I guess this will be the final list of the season (other than some parting shots after the Finale.) Tough to rank my top five because I could see each of them in the Finals.

HANNAH – I never thought my response in last week’s thread would be a perfect lead to this assessment. The props I gave to Westman & Co. for righting the wrong of Production’s casting debacle with Willard, goes Hannah’s way this episode for the way she handled the casting joke of Sunday. What has bothered me for years and expressed on these Boards was laid out perfectly by Hannah. All too often the inept gets their golden ticket punched to the F4 for being...well...inept, only to take a spot over another more proactive player more deserving. It was music to my ears and a thing of beauty to see Hannah step up and prevent that. YO ADRIAN...You did it!

ADAM – He worked Jay just enough creating the slightest amount of paranoia to flush out the last HII. Even though he was dead set on eliminating either Jay or David, he set the right wheels in motion to help ensure his success. Heading into the Finale he’s now my pick to win. The top four on my list I believe will be the F4. If David does not win the final IC, Adam could be sitting comfortably between Hannah and Ken and should win it pretty handily.

DAVID – If Jay does not run the IC table, David seems pretty solid to make the F4. As the castaway who’s owned the season he continues to make the others go poo-poo in their pants. The fake II we saw in the Preview may cause a few trips to the ocean to wash out their underwear. But I do believe he will need to win the final F4 IC to earn a seat at FTC. If he does get a stump at FTC, his ownership this season should culminate in a victory.

KEN – If in the Finals his opening statement will be very predictable. He’ll say how straight-up he was, and while others were conjuring up schemes to initiate lies, backstabbing and deception, he just spoke his mind and told it like it was to make his family and friends proud….and so on…and so on. We’ve heard that type of speech before, and whereas he’ll get a hug from his daughter back home, he’ll get butkus from the Jury.
His solid IC win guarantees him the Legacy Advantage. We’ll have to see whether it is a serious game-changer. It would be hysterical if he was given a map to go to a secluded area where waiting for him will be a glass of milk and a plate of cookies. LMAO!

JAY – It must sting to use a HII on yourself when you didn’t need to, but to walk away from the F6 with an idol still in your pocket would hurt 10X more. At this point in the game on Worlds Apart, Mike went on his run to deservingly earn a satisfying victory. Should that same effort get Jay to the Finals, his opening statement should include his forefinger pointing at the Jury saying, “I didn’t vote for you, you, you, you, you, and you at your last TC; so please vote for me at this final TC." End of statement. Game over.

BRET – In the Preview Jeff said every person remaining is a “legitimate threat to win.” He either forgot Bret is still in the game or perhaps marijuana is legal in Fiji.

BOOTED

WILL – He should have taken advantage of not all the votes read and when returning back to camp corner Bret/Sunday/Jay and say he did vote with them to boot Hannah but Adam’s HII fouled it up. Then go to Adam/Hannah and “apologize” for voting Hannah but they can “thank” Ken for ratting him out forcing him to flip again. Congratulating Adam on his idol play would have been a nice touch. It would have put a major target on Ken. I’m not saying it would have definitely worked, but it was his best option and worth a shot. In any event, the fact he finished behind Sunday and Hannah in the first IC was reason enough to boot him out of the game.

SUNDAY – Either Sunday or Bret works here. But because Sunday sucks worse at challenges than Bret, others would perceive her as the more enticing goat to want to see advance further in the game, so this choice made more sense. Hey, at least she’ll have time on the Ponderosa to NOW talk about her kids with the other Jurors. (Now what would my final list be without talking a kidney shot at my main dude Michel!) HA-HA!!

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Since this is the Final List, I'll go from the one I least want to see win to the one that I like the most:

6- Ken: Once more was saw that the game was being played well over his head. No one considers him a threat to win because, except for Jessica, no one on the jury likes him. A solid win you say? Would he have won if not for Adam's help? The guy couldn't even spell "Miallennils" (!!)

BTW. It's a shame that something someone else happen to stumble upon on day 1 may help Ken win IC and cut someone else's game short. It would be a travesty but this whole show is becoming a travesty. Jeff said it was fitting that we are left with 3 from the 2 original tribes but it has happened so often that I think the word should be "fixing" rather than "fitting".

5- Bret: Tribal Councils never go Bret’s way so it would be surprising to see him gather enough votes in the end. However, he would certainly receive votes from Chris, Sunday and possibly even from Zeke. Even Will and Jay could vote for him if he is there with Ken and David or Hannah. It would be a lot like last season after all. Bret has received more attention than his game or his personal story deserves and he certainly fits the theme of not being in control which is more than we can say for what’s-her-name...

4- David: David once more dodged a bullet. Why did Hannah save him? It seems that she is lucid enough to know he has to go before FTC and there are only 3 days left so even if she loves him she wouldn’t have had time to miss him. David has Hannah in his side pocket while Ken has been comfortably installed in the back one since the first day. How is anyone going to stop Dave? I’m practically resigned on seeing him win. It would be a lot like Survivor Philippines or Survivor Second Chance where everyone saw that Denise and Jeremy were going to win but no one did anything to stop them. Jeff loves big moves but why is it verboden to go after Dave? While only Jessica enjoyed seeing Sunday go, I’m sure the other jury members would have been happy to see David’s torch getting snuffed.

3- Adam: Adam should have been in an ideal position after this episode. It should have been evident that David had to go. Even if Will wanted to work with Adam for at least one vote, it was still understandable to go after the untrustworthy High School student but going after Sunday was inexcusable, a wasted opportunity. Adam knew that she would vote the way he dictated and Sunday’s vote against Jay proved that. Adam shouldn’t care at all about eliminating goats at this time because he has an excellent case to present to the jury and a very poignant personal story to influence the undecided.

