WHAT? DON'T YOU WATCH EVERY SINGLE EPISODE? DON'T YOU WATCH EVERY SECOND OF IT? SHAME ON YOU PEOPLE! Just kidding, but if you do watch every second of every episode (like me, it's my favorite show) you will know that on Episode #4, I think it was Frank and Margerata (well actually just Margerata) that said: "Bill and Joe are such jerks, and at the beggining of the race they said something about gay guys are going to win." I don't think that that is the exact quote, but something close to it. Anyway, after they go onto the Amazing Race Mat (elimination point, AKA pitstop) they always smooch a little. And on Episode #5 (the latest episode) when they were doing that walkie-talkie thing when one guy was coming down from the roof the other guy grabbed his @$$ and started squeezing (supposed to be helping him down, HA!). When I think of them, I think of Robert Smigel's SNL cartoon "The Ambiguously Gay Duo". Can you blame me? I hate gays. But before I knew they were gay, I hated them. Who wouldn't. And on the previews from the next episode at the end of each episode, it said something about blocked plane traffic and Team Guido doing an unfair thing. Nancy said something about owing an apoligy, Drew said something about they're outcast, and the other teams were pi$$ed too. What could they have done? I'm tuning in!

• RE: Proof that Team Gaywad... err... Guido, is gay...,sleeeve, 07:27 PM, 10-12-01
  • Agree with sleeeve,AyaK, 08:41 PM, 10-12-01
    • Me too, agree w/ sleeeve,Gypsy, 09:18 PM, 10-12-01
• Two Little Words...,IceCat, 09:28 PM, 10-12-01
  • sleeve,pccraver, 03:21 AM, 10-13-01
    • RE: sleeeve,sleeeve, 03:42 AM, 10-13-01
      • sleeeve,pccraver, 11:33 AM, 10-13-01
        • maturity and tolerance,Frau Hexe, 12:08 PM, 10-13-01
        • RE: sleeeve,sleeeve, 00:14 AM, 10-14-01
          • RE: sleeeve,Gr8tfl Grl, 11:46 AM, 10-15-01
          • Just my opinion,GodBlessAmerica, 06:32 PM, 10-18-01
            • RE: Just my opinion,Frau Hexe, 05:39 PM, 10-19-01
              • RE: Just my opinion,GodBlessAmerica, 06:01 PM, 10-19-01
            • Christianity and Homosexuality,sleeeve, 03:33 AM, 10-20-01
              • RE: Christianity and Homosexuality,PagongRatEater, 02:52 PM, 10-22-01
• RE: Proof that Team Gaywad... err... Guido, is gay...,dekko, 01:44 PM, 10-15-01
  • RE: Proof that Team Gaywad... err... Guido, is gay...,Frau Hexe, 02:23 PM, 10-15-01
  • RE: Proof that Team Gaywad... err... Guido, is gay...,ClifWillSurviiive, 08:45 AM, 10-17-01
    • RE: Proof that Team Gaywad... err... Guido, is gay...,Bebo, 10:05 AM, 10-18-01
• RE: Proof that Team Gaywad... err... Guido, is gay...,katem, 03:30 PM, 10-17-01
  • RE: Proof that Team Gaywad... err... Guido, is gay...,Frau Hexe, 07:04 PM, 10-17-01
    • RE: Proof that Team Gaywad... err... Guido, is gay...,jecox90, 05:02 PM, 10-19-01
      • RE: Proof that Team Gaywad... err... Guido, is gay...,Drive My Car, 02:00 PM, 10-22-01

>WHAT? DON'T YOU WATCH EVERY SINGLE
>EPISODE? DON'T YOU WATCH EVERY
>SECOND OF IT? SHAME ON
>YOU PEOPLE

Ummm... perhaps if you'd watched every minute of the show, you would have noticed that they were introduced as "life partners" and wouldn't have had to keep your hatred and intolerance turned off for so long.

<<<I hate gays.>>>

I'm sorry to hear that you hate people for something they can't change. If everyone announced that they hated straight people, and asked you to start being attracted to someone of the same sex as yourself, how would you feel??? Pretty bad, probably... you can't help but be attracted to people of the opposite sex in the same way that homosexual people cannot help but be attracted to people of the same sex. It's not a choice... it's a part of who they are.

