my dear Rose, I'm already contractually bound to chase Mistofleas around the spoiler playground, but I'll chase you on the sly.

I heard that!

--takes on a "the more the merrier" attitude vis a' vis spoiler chasing

This is my theory now that we know:
A. All 6 Losers come back and
2. The next episode is a two parter.

I propose this.

Episode 7A
The Ghosts come back and we have the prison break challenge.
One team wins, two team lose.
The losing teams each vote off a member.

Then we do the "run into the ocean and retrieve something off the bottom" challenge.
One team wins, two team lose.
The losing teams each vote off a member.

End of 7A

Episode 7B
Then we do the "fill in the blank" challenge.
One team wins, two team lose.
The losing teams each vote off a member.

Now we are down to 10 members so we merge.
Next we have an indivdual immunity challenge, a tribal council, one person goes home.

Now we are down to 9 players and right on track.

This covers more than the first challenge, but it all kind of ran together.

interesting concept but honestly, are they really going to give all 6 losers an opportunity to knock off the others... that's bad for viewing audience.
I think that it will be challenge losing team must exchange one of their tribe for one of Loser Lodge team. Probably not more than that. The rumours are an older woman makes it -- strikes me as Lil - if Drake has to do this and Trish if Morgan has to do it. Neither of those two could make it unless they have front time to develop with new tribe before merge.

Why even have the GT compete then? They could just sit on the sidelines and see who wins. There is no motivation for them to compete unless they have a good chance of staying.
My theory has each team responsible for their own fate. It also will bring numbers from each tribe 6-2-2, 4-3-3, 5-3-2, etc (built in alliance). Anyway, it's just a swag.

This idea works out pretty well. How about we change the rules?

* If the Ghost tribe comes in last, they have to vote out two members and Drake and Morgan aren't penalized.

So as to make it more fair, I'd also slap down some kind of penalty on the Ghost tribe, making it slightly harder (but not impossible) for them to win.

Based on what's out there, I'd say it goes:

7A

* Ghost tribe loses once, votes out two.
* Next order is D/G/M. M/G each lose a member.

7B

* Once again it's D/G/M. M/G lose a member.
* Two G members return.
* One of them goes immediately.

I know we're hearing that three people are returning, but that's a bit hard to swallow.

Since the whole thing is just off the wall speculation, I'm going to be quirky and throw in this. My theory is that Andrew goes first, since Osten looks to be in danger this week. Osten goes in part two, and then Lil and someone else returns. Lil wins immunity and the other person who returned is once again booted from the game.

If the GT's are really there to compete in the game for the money I think that Survivor has jumped the shark.

"Your past has come back to haunt you"
What could be more haunting than someone with nothing to lose and lots to talk about? If Drake or Morgan wins they get a visit from one of the ghost tribe members from the other team. An opportunity to learn about alliances on the other team. IMHO Lil would be the best choice for Drake as she was the last one voted off of Morgan.
They are not in the game and either leave or the GT competes at the next RC and a looser gets to hang around again.
If the GT wins it is a spoiler for the real tribes. The GT's reward is not letting their former tribe mates get anything.
pancho
-sig pic in the shop

In the above vidcap from snews with Sandra in it, there is a building? and something else in the upper right and lower right of the screen. Can anyone tell me what this is?

I'm wondering if those people who are left still tied up at the end of the challenge have to leave with the ghost tribe, until the next challenge.

Just as an aside, wouldn't it have been better if they had each been buried up to their necks and the tide was coming in? Much more exciting, and more like Pirates.

>Just as an aside, wouldn't it
>have been better if they
>had each been buried up
>to their necks and the
>tide was coming in?
>Much more exciting, and more
>like Pirates.

That would be good, but there's one problem... Jon would drown, because nobody would've dug him out!!

LOL - yeah and Osten would have freaked out!! Not water!!

1st pic
"http://www.survivornews.net/~images/index.php?currDir=./Panama/E7/s7e7webprv&pageType=image&image=15.jpg";

2nd pic
"http://www.survivornews.net/~images/index.php?currDir=./Panama/E7/s7e7webprv&pageType=image&image=26.jpg";

If you want to see the pics you'll have to remove the quote marks. very frustrating. maybe I need a lesson in posting pics, cause it sure aint working for me.