Can Adam recover and win? The recap wasn’t favorable to his case. It would have been so much better for our opinion of Adam if Jeff had given him the credit his move deserved instead of saying it wasn't necessary to play his idol. Blatantly helping someone in an individual game could be seen as bad sportsmanship, even cheating by some so it was good that the story didn’t dwell on it. It now seems that Adam’s best chance is to go with Jay but is it too late? An immunity idol would have been very useful at this time and it seemed that Jay was being honest when he offered to go to the end with Adam.

2- Hannah: Aruba, I am thrilled that you give Hannah credit for going after the goat. It's like you're giving retroactive credit to the person that initiated that strategy: Cirie in Panama was the first to realize that goats could take her place so she brilliantly went after Shane and Cortney.

So while I'm happy to see you applauding Hannah’s decision to go after Sunday, there is such a huge difference between Cirie’s situation and Hannah’s that it was a bad move for the "best body left in the game". Cirie was going to beat anyone not named Terry Dietz in that Panamanian Final 6 and since the biggest threat in the game was always immune then goat hunting was clearly the best tactic possible. Hannah, on the other hand, doesn’t beat everyone left in the game. In fact she will need goats in order to win so she should have made Sunday her best friend ever. Not only that, the three biggest threats to win the game weren’t immune so it was time to go head hunting, not goat hunting. At least, she’d be able to undermine Adam’s attempt to claim the control angle. While she clearly was the person that made that last decision and she convinced others of that decision, is Hannah the kind of person who wins Survivor? Maybe she is or maybe she’ll just play the part of the goat in Sunday’s place.

1- Jay: Game logic seems to tell us that Jay should be the next to go. Even editing-wise, we heard him say that he needed to hold on to his idol for as long as possible but it has been wasted. Everyone wants him gone and Ken’s legacy advantage could make it extremely difficult to win the next immunity challenge. His touching scene with Adam could point towards the two winding up in the Final Three together but it could also simply have been included to tell us how Jay will vote in the end.

In a season where gaining control is bad for the players' health, Jay has never been able to hold power very long. Everyone that's tried to work with him has quickly been dispatched like he pointed out after Will's elimination. Yet Jay has kept forging ahead. No one has had a harder road to get from the merger to this point so if he does make it to the end he will deserve much more than a participation trophy.

Did you notice that Jay has been associated with the Full Moon? The moon was full when Jay went after Michaela and it was full again when he won immunity. The funny thing is that the moon will be full on December 14 so will Jay prevail again?!!

Nice list to end the season with. Lots of good questions/comments; I’ll try to get to them all. Jay is the one I would most like to see win too. But for reasons stated in my assessment and in this post, I’m feeling a David/Adam/Hannah/Ken F4.

Would Ken have won without Adam’s help? Absolutely. He was so far ahead of the field. It’s as silly as Judd taking credit for Rafe’s win when he yelled out “Ancient Ruin” within seconds of Rafe finishing the puzzle. As much as I dislike puzzles, I give Kudos to Production for coming up with this challenge. It did force the competitor to use their brain in TWO different disciplines. Given that format I wouldn’t beat up any player too much for initially misspelling the word.

We’ll see how much of a game-changer this Legacy Advantage really is. If it is a game-changer it’s a shame it was found by accident, but the reason it ended up in Ken’s hands was because Jessica appreciated his shoot-from-the-hip, straight-up demeanor. I guess when you’re a prosecutor in a DA’s office and contend with lying snakes every day it was a breath of fresh air for her.

And what would your final list be without a Conspiracy Theory you always hold so near and dear to your heart. LOL. Let’s analyze the endgames of the last two seasons with the “Battle of the Sexes” theme when the two initial tribes were separated by gender. In Vanuatu the final SEVEN were SIX females and only ONE male. In One World the final SEVEN were SIX females and only ONE male...again! And the F5 were ALL female. How “fitting,” or should we say..."fixed" were those???

Hannah feels indebted to David as well as to Ken and Adam going back to the rock drawing TC. In the revote all three could have switch their votes to avoid the rock-draw, but did not. In Hannah’s mind she feels thankful they all decided to draw rocks and put themselves at risk when any one of them could have simply regarded her a collateral damage to save their own hide. For that reason Hannah feels obligated to be loyal to David, Ken, and Adam going forward. Just another factor why I believe they will emerge as the F4.

Hannah, Ken, and David were absolutely, positively dead set on eliminating the weak and inept Sunday so she would not take a spot in the end over another more proactive player that Hannah so accurately stated would be “more deserving.” Neither of those three were budging. Had Adam not joined in we could have had another tie and possible rock-drawing scenario. Yes, Adam flipped before prior TCs, but this is a point in the game when you need to stick with an alliance and ride it to the end...especially one where Adam should have little problem beating Hannah and Ken. Put it all together and his hand was kind of forced to go with the majority of his alliance and eliminate the dead weight.

As a champion for the weak and inept it is understandable you would regard Sunday’s boot as “inexcusable.” Yet it has happened before when this type of castaway, not only takes an end spot away from a more proactive, deserving competitor, but actually ends up stealing a victory winning by default. I respect that result makes you quite happy because of the type of players you covet; I hope the respect can go both ways and you can appreciate the type of players I covet and why I’m glad whenever dead weight is eliminated.

I’d agree Cirie targeting Courtney because most wanted to take her to the Finals was a savvy move on her part. The reason I relish Hannah’s move more is because it eliminated a weak and inept player. Courtney was everyone’s goat because she was disliked, but she was not weak and inept; quite the contrary. I thought she more than held her own in challenges. I may even go so far to say she was probably the best female competitor in the challenges for that season.

Also, it wasn’t until after S12 did we have a F3 FTC. With only two players getting a seat in the Finals it was not as challenging to convince the others to eliminate someone like Courtney. A F3 FTC is a different ballgame. Sitting next to a perfect goat does not guarantee a victory because you have another player you need to contend with at FTC. It was a much tougher sell for Hannah.

