S20 Heroes vs. Villians - Love/Loathe List- Ep 4"
Posted by iltarion on 03-09-10 at 08:14 PM

IF Russell could get Coach and Jerri into his alliance AND get Parvati and Danielle to stay aboard, then yes, he could turn this whole thing around and be a long term player.
I just don't see that in the editing though. I might be willing to comprehend Coach flipping, but if Jerri was going to make a move that big, you would think we would see more of her. She has been invisible. Danielle and Parvati have also been pretty quiet for two girls who would then end up in the majority alliance.

I do see the Heroes continuing to lose though. That might be why there hasn't been a lot of strategical development of the Villians.

One would almost think the Villians would consider losing challenges at some point. I can definitely see Sandra wanting to do that to get rid of people.


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"RE: S20 Heroes vs. Villians - Love/Loathe List- Ep 4"
Posted by Belle Book on 03-10-10 at 04:30 PM
I'm not so sure she would want to do that -- or at least that she'd go for such a plan. Remember what happened in Pearl Islands -- her season? Burton suggested throwing a challenge and the Drake tribe -- Sandra's tribe -- went along with it, only to get rid of Burton! And then they lost two more Immunity Challenges! Throwing an Immunity Challenge isn't the smartest idea in the world -- to put it mildly.



"RE: S20 Heroes vs. Villians - Love/Loathe List- Ep 4"
Posted by iltarion on 03-10-10 at 05:09 PM

I hate it when tribes throw challenges, but I put Sandra's name out there exactly because of what happened in PI. Since she won that season, I doubt any lesson was learned.

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"RE: S20 Heroes vs. Villians - Love/Loathe List- Ep 4"
Posted by Tublecane on 03-10-10 at 06:11 PM
"Throwing an Immunity Challenge isn't the smartest idea in the world -- to put it mildly."

It was only ever a good idea once, under special circumstances in China, and even then it turned out to have been worthless. I'd say this time around it might possibly be a good idea for Parvati, and Parvati alone. That is, if she was planning on reuniting with the Micronesians and her "Survivor: Race Wars" buddy Candice.


"RE: S20 Heroes vs. Villians - Love/Loathe List- Ep 4"
Posted by Tublecane on 03-09-10 at 02:44 PM
LAST EDITED ON 03-09-10 AT 02:45 PM (EST)

"On a tribe of dolts like FU FU, that could maybe be overcome with the use of the idol, but on a tribe led by Rob and Sandra and full of players not exactly overwhelmed with awe at the idea of having the idol, it is more albatross than talisman."

Frankly, I think it's more doltish and amateurish to view the idol as an albatross. We can argue back and forth all day about whether it's better to keep the idol secret or carry it out in the open. One thing is certain: idols are at least as precarious for those who oppose them as those who hold them. Rob and Sandra won't make the same mistake Galu made last year when Kelly went home. But as Cirie demonstrated, even if you plan ahead, recognize the threat, cover all the variables, and perspicaciously split the vote, you can still lose. Which is why Sandra's bull-headed, straight-forward deterring tactics shouldn't be any reason to give Russell pause.


"RE: S20 Heroes vs. Villians - Love/Loathe List- Ep 4"
Posted by garcor on 03-07-10 at 09:58 AM
LAST EDITED ON 03-07-10 AT 10:10 AM (EST)


Rob - Does everything well and gives you great lines too. Would think remainder of villains think enough like Courtney to leave him in charge at least until merge. Appears to have Coach eating out of his hand. Would expect a woman's alliance (Parvati, Sandra, etc.) to go after him sometime around/after merge.

Tom - Is in much better shape a week later as ally Colby stays in game, Cirie is gone, JT has perhaps isolated himself, and promos show Candice wavering about shifting alliances. Still should be player everyone else on Heroes is afraid of leaving in game due to demonstrated ability to win it, but tribe needs someone to build around and don't see Amanda/James/Rupert/Candice/Colby filling that role.

Sandra - Most UTR good player ever? Likely to play Cirie role on villain's as game goes on.

Loyal players in need of a leader - Amanda, James, Rupert.

Scramblers - JT & Candice - Remains to be seen if JT benefits from switching alliances or has been a little too shifty for own good. See how good he really is at convincing other players he has their interests at heart.