So... my question is: do you hate all people that are different from you, but can't do anything about it??? Do you hate black people because they don't have the decency to change the color of their skin??? Do you discriminate against women because they're female, and belong in the kitchen??? Do you blame all people of Arab decent because a handful of psychos did something unconcievable on September 11th??? Do you worship Adolph Hitler for the ideals that he espoused???

Just wondering, because you'd probably enjoy a little group called the KKK.

If you said "How dare you ask me those questions... all I hate are gays." Then I suggest you take a look at yourself in the mirror. A while back in the US, people justified slavery by saying "those people are different from us"... and if we don't learn from history, we are doomed to repeat it.

>But before I
>knew they were gay, I
>hated them. Who wouldn't.

I agree that they aren't very likable... but hate them for the way that they act... not for something they can't change.

I, for one, hope that they are happy, and I'm glad that the two of them are lucky enough to have found a loving relationship... may we all be as lucky.

There are LOTS and LOTS of GOOD reasons to hate Team Guido, pccraver, but I'm afraid you aren't going to have many friends around here if you hate them just because they are gay and then post about it. That's not because so many of us are gay, but because THIS IS INTENDED TO BE A TOLERANT BOARD. It isn't a question of us being PC; it's a question of whether we want to be inclusive to all, and we already made that choice: we do. I don't care if being gay is biological, psychological, or sociological -- it isn't pathological.

Frankly, I'm happy that they found each other --- who else would want either of them?

>Frankly, I'm happy that they found
>each other --- who else
>would want either of them?

and Mr. AyaK - LMAO at this one!

'I hate...'

These words, once uttered, say far more about speaker than they do anyone else...

I cannot express how much what you said was 99.999999999999999999999% incorrect. But I can say at least I am not a Thong Contest Judge. I am just an innocent got milk spokes.

I'm sorry that you don't believe in 99.999999999999999999999% of what I said.

I have to wonder what the 0.000000000000000000001% that you believed was, considering that I made three points:

1) Team Guido is gay (okay... we're 33.333333333333333333333% in agreement already).

2) Being gay is not a choice... it's a fact of life. (I assume that we're 33.333333333333333333333% in disagreement here, although I'd love to cite scientific evidence, but I will admit that for every piece of evidence I could cite, you could find a piece of evidence to suggest the contrary.)

3) I agree that, without regard to sexual preference, Team Guido is not very likable (Since I was directly agreeing with your statement, I assume that we're 33.333333333333333333333% in agreement here).

I wasn't going to respond to this again, but you addressed me by name, and your strongest argument was that I was a thong contest judge (hmmm... I have a little title by my name, so it must make me a bad person)...

I was hoping that you'd have some sort of explanation for your bigotry... something tells me that being a "Got Milk Spokesman" isn't enough.

Once again, enjoy your hate-filled life... bye.


You never know what might be up my sleeeve...

Do you hate spinach? Do you hate broccili? Think of a food you hate.

Do you hate 20-20? Do you hate 60 minutes? Think of a TV program you hate.

You hate those things for a reason, they taste bad, or they have bad taste.

<quote by sleeeve>

So... my question is: do you hate all people that are different from you, but can't do anything about it??? Do you hate black people because they don't have the decency to change the color of their skin??? Do you discriminate against women because they're female, and belong in the kitchen??? Do you blame all people of Arab decent because a handful of psychos did something unconcievable on September 11th??? Do you worship Adolph Hitler for the ideals that he espoused???

Just wondering, because you'd probably enjoy a little group called the KKK.

<unquote>

Aside from this argument, how do you know I am not black?

I hate gays for a reason. The thought of hating blacks or women are totally absurd. And the fact that you said I worship Hitler and said I might like to join the KKK has made me believe you are none more than 9 years old. A mature person would know how to use those words at the correct time, if not at all. That was very inappropriate. You made your comment. But those 2 paragraphs were simply disturbing.

Now run along to 4th grade, you don't want to be late.

I've been biting my tongue for some time trying not to respond to your post because it seemed to me that, like many children, you simply wanted attention. However, I cannot avoid this any longer, especially now that you've resorted to calling one of the most intelligent, articulate people I've seen on these boards a child. A child would be so lucky to have sleeeve's candor and poise.