These obvious contrasts make it an apples-to-oranges comparison in my mind.

I’m glad to see you acknowledge Deitz would have won that season had there been a F3 or had the final IC calibrated the platforms they stood on like they did for the following season’s final IC in Cook Islands. But Aras beats Cirie in the Finals as well.

Should Hannah make the Finals we’ll see how she’ll be perceived. Understand Sunday was not targeted because others were fearful she would win the game; quite the contrary. Hannah just didn’t want a casting joke like her to take a seat in the Finals over someone more deserving. On the subject of how this Jury may perceive the Finalists, I do have an observation to note. None of Jurors exited in the similar manner like Michaela. I sensed a level of gamesmanship exhibited by those who got blindsided. Hopefully this will translate to a Jury WITHOUT any sore-losing disgruntled Bitter Bettys; but that has yet to be seen at FTC on the Finale and when the ultimate votes are read on the Reunion Show.

To end on an amiable note I would like to copy one of your comments”

”In a season where gaining control is bad for the players' health, Jay has never been able to hold power very long. Everyone that's tried to work with him has quickly been dispatched like he pointed out after Will's elimination. Yet Jay has kept forging ahead. No one has had a harder road to get from the merger to this point so if he does make it to the end he will deserve much more than a participation trophy.”

Of all your posts, I don’t think I ever agreed more than with this one. Well worded!

To the "fitting" end, there have certainly been a couple of exceptions especially in the gender seasons but look at the others: Going back to Panama we had 1 member from each of the 4 original tribes. Cook Islands had at least one from each of the 4 ethnic groups at start of Final episode. Micronesia had 3 Fans versus 3 Favorites at F6. Nicaragua had 3 young ones versus 3 older players at the F6. Caramoan had 2 Fans versus 2 Favorites at F4. Worlds Apart had one member of each tribe in the F3 while Kaôh Rông had two from all three tribes in the F6.

This looks like a good way to keep the ratings up: Most viewers can still relate to one side or the other.

Since it didn't happen, we have no way of knowing if Ken would have won without Adam's help. Adam was there and he thought Ken needed his help. That is enough to put Ken's win in question.

And I didn't mean that booting Sunday was inexcusable because I "covet that type of player" . She was loyal to Adam so he didn't need to take her out. Now he's in big trouble so that's what is inexcusable. You say he had to join Hannah, David and Ken but you seem to forget that David and Ken were targeting Bret first. If Adam hand't been slower than Hannah he could have forced her to join his trio.

Courtney and Shane were viewed as goats just like Sunday so my comparison is not oranges and apples but billy-goat and nanny-goats! And the jury would have voted for Cirie over Aras and he even acknowldeged it. I am 100% certain of that because I listened to the players.

Seems to be more than just a “couple” exceptions. In Thailand ALL five of the F5 were from the SAME Chuay Gahn tribe. In Fiji FIVE of the F7 were from the SAME Moto tribe. In Nicaragua (the first season separated by Generation Gaps) SEVEN of the F10 were from the younger generation and EVERY ONE of the finalists were the youngsters. In Cagayan when the theme was Brains vs. Braun vs. Beauty, NOT A SINGLE BEAUTY made the F6 and BOTH finalists were Braun. And there’s more. I’m sure you’ll apply your patented spins to say this season had this twist, that season had that twist, so-and-so tribe was Pagonged...Yadda, Yadda, Yadda...Blah, Blah, Blah. Yet in a REAL conspiracy and if there was TRUE intervention, NONE of your anticipated lame spins would apply.

If you really and honestly want to believe Ken would not have won without Adam than go for it. Actually it’s a waste of time to even discuss because even if Ken didn’t win, Sunday sure as hell wouldn’t have. And the plan to eliminate the weak and inept casting debacle who would have made the most enticing goat still occurs.

I didn’t forget Bret was mentioned. I even stated in my assessment that either Bret or Sunday would work, but Sunday was more of a joke in the challenges. Hannah was dead set on wanting this to be HER move, so it wouldn’t matter if David/Ken pitched Bret or if David/Ken/Adam pitched Bret...the most enticing goat due to being the most inept was going and Hannah was going to spearheaded it.

Sunday was “loyal” to Adam??? Yet Sunday voted to boot Hannah when Adam voted to boot Zeke, and Adam was SO set on Zeke’s departure he even used his HII (as an insurance policy) to save the very player Sunday was voting out! Based on those actions Sunday’s “loyalty” was much stronger to Jay/Bret/Zeke.

Hard to figure Adam would be in better shape with Sunday/Bret/Jay than with Hannah/Ken/David. Sitting between Sunday/Bret in the Finals is a wash to sitting between Hannah/Ken. He wins going away in both scenarios. David or Jay is his main hurdle. Whichever alliance he chooses he needs to have neither David nor Jay win the F4 Final IC. The chances of Jay winning that final IC are obnoxiously and ridiculously greater than David, so I am less hesitant to criticize his choice.

Courtney was viewed as a goat because she was disliked immensely. Conversely Sunday seemed to be liked by all. Sunday was a downright embarrassing joke in the challenges, whereas Courtney was the best female competitor for that season. If you want to “listen to players,” listen to the undisputed Challenge Stud of that season (Deitz) who flat-out said she was the toughest. The differences couldn’t be any more obvious. But you seem to want to listen to players only when they serve your own purposes. Bottom line...Aras beats Cirie in the Finals.

Wait a minute: I said in thematic seasons: Thailand, Fiji were pick 'em seasons.

Despite La Flor's domination at the merger, FOR THE FINAL SIX we had "fittingly" 3 oldies, the young ones.

Cagayan was an exception.

Sunday wouldn't have won but neither would have Hannah. Why do you attack Sunday and protect Hannah? Love?