Here's your pic's kiddo.

In the above vidcap from snews with Sandra in it, there is a building? and something else in the upper right and lower right of the screen. Can anyone tell me what this is?
Sandra is sitting by tree/sea-mail.
At treemail there is a half-buried boat with a chest in it, which holds the cute little messages pre-challenge.

on a side note, I found it easiest to go to the site, right click on the pic. , copy the image address, than paste it into your message.
Also, always preview your message first. That way you can avoid making too many bad posts.

hope this helps, and by the way, welcome to SB.

tribephyl

Thanks for solving the mystery of the pics and also for the lesson. I'll definately preview my posts if they have a link of sorts in them.

>"Your past has come back to
>haunt you"
>What could be more haunting than
>someone with nothing to lose
>and lots to talk about?
>If Drake or Morgan wins
>they get a visit from
>one of the ghost tribe
>members from the other team.
>An opportunity to learn about
>alliances on the other team.

Right on, Pancho. Maybe this is a reward challenge rather than an automatic booter, so nobody is definitely going home after it (Jeff said "may go home," didn't he?) Perhaps it's going to be similar to the chessmen challenge, and the prize for the winning tribe (if Morgan or Drake) is to choose one member from either of the other two tribes? It'd be a nice bit of theatrical symmetry with the earlier reward, and it fits with the theme of the past coming back -- we've done this before, and now we're doing it again.

Now, how to fit in the possibility of Ghost winning the cage contest. Hmm. What is their motivation to win? They are not massively motivated to win if the motivation for Morgan and Drake is the chance to pick a person from either of the losing tribes -- Ghost is motivated to lose, on that basis, to get one person back into the game. However, this game isn't about helping your fellow man get back into the game -- all six of them want back into the game, so what's the motivation on them to win, that is more motivating than losing in order to get one person back in? (I also like the sly jab at the concept of throwing challenges, too, but I'm probably getting carried away with the theatrical stuff at that point.)

Perhaps there's a competition within Ghost that runs simultaneously with the main contest. Let's say it's something as simple as "If Ghost wins, then the first two Ghost members out of the purple cage get to challenge the last people out of the blue and orange cages, respectively, for their spot on the main tribes." This would motivate all Ghost members to do what needs to be done as quickly as possible. But having said that, we know Burton isn't tied up in the first place, so he's not on the same playing field as everyone else...

But there really has to be some kind of intra-Ghost competition in this way, in order to decide which of them gets a shot at challenging for a return to the game. I don't think the cage contest, per se, is a booter; I think losing the cage contest puts your weakest persons at risk of being individually challenged by Ghost individuals if Ghost wins, but does not automatically give Ghost any return-to-the-game privileges or cause an automatic ousting of a Drake or a Morgan. If a single contest could make that huge a difference to gameplay, there's just not enough distance between the concept of Ghost as Losers who have already been shown the door fair and square, and the concept of them still being "in the game". It starts to feel fixed, and someone who got the boot in this scenario would have a legitimate complaint about the unfairness of bringing back players who had previously been beaten in the game. Basically, there must be more to it than "win the cage contest and walk back in" because I don't feel that would be popular with viewers for a variety of reasons.

Thus we have two potential outcomes, if my waiting-for-the-AC-man musings have any foundation in practical possibility, each of which would be relatively satisfying: Morgan or Drake wins, and gets to pick one new member from either of the other two teams, or Ghost wins and gets the right to challenge Morgan and Drake for as many as two Ghosts to return to the game, one to each tribe, with the decision as to which Ghosts get that privilege being decided by some other contest that is particular to Ghost.

I think I've put all this together as a result of seeing Osten with his hands still trussed but sitting down looking miserable, which naturally leads me to hope this might be a good opportunity to see him go. In other words, all of this is wishful thinking aimed at getting rid of Osten, whom I am hoping is left by his teammates to rot in the orange cage and is therefore open to challenge by a Ghost individual. Hah, take that, princess.

According to CBS, the next episode will be a 2-part special.