Sidekicks - Colby and Coach. More entertaining drama from Coach.

Russell - Agree his idol hunting most likely contributes to his being voted off sooner rather than later. That and his obvious resentment he isn't focus of his tribe.

Tyson - Looks to be part of the Rob/Sandra/Coach grouping.

Who's left. Parvati hardly in episode, not much heard from other villain women either though Danielle competed hard in RC challenge.

Cirie - Outmanuevered by JT. Seems like a first. Denied being part of a Micronesia alliance after vote off. Not so much a matter of whether or not they were a solid voting bloc as their familiarity in working together. Expect if they made it to merge with Parvati still in the game and began working as an alliance within their existing alliances Cirie would not have turned down opportunity to play a part.


"RE: S20 Heroes vs. Villians - Love/Loathe List- Ep 4"
Posted by michel on 03-07-10 at 03:59 PM
1- JT: How many people give you great character development, strategy and a laugh all in 1 confessional? JT stands alone. I really liked his: "I know how everyone is voting except me." Funny and powerful all at once.

2- Sandra: Did I say I'm not enjoying this season's edit as much as I could? I guess I haven't really enjoyed the stories since China but I still hope for some nuggets. The best so far is the subtle but constant reminders that Sandra and Rob are tight. If she does cut his throat it would make a good story.

3- Tom: He's lucky that the alliance didn't react when they saw him talking to JT. Had they put 5 votes on Colby without telling JT, the idol was gone and so was his ally. Still great episode for Tom even if he continues to lose his matches, first against Coach and then Rob.
(I wonder if he was auditioning to replace Jeff when he asked James if he was basing his vote on wanting to win!!!!)

4- Russell: He doesn't need to adapt his game. This is his natural habitat. Of course, now he has to prove that they are all idiots because we've just been told he's in danger, an underdog.

5- Rob: Unfortunately Rob, there are idols now. Adapt or perish. The choice of reward prizes proves more than anything that this construction worker is making the decisions. Some don't always like that.

6- Parvati: One of the reasons I haven't enjoyed the editing is that I don't like lack of continuity. (Gabon was ridiculous: The onions didn't get to fight Ace after the merge and the Fangs we were supposed to find dumb became strong. In Tocantins, the cross-tribal alliance was also a big dud after all the investment made) Here, Instead of all of Coach's sob story, a reminder of Parvati's situation would have been needed.

7- Candice: Suddenly, she could find herself as the swing vote between Rupert, James and Amanda on one side, Tom, Colby and JT on the other. Will she use that power or will it burn her? I'm hoping she can find a nice spot in an alliance. I like players and she's one.

8- Jerri: With Coach in crisis, you'd expect his "girlfriend" would be shown talking to him but another story was dropped.

9- Colby: What did he do to save himself? Ride Tom's coat-tails. Lucky, very lucky.

10- Courtney:


"Burnett: When do I get to play?"


11- Danielle: Slip n' sliding her way by.

12- Rupert: He was right: Unless facing a desperate situation, you need to vote with your alliance to win the game. Losing Colby wasn't putting the Heroes in any more trouble than they are already in. It actually would have made Rupert more valuable. Stupid Jeff.

13- Amanda: The Sears commercial girl had a decision to make but she made the worse move possible: Telling Tom she was with him but going back on her word. I smell doom. She looked completely lost when Cirie confronted her, like nothing was working upstairs.

14- Tyson: Even when he gets to talk, Tyson has no story.

15- James: We know you want to win, James.

16- Coach: Bad acting.

Booted- Cirie: Her game enabled her to escape being the first boot in the older ladies' Casaya than in Shane's Casaya and she managed to get a F2 deal with Aras and one with Danielle. This time, she went from isolated in episode #1 to almost being the mastermind. It took a great move and an idol to eliminate her. There's nothing lacking in her strategic game.



"RE: S20 Heroes vs. Villians - Love/Loathe List- Ep 4"
Posted by iltarion on 03-07-10 at 09:14 PM

Yeah, of course, the attractive woman has no brains, I know.
Actually, Amanda's look was more like when you tell someone what you think is a good idea and they just go OFF on you about it. If you don't agree with them, there are basically only two options- look bamboozled by the whole thing, or start a fight over it.