Adam said he knew Sunday would vote the way he wanted. What more do you want?

Bret and Sunday aren't schemers like David. That's why it was inexcusable NOT to vote out David. With Jay, Bret and Sunday he would have made the F3, with Hannah, David and Ken he falls at F4. Pretty big differnece, I'd say.

Will you ever learn: CIRIE beats ARAS It was said that Austin, Sally, Bruce and Danielle were going to vote for Cirie. Aras was always butting heads with Bruce and Danielle while those two loved Cirie. There was a Ponderosa video where Sally and Austin said they really didn't like Aras and Danielle but loved Cirie. Those 4 votes are 100% certain.

Yes, Courtney wasn't half bad in challenges (although Sally and Danielle were better) but she was a GOAT and we are talking GOAT HUNTING. Cirie invented the strategy. Plain and simple.

And the wheels on your bus spin ‘round n ‘round. LOL. OHHH, and Cagayan was yet ANOTHER “exception.” How about thematic season Cook Islands??? Four tribes divided by ethnicity. In the Final EIGHT you had only ONE SOLITARY American-African and only ONE SOLITARY Hispanic. A “fitting” or “fixed” Finals would have one representative from each different ethnicity in the F3...but we did NOT. Another “EXECPTION???” At some point enough exceptions are no longer “exceptions.”

Who I’m really attacking is Production for casting a total joke like Sunday to begin with. It’s not above “love”...Sunday was a much worse casting debacle than Hannah.

If Sunday was REALLY loyal to Adam and Adam caught wind to the fact that Sunday was writing down Hannah’s name, in the name of loyalty “What more do you want” you ask me? HMMM, let me think about that...OH, OK...I got it...AHHHH howabout showing this so-called loyalty toward Adam and voting Zeke.

In a Jay/Bret/Sunday/Adam F4, should the most likely scenario occur and Jay wins the final IC no way on God’s Green Earth Jay does not put himself in a slam dunk position to place himself between Sunday and Bret to take the victory. He’d toss Adam out like week old trash in the same exact manner he did with Michaela.

My focus has ALWAYS been about eliminating a weak and inept casting debacle. Please scroll up to the INITAIL POST THAT STARTED THIS THREAD. In Hannah’s assessment I used the following appropriate terms: “casting debacle,” “casting joke,” weak, inept,” and “player less deserving.” Labeling this joke an “enticing goat” works perfectly for me...whatever it takes to eliminate the dead weight. Cirie initiated a tactic to target a player everyone hatred when the Finals was ONLY a F2. You just keep hanging your hat on players who backpedal and come up with meager attempts of self-preservation and believe Cirie would beat Aras.

Drink Probst's Kool Aid if you want but I'm talking Finale just like now: Cook Islands Finale started with One White: Adam, one African American, Sundra, One Hispanic, Oscar and two Asians, Yul and Becky. It couldn't be anymore "fitting" just like it was "fitting" in Panama, Micronesia, Nicaragua and Caramoan while Wolrds Apart had each collar represented in the F3.

Listen to the players; Adam said he was controlling Bret and Sunday's votes. You look backwards, I am looking forward. Which is best if you are trying to win the game instead of putting up a losing argument?

Adam will be in trouble in any F4 scenario but at least Jay promised him to take him the the end while David hasn't. You saw how they bonded over their mother's situation so that bond could hold.

Both Cirie and Hannah talked about goats. Neither ever mentioned "casting debacles". Your focus isn't as important as what the players think.

Cirie would have easily beaten Aras. Easily. Austin, Sally, Bruce and Danielle were certain votes for Cirie. Certain.

You just keep drinking from that monster vat labeled “Conspiracy Theory.” Yet it seems your thirst for that vat is only when you are not happy about an outcome or one of your weak and inept castaways are eliminate as dead weight. I acknowledge SOME season’s endgame finished with an equal distribution as when the season started. And with several other seasons the end game distribution was not even close to how it started. Sometimes it works out that way; and sometimes is doesn’t.

How Danielle felt about Cirie after she beat her sorry ass in the fire-building tie-breaker challenge would have been MUCH different had it been the other way around. And no way Courtney gives Cirie her vote after knowing she spearheaded her boot because she tagged Courtney as a disliked goat who everyone hated. In Danielle and Courtney you’re talking about two competitive gals but their sportsmanship were pretty pathetic. Quintessential sore-losers and vindictive as hell. Austin and Sally both voted Austin to win and the very little time both had with Cirie would have hardly made a difference when casting their votes at FTC. No doubt you use players backpedaling and meager attempts at self-preservation to spin a result you most desire.

Actually I’m done discussing Aras beating Cirie. Deitz owned that season; would have won in the Finals; any discussion about how OTHERS would have fared that season is a discussion of runners-up and losers.

I am looking forward TOO. Adam has a much better chance beating David in the final IC as opposed to having to beat Jay in the final IC. David or Jay will NOT take Adam to the Finals when each would have two other castaways they would be able to beat hands down. This is Adam’s biggest dilemma and precisely what happens when you’re forced to rely or react to ANOTHER outcome out of your control. If would be much better for Adam if he did something in the Finale to proactively control his own fate, i.e. win the final IC on his own. Then we could talk about how he stepped up and earned his win instead of snatching victory due to some other outcome he did not control.

Whereas “casting debacle” were my words, Hannah specifically mentioned she wanted players who “played harder” to be rewarded with advancement in the game and did not want Sunday to take a place in the endgame over another “more deserving.” So YES, my focus was EXACTLY on what Hannah thought.