In the 1st part, I think that the Ghost Tribe will compete, like Drake and Morgan. The format will still be the same—the first tribe to escape from the jail. I think the impact of the game comes to who will be the 1st place. If it is the Drake or Morgan who will get out first, the Ghost tribe will have their chance for another 15 minutes of fame be nullified.

If it is the Ghost who wins, then probably, the 2nd part of the next episode will show the individual competition. I don’t see the whole 6 contestants coming back for more episodes to come, ‘cause it will screw the un-booted contestants big time and the whole game mechanics. (I think there will be more audiences left confused or definitely pissed if this happens.) One contestant is enough for the comeback. The other Ghost tribe members will have to leave the game after the Comeback challenge, finally. In this scenario, one newly-booted contestant will be replaced by a previously-booted contestant. This newly-booted contestant will finally leave the game for good.

The Immunity Idol will always be a fight between Drake and Morgan since the Ghost tribe had no use for it… They only need to win 1st place in IC, in order to have a chance to make a comeback.

The question left in my mind is… will they extend another episode (other than the two-part special and redux)?

As for the contestants, I think there is one of the four who will probably not make a comeback—Rupert, Jon, Andrew or Osten. They have their fare share of confessionals or face-times in the CBS preview (maybe a sign or not.)

Assuming Yahoo Spoiler is true, we can say that either Andrew or Osten will be replaced by Lill. The jury will start after two of the original (Ruppie, Sandra, Christa, Shawn, Jon, Tij, Darrah, Andrew, Osten, and Ryan O) are booted. The mix will probably not happen. The merge will be delayed like what happened in Thailand.

I hope what I think make sense…

Where IS she and why is she so darn clean too

Thanks, that's the pic I was trying to post.

Like what happened in the RC (with shower and dryers as rewards) when the Morgan has its first RC win, almost all thought that Drake won because Sandra is clean. I think the lighting or video/pics quality caused this assumption.

They all seem to be cleaned up, or at least those who choose to, to some degree. For example, Christa at the IC looked like an acne-laden teenager with those bites all over her face, etc. Yet, later at TC, she is overcome with "great healing" or in other words, make-up and lighting. Or maybe she used some of that steak seasoning...

Pokey

"You can pick your friends and you can pick your nose. But you can't wipe your friends on the couch."

I actually think Christa had a reaction to one of the spices, not bug bites. Mabye? That would clear up faster than bug bites.

Okay, this would be simple enough. The three tribes compete head-to-head (since we see Andrew, Burton and Shawn all sprinting at the same time, this seems obvious). The terms of the race are along the lines of getting your tribe freed from the cage, whatever, who cares...

Here's how the results could affect the game:
For each of the other tribes that the ghost tribe beats, the other other tribe gets to pick a ghost to join them. The Ghosts are motivated to win to get two of their members back in the game. The Drakes and Morgans are motivated so that the other tribe doesn't outgrow them.

Example, the tribes finish in this order: Morgan, Ghost, Drake. So Morgan gets to pick one ghost to join their tribe. The rest of the Ghosts go home for good. The Drake tribe stays the same size. This is tricky because if Morgan picks one of their own bootees, there might be residual resentment. If they pick a Drake bootee, there might be lingering loyalty to Drake. Tricky tricky.

Another example, the tribes finish Ghost, Drake, Morgan. Now both Drake and Morgan need to pick a ghost. Tricky, tricky.

The only thing that's messy is the need to cut enough players to stay on schedule. I see double bootees at TC post-merge for a couple of weeks. Or, whacky third option, we end up with a final three for the jury to vote on. Hoo-haa.

-P

LAST EDITED ON 10-25-03 AT 07:31 AM (EST)

LAST EDITED ON 10-24-03 AT 07:14 PM (EST)

Pics

I can tell you Shawn in the video appears to have a type of sledgehammer in his hand and note he is running towards us and Jeff is the other way so if they have to race; they may have to race SOMEWHERE FIRST, GRAB A TOOL OR SOMETHING AND RACE BACK. That is how it appears however it goes so fast hard to tell but both Rupert and Jon are shown (see below) looking over to their right presumably waiting for Shawn to come back perhaps.

This pic in the video panned from Christa with her hands clearly tied to Jon in the cell and his hands are tied as well. He is looking over presumably at Shawn? coming down the path I assume.