Let me be the first to point out that Cirie would still be around, able to work her postmerge magic, if she had simply agreed to vote out Candice. Part of any strategy is knowing when to attack your enemy and when to wait. She should have known that a 3-3 split gave EVERYONE a chance to attack her or anyone else in her alliance. By losing her balance and so forcibly defending Candice, she sent a clear shot across JT's bow while leaving herself vulnerable to attack at the same time. Not good strategy.

Instead of playing her "control from the shadows" game, Cirie put herself out there as the strategical leader of her alliance. By doing so, she invited attack from whoever wanted that role for themselves. In her interviews, including her final words, Cirie made it clear that she knew JT was vying for that position. Obviously, as noted above, she erred by giving him the exact chance he needed to replace her. I think she probably knew that immediately after her torch was snuffed.

Yeah, her past performances made her a target already, but Tom, JT and Amanda aren't? Cirie made the target in neon and said, "Come shoot me."

Cirie started playing her game too soon. She should have waited. Hindsight's a byotch though.


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"RE: S20 Heroes vs. Villians - Love/Loathe List- Ep 4"
Posted by michel on 03-07-10 at 09:35 PM
I'm not the one saying Amanda isn't that smart. Cirie and Tom said it and they know her much better than you or I. Also, JT said Candice was very strategic, Cirie very dangerous but he never said anything about Amanda. That should tell you something.

Amanda has always played survivor like doing a painting by the numbers: Make an alliance and ride it to the end. She never knows how to adapt from it and was completely lost by Todd's, Parvati's and now JT's move, always being a step behind. As for her look, I'll find the vidcap to show you if you want to see her "The Lights are on but nobody's home" look.
(Funniest thing is that I really like Amanda!)

Cirie took a risk by stepping up but eliminating Candice wasn't the right move for her. Candice was her best ally and JT's target. As Cirie also said, had she voted out Candice she would have been next. It was better to try and take over.


"RE: S20 Heroes vs. Villians - Love/Loathe List- Ep 4"
Posted by garcor on 03-07-10 at 09:59 PM
Amanda does appear a worse player strategically with every season. Seemed like close to an equal partner with Todd in China. Was buried in Ozzy's shadow in Micronesia having to be rescued from it by Cirie and Parvati. So far this season she appears completely over her head. Not sure if the step up in quality of players in all star seasons has put her in over her head strategically, forcing her to be more dependent on strong strategic allies or if three seasons of survivor in relatively short order have burned her out mentally.

Like Amanda, and could still see her going far this season, but not in a leadership role. Hope three times is it for her on survivor; same with James, Rupert, & Colby.


"RE: S20 Heroes vs. Villians - Love/Loathe List- Ep 4"
Posted by iltarion on 03-08-10 at 04:39 PM
A key part of any strategy, whether it be in business, war, or a game of chess, is to put yourself in the right position. Amanda is as good as anyone in doing that.

Who did Tom go to when he needed to talk to "the powers that be"? Amanda.

Who did JT first talk about booting Candice to? Amanda.

Who did Cirie need to convince to not boot Candice? Amanda.

It was Amanda who was at the center of the James-Rupert, JT, Cirie-Candice alliance. Make a web diagram of the tribe. Amanda is at its heart.

That all being said- if the Heroes lose another challenge, I see the men sticking together and Candice or Amanda going home. Basically, whoever JT would rather be without. We'll see.


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"RE: S20 Heroes vs. Villians - Love/Loathe List- Ep 4"
Posted by michel on 03-08-10 at 06:49 PM
Great point, Iltarion about Amanda being at the center of the alliance but I think you are overestimating it just a bit. JT, Tom and Cirie all realized they had to talk to Amanda for 1 reason: She held THREE votes. James and Rupert are dumb at strategy and they both know it. Rupert's game has always been tagging along with a smarter woman: 1st Sandra, next JLew (good grief!) and now Amanda. James is still holding on to the same apple even if it's rotten by now. So Amanda's smarter than Rupert and James but does it make her smart? More like 1 half-wit sharing a brain with two stumps (I couldn't quite make Cesternino's quotes fit in but it's close enough).

Amanda was controlling a section of the tribe, she was not the center of gravity. JT and Cirie were the ones struggling to grab that center of gravity.

You write: "A key part of any strategy, whether it be in business, war, or a game of chess, is to put yourself in the right position. Amanda is as good as anyone in doing that."

