URL: http://community.realitytvworld.com/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/rtvw2/community/dcboard.cgi
Forum: DCForumID4
Thread Number: 4628
[ Go back to previous page ]
Original Message
"Todd Is Sole Survivor"
Posted by Shulman on 12-17-07 at 08:56 AM
How sad that a deceitful, back-stabbing player like Todd won the million dollars. While the others in the final also told lies and turned on their allies, Todd did this from day 1. He used people and tricked them in a very sneaky way. If being a sneak and a liar is necessary, then he deserved to win. Remember Tom the fireman who won several years ago, while he also was tricky and deceitful at times, he kept his integrity, while Todd did not. Anyway, I felt that Denise or Amanda should have won. Courtney was too lazy and just rode on the coatttails of other players.
Table of contents
Messages in this discussion
"RE: Todd Is Sole Survivor"
Posted by Estee on 12-17-07 at 09:20 AM
I have no major objections to Todd's having won. I have a minor one: I really wanted someone to call him on all the smirking he did at TC whenever one of his plays worked out. But Todd's one of the few people to go actively playing the game in a classic style and not get clobbered by the jury for daring to actually do something. We see far too much 'How dare you try to win!' from jury members -- we certainly got it from Denise last night -- and as Jeff said during the Reunion, there are a lot of times when people punish you for playing. (Vecepia over Neleh, anyone?)

I see Todd's game as a cross between Richard's and Rob Cesterino's: form a core alliance, get rid of the challenge and jury threats, backstab where needed -- then admit everything while saying 'But it got me here, and it would have gotten you here -- I'm just the one who went through with it.' He's a little too self-satisfied with his own game, and I pretty much have to believe Todd's greatest hero is himself -- but at least he worked for it. Courtney went with 'I'm useless: pay me.' Amanda tried to find middle ground, then dug a hole in it. Todd, as he said, came in with a strategy and rode it all the way through, following a well-marked path through the game that no one around him was intelligent enough to block.

Todd earned his win. That doesn't always happen.

"RE: Todd Is Sole Survivor"
Posted by Snidget on 12-17-07 at 09:43 AM
I'm not sure you can win with a completely honest game (never lie, never blindside someone, never say something to a person you plan to vote out to make them feel safer than they really are so they don't turn the game on you, etc).

I don't object to Todd because he was honest that he was planning on doing what it takes to survive each week and get to the end and if that included using people in the game or blindsiding the people you need to get out who could beat you in challenges or personality so be it. I also think his "the relationship was real" thing was actually honest for him. I think he did like people and worked on getting to know them even if he knew that for him to win he had to vote them out.

Amanda seemed to hope being cute and the doe eyes would make everyone forget she was doing the same thing Todd was, just letting him take the fall for it. Heck if I'd had been her playing her game I would have owned up to using Todd as the bad guy and being the one to keep him on task when he got paranoid and wanted to switch things up 15 different ways in 14 minutes time. Without Amanda I'm not sure Todd would have made it to the end. She needed him to be the goat at the end, she just didn't play the final tribal council in a way that made her look good in comparison. I think had people were inclined to vote for her, but Todd being more honest about being there to play they game got him votes over her.

Courtney and Denise might have had chance if they really had done the hide under the radar UNTIL they had a big move to make and then masterminded it and made it. Otherwise all you get is I got here because I did what they told me to and didn't do anything to make anyone feel that I was anything but their patsy. Then again, I would guess that those who don't like anyone who lies at all in the game as a winner wouldn't like them winning if they did that.

I know I'd rather vote for someone who was honest that this was their game and this is how they played it and thank goodness it worked than someone who can't own up to it and covers up their game by being cute and pull the "doe eye" routine when confronted about it and can't seem to make a good case for the things she did claim to be her move.

At least Courtney was completely honest about her lack of game which is why I can live with her getting more votes than Amanda.

"Can it be done clean?"
Posted by Estee on 12-17-07 at 09:57 AM
LAST EDITED ON 12-17-07 AT 10:05 AM (EST)

I'm not sure you can win with a completely honest game (never lie, never blindside someone, never say something to a person you plan to vote out to make them feel safer than they really are so they don't turn the game on you, etc).