LAST EDITED ON 12-12-16 AT 11:51 AM (EST)

Of all the Thematic seasons, the only two that didn't end "fittingly" were One World and Cagayan. Both Amazon and Vanuatu had 1 Man and 1 Woman in the F2. Panama had 1 older man, 1 older woman, 1 young man and one young woman in the F4. Cook Island had each race represented at the start of the Finale. Micronesia F6 had 3 Fans and 3 Favorites. Nicaragua had 3 old vs 3 young in the F6. Caramoan saw a F4 with 2 Fans and 2 Favorites. The F3 in Worlds Apart had one of each collar. It seems that the Men of One World and the Beauties of Cagayan were simply impossible to fix!

And this has nothing to do with my appreciation of the outcome. I like some of these outcomes. It's simply observation of how often "fitting endings" and "random draws" work out just like production wanted.

Danielle loved Cirie but Aras not so much. Losing a fire challenge would not have changed that. Austin and Sally, while still in Panama, said they liked Cirie a lot and didn't like how Aras and Danielle treated them after the merger. I've never said how Courtney would vote. She probably votes for Aras but that wouldn't matter. And I'll let you know that Terry was a runner-up in that season!

Adam will certainly have a better chance of beating David than Jay but David comes with Ken so he'll have two players to worry about.

Hannah talked about "playing harder" but did SHE really play that hard? More than Sunday but not that hard compared to others. Cirie certainly did play hard and from day 1 when she had to save herself. Actions are more important than words. It's incredible that you can't even give Cirie credit for the goat hunting strategy!!!

You continue to make me laugh how you justify your hypothetical situations by “listening to players” who backpedal after the fact; yet I can recall several prior discussions when “listening to players” from other seasons who contradicted your desired outcome and you wrote off as rubbish.

The torch-snuffer for Deitz in Panama was a Production oversight. This was verified and corrected the VERY NEXT SEASON when the platform in the final IC was calibrated according to each individual competitor.

What's REALLY incredible is you missed where I did give Cirie credit. Please scroll up to Post #2. I clearly credited Cirie with a “savvy” move so the majority could vote out a player everyone hated. What's even MORE incredible is you are unable to respect how I enjoy it much, MUCH more to orchestrate a move to vote out a weak and inept player over other more proactive players who deserve it more.

I agree Jay, David, and Adam are more proactive than Hannah and deserve the win more than her. But she’s a hellava lot more deserving than casting jokes like Sunday or Bret. Ken vs. Hannah is too close to call.

HMMM...OK...so Adam has to “worry” about Ken...a player who (according to your spin) needed Adam to win. So, I guess Adam will need to “worry” because he will help Ken “again” in the F4 IC?!

All kidding aside, both of our case scenarios revolve around Adam needing someone else to do (or not do) something for advancement into the Finals. As I stated in my prior post, it would be much better if he proactively helped control his own fate to earn a spot in the Finals.

Perhaps then we might be in agreement…but then again...probably not. If Adam, for example, wins the Final IC and it does not produce your desired outcome, you will most likely say that IC was “fixed” for Adam to win.

It's not because of "desired outcome" that I feel production interferes much too heavily at times. For example, one season that really looked fixed was Redemption Island where Rob Mariano was put on a tribe with plenty of sheep who all lined up to be taken by him to the F3. Yet, I was happy to see Rob gettting his way.

It's just that some things "fit" too well and it goes all the way back where production made sure Rudy would stay over Stacy. She even won an out-of-court settlement. Yet, i was certainly happy to watch Rudy in Borneo over Stacy.

Even if he needed Adam's help, Ken is still a bigger challenge threat than Sunday. I thought you'd get that part...

Yes, you wrote that Cirie's move was savvy but then you went on and on to belittle it, saying it couldn't even be compared to Hannah's move. OK, you liked Courtney more than Sunday but they were both considered goats. That should have been the end of that discussion.

Adam would have proactively helped his cause by voting out Adam instead of Sunday.

Let’s get the out-of-court settlement nonsense out of the way first. In my 10 years of working in the Insurance industry I know MORE than a little something about this. Technically no one “loses” a settlement. Out-of-court settlements in NOOOO way is indicative of who is at fault. It’s a clear case of the plaintiff’s claim is an amount that the defendant’s insurance company can cover. Billions and billions of out-of-court dollars are paid through malpractice claims because doctors do not want to deal with a court case. To infer payment was made because the plaintiff was right and the defendant was at fault is a complete and total fallacy.

I guess there’s a distinct possible you may be on to something with Redemption Island only because the one time I attended an open audition for Big Brother the CBS casting crew specifically asked every applicant who their favorite former player was and who they disliked the most. So is it possible Rob could have been casted with newbies who orgasmed over him? And if a possibility that would be reason 1001 why I only watch and will comment on REAL seasons!

I’m not “belittling” anyone. For the Umpteenth time I ENJOY IT MORE WHEN A WEAK & INEPT PLAYER IS ELIMINATED OVER A CASTAWAY WHO IS DISLIKED.

As much as YOU would like this discussion to “end” with goat-hunting, fact of the matter is this discussion did not BEGIN with goat-hunting. It started with my assessment of Hannah and how she did not want Sunday to take a spot in the Finals over someone more proactive and “more deserving.” The word “goat” was not mentioned in my assessment of Hannah. It was used in your spin in a poor attempt to draw a weak correlation between pathetically inept Sunday and disliked Courtney. Whereas I respected Courtney’s competitiveness more than Sunday’s, for the record I liked Sunday more as a person.

Quite frankly, Adam could have cared less who won the IC so long as it wasn’t Jay so he could PROACTIVELY flush out Jay’s idol. Adam ultimately jumped on Ken’s bandwagon because he was blowing the competition away.

Adam’s proactive move in last week’s episode was successfully flushing out Jay’s HII. We’ll see if he has any more proactive gameplay to benefit his advancement in tonight’s Finale. Voting David to create a 3-3 tie would not have been a smart proactive move. And fresh off pledging his alliance with Hannah, Ken & David to immediately flip again at this crucial stage of the game on Day 35 would have been beyond ill-advised.

