Or a Final four with neleH!

"I love all of you. Vote for me, please."

Or a Final four

don't.

even.

joke.

You're right. We should throw in Matthew for a final five. Maybe add everyone from Fiji minus Earl and Yau-man. Then we have a season.

/sarcasm

That's everyone including Melissa, right? 'cause we need a jury of about twenty.

Of course. You know this could probably start a topic on the seven most incoherent jury members. Should Lisi be in all spots?

Come on -- you can't exclude Fire Dancer Courtney, or she'll never let you swim in the Sea Of Forgiveness.

Then I guess that means Janu and Shane are in too. And never forget anyone who had people pick a number.

C'mon ... you can't leave out the Ulongs ...soon we'll have enough for 2 seasons.

I think Stephen knew he had zero chance of winning, and only hoped he might get one vote. It wasn't so much that Stephen looked so bad as the jury absolutely fawned over JT, and asked Stephen different kinds of questions.

Another thing, FTC lasted about 5 hours and they may have pulled out the worst of Stephens responses, while not showing us his best answers.

Stephen vs. Amanda .... Stephen, possibly a landslide.

Amanda would do worse. Stephen was going up against J.T. and this hindered his effectiveness. If he'd been going up against someone else, he might've had a better chance. Amanda's just not good at defending herself.

Stephen choked, sure...but he wasn't going to win. Going to F2 against J.T. was a little like going to the NCAA women's basketball championship against this season's UConn team - you're just going to lose. Stephen could have given speeches that made Reagan and FDR look like Quayle and GWB by comparison, and J.T. still would have won by at least a 5-2 margin.

Amanda, however, should have won China and should have won Fans vs. Favorites. Had she raked Todd over the coals and made Parvati look like a fool, which were both doable (it's simple - play to the China jury's hate regarding Todd and Courtney, and while she's at it, play to Jason and Eliza's hate) then she has $2 million in the bag and sets a record that will undoubtedly never be matched - win Survivor twice.

Stephen choking was the same as John McCain picking Sarah Palin and getting quoted saying, "Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran" - as pissed off as the U.S. was, Obama was taking it to the house no matter what, and McCain's errors only succeeded in making it worse. Amanda, however, was John Kerry in '04 - by all accounts, she should have won it, but she misplayed her hand.

Come on, man. Even the democrats knew John Kerry had no chance. Why do you think they nominated him instead of the much stronger candidate- Hillary Clinton? They were biding their time for another 4 years rather than perhaps waste a good candidate. They are well aware this country has never voted out an incumbent president during a time of war. We still believed we were at war in 2004 (versus today when we appear to be dancing among the tulips.) John Kerry's lack of charisma made Michael Dukakis look like George Washington in comparison.
Amanda had little shot to win China. Todd was well-liked and made more strategic moves. Playing the bitterness card wouldn't have worked on that jury, which was about her only shot. Her poor performance is somewhat overstated in history, I believe, because Todd's performance was arguably the best ever.
Amanda did fine during FTC in Micronesia. The votes were already decided beforehand. Parvati got the votes from the people she spent the most time with while Amanda got the votes of the people that spent the most time with her, excepting James who spent more time with Parvati and yet voted for Amanda. The key was Cerie's vote, which was never justified by anything other than hypocritical bitterness over Amanda doing the same to Cerie that Cerie would have done to Amanda.
A good argument could be made that the worst FTC performance of all time was by my fave- Rob Mariano. Yeah, he faced unprecedented bitterness from the most pathetic jury ever, but he just sat there and took it instead of defending himself. I really feel with the right defense that vote was completely winnable. For one thing, he should have told Lex and Kathy that he betrayed them because he fell in love with Amber. Since both were friends of his, I think Lex might have forgiven Rob to a large extent if he had just explained that was the reason. Such an admission might have also changed Alicia's mind and got him that vote as well. He only would have needed one.

The ultimate FTC would be Shane v. Dreamz v. Coach. I think Jeff Probst wins that one.

>

LAST EDITED ON 05-28-09 AT 06:46 PM (EST)

Oh, Fun! Another jury discussion!

Cirie joined the F3 with Amanda and Parvati on the condition that they get rid of their boy toys. Parvati and Cirie decided the Ozzy vote while Amanda was still doing googly eyes at him. It was because of Parvati's connection to Natalie and Alexis that Cirie could arrange the Jason and the Erik boots. Cirie and Parvati played the game together while Amanda, except for finding an idol, was a spectator until F4. That explains Cirie's vote.