This once again brings up the idea of the 'pure' win -- carry your tribe through the group stage, then win every last Immunity all the way to F3/F2/Whatever. You never have to backstab anyone: you just go along with the group's wishes for the evening. You're never at risk, so you never have to lie --

-- but there's no guarantee that you'd get anywhere in front of the jury with it, because some people just don't like challenge hogs and the jealousy factor would really be in play. Tom may have come closest to this kind of victory -- but he didn't quite pull it off.

Play pure -- and all you might hear at the end was 'You never had to really play.'

"RE: Can it be done clean?"
Posted by Snidget on 12-17-07 at 10:03 AM
Yep, even if you just go with the crowd you could be seen as being deceitful if anyone at any time was blindsided. (unless you can show you didn't know they were going, either)

The, "you knew I was going and didn't tell me," can generate just as much hate/bitter as a more blatent lie/backstab.

"RE: Todd Is Sole Survivor"
Posted by emydi on 12-17-07 at 02:43 PM
I agree, estee.

What I really liked was that the jurors weren't "Bitter Bettys" and they voted for Rob instead of Amber.

I actually remembered why I liked James at the beginning...he is just a genuine person. I still agree with Jiffy that he made the worst blunder in the game...but he had class the whole way...It didn't bother me when he won the money we all knew he would win..at least it was from Sprint and not EPMB like Rupert and Denise (is 4th place prize money $50,000.00?--I know 3rd is $85K. I think EPMB was evening out the money probably bc Denise was 2nd in the votes to James)ore than

"RE: Todd Is Sole Survivor"
Posted by Bebo on 12-18-07 at 04:51 PM
>What I really liked was that the jurors weren't "Bitter Bettys"
>and they voted for Rob instead of Amber.

Exactly. Todd had the right jury.

While Denise voted bitter, there were enough people on that jury who remembered it was a game and were able to admire being beaten by someone who played it better. And I had more respect for those jury members who were willing to put hurt feelings and vote for whom they thought played best. They were proud of how they played the game, and wanted to vote for someone else who had that pride. They didn't want to be beaten by someone who was clueless how she got to the finals or apologetic about getting there.

"RE: Todd Is Sole Survivor"
Posted by aquariaqueen on 12-17-07 at 10:01 AM
I am not angry or shocked that Todd won, I am more angry and shocked that they took him to final 3 and thought they could still win!!!!


A Blessed Christmas season to all who welcome the Newborn King into their lives.

"RE: Todd Is Sole Survivor"
Posted by Tazluli on 12-17-07 at 11:20 AM
I don't think that Todd was really all that deceitful. At one point or another, he let people know his strategy. He was pulling people in all the time. It seemed to me that a good portion of the people knew that James had the Hidden Immunity Idols.

He always seemed to be strategizing and playing the game - right to the end by telling John Robert that he thought JR was a bigger threat.

I don't see how anyone can be 100% honest in this game and still win it. I never saw it.

"RE: Todd Is Sole Survivor"
Posted by Scarlett O Hara on 12-17-07 at 11:54 AM
LAST EDITED ON 12-17-07 AT 11:54 AM (EST)

IMHO, Todd is the best player of this game yet! From day one he was playing the game and playing to win. Courtney and Amanda were lucky enough that Todd picked them to go along for the ride on his coattails! Amanda was quite simply another Becky Lee, IMHO. You do not go into this game seriously to win it if you can't be a little deceitful. After all, it is to "Outwit, outsmart and outplay," isn't it?

Todd was also, I might add, one of the most eloquent survivors I have heard yet with his responses to the jurors at the Final Tribal Council. He outplayed the Pokerplayer. He compared his gameplay to the season's mantra of the "Art of War" and he was even complimentary to his two sidekicks. He was brilliant!

And in the end, Todd deserved the win and I, for one, was cheering for him the whole way! Woot! Woot!