You are right about out-of-court settlements but I've read the Survivor contract and they've included enough precautions to avoid litigation that they wouldn't have agreed if they didn't think she had enough of a case to cast doubt on the integrity of the show. Out-of-court settlements are done to put an end to something unpleasant and putting an end to something before it goes public is a way to silence the plaintiff or cover-up any wrongdoings.

I'm glad you see there is a possibility that things were fixed for Rob. It's usually as subtle as you indicate but there are so many ways they could interfere even in regular seasons.

I wish I could have seen you on BB! I probably wouldn't have known it was you but I would have rooted for you if I knew.

Okay, I understand your point of view regarding Hannah's move but while you didn't talk about goats, she specifically referred to Sunday as a goat so that is what got me off on that tangent.

Was Ken blowing the competition away? Jeff said that David was in the lead and that Jay was still in it after Adam had started helping Ken.

Things worked out very well for Adam even if he didn't do much so I guess his decision on day 35 is a moot point.

Chris was wrong to give credit to Adam for convincing Ken to vote against David. We saw that it was Hannah who talked to Ken so if anyone convinced him, it was her. I wonder why she didn't protest.

Anyway, while I enjoyed seeing Adam win can we say that Ken "Outplayed" and Hannah "Outwitted"? So what did Adam do? "Outcry"?

I thought Adam started helping Ken after he thought he won but misspelled Millennials. I do not remember hearing Jeff say David was in the lead at that stage of the comp, but if you heard it he must have said it. When Ken did win, I do not recall any of the other structures even close to completion...but then again, I’m going from memory.

I’ll make a deal with you...if I ever get on BB I’ll wear a hat or some article of clothing that says “Aruba.” LOL.

Hell yeah...Chris giving credit to Adam for David’s boot was the moment that bothered me the most at FTC. The only way he could possibly made that comment was if he was fed that information from David himself. Even so, it was not his place to make that statement from hear/say.

No opening statements? Was this the first time the Finalists did not make an opening statement? I thought all three handled themselves pretty well. Hannah may have come off a little defensive; kind of a chip on her shoulder...but I was most impressed with Ken because I didn’t think he’d come off as well as he did.

I might make you warm and fuzzy with this assessment: Although Ken “outcompeted” Adam in the challenges, I would not say Ken “outplayed” him. Yes, Ken won four challenges to Adam’s two, but Adam found two HIIs and an Advantage. And he did orchestrate Figgy’s blindside, then manages to still get Taylor’s vote in the end! Put all it together and that’s “outplaying” in my book. Adam held his own in the “outwit” department as well, but I would give the nod to Hannah there. No one touched him in the “outcry” department...wonder if he’s related to Big Mess from the last BB season?

I know you’ll disagree with me here, but had Adam chose Jay/Sunday/Bret as a F4 Jay does not take him to the Finals. And Jay would have won that final IC going away without the dramatic tiebreaker.

Do you know the exact timespan between actual filming and Finale Night? Reason I ask is because if Jeff announced Taylor is a new daddy, then some girl back at home was pregnant with his child while he was horndogging with Figgy on primetime TV??? If my calculation is even close to correct...what a piece of scum!

Aubry from last season must be banging her head against the wall wishing she had that type of Jury. You got a sense from their exits at TCs they would be voting in the true spirit of the game. Michelle even commented about the absence of bitterness among this Jury and Jeff gave his approval saying that’s the way it oughta be.

What a nice and appropriate way to end the Finale/Season. Too bad they had to go and ruin it by announcing next year’s game will NOT be a real season. Roid-Mode Cowboy…a “game-changer” on Survivor?! Needless to say, I’ll be on sabbatical from these Boards.

LAST EDITED ON 12-16-16 AT 12:10 PM (EST)

When Chris credited Adam, I thought Hannah would speak up but that was one of the only time she didn't interrupt.

Like you, I was surprised by the lack of opening statements but Taylor went first and his question opened the door to them. Maybe it was agreed to proceed that way because 10 jurors is a lot. On the other hand, it's possible that they gave opening statements but they were all edited out of the show. With 3 challenges, Jeff's live LA interventions and 4 TCs we didn't see much of what actually happened on those last 3 days. These finales are becoming all Jeff, all the time.

For me, Outplay is the physical part of the game and Ken was much better in both individual and tribal challenges. Finding HII is luck. Yes, it looked like Adam searched harder than most but there are some days where the cameras show us only 2 or 3 minutes so it's entirely possible that some players searched even harder than those who actually find idols but since they don't, the images are left on the cutting room floor.

Figgy's blindside was completed by Adam but it was Jessica who "orchestrated" it in my book. If she doesn't earn Adam's trust and doesn't get Ken to do the same, then Adam doesn't boot Figgy. If Jessica had looked shady then Adam would have gone with the devil he knew. Like Michelle's question underlined, Adam was out of the loop much more often than Hannah so he wasn't really the one who "Outwitted" the best.

We'll never know how Jay would have voted in a F4 with Bret/Sunday/Adam but Bret was clearly liked by the jury so he could have been the target. Anyway, Jay looked very honest when he promised Adam and David the F3. He had good reasons to be honest because he probably knew he'd get the most votes.

David and Jessica didn't vote for Ken so it could be said they were bitter. Hannah played a good enough game to earn a couple of votes so there had to be some bitterness towards her also. Did you see the daggers that Sunday and Bret sent her way? The jury wasn't bitter overall because Adam wasn't the main executioner. Only Jay and Zeke could have been bitter at Adam but Zeke had to be more bitter at Hannah while Jay never really respected Hannah and since they both disliked Ken then what else could they do?

Season 33 was filmed between April 4 and May 12 http://truedorktimes.com/s33/calendar.htm
(Season 34 concluded on July 14)

Taylor had a girlfriend when he went to Fiji but I think he only learned she was pregnant when he returned. When Figgy found out he had a GF she broke it off. BTW, didn't you think Figgy looked very nice in that back row? And what was Michelle wearing? Did you see that monster head attached to her shoulder? Weird...