I am one of the few gay people on this board, and I took direct offense to what you said--not because I think you should like me. Hell, I don't even know you. But that's exactly my point. How can you hate an entire group of people whom you don't even know, whom (and I'm guessing here) you would not even take the time to know if you had the opportunity?

My guess is that Team Guido and other gay people represent something that you don't understand, that even if you tried, you couldn't wrap your brain around because it's beyond your realm of personal experience. The fact is, gay people are regular ole human beings who can be happy, sad, hurt, angry, deceitful, and kind just like any straight person. We just happen to fall in love with people of our same sex.

Now, speaking as a gay person (and I know many other gay people who feel this way too), I would not have chosen a life of second-class citizenry had I the choice, but you know, we learn to cope, we adapt to what life hands us; unfortunately, sometimes life hands us intolerance and hatred for no apparent reason.

My challenge to you is to explain to me precisely why you hate me, my partner, Team Guido, and any other gay people you can think of (I'm doubting you actually know any). Be rational about it; give me specific reasons. My guess is, you'll resort to the same sort of immature, childlike behavior you accused sleeeve of, which won't prove anything but your ignorance.

Frau Hexe

>>Do you hate spinach? Do you hate broccili? Think of a food you hate. Do you hate 20-20? Do you hate 60 minutes? Think of
a TV program you hate. You hate those things for a reason, they taste bad, or they have bad taste.<<

Okay... I HATE asparagus... can't stand it... but I don't attack asparagus. I don't accuse those that eat it of having bad taste. I respect their decision and admire their courage. I just choose to avoid eating asparagus.

Similarly, I am a straight male, and would HATE to have a same-sex relationship... I find the male body repulsively unattractive, and have no idea how straight women and gay men could find anything about it alluring (although I'm glad they do...)

However, I do not avoid those that choose this as their life-style. I respect their choice and admire their courage to do so publically in a world where many are intolerant of their decision. A number of my close friends are gay... but I can assure you that neither my sexual preference nor the sexual preference of my friends affects our relationship at all.

>>Aside from this argument, how do you know I am not black?<<

I don't, and never said that I thought you were.

>>I hate gays for a reason.<<

Reasons you've given so far:
1) You hate them... end of story.

Well... that's not a reason, so I'll try to start again with reasons:
1) Team Guido is evil, and is gay.
counterpoint: Jerri was evil, but most people don't use that as an excuse to hate women.

2) sleeeve is 9 years old, and is a thong contest judge.
counterpoint: I am not nine years old and am not a thong contest judge anywhere, but on this board... but I think you were just using hyperbole, so I'll let it slide. Oops... did the nine year old just use a big word liie hyperbole... here's the definition, if you need it: "A figure of speech in which exaggeration is used for emphasis or effect"

3) They taste like broccoli ...or something like this... I got lost after you told me that broccoli had bad taste and 20/20 tasted bad...
counterpoint: I suspect they taste like chicken... doesn't everything???

Perhaps I'm missing something, but you've given NO reasons at all, other than the fact that you are unwilling to accept what you don't understand.

>>The thought of hating blacks or women are totally absurd.<<

Uh oh... we agree wholeheartedly on this one!!!! I can't imagine hating someone just because they were different from myself. Especially if their difference was something that they could not change about themself.

>>And the fact that you said I worship Hitler and said I might like to join the KKK has made me believe you are none more than 9 years old.<<

Perhaps you should reread my original post. I asked you a series of questions, and said that *if* you answered yes to any of them, you should consider the KKK... it was your own reading (influenced by a guilty conscience???) that caused you to misinterpret this to mean that I thought you believed those things.

If you're gonna quote me, let's continue with the quote:

<quote from sleeeve>
If you said "How dare you ask me those questions... all I hate are gays." Then I suggest you take a look at yourself in the mirror. A while back in the US, people justified slavery by saying "those people are different from us"... and if we don't learn from history, we are doomed to repeat it.
</quote>

There's the rest... I said that if you had the precise reaction that you had (specifically shock and outrage at my comments) that maybe you should consider your specific comment as well...

Maybe I should be even more precise:
How is it different to hate gays than it is to hate any other minority group of people? Do you have specific justification, or is it just because you fail to see the parallels between hatred of the groups that I named, and the one that you choose to hate?