The A$$ jury was angry for good reason. Morono was not only bad in front of the jury, he was horrible in the game itself. The Robfather was celebrating after every vote, figuratively dancing on the graves of those who had been snuffed. I laughed at his antics but I realized how socially unacceptable that was. Morono deserved the beating he received at FTC.

Amanda was allied with Ozzy. So obviously she'd have no role in his boot. Parvati used her girls club from the tribe she was fortunate to be switched to get rid of Ozzy, a move Cerie was all for. Obviously, with the center of her side alliance removed, Amanda had no choice but to concede power to Parv and Cerie and hope to ride along. However, I seem to remember Amanda playing roles in both Jason and especially Erik's boot. Plus, she found the idol and won the ICs necessary to keep herself around when others were afraid to face her in the Finals. Erinn could have made the Finals if she did half as well. To talk like Amanda did nothing and went UTR or something after Ozzy's boot would be a sad distortion of history.
Mariano was dancing after boots? Gloating during TCs? Huh. I guess I missed that the 3 times I've watched All-Stars. I thought Lex and Tom didn't vote for Rob because he betrayed them, Alicia didn't vote for him because they had promised each other to never write each other's name down, and Shi Ann of course because she predicted Amber would win and few people like to be right more than Shi Ann. Not sure where Rob's supposed terrible play comes into that. Maybe I need to watch the season a 4th time. Not sure.

>

"However, I seem to remember Amanda playing roles in both Jason and especially Erik's boot."

I remember quite differently: For Jason, it was Parvati, Alexis and mainly Natalie convincing Jason that he was safely in their alliance in order to vote him out and keep the HII out of play.

For Erik, it was all Cirie. The only role Amanda played was to serve as bait. Cirie's plan was to have Natalie tell Erik that the 3 of them could vote against Amanda if Erik gave Natalie his HII.

Morono used friendships and then rejoiced in hurting his former friends. He played Survivor like a con game, forgetting that the pay-out depended on the decision of the conned players.

Prior to FTC Amanda had a legitimate shot at winning China. But you are right about Todd's performance being arguably one of the best ever to steal the win...but Amanda's doe-eye performance didn't help her cause any. My criticism of her China performance isn't so much that she lost to Todd, it's also that anorexic waste of a casting selection actually got more votes than her! Inexcusable.

In Skankivor: Micronesia I would say all the votes were decided before FTC with the exception of one - Eliza. That is where Doe-Eyes lost her chance at winning Skankivor: Micronesia. I know getting Eliza's vote would have created a tie, but Amanda said in a post-game interview that in the event of a tie Jeff had an envelope he would have opened on Reunion Night if the vote was 4-4. My presumption all along was a note in the envelope saying something to the effect "Congratulations...you BOTH won a Million Dollars!"

I know she's your favorite "girl" but her lousey performance was not overstated...it was...well...lousey. Sorry dude.

Oh Brother...where do I start with Rob M???!!!

Rob is living proof of the old saying, "Once you start lying, you can't stop."

It's one thing to be less-than-honest when you are forced to react and are placed between a rock and a hard place. It's another when you initiate lies. When you purposely seal the deal with a handshake and know immediately you will backstab and deceive. THAT is what created the bitterness and how Rob lost the game for himself.

You can't be serious and think Lex would have changed his vote if he professed his love for Amb"a" at FTC??? I'm laughing hysterically as I am typing this. Rob could have dropped at Amb"a"s feet the same way Matty did to his GF in Gabon and NOOOO way Lex gives Rob his vote.

Lying to Alicia is what screwed Rob over in the end. Like I said...once you start lying you can't stop. Yeah I know lying to Alicia's face was a back-up plan in the event Amb"a" got booted, but he could have waited until he knew that for sure before lying/backstabbing Alicia. It's not like Alicia had a long line of suitors vying for her alliance. Fact of the matter is Rob went a little poo-poo in his pants and panicked when separated from his love interest and relished the opportunity to do what he does best--lie in people's faces.

Gotta agree with my adversary Michel on this one...Rob was too caught up in his lying villian role he forget he needed their votes in the end.