There in the video also is Osten leaning at the front of the cage and he has orange ropes around his wrists as well and in the video you do see Rupert and Shawn exit the cage at some point (although it could be last lol)

I'm thinking that those left tied and at risk to be booted.

That would be nice, dragonfly, because there's that shot of Osten with his hands tied, looking despondent and defeated, as if the contest is over and he has been left trussed up at the end of it!

We discussed that at work as well.
We could see it... Day 40 - The crew is breaking down sets, when they come across Jon, still tied up and locked in "jail". "I'm going to style and profile, aw come on guys, let me out, please! I promise, no more lame wrestling quotes, please."

LAST EDITED ON 10-24-03 AT 07:40 PM (EST)

The pic of Rupert and Shawn exiting the cage looks to me like something is wrong. Shawn seems to be pointing out of the cage door and Rupert is looking down. Neither one of them seem to be in too much of a hurry to get out of that cage. Maybe they spung a trap or something.

What do you think Veruca?

Edited for spelling

I'm not Veruca, but I thought I'd pipe up anyway... Judging by the fact that there's motion blurring the shot you're referring to, I *do* think Rupert and Shawn are hurrying to get out of the cage.

Is there any significance to the fact that these don't appear to be single large cages but are, apparently, smaller cells that are part of the larger whole cage? Rupert seems to be in one section of Drake's, while Christa (digging) appears to be in another. And when you look at the wide shots that show all three cages, they do all appear to be multiple individual cells.

Is this partly an individual challenge -- in other words, is there some significance going to be given to which *individual* gets out of his own cell first or last? Perhaps that's what dictates which individual on Morgan and Drake is available for Ghost to challenge?

I had seen the sequence of the event and it had been rationalized in Survivorfever.net. I think it can be found in Spoiler section.

LAST EDITED ON 10-25-03 AT 08:06 AM (EST)

LAST EDITED ON 10-25-03 AT 07:42 AM (EST)

Think it is just a capture of them in a moment looking down. They do get out though. What I am intrigued by is Shawn and this object in his hand that appeared to look like some sort of hammer. If he needs the hammer but we see Andrew crawling under the cell, and since the greenery is on the other side, he'd be crawling into the cell so

what the heck is the hammer for?

It can't be to smash the lock because they are back inside with the lock on. I'm just not sure where Shawn and this hammer looking thing comes into play though.

Oh also, just IMO, those little blurbs with Rupert, I was going to kill by Rupert and Andrew putting his head in his hands, both of those shots appear to be back at their own tribes, presumably Rupert may be talking about Jon and what occurred and Andrew may be making that gesture in connection with Osten's new (and getting old) quit mode.

I did not see II ANYWHERE. I think I said this somewhere but I personally think this challenge is reward but the reward may encompass the GT allowing to be back in the game. Think of this, why SHOULD they be allowed? They need to EARN the right to get back in the game. This challenge may be for the right to get back in the game. Jeff said You MAY be going home. This could refer to The Ghost Tribe that if they don't win this, they may be going home.

I know a lot of you believe it is pointless for this scenario if they could lose but in the concept of the game itself, bringing back booted players is inconceivable. Why SHOULD they get the luxury of just coming back. I think this challenge is to determine if they earned that right or not. If the GT's do win then perhaps the NEXT challenge is a makeshift merge (a la Thailand though) of all three tribes and either an IC occurs which then will result in one tribe booting someone and a Ghost returning. Supposedly we are supposed to look for a dark haired guy, young and older woman as the offical returnees? Or perhaps this got lost in the context of ALL of them returning but if there are three returning they may end up winning the following challenges that come along.

But naturally this is all spec on my part

Perhaps the II takes place in part 2. So no one gets voted off on the next episode because 3 days hasn't fully passed yet in Survivor land.

I'm sooo disturbed by this whole ghost tribe and dead coming back to life thing!