Perhaps the best and most entertaining aspect about the whole season was that most of us Spoilers were blindsided by EPMB including Dani Bleu over at Survivor Skills and TDT. His end-game misdirection was brilliant as well! This season will most certainly go down as one of the best!

"RE: Todd Is Sole Survivor"
Posted by CattyChat on 12-17-07 at 03:03 PM
What Scarlett has so eloquently said goes double for me. Todd played a great game, had a great time while doing it and I enjoyed this season immensely in large part because of Todd.


CONGRATULATIONS TODD. I'm glad your dream came true in such a huge way.
Thanks for helping make Survivor China so much fun to watch.

"RE: Todd Is Sole Survivor"
Posted by drich61 on 12-17-07 at 08:21 PM
I couldn't agree more with you Scarlett. Every other player knew Todd's game from the beginning, and wanted to be a part of his plans. Instead of playing their own games.

Todd's Final TC performance was the greatest in the history of this show. While Amanda got 1 vote too many for the worst Final TC performance ever.

Any other outcome would have just been wrong, luckily this jury saw that and did the right thing. This season will most certainly go down as one of the best!


"RE: Todd Is Sole Survivor"
Posted by leenga on 12-17-07 at 01:35 PM
>How sad that a deceitful, back-stabbing
>player like Todd won the
>million dollars. While the others
>in the final also told
>lies and turned on their
>allies, Todd did this from
>day 1. He used people
>and tricked them in a
>very sneaky way. If being
>a sneak and a liar
>is necessary, then he deserved
>to win. Remember Tom the
>fireman who won several years
>ago, while he also was
>tricky and deceitful at times,
>he kept his integrity, while
>Todd did not. Anyway, I
>felt that Denise or Amanda
>should have won. Courtney was
>too lazy and just rode
>on the coatttails of other
>players.

that is exactly why Todd won and IMHO that is what the game is about!!! - there is no room for the word integrity in this game and I say thank god that word was actually not mentioned at all in the finale!!

"RE: Todd Is Sole Survivor"
Posted by Wacko Jacko on 12-17-07 at 04:25 PM
Justice was served. The best player won. Denise? Courtney? The only playing Denise made was deciding if she wanted to follow Todd or follow Pei-Ghee. She did nothing to deserve the game. As for Courtney, only thing she did was survived longer than the others thought she would. I am glad that the players finally see Survivor for what it is….a game. No serious Survivor player ever would’ve voted for Denise…because she needs the money more than others.

As far as Todd being deceitful, I really think he was pretty loyal. The pecking order went down just as one should’ve expected. Ok, James was backstabbed. In order to get him out he had to be. James took both idols and 7 burgers and got what he deserved. If someone like Jean-Robert really thought they would go to the final four with Todd they were dilussional. As for Denise, she came across as the biggest crybaby ever on Survivor. Look Todd, Amanda, Courtney…none of them lied to Denise. Denise made it to the final four and the loyalty stopped there.

I am very thankful Todd won. If anything it was a shame Courtney came in second but that is very minor.

"RE: Todd Is Sole Survivor"
Posted by michel on 12-17-07 at 04:58 PM
>"How sad that a deceitful, back-stabbing player like Todd won the million dollars."

Isn't that what the "Outwit" part of the game is all about?

Anyway, Todd backstabbed James who had decided to keep both idols that Todd had given to him. Todd backstabbed Jean Robert who came to Todd on day #1 and threatened him. Deceiving poker players is exactly what JR does himself every day. Denise was voting Todd, was he to let her have her way?

And, I know it will get a response but Tom's best moves happened when he deceived Gregg and Caryn.


"RE: Todd Is Sole Survivor"
Posted by agman on 12-17-07 at 06:50 PM

I have to say that Todd was not one of my favorites this year. He really got on my nerves and I didn't want him to win. Having said that, I need to add this. He deserved to win more than anyone else. He played a great game, stuck with his game plan, and he really carried the action of the game. I feel that with the exception of Amanda conspiring to get James out, Todd is the only one who really showed any original thinking.
Courtney, Amanda, and especially Danniel were, IMO just along for the ride. Todd did an excellent job addressing the jury, and he nailed Amanda at the last TC. Like him or not, I have to congratulate Todd for a game well-played!