Amanda has been very good at that, I agree. As a player, I put her miles ahead of Stephenie for example. Amanda's stronger and smarter. But I'd point out that Katie Gallagher and Dreamz put themselves in the right positions but with no chances of winning (I'd add Clay but the angry leprechaun came only 1 vote short). So the key part of any strategy is to know how to finish.

Before you say Cirie doesn't know how to finish, I'll remind you that she would have won EI if she had won the fire challenge (she was VERY close) and she had S16 wrapped up until Jeff said: "No F3 for you, we do F2".

As for what Tom thought of Amanda, we heard what he said when he voted Cirie: “Loveliest person but you are way too good at wrapping some of these really weak minds around your little finger.” Really weak minds...



"RE: S20 Heroes vs. Villians - Love/Loathe List- Ep 4"
Posted by iltarion on 03-09-10 at 03:42 AM
LAST EDITED ON 03-09-10 AT 03:45 AM (EST)

Well, my man Tom is a little biased there, right? If Amanda is strategizing with him, he probably lauds her intelligence. Because she is trying to vote him out, she is an idiot. Plus, he'd see it that way considering Amanda agreed to vote Candice with him, then she talks with Cirie and JT tells Tom that Amanda changed her mind. But like I said before, what choice did Amanda have? Her main alliance was with Cirie, James and Rupert. All 3 of them decide to vote for Tom and Colby, what is Amanda going to do? Did we ever hear Amanda agree with Cirie? No. Ultimately, she voted that way, but only after James and Rupert made it clear how they were voting. The only thing Amanda could have done was abandon them and go with JT. She might have if JT had talked to her, but he probably didn't. Remember even JT told Tom, "Amanda wants to," as in, vote for Candice. Cirie ended up grabbing control of her alliance. JT was the one that acted in response. Props to him for a gutsy move.

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"RE: S20 Heroes vs. Villians - Love/Loathe List- Ep 4"
Posted by garcor on 03-09-10 at 06:59 AM
Certainly agree that in three seasons Amanda has been the type of person other players want as an ally or friend. Don't think she's at all stupid despite the comments, but she does seem to lack something; whether its a willingness to do whatever it takes to win or the ability to put together a season long strategy and then explain it coherently.

"RE: S20 Heroes vs. Villians - Love/Loathe List- Ep 4"
Posted by KuwabaraTheMan on 03-08-10 at 00:24 AM
1. JT: He definitely made a gusty move, and time will tell if it works out for him or not. I'm really impressed with the way he's been playing this season.

2. Rob: He seems to be in control of his tribe right now, and he's even having people spy on other members of the tribe. He'll need to get rid of Russell soon, in order to keep him from getting the idol.

3. Sandra: She seems just as much at the heart of the Villains tribe as Rob, except for the fact that she's more under the radar and probably won't attract a lot of attention against her.

4. Tyson: He had a pretty good episode, both in his conversation with Coach and he got the decisive point in the Reward Challenge. I think he might get pretty far.

5. Candice: I'm liking her more than I did in Cook Islands, so she gets props for that. It might be her neck on the chopping block soon if the Heroes don't win a couple of challenges, however.

6. Rupert: He had the defining moment of Tribal Council, and he seemed to be the one member of the alliance who saw getting rid of Candice as an idiotic move.

7. Amanda: She was a bit too wishy-washy in this episode, but maybe Cirie getting the boot will cause her to step up her game. She at least managed to avoid being the one to get targeted.

8. Coach: He was a bit endearing in this episode, even if he's still completely deluded.

9. Danielle: Still in the middle of the pack.

10. James: He's still good for some entertaining commentary, but that's about all he gave this week.

11. Colby: Got saved by JT, but otherwise seems completely helpless this time around.

12. Russell: He may say his tribe mates are idiots, but he's the idiot who was so obvious about looking for the idol after they said not to. He should have just waited for an opportune moment and slipped away.

13. Courtney: She's doing her Courtney thing.

14. Jerri: She hasn't really gotten much attention lately.

15. Parvati: She was in this episode, I think?

16. Tom: A pity he had to find the idol.

Cirie: I'll miss her. She was always entertaining and was a great strategist, but splitting the votes is always dangerous precisely for the reason that now you only need one person to flip.