Just some thoughts: Considering that 1, MB himself said that they don't bring back a player into the game despite persistent rumors that 1 or 3 losers go back; and 2, the vidcaps show LL tribe has some role in the next episodes, I believe LL tribe won't have an effect in the general dynamics of the game. They will only play a role during reward challenges. If it were a tribe RC, they play as a tribe. Once the tribes merge, the Losers also partake in the Individual RC as individuals. The reason why they come back is either 1, to lessen the possibilities and benefits of winning reward challenges for the remaining ten (winning RC has other psychological advantage, too, you know, not just material), or 2, they become part of a 13 person jury, or 3, they are just there to make life a living hell for the ten remaining survivors who threw them to loser lodge.

I personally believe that they do not compete for II because it's unfair. MB and J.Pro are not like that. In fact, they like it that the two tribes are now equal in number, i.e. strength as well. That's precisely why they didn't let Rupert stay permanently with Morgan. They do not want either tribe to have an edge over the other once fake merge/merge comes. This is also why, since Africa, the switcheroo came in and in Thailand, the fake merge came in. I think MB is already pleased with how things are turning out in the past 6 seasons, where a mix of strong OR highly favored individuals (ethan, rich, bryan) and weaker OR less favored individuals (Vecepia, Jenna, Tina) turn out to be winners.

A P.S. to my speculation is that, judging from the vidcaps, the LL tribe seems at an advantage-- think smaller bodies (nicole, michelle, ryan S, trish and lill could easily fit into dug-out holes underneath the cage) and smaller arms (which are easier to set free when tied); and think a buffed, strong person, Burton, as the one racing to get tools or implements to dig up holes or cut rope or destroy cages. In the end, LL tribe wins the reward challenge and ransacks both tribes (ala maraaumu ransacking the other tribe), leaving nothing for the tribes, pre-merge! Ain't that an awesome possibility?!

I further think that having LL tribe members join RCs post-merge removes the bias away from those who win more RC. Frequent RC winners are usually voted off just because they've won enough already or are seen as threats. With LL members around, even after the merge, it's possible that none of the ten win an RC.

I have a rather poor record in spoiling, and if this has been posted already somewhere in this thread, my apologies. This is just some attempt at thrashing this whole coming back from the dead episode. I find it unfair for the ten real survivors who reach the merge, who have worked soooo hard to reach where they are, yet are given less chances at a million bucks by bringing in the LOSERS (who are , technically, real losers anyway)-- ooops. Something for Bashers, I think. . . so off I go...

Say Drake won the challenge, than The ghost tribe would vote out someone from morgan, but if the ghosts won, than both tribes would have to vote on one of them to return to the game. I don't see the ghos tribe as an actual "tribe", or all of them returning to the game. The ghost tribe buffs are just purple cloths, and the idea of bringing everone back woiuld seriously mess up the season's timing.

What if the challenge is at the same time a team and an individual challenge??

-the three teams have to compete to escape the cage and race to a finish line.
-but if the first contestant to finish the race is a ghost, then he/she can return into the game and send packing the last contestant to cross the line?

Others have mentioned this as a possibility, I think, but it may deserve another look based upon the CBS misdirection.

Each tribe is locked up together to try and get out as soon as possible. However, the goal of the challenge is, as individuals, to be one of the first ten people across the finish line. If any of the ghosts are not in that first 10, then they lose any chance to stay in the game. However, any of the 10 non-bootees to not make the first 10 become open to challenge by a ghost that did. (With the challenge taking place in Ep8.)

There is still the incentive for tribes to work together to get everyone out so your tribal alliance remains strong going into the merge. However, what if one of the tribes is lagging (still has someone tied up when the other two are working on the door), and the person still tied up sacrifices their chance to be safe from challenge to get everyone else out? Wouldn't this decision to sacrifice yourself be the "monumental decision"?

Just a possibility.

How about this.

This could be a challenge designed to reveal AND break down alliances.

Tribes start off in the cage. Drake frees Drake, Morgan frees Morgan, Ghosts frees Ghost.

As each tribe is freed they sprint to an INDIVIDUAL challenge, maybe build a fire to snap a rope. This would allow for a shuffling of players regardless of what order they came out of the jail.

After the individual challenge, maybe it's a 3 person challenge to dig a treasure chest out of the sand, but you can't start digging until you have 3 people FROM ANY TRIBE to help you. So, the first 3 people to this challenge could be Rupert, RyanO, Michelle.

So these 3 would have a choice, Form a 3 person team and start digging, or wait for more Drake/Morgan/Ghosts join you.