Have a merry Christmas


"RE: Todd Is Sole Survivor"
Posted by ohmyheck on 12-17-07 at 08:19 PM
I completely disagree. The point of the game is 'Outwit, Outplay, Outlast'. If Amanda and Denise couldn't handle that, they should have gone to bible camp.
"RE: Todd Is Sole Survivor"
Posted by Sunny_Bunny on 12-17-07 at 09:18 PM
I have to agree with most of the other posters who have said Todd played a good game. Not a great one, however, because it was Amanda who kept him from botching up his plans when he panicked. He over analyzed things on more than one occasion and she kept him calm enough not to blow himself right out of the water.

Having said that, Amanda botched it on two fronts. 1) She failed to bring that all up at TC. Instead of focusing on Todd's "betrayal" she should have turned it around on him and told everyone what she had been doing the last 38 days. Had she done that, she might have at least beaten out the stick for second place, and could possibly have won the game. 2) She should have taken up Denise on her offer, voted out Todd, and still told everyone what she had been doing to keep him from thwarting his own plan. This may have given her an edge with votes as well.



"RE: Todd Is Sole Survivor"
Posted by garcor on 12-18-07 at 01:19 PM
LAST EDITED ON 12-18-07 AT 09:06 PM (EST)


Todd certainly earned it. I do think Todd/Amanda were more or less equal partners for most of the game (rare for Survivor.)
But Todd played a much better end game, and started playing it sooner. He took advantage of the fact Denise was voting against him to pass off dealing with her on Amanda and Courtney. Amanda did it badly and lost Denise's vote.

At final TC Todd passed off every move he made (even mistakes like targeting JR before James and likely signs of weakness like not pressing James for one of the two idols) as strategic. Todd came up with an argument for the jury that Amanda might have used if Todd didn't claim it first; leaving Amanda to look for another approach, which she didn't succeed at doing.

Amanda did come across as more comfortable indirectly controlling and appeared to struggle once she was in the position of power (after winning immunity at final four.) Think Todd's victory was more about what Todd did though than about what Amanda did not do.

Reminded me a little of Australia in that the player who appeared in the stronger position at final TC was unable to articulate why they should win.

Not sure if Courtney would have voted for Todd?


"RE: Todd Is Sole Survivor"
Posted by iltarion on 12-20-07 at 05:53 AM
First of all, how does "outwit" mean "lie and deceive"? So, to "outwit" someone you have to lie and deceive them? I don't agree.
I also don't see how the game is supposedly "impossible" to play without lying or deceiving. Is it more difficult to play that way? Sure, but it is false to say it is "impossible".
However, I don't have a problem with the way Todd played. He stuck with his alliance in the end. It isn't like he was Rob C or JFP and stabbed everyone in the back whenever the wind shifted. And I also agree that he played the best strategical game and did the most in the game, no doubt.
However, I don't think he was the best overall player until FTC. Remember that Amanda won 3 challenges in a row, including the last two ICs, and it was Amanda that had the opportunity to vote off Todd if she wanted. Todd never had the opportunity to vote off Amanda. Amanda played the best end game and had the power at the end. Todd was sweating it out, big time. I think in a lot of ways, because of Todd's paranoia, and because of his inability to win a challenge, Amanda was the better player.
BUT, Todd did have possibly the best FTC ever, while Amanda had one of the worst. This completely backs up what I've always said about Rob C or JFP making the FTC. I believe both of them could have won because they were smart guys who knew how to manipulate people, regardless of the fact that they had backstabbed everyone. Todd finally used the exact argument Colby and Rob should have used in their FTCs. Hey, I may have lied to you, but they wrote your name down too. So they are just as culpable as me, but at least I was the one that stuck my neck out. And now I'm admitting that's what I did and why.
It was a huge mistake for Amanda to admit she hatched the plot to get rid of James, and it seemed like she just couldn't help but say the wrong thing in both the last TCs. She should have pointed out that Todd didn't win a single IC, and it was originally his idea to get rid of JR and then James. And she should have pointed out that the only reason Todd was still around was because SHE had allowed him to be, not the other way around! Lastly, when everyone was saying, well, you lied too, what is the difference? She should have said the difference is that I feel bad about it and he does not, which he readily admits. She lied when she strategically HAD to, while lying was always part of his strategy from Day 1.
I really think this was Amanda's to lose, and she did lose it at FTC. Great performance by Todd though. I was glad he made it there because I figured he would do a great job, and he did.
Before we call Todd's FTC the best of all time though, let's consider the fact that the juries are much more jaded to lies and deceit now than they were 10 seasons ago. I don't think a jury would have accepted the "deception was my game plan" reasoning if it was Season 5.
Shame on those who voted for Courtney, who did absolutely nothing but be useless to make the FTC. And shame on Denise for being hypocritical at the end. I don't remember her being so honest with James, Erik and PG when they got voted off. I don't know why Amanda ever told her she wouldn't write her name down though. Just another fatefully stupid move by Amanda.