LAST EDITED ON 05-31-09 AT 10:30 PM (EST)

Rob didn't play friends. Lex and Kathy did. Rob stayed true to Chapera and in the meantime made it one of the strongest Survivor tribes ever. The only time Rob leveraged his out of the game friendships was when he asked Lex to save Amber. Again, that was emotionally motivated. If Amber gets booted, he and her never have the experience of getting to the end of the game together, then who knows how that could have possibly changed their relationship. I doubt HIGHLY Rob regrets that move.
As far as the Alicia and Tom betrayals go, I have rewatched All-Stars and tried honestly to blame Rob for the moves he made to lose their votes, but you know what? I can't. The fact of the matter is Rob never makes FTC if he doesn't make the moves he made. He had a HUGE target on his back. Tom easily sides with Rupert and Jena and boots Rob at the F4, with Amber holding immunity, if Rob doesn't con him into believing Amber and Rob were with him. I don't see how you can say that was throwing Tom's vote away when Amber, who got Tom's vote, made the exact same promise and shook Tom's hand too. So, obviously, betraying Tom didn't cost AMBER his vote.
And only in hindsight can you blame Rob for Alicia. Yes, that was the alliance-too-many that cost Rob the game. BUT, anyone with any brains thinks Amber is gone at the next vote. Rob quickly moved to put Alicia in Amber's place to save his place in the game. Moving after Amber was gone would have been a move out of desperation from a weaker position. While Amber was still in the game, Rob still had enough power for Alicia to want to align with him. Of course, Lex's conviction that his out-of-game friendships would hold and place him in power led him to keep Amber, thus making the alliance with Alicia a liability instead of an asset. Unless Rob was a mind-reader or gifted with abnormal foresight, he had no way of seeing that happen. He proactively made the move he needed to make at the time.
The fact of the matter is we will never know if Rob could have changed Lex's mind by blaming his betrayal on emotion, but I'm not going to laugh if off as an impossibility. There WERE friends, right? And Lex was a married man himself. Either way, Lex was the first juror, and Rob's lack of defense only invited and encouraged the following attacks on his character. Frankly, as I've theorized in the past, Rob allowed Lex to affect him emotionally. He never recovered from the hurt Lex, a supposed good friend, put on him, and that was clear on his face. He looked like a scorned child.

Jason's not so much, but Amanda played a strong role in the infamous deception of Erik. Amanda was the one that Erik trusted the most. If she gives Erik any hint of betrayal, he never hands over the necklace.

>

"Rob didn't play friends"

LOL! Lex, Kathy, Tom and Rob had an alliance to the F4 before the game even started.

"Tom easily sides with Rupert and Jena and boots Rob at the F4, with Amber holding immunity..."

How many people vote at the F4? If Tom isn't voted out at F5, Rupert is. It would be quite hard then for Tom to side with Rupert at F4!

BTW, voting out Tom was a stupid move. Romber gave away their numbers advantage, resetting the game to 2 on 2. Rupert winning F4 immunity could have been disaster. With a Tom, Jenna, Romber F4, then they were safe. Tom hated Jenna and would have voted her off without second thoughts. Unless Tom won F4 immunity, Romber could choose which one to take to the F3. Either way, they wouldn't have had to twist anyone's arm like they had to by keeping the Jenna-Rupert pair.

"Amanda was the one that Erik trusted the most. If she gives Erik any hint of betrayal, he never hands over the necklace."

Why would Amanda give him a hint? He was the one player that could dominate her physically; she wanted him out. So, we can say that Amanda's big role was not being dumb.

I've never said that Amanda was dumb. In fact, I like her a lot as a player. All I've ever said was that Cirie voted for the player that played the best game according to her. Parvati made moves, Amanda was a spectator until F4. Parvati played a strategic game, Amanda a physical one. Cirie, being a strategic player herself, favored that type of player.