>>A mature person would know how to use those words at the correct time, if not at all. That was very inappropriate.<<

Recently on this site, we've had discussions (predominantly on the Love Cruise Board) about discrimination against blacks, respect for women, unjust retribution against all people of Islamic faith, and discrimination against Jews. I didn't choose these four examples by accident. I know that there are some people on this board that have read my message that are ardent defenders of all four of these groups... the fact that none of them have responded to my post in a negative manner leads me to believe that they felt that I used them in a "mature" manner and at the "correct time".

>>You made your comment. But those 2 paragraphs were simply disturbing.<<

Yes, you're right... they were worded to offend you (and any other close-minded individuals). It appears that I succeeded... so my question to you is: How come comments about racism, sexism, and religious intolerance are offensive, while hatred for someone's sexual orientation is both accepable and appropriate?

You never know what might be up my sleeeve...

When I read the original post here I was shocked and immediatley wanted to respond to pccraver. But, sleeve, you have done a wonderful job! I will not waste any more of my time on someone who is what I call a "Hate Monger" Unfortunately, there are too many in this world. You would think in times like these, their would be more tolerance, peace and love. I can only hope that maybe this disagreement will lead to pccraver's eyes being opened.

I can't stand team Guido, for oh so many reasons, none of them being that they are gay.

That being said, I do feel that I should state a few things for those of us with a differing opinon.

I don't hate gay people, in fact I know some great people who happen to be gay. I do however, believe the gay lifestyle to be wrong. It happens to be because of my religious beliefs. What I think we all need to remember is that you can disagree with the actions and not hate the person.

In every society, in every country, in every city and every group of people everywhere you have bad people. No one should judge a whole group of people by the actions of one or two.

Hate team Guido, that's fine, I know I do, but don't hate gay people because of them. Disagree with the actions and lifestyle of gay people, I believe that to be just, but don't hate the person.

So you disagree with love, then? You have a problem with love?

Makes a lot of sense to me.

Frau Hexe

I don't believe that homosexual love is a natural love. I believe it to be wrong and not something that you are born with. I am not asking anyone to believe that way just because I do and I'm not trying to put anyone down. I have a right to my beliefs, just as anyone has a right to theirs.

The point of my post wasn't to proclaim my beliefs and push them on anyone; I just wanted to state that all people that don't necessarily agree with homosexuality don't automatically jump to hatred.

That's all I was trying to say.

>I don't hate gay people, in
>fact I know some great
>people who happen to be
>gay. I do however,
>believe the gay lifestyle to
>be wrong. It happens
>to be because of my
>religious beliefs.

I'm sorry to jump to conclusions here, because I believe that makes me no better than those that those that "hate" gays, but I am going to assume that your comments relate to Christianity in one of its many forms.

First of all, I am a Christian, and one that believes in a God of love and forgiveness. I think that it's admirable and respectful of you to post that you don't hate someone for something that you percieve to be wrong... unfortunately many people claiming Christianity as their motivation are not as accepting.

When I first responded to this thread, I admit that it was because I wanted to use it as a forum to educate. I have since admitted to Webby that I was wrong to do so, because it's impossible to educate someone that enters a debate with hate and without a willingness to listen... with your messages on the subject, I feel optimistic that my posts here might do some good, after all.

Usually, when people start anti-gay commentary, the bible is used as justification for those comments. This really irks me, because it often makes Christians look bad to the surrounding community. I've heard people say a number of times that they would never join the Christian cult that could have such horribly close-minded views.

While I would still be involved in the gay rights movement even if this wasn't a factor, I will admit that one of the reasons that I am a strong promoter of gay rights is that I hope to educate those within the Christian community about something that they do not understand.

The majority of anti-Christian sentiment comes from a few mis-translated and misunderstood passages from the bible. To be breif, the bible does not condone rape, idol worship, disgrace of God, or a laid-back attitude toward worshipping God. Nowhere does the bible (by which I mean the original translation) mention rules about homosexuality (either prohibiting or accepting it).

At the end of this message, there is a link to a paper written by a right-wing conservative minister who set out to find out whether being homosexual was against the bible or not. His only goal was to interpret the bible from its original language in its original context, and to find out specifically what it said on the subject.

His findings were, surprisingly, not what the majority of so-called Christian scholars claim.

To those that are reading this thread: I would only read the article if you have a real desire to learn about the bible, cause it's a pretty long read. But I would like to request two other things from you, no matter what:

1) If you insist on claiming that anti-homosexuality is approved by the bible, then please also preach about the sins of wearing colored clothing... because the bible clearly says that those that wear dyed clothes should be burned to death.