"RE: Todd Is Sole Survivor"
Posted by Snidget on 12-20-07 at 07:17 AM
First of all, how does "outwit" mean "lie and deceive"? So, to "outwit" someone you have to lie and deceive them? I don't agree.

What would you consider "outwit"?

Anytime you engineer someone's ouster without doing it right in their face there is usually some lie or deception going on. It may be a lie of omission (not saying something) or discussing their ouster when they are not around. That to me still is deception.

About all that is left for outwit is doing better at the puzzle challenges.

Your mileage may vary.

"RE: Todd Is Sole Survivor"
Posted by Corvis on 12-20-07 at 09:40 AM
You could outwit someone by being really witty and funny and making them laugh so much they don't see you sneak in for the win ...

Heh.

Yeah, outwit means deceive to get what you want.




"RE: Todd Is Sole Survivor"
Posted by XXL Survivor on 12-20-07 at 11:00 AM
I have no problem with Todd, but 1) he really believes he's some tactical genius and he is not and 2) the smirking is really annoying at tribal council.

His decision to oust JR instead of the more dangerous James was a major blunder of which he was lucky to get away with. If not for Amanda later taking the risk to oust James, Todd would not have won a million.

"RE: Todd Is Sole Survivor"
Posted by agman on 12-24-07 at 11:34 AM
>You could outwit someone by being
>really witty and funny and
>making them laugh so much
>they don't see you sneak
>in for the win ...
>
>
>Heh.
>
>Yeah, outwit means deceive to get
>what you want.
>
>
>
>
>

You could also mesmerize them with your awesome siggie collection so that they don't see you comming! LOL


"RE: Todd Is Sole Survivor"
Posted by iltarion on 12-20-07 at 05:45 PM
Outwit means to surpass in wisdom, i.e. outsmart. When you deceive someone, are you really outsmarting them? Or are you just relying on their trust in you? If I lie to my wife about where I was last night, am I "outwitting" her? Hahaha... No. I am taking advantage of her trust in me and her belief that I would be honest. There is nothing witty about it.
The most ingenious player would be one who would win without having to deceive anyone.
I think Yul almost fits this bill because Jonathan is the only person I think you can say he deceived, and since Jonathan had mutinied and turned on Yul first, I don't see how you can blame him.
Yul outwitted Ozzy by buying Adam's vote. Without it, Ozzy would have won. That is truly OUTWITTING someone, i.e. using your smarts better than they. Again, there was no deception in it. Adam knew what he was getting when he entered the agreement. Yul could not outplay Ozzy, as neither could 99% of any survivor that has ever played, but he used outwit to beat him.
Again, I am just saying outwit does not necessarily mean lie and deceive, and I scoff at this rationalization for immorality, which is basically what it is. However, I'm not riding a high horse here either. Rob M was one of my favorite players of all time, afterall. As I said, I don't have a problem with the way Todd played. He stuck with the original alliance he made and made only the moves he had to, or Amanda told him to. He definitely played the best strategical game of everyone. I do think Amanda outplayed him though and was in control of the game until the power switched to the jury. Todd took advantage of his Survivor experience and knew exactly what to say at TC to defend his strategy. It worked. He was borderline brilliant. I just wish he wasn't so full of himself about it. Hahaha...