I hate seeing returning players also but not only for the same reason as you do. Like you, I hate pre-game alliances and votes based on reputation, but now that these bozos know there will be many seasons with returning player, they aren't as concerned with making the "best decisions possible" but making the "splashiest' ones instead. They call next season "Game Changers" but really they should call it "Jeff's Favorites". *barf*

Good point on Hannah not defending herself when Chris felt so inclined to give the credit to Adam. But a majority of the Jurors had ample time to talk, compare notes, and deliberate. For Chris to stage that “appeal” to the other Jurors was a surefire clue that Adam had it in the bag...if Ken and Hannah hadn’t figured it out already. So, I guess at that point she may have thought, “what’s the use.”

Luck is what occurred in “One World” when Colton had the idol dropped in his lap by Sabrina. Sure, it’s entirely possible others made a solid effort to search as well...but Adam ended up searching better by ultimately possessing the HII.

Whereas Jessica gets an assist for Figgy’s blindside, Adam had that set in his mind as early as Ep. 2 at the Millennial’s first TC when he was left out of the loop on the Mari blindside. We know he was disgusted with the silly sappy shomance BEFORE he joined Jessica with the tribal switch. And no one got Ken to “do the same” because he knew the horndog lovebirds were gunning to anti-darwin him out of the game.

Sure, Jay looked honest promising Adam/David the F3. He looked just as “honest” making Micheala feel safe before her blindside followed by that unforgettable cold & calloused DEATHSTARE. IMO I would regard THAT as the most memorable moment of the season over Jeff’s choice of when Bret and Zeke decided to share with each other their preference for dudes over chicks.

Your examples of Jury bitterness are interesting reaches, but even so none of them would have tipped the scale. The only real bitterness was Jessica over drawing the black rock, but that was not something she could pin on a particular castaway/finalist. Without David or Jay in the Finals, Adam sitting with Ken/Hannah was a slam duck as predicted before the Finale even aired.

Thanks for the good detective work. With the season commencing on April 4, even if Taylor’s child was born this month, it would had to of been conceived in March. And after further contemplation, when you consider BB James F’d up situation of not knowing he even had a kid on the way until that F’d up girl decided to tell him in the delivery room, it’s very possible he has no idea before embarking onto the season. So perhaps he’s not a piece of scum...but I still think he’s a douche.

Bringing up Michelle’s attire made me realize I forgot two items in my prior post. First, I wanted to mention that ridiculous outfit/costume she was wearing. Second, that was some nasty infection David had on the side on his face at FTC. I guess lucky for him it was not on a “joint.” *SNORT*

I think Adam only completed the slam dunk when he told everyone about his mother's situation. Before that I think it was still up in the air or at least not a 10-0-0 result. Chris made his speach before Adam's revelation so I think Hannah should have jumped in. It wouldn't have changed much but at least it would have shown the lawyer that his case had holes!

Yes, Colton was lucky that the idols had to be given across tribal lines but I maintain that finding an idol, especially this season, is simply luck. Take a left turn out of camp and no luck, take a right turn and pop-!-goes-the-idol!

Just before going to TC, Jessica told Ken that he had to go to Adam and promise him a F3 deal. I don't think Ken would have done it otherwise. And yes, Adam wanted to boot Figgy and Taylor from the start but the swap was a tricky time to do it. Not only was he giving away the Millennials' numbers but many of the other Millennials started gunning for him. In comparison, booting Ken was the safe move.

Yes, now that you mentioned it, that death stare was the best moment of the season but Jay felt threatened by Michaela while I don't think he was afraid that David or Adam could beat him in the F3. So I still think that Jay would have taken Adam and David to the F3 like he said he would.

A jury is bitter when the players that voted them out didn't do it cleanly. Now, I'm sure you will agree that Ken, Hannah and Adam were much nicer to others than Hantz was. The degree of bitterness is directly proportional to the "douchyness" of the Finalists.
(Last season was an aberration because Aubry wasn't a bad person.)

Even if he didn't know about the kid, Taylor is still scum because he never told Figgy about the GF and he forced his GF to watch him cheating on her.

10-0; 8-2; 9-1...what does it matter. I’ll continue to stick with my assessment made as early as the F8: If Adam gets to the Finals without David or Jay, he’s got the title and million in the bag—Mom’s critical condition notwithstanding. Although an Adam/David/Jay F3 would have been arguably the most impressive F3 ever. Even if Jay called the shots that wasn’t happening. NO ONE (even Jay) was going to sit next to the player who owned the season (David) in the Finals.

I’m sure every aspect of this game can be spun to incorporate some element of luck. My point has always been you’re not going to find a HII by sitting on your rump back at camp and fluttering your wings as a social butterfly.

I agree sticking with the pathetic lovebirds to vote out Ken would have been the safe move for Adam; but big moves win the game. And win the game he did! Ken knew the sappy shomance would be voting him out, so voting Figgy was turning on the headlights while driving at night. Adam voting out one of his own was sandwiched between the other two tribes who ALSO voted out one of their own, so it was par for the course for the three TCs after the tribal switch and before the merge.

For THIS season the true spirit of the game came to the forefront compared to several other Juries...”aberrations,” exceptions, and spun explanations aside.

Good call on Taylor. Assuming the girl he impregnated WAS a “girlfriend” back at home, it was pretty scummy on his part to be horndogging Figgy. I failed to reply to one of your comments on an earlier post, but Yes, Figgy (as well as all the women for that matter) looked attractive on the Reunion Show. Goes back to a comment I’ve made several times on these Boards: If there was a socially acceptable way for men to enhance their appearances on a regular everyday basis, we’d be the most AWESOME looking species on the face of this earth! Ha-Ha!!