2) If you refuse to read the article below, then promise me that you will never use Christianity as an excuse to harbor intolerance again. It makes those of us that are Christian, but still approve of the gay lifestyle look bad!... at least take the time to read about what the bible really has to say on the subject, instead of taking what others have told you at face-value.

Click here to learn more: Christianity and Homosexuality

You never know what might be up my sleeeve...

Thank you for the post sleeve. I DID read the article you referenced and actually thought the author did a lot of verbal gymnastics to get to his point and at some points flat out twisted scripture to support his own opinion. Not that this makes him unique, most religious "scholars" can use the same scripture to support opposite views.

Personally, I could tell you what I think of homosexuality both politically and personally. However, I don't think that this is a forum for poltical and religious debates. PCCRAVER has made his(?) points badly with a maximum of ad hominem attacks and a minimum of substance. Fourth grade name calling and a lack of respect for others is not fitting for a democracy or a Christian.

I would like to ask that this be the last post on this subject so we can all get back to the great cause that unites us...hating Team Guido.

LAST EDITED ON 10-15-01 AT 02:26 PM (EST)

Hi there.

I hate Team Guido.

But I don't hate Team Guido because they're gay.

I hate Team Guido because they're creepy and wear matching outfits and have a little dog and irritate everyone and condescend to other people and can't pronounce "Foucoult" correctly and sit by themselves and don't talk to anyone else and DO EVERYTHING RIDICULOUSLY CREEPY STEREOTYPICAL GAY VILLAINS ARE SUPPOSED TO DO. (See "Diamonds are Forever" for reference.)

See, I'm gay. And I hate Team Guido not because they're gay, but because they're irritating twits.

Hating groups of people is just plain lazy. The wiser man looks deep into an individual person's soul and finds a reason to hate them on the INSIDE.

It's usually not that hard.

Thank you.

Bravo dekko--beautiful, funny, and perfectly poignant post. You've listed all the reasons I hate Team Guido and more--shall we add to the list that they love to boast about their year or two in Paris, but neither can speak French very well?

That aside, you make an excellent point. Of course, it may be lost on the caveman to whom you responded, but the rest of us appreciate it immensely. Hope to see you posting more often. It looks like you'll fit in well here.

Frau Hexe

I agree completely dekko!! Being gay myself, I am constantly annoyed at the representation we have been getting on the reality tv shows. I used to think Richard Hatch was a poor representative for our bretheren but compared to some of the more recent ones, he is a UN Goodwill Ambassador.

What with the attrocious behavior of Team Guido on Amazing Race (Here is a clue: Those who have to flaunt their "excellent" ettiquette, good manners, and breeding are bringing in 0 points on all three) and with the crybaby whining (more like wailing) of Bunky the Bunny on Big Bro II, the gay population cannot catch a break.

It would be nice if the Lawyer Team WAS gay, not only because they are good looking, but because they areexceptionally decent compared to the stereotype twins.

Good point about stereotypes, Clif.

I know I get frustrated when heterosexuals are represented as gay-bashing, hatred-filled and closed-minded. Unfortunately, it can be true -- since in most cases the representations are by straight people themselves -- but it's a shame that that is the case.

When I see the gay stereotype represented on TV, I just blame it on lazy and uncreative writers and producers.

I have been reading all your postings and I have to say that I am happy and proud that there are heterosexual people like Sleeeve out there, thanks my friend.
Also, it makes me happy and proud as well to read fellow gays like Frau Hexe and dekko, your words hit the target right on the bullseye.
Finally, I am not as eloquent as these three people or the others that have posted messages on this forum, so they will forgive me for being unoriginal and little crude when I say to you pccraver, that YOU ARE AN IDIOT, GROW UP !!

Nicely said, katem--and for what it's worth, I think concision like this IS elloquence.

Frau Hexe

Frau Hexe- They do not speak French well at all. Does anyone know where Margaritta learned?

What I find amusing about this show is most of the "couples" are all sterotypical. Such as Lenny and Karen.

I do not like Team Guido. I could care less what they do sexually. BUT the matching clothes and opening scene where they are toasting is beyond bizzare.

Team Guido is Gay???????

Ebuggy waves at all her wonderful smart friends