The 1st few people might wait for more Drake/Morgan/Ghosties, but tribal alliances would quickly break down as people get desperate to start digging and would form improve 3 person digging teams.

After you dig up the "treasure chest" inside could be 3 coins, each person on the digging team takes a coin and sprints to the finish line.

At the finish line could be 5 pieces of wood, each piece of wood could have 2 notches cut. Place your coin in a notch, when another player puts their coin in the ajoining notch you both make the merge.

First 10 players with their coin in a notch make the merge, the last 6 players are out of the game. This would allow MB to make the comment that "we don't bring anyone back" (MB/JP didn't bring anyone back - The Players Brought them back By who they decided to pair up with). It would be random enough that atleast a couple Ghosties would get back into the game. It would throw into question alliances - Christa might question her alliance with Rupert if Rupert didn't wait for her and instead formed an alliance of convenience with RyanO and Michelle to start digging.
It leaves us with 10 players - the right number for the Merge.

Can I have some of the water you're drinking? What an interesting idea. You may need to stand in line with Brownroach to work for MB. Love the idea, would make for an intersting end to this S7.

Intriguing idea, mavsfan, yeah. I think you're right that there's a major element of alliance-busting to this challenge rather than it obviously being the point at which Ghost is competing to reinsert booted players. I think the cage challenge is the primer for a reinsertion challenge -- it's MB's opportunity to expose existing alliances *before* the addition of potentially disruptive returning players, meaning the choice of who comes back is more strategically significant.

I was pondering yesterday that Jon is really in an untenable position on Drake now, and would need more brains and savvy to negotiate his way out of it than he actually has, and therefore he needs help to avoid being the obvious next bootee next time Drake votes. Since MB's primary goal in life is to avoid obviousness, the necessary help in situations like this is usually given in the form of an alliance-buster like chopping away other people's three ropes or blowgunning their clay mask, so that the clearly isolated people can have a chance to approach other "less preferred" tribe members to see if a new alliance can be formed against those who have just demonstrated that they consider themselves the front runners. It seems to work every time.

One spoiler we've heard is that Ryan O. gets the boot as a direct result of one twist. Perhaps it is he who ends up -- using your example -- without his gold doubloon in a slot with someone else's, on account of waiting for a buddy to join him and then being beaten to the pairing at the last moment.

Another thing that supports this being some kind of alliance-buster is the fact that people are tied up differently so they have individualized challenges within the larger team challenge. We see Christa heavily roped at the wrists, tied to a pole in the middle of the cell, here:

But we see Rupert tied less heavily to a crossbar:

And Osten apparently tied similarly to Rupert:

Neither Osten nor Rupert appears to be struggling to free himself, so presumably they must wait to be freed by someone else. However, Christa appears likely to have freed herself, as she is seen helping to dig Shawn into the cell while Rupert, still tied up, looks on; if either of Jon or Sandra were free at this point, presumably they'd be helping her dig Shawn in. So there's additional support for your theory that there's a more complex series of events in this challenge than just a regular jailbreak -- there are clearly individual cells in the cages, and there must be some choosing as to who gets helped next, thereby exposing (or underlining, as the case may be) existing alliances for the purposes of letting underdogs have a chance to view that they are underdogs and therefore unite against the alliance at a later TC.

In any event, your idea for a challenge when alliance-busting is needed is magnificent. I'm envisaging it playing out and it makes for a great contest -- so much so that I hope I'm not disappointed by the real thing when we see it. ;)

What if the Ghost Tribe is used as a timer? They have to free 6 in the same amount of time the other tribes have to free 5, but any current players still trapped when the GT gets out completely are elimintaed from the game and replaced by ghost members.

I'm also tring to figure out how Lil is the one that returns. My guess is that the current players vote on which ghost to return. Lil would be seen as honest, nice, and not a threat to win immunity.

Very intriguing idea, mavsfan. It seems like the people on this board come up with much more imaginative scenarios than MB!

I don't think this challenge is designed to create a mix-up that determines who goes into the merge, though. I think the sole purpose is to have the three tribes competing against each other, even if there are other parts to the challenge after the escape. One tribe will win, one will come in second, and one will lose.