I'm pretty sure that Jay would have had votes from Michelle, Taylor, Bret, Sunday, Will and Zeke in a F3 with David and Adam. David owned the cameras, not the game. He relied entirely on Hannah's goodwill and I feared she'd stick with him to the end just like Sugar did with Bob.

I think most players spend time looking for idols but the editors can only show so much. It would make for quite boring episodes if we had fruitless searches each week. If I remember correctly, no one has ever searched harder for an idol than Candice during Cook Islands but she simply went to exile island too late. That was an unlucky break because Yul did nothing to go first, Billy just wanted to screw Oscar. Even Misty searched hard for that idol in Panama but she got a verbal clue asking "why she was there". That clue became evident only in writing when it was "ask Y you are there." She was simply unlucky to go too early.

Big moves win Jeff over but not the game. Just think of Michelle, Sophie, Denise, Bob, etc... Even Adam didn't really make big moves. He often followed Hannah.

You credit the jury for not being bitter but I prefer to credit the Finalists. Suppose you and I agree to a F2 deal on day 1 and we make it to the end together after each making great moves. During the last endurance IC, after the goat(s) fall off, I plead with you to let me win that necklace because I never won it. You agree because I promise to take you to the Finale but then, that night, I vote you out. Do you still give me the million? Don't dodge by saying you'd never let me win, we have all seen players letting others win and that isn't the point here.

When you own the game...the cameras follow. David relied ENTIRELY on Hannah’s goodwill??? David was forging bonds before the merge and before he started playing the game with Hannah. David found two HHIs without Hannah’s help. He won two ICs without Hannah’s assistance. And he successfully orchestrated his fake HII ploy without Hannah. Hannah stuck with David, Ken, and Adam when all three could have hung Hannah out to dry instead of making a big game move and drawing rocks. She understandably felt indebted to them.

Well of course the editors aren’t going to waste a lot of camera time on a bunch of losers who were unsuccessful finding idols. LOL. Obviously, they will focus on the ones who were proactively successful in finding them. Misty went to Exile Island first because she sucked at the first challenge and lost. She was not “unlucky,” she went to Exile Island first because she...well...sucked. The “Y” clue did not become evident when it was written out because Bruce had not one...but TWO shots at finding the idol with the clue and was unsuccessful. It took the castaway who owned that season to nail it. For the record, Yul did NOT go first; Penner did. Yul successfully found what Penner could not.

Last post you said Michelle’s win was an “aberration,” now you are using this same “win” in attempt to support your case. LMAO! I’m not familiar with Sophie, Denise...PLEASE stick with real seasons that I only watch. Bob made a big move by successfully creating a fake HII used at TC just as this season’s owner did. Of course, when you win FIVE challenges after the merge AND the fire-building tie-breaker you do no need a cornucopia of big moves.

Adam made big moves. He followed through on making the Millennials pay for keeping him out of the loop at TC in Ep. 2 at the first opportunity he had. He used his HII on Hannah to strategically solidify the F4 pact that went on to make the F4 so he could sit with Ken and Hannah in the Finals and win it handily. Handing over his advantage he successfully found to Jay was excellent. And as stated before, it was a very big move to risk drawing rocks to crystalize this F4 instead of playing it safe and writing down Hannah’s name during the revote to save his own skin.

All these years of knowing me and you propose the most UNREALISTIC scenario I could ever be associated with?? My proactive never-say-quit competitive MO would never suggest I would ever tank a competition. I sure as HELL would not do it at the FINAL IC when it would guarantee me a spot in the Finals. Rob wouldn’t even do it for his future wife...you think I would do it for you or anyone else??!! Com’ on Michel...if you insist on grasping at straws to prove your point, at the very least PLEASE be logical and realistic with your spins.

I thought it was clear that I meant his end game depended entirely on Hannah. Premerge, his game was saved by the fact that his tribe had plenty of players that were even weaker than him and then he had an extremely favorable swap. He was close to proactively putting himself out of the game! His two idols were wasted, especially considering Jessica gave her advantage to Ken instead. Drawing rocks is dumb so I don't count that as a big move.

You are incorrect about your Exile Island facts. Misty didn't suck at the first challenge, she didn't even participate!! Danielle ran it for the young women and it was all about luck. Ruth Marie was lucky to smash the skull with the amulette before Danielle. Then Danielle wanted to do the honorable thing by volunteering to go to Exile but the women decided to play rock paper scissors instead and Misty lost. The fact that Bruce wasn't smart enough to decipher the Y clue has absolutely no bearing on how Misty, an engineer, would have done with it.

And again, the fact that Penner didn't have enough info has no bearing on the fact that Candice went to Exile Island after Yul. She would have been just as unlucky if Penner had found it first.

There isn't a contradiction in saying that Michelle didn't deserve to win over Aubry and that she won without making big moves. She did win, she didn't do much. It rather proves neatly that you are wrong.

Most of the time Bob was napping while the others talked about strategy so for big moves, we've seen better!

For Adam, voting out Figgy wasn't much of a move. The swap served her head on a silver platter. Using his idol on Hannah was unnecessary as Jeff pointed out. Giving his advantage to Jay was a good tactic but hardly a big move while drawing rocks, like I said is simply dumb. He didn't draw the black rock which means he was lucky, simple as that.

I knew you'd dodge the question! So, instead suppose it's a F2, we've had a deal from the start, we've both played excellent games and right before the last IC, we pledge once more on our honor that we will take each other to the end instead of Sunday that is with us in the F3.

Then you slip and I win that last IC quite unexpectedly. We get to TC and Jeff asks me if I will be loyal to you. I start laughing and reply that Aruba may as well join the jury immediately instead of going through the charade of asking me to vote. You join the jury and you have the deciding vote: Do you give me the million?