Rob, Lex and Kathy had an F4 alliance before the game started... Yeah, with Tom as well. But Rob decided not to play that alliance. He could have. He decided to stick with Chapera instead. Lex and Kathy were the ones banking on their friendships. Not Rob. Funny thing is- in order for Lex and Kathy's plan to work, they needed Tom to stick to it as well. According to Tom, that wasn't the case, as he was sticking with Chapera as well. So, actually, Lex's rant at FTC about "having my numbers" was inaccurate even if he does boot Amber instead of Jeri.
F4 vs. F5. Yeah, I meant the F5 vote to get down to F4. I'm sure you could figure that one out without me explaining it. Tom was the swing vote and could have went either way. I was wrong to say Amber won Immunity though. Rob had immunity at F5 and Amber was the one exposed. Amber won the crucial F4 immunity. If Rupert wins at F4, he likely wins All-Stars.
Going with Rupert and Jenna was stupid versus going with Big Tom? Maybe. Numbers-wise, can't argue with that. Rob had gotten wind a couple times that Big Tom was entertaining his ouster. He didn't trust him, and I think he wanted to stick it to him by getting rid of him first. Maybe he allowed emotions to lead him into a foolish strategic play. Sure. But on the otherhand, if Rob loses Jenna's and Rupert's votes by turning on them, better to lose 1 vote versus two.
Amanda formed game-controlling alliances throughout the season, same as she did in China. Parvati made more moves, yes, but was forced to because she switched tribes. Amanda already had the power in her own tribe and didn't need to make the moves Parvati did. By time the merge happened, Parvati already had her alliances, so it was too late for Amanda. All she could do was find a way to the end, which she did. Tremendous props for that. I never said the better player didn't win that season, just that the lesser person did. And I still say Amanda's feat of two finals in consecutive seasons is more impressive than winning.

>

>Parvati
>played a strategic game, Amanda
>a physical one. Cirie, being
>a strategic player herself, favored
>that type of player.

I see the Spin Doctor is at it again. I find it humorous when a castaway acts exactly the way they are and it is perceived as "strategy." Perv-ati advanced in both of her seasons because she acted like a skanky Ho. And why did she act like a skanky Ho? HMMMM...maybe because she IS a skanky Ho.

It's hard to be believe that Cirie's final vote in Skankivor: Micronesia was anything other than bitterness and sour grapes against Amanda. OK...allow ME to spin this around. Had the Perv won the final IC and casted her single vote to boot Cirie, you think "strategist" Cirie STILL votes for the Perv because she favors the so-called "strategist????"

Make no mistake about it...if the Perv wins the final IC, Cirie's final vote goes to Amanda...and I guess it would be because she "favored" the "strategist" Amanda???

I see the morality police is at it again. *YAWN*

Make no mistake about it; Parvati didn't care about winning the F3 challenge because she knew she was in Hatch's position.

Oh, I agree. Parvati was definitely better off losing the FIC. However, that being said, no reason to believe she would have beaten Amanda anyway. I am not as quick as Aruba to guarantee Cirie votes for Amanda if Parvati votes her off. I do think Cirie and Parvati had a connection with the way they played the game. Amanda was going to go the loyalty route, like she did in China, (a route I personally prefer to see), which was contrary to the game Cirie and Parvati played and not a tactic I think Cirie especially admired. On the other hand, based just off her own words for why she voted for Parvati, Cirie should have voted for Amanda if the reverse occurred. We will never know.
Parvati is one of the most dangerous social players to ever grace Survivor, as Jonathan pointed out from the get go of Micronesia. However, I believe she does need to be in the right group. Put her in an older tribe and people see thru her socialite strategy. She was fortunate to be surrounded by her peers in Micronesia.

>

"She was fortunate to be surrounded by her peers in Micronesia."

Every winner was fortunate in some way.

>I am not as quick as
>Aruba to guarantee Cirie votes
>for Amanda if Parvati votes
>her off.

I'm convinced Cirie becomes the latest "relic" in your "Ancient History" for two reasons:

1) In Cirie's post-game interview she was asked if Amanda had sung her praises and said the reason she voted her off was because Cirie was "unbeatable" and the one Jurors would vote most deserving of the million, would she have been less bitter with her vote? Her answer was "NO." She went on to say (and I don't recall the exact quote) after 37 days and coming so close to making the Finals she simply couldn't vote for the player that deprived her that opportunity.

2) Her reaction giving her parting words after the F3 TC said it all. Seeing someone cry when delivering their parting words is not an unusual occurrance, but I must say I was a bit surprised to see Cirie cry when Amanda voted her off. If anything it showed how crushed and disappointed she really was. I'm sure she would have shed the same tears if Perv-ati voted her off as well.

For those reasons there is NO doubt in my mind Cirie would not vote for anyone who ended her game at F3.

Doubt is the beginning not the end of wisdom.

Maybe you should refresh your memory before making such statements:

http://www.realitynewsonline.com/cgi-bin/ae.pl?mode=1&article=article8016.art&page=1

RNO: You voted for Parvati to win, right?
Cirie: Absolutely.