"RE: Todd Is Sole Survivor"
Posted by Snidget on 12-20-07 at 06:32 PM
LAST EDITED ON 12-20-07 AT 06:34 PM (EST)

I think it is difficult to not have at least a lie of omission when the person you are planning on voting off asks you point blank what is going on.

Would you go, "Yes, we are planning on blindsiding you tonight, sorry," or would you do what most of the people accused of deceiving and say "I don't know," or "I haven't made up my mind," or any of the other things like that.

If you play with all your cards on the table in front of everyone all the time you become someone that can't ever be trusted in the game by anyone. I mean if you make an alliance and then go back into camp to announce it so no one can accuse you of hiding anything you aren't likely to be asked to be on anyone's side at any time from then on.

Going off where others can't hear you while you make plans could be seen as deceitful as you aren't saying to everyone what you are saying to one. You are keeping something to yourself.

That is the point I was making. Every time you don't tell someone something when asked, or do not do all your business in front of the whole group it is not completely and totally honest.


Hall's Decked by Tribe!

"RE: Todd Is Sole Survivor"
Posted by agman on 12-20-07 at 07:05 PM

I have to agree with snidget on this one. I also need to say that this is a game and because of the nature of the game, you have to do and say thing you may not normally do or say in or der to win. It's hard to watch sometimes, but I think they game is set up like that so this very thing will happen. It's good for ratings.


ringing in the new year with Smokey's mom

"RE: Todd Is Sole Survivor"
Posted by Snidget on 12-20-07 at 07:47 PM
After all a lot of times the "lies and deceit" that get people in trouble with the jury aren't the blatant ones, but the ones where you just didn't give them the whole story.

The thing with players like Todd is everyone seems to figure out from the get go they are schemers who will lie. I don't think any of them really expected anything else out of him (or some of the other schemers that get to the end). I think that is why they often end up winning.

Owning up to the playing people also helps. The people in the game seem to be much more willing to vote for the guy that lies but admits that that was their strategy than someone who tries to pretend all the things they didn't say and all the subtle ways they misled people were not lies and deception and that they played the game with integrity.

"RE: Todd Is Sole Survivor"
Posted by agman on 12-20-07 at 08:29 PM

>Owning up to the playing people
>also helps. The people
>in the game seem to
>be much more willing to
>vote for the guy that
>lies but admits that that
>was their strategy than someone
>who tries to pretend all
>the things they didn't say
>and all the subtle ways
>they misled people were not
>lies and deception and that
>they played the game with
>integrity.

I think you just hit the crux of the issue. When you don't expecty much from someoone except lies and schemes, you are much more willing to frogive them when they own up to it. It's kind of like the person you don't expect much from so when he does better than usual(even though it's not great) you more likely to accept it. I guess it's like lowering your standards.

"RE: Todd Is Sole Survivor"
Posted by michel on 12-20-07 at 09:45 PM
>"The most ingenious player would be one who would win without having to deceive anyone. I think Yul almost fits this bill."

Yul was admirable but did he really play Survivor? He never went to a tribal council with the risk of being voted out and they never told anyone before the F4 that 3 people would face the jury. Yul only deceived Jonathan but he never needed to deceive anyone else.

"RE: Todd Is Sole Survivor"
Posted by garcor on 12-23-07 at 10:10 AM
To me that's a testament of how good Yul played. That he could be so heavily involved in decision making and yet not have anyone put together a workable way of taking him out.

E.g. like Brian, who I don't think was ever in danger of being voted out. Only the game was more complicated by Cook Islands, what with a tribal reshuffling, a merge, an II (which Yul appeared to find in record time), and a mutiny.

"RE: Todd Is Sole Survivor"
Posted by Snidget on 12-23-07 at 11:18 AM
LAST EDITED ON 12-23-07 AT 11:19 AM (EST)

I'm not sure if Yul would have outwitted people as well without the Immunity Idol.

Having that in your pocket, IMO, can change substantially what you need to do to get through all the tribal councils. That the other people weren't willing or able to engineer getting rid of him anyway doesn't necessarily mean he was better at the game than other winners.

Often it seems we get a mix of players and followers and often the followers in the game won't do anything to shake it up no matter how much it may benefit them in the end (see Denise).

"RE: Todd Is Sole Survivor"
Posted by michel on 12-23-07 at 01:31 PM
LAST EDITED ON 12-23-07 AT 01:36 PM (EST)


>"That he could be so heavily involved in decision making and yet not have anyone put together a workable way of taking him out."

As Snidget pointed out, it wasn't because of Yul's strategy that Yul was never in danger, it was because of the HII. Without the idol, Yul is voted out at F9.

All the winners could've been voted out at one point or another except Yul and that was only because Billy sent him to Exile Island in episode #2. Yul could sit back and wait to see the votes and then he could've pulled out the idol. There wasn't a single TC that Yul could've been voted out. That's not survivor. The easiest plan to take him out was to do what Casaya did: Wait for the HII to expire. It never did. Yul got a free ride to the jury. That's not survivor.

Did Yul play Survivor or win a "Good Guy" contest?



"RE: Todd Is Sole Survivor"
Posted by iltarion on 12-23-07 at 08:15 PM
Hahaha... well, that is an easy one, since Yul did indeed play Survivor and won. That is a matter of fact and not opinion. You can call it whatever you want, but he played the same game that everyone else did and won, beating one of the best competitors of all time. The fact that he did it without getting threatened only makes it that more impressive.
Getting back on the original topic, I also believe someone, like Todd, can more easily get away with deception if they are likable. It might not have mattered considering the pathetic nature of the jury, but Rob M might have had a chance to win if he had been more likable. I think Rob C or Rafe would have probably won if they made the finals because they were likable, regardless of how many people they deceived. Whereas I still think JFP wins if he makes the finals, but if he wouldn't have won the vote, it would have been because he wasn't likable, not because he deceived everyone.

>

"RE: Todd Is Sole Survivor"
Posted by Flowerpower on 12-29-07 at 04:46 PM
There wasn't a single TC that Yul could've been voted out. That's not survivor. The easiest plan to take him out was to do what Casaya did: Wait for the HII to expire. It never did. Yul got a free ride to the jury. That's not survivor.

Wow, well said, michel! Totally have to agree with this! We all know who the most deserving player was that season...OZZY. He made it to final 3 with his own talents, both physical, winning all of the challenges, and mental, even winning the challenge that ended with the hardest Survivor puzzle ever, handily beating the smart one, Yul!


"RE: Todd Is Sole Survivor"
Posted by dabeat on 12-30-07 at 03:29 PM
I'd be careful with the Ozzy praise. Adam gave him and the others a shot to take out Yul's HII at F5 and they rejected the offer. Also, while it's true Yul was able to skate by tribal councils thanks to the HII, it lessened his need to actually challenge Ozzy in the regular immunity challenges. He commented afterwards that he played just hard enough to be sure Ozzy would win. It would have been pretty stupid and viewed as selfish if Yul ever showed up with two immunities. He'd have exposed himself and his strategy in having to answer if and to whom he'd give the HI away.
"RE: Todd Is Sole Survivor"
Posted by garcor on 01-01-08 at 10:30 AM
While challenges are important, politics are more important. To control the game you control the voting at TC. Yul controlled the vote virtually the entire game.
"RE: Todd Is Sole Survivor"
Posted by michel on 01-01-08 at 01:55 PM
LAST EDITED ON 01-01-08 AT 02:04 PM (EST)

>"While challenges are important, politics are
>more important. To control
>the game you control the
>voting at TC."

I completely agree.

>"Yul controlled the vote virtually the
>entire game."

Yes, and I do think Yul would've been a great winner if he had to really work for it. Look at what happened in China: Who controlled the vote at the F4? Amanda. Why? Because she had won immunity. Todd was the best at politics but he didn't control his own destiny at that TC. Yul was continually in Amanda's F4 position and not because he won challenges after challenges like Tom did. No, only because Billy sent him to Exile Island on Day 6 and Yul was able to decipher an enigma.

Without the HII, Yul is most likely out at F9. With the HII but facing smart players, Yul is most likely out at F6 or F5. With the HII but without the F3 facing the Jury, Ozzy likely takes him out after the F3 challenge. Yul got a free pass. I wish we would have had the opportunity to see him apply a strategy while being in danger. All the other winners were in danger at some point and used strategy, not a HII to save themselves.


>"I'd be careful with the Ozzy praise. Adam gave him and the others a shot to take out Yul's HII at F5 and they rejected the offer. Also, while it's true Yul was able to skate by tribal councils thanks to the HII, it lessened his need to actually challenge Ozzy in the regular immunity challenges. He commented afterwards that he played just hard enough to be sure Ozzy would win. It would have been pretty stupid and viewed as selfish if Yul ever showed up with two immunities."

As I said, Ozzy's best shot was to wait for the F3 challenge. It's not his fault if the rules were changed. Also, Sundra was the one most responsible for foiling that plan.

At F9 and F8, Yul was not even close to have done just enough to be sure Ozzy would win. While I agree he was second to Ozzy at the F7 and the F6, the crucial immunities were F5 and F4:

If Adam wins F5, he is more of a jury threat than Ozzy because of all the Old-Raro on the jury. Yul had to be sure Ozzy or himself won the F5 immunity, yet Adam was the one that was a close second to Ozzy.

If Yul had won the F4 immunity, he was assuring himself of the million. In that one, he had no reason to let Ozzy beat him. Yul even let Sundra beat him. That wasn't impressive at all.


"RE: Todd Is Sole Survivor"
Posted by garcor on 01-02-08 at 08:42 PM
LAST EDITED ON 01-02-08 AT 08:45 PM (EST)

My only comment is that Yul controlled the vote before the merge primarily because he was the leader of his alliance, not because he had the hidden II. Now whether he would have made it to final TC without the II is another matter. Seeing how Yul used the idol to flip Jonathan and give his alliance the edge in numbers, its possible Adam, Candace or Jonathan might have won if Yul had not found the II.

"RE: Todd Is Sole Survivor"
Posted by dabeat on 01-07-08 at 08:04 PM
LAST EDITED ON 01-07-08 AT 08:04 PM (EST)

As I said, Ozzy's best shot was to wait for the F3 challenge. It's not his fault if the rules were changed. Also, Sundra was the one most responsible for foiling that plan.

At F9 and F8, Yul was not even close to have done just enough to be sure Ozzy would win. While I agree he was second to Ozzy at the F7 and the F6, the crucial immunities were F5 and F4:

If Adam wins F5, he is more of a jury threat than Ozzy because of all the Old-Raro on the jury. Yul had to be sure Ozzy or himself won the F5 immunity, yet Adam was the one that was a close second to Ozzy.

If Yul had won the F4 immunity, he was assuring himself of the million. In that one, he had no reason to let Ozzy beat him. Yul even let Sundra beat him. That wasn't impressive at all.

I think your recounting is correct as I think about it more now. The bottom line with Ozzy for me was that I could never respect him as a great player for conspiring in that early challenge throwaway which should have spelled his doom. I've also never understood how people thought his edit could have been saved from it.

"RE: Todd Is Sole Survivor"
Posted by michel on 01-08-08 at 09:51 PM
>The bottom line
>with Ozzy for me was
>that I could never respect
>him as a great player
>for conspiring in that early
>challenge throwaway which should have
>spelled his doom. I've also
>never understood how people thought
>his edit could have been
>saved from it.

If you're interested in reading how the editing treated Ozzy after throwing a challenge, I can suggest you read Veruca Salt's take on CI's episode #2. You can find what our resident editing expert wrote here:

http://community.realitytvworld.com/boards/DCForumID2/6427.shtml#56

If you have the time, you can scroll down the link and read everything we saw of Cook Islands. Ozzy's story took a lot of space!