RNO: Why did you make that decision?
Cirie: Parvati and I basically did most of the dirty work through most of the game. Amanda tried to be friendly with everyone, and anything she had to with voting them out she kept secret. I think Parvati’s game was just as good as mine. But as I said to Amanda before my final Tribal Council, Parvati and I did most of the same thing and I did most of the talking. I felt like I played a slightly better game than Parvati, but Amanda didn’t do very much. She played a great game with the idol, but outside of that, she really didn’t do anything.

There's also:

http://www.realitytvworld.com/news/exclusive-cirie-fields-talks-about-her-survivor-micronesia-experience-7097.php

There, Cirie said she voted for Parvati because she was good with her answers while Amanda's answers weren't true. She also said that Parvati played a better game while Amanda just went along. She also conformed that everyone wanted to take Parvati to the end, my point that she was in Hatch's position.

Posting at Survivor Sucks, Cirie was challenged about having her vote decided by Amanda voting her out but she always said that she voted for the better player, the one who gave the better answers.

And, about being bitter about leaving at F3 in her final words, it was more about the surprise of having only 2 players facing the jury. Cirie thought it was going to be F3. She knew Amanda would vote her out just like she would have voted out Amanda.

We've been around and around about that before, though I still appreciate the information. But these interviews are all done after the fact, and any psychologist/sociologist would tell you that humans rarely make deliberate, rationally-thought-out decisions. We normally make off-the-cuff, emotional decisions and then attempt to rationalize them later, after the fact. What I'm basically saying is what Aruba and I have contended throughout, that there is a lot of revisionist history going on. I would contend logic dictates that Cirie's words one day before voting are a much more reliable indicator of her motivation than an interview given what? 6 months later? Plus, Cirie's opinion of what happened out there isn't exactly without question. I find it funny that Parvati and Amanda recruited a powerless Cirie into their alliance, and then Cirie pipes off afterwards how she made all these moves and Amanda didn't. Parvati brings Natalie and Alexis over to give them the power to take out Amanda's man alliance, and Cirie talks how she played this great game. Now, don't get me wrong, Cirie did play a very good game, and once again positioned herself where she needed to and proved to be one of the better manipulators in the game, but I think she plays a different game than Amanda, which typically means she has less respect for that kind of game. And I think it is pretty obvious she is giving herself too much credit and Amanda not enough. Amanda didn't need to make the moves Cirie did because she was in the power alliance throughout the game, which is what her game is all about, and when she needed to do something in the end, when Cirie wanted her gone, Cirie couldn't get rid of her because she found the idol and won the challenges that basically ruined Cirie's game. In Cirie's mind, and in others I reckon, Cirie played the better game but was robbed by Amanda's challenge run. In my mind, the challenges are a key part of the game and therefore AMANDA played the better game and deserved to be in the FTC, not Cirie. Cirie is just another in a long list of strong social and strategical players: Kathy O'brien, Rob C, Fairplay, Stephen... who could have won the game if they just could win ONE immunity challenge. Sorry, you can't discount the outplay part of the game; Amanda is a better player than Cirie. Amanda 2 FInals, Cirie 0. Nuff said...

>

"Amanda is a better player than Cirie. Amanda 2 FInals, Cirie 0. Nuff said..."

This thread is Stephen vs Amanda, not Cirie vs Amanda! The interviews were brought to show that Amanda does have a problem facing the jury. In both China and Micronesia, the jurors saw that she wasn't giving honest answers. Stephen's problem was mainly facing JT.

My point was that Cirie had reasons to vote for Parvati, that she didn't act out of bitterness. You seemed to agree a few posts up when you said that Cirie voted for the better player. Are you backtracking now? Anyway, those interviews are enough said on the subject.

Since you want to go off topic, I'll say this about Cirie vs Amanda: A 3rd and 4th place finish vs a 3rd and 2nd is statistically insignificant. Especially considering that it's impossible to strategize when you don't know the rules. Cirie arranged it so that she'd make the F3 in Micronesia and only James being medevaced changed that. The players were never informed until it was too late to make other plans.

Well, under a Stephen v Amanda thread, I would think discussion centered on Stephen or Amanda would be relevant to said thread.
Anyway, do you think Natalie, Alexis or Cirie vote for Amanda if in their mind she gives "honest" answers? I don't. I'm not going to try to gauge the mind or lack thereof of Jason, the guy Parvati called a "byotch" (justified or not) and yet still got his vote. Funny because the jury complaint about Amanda is that she is superficial. Yet, 3 guys vote for Amanda, 3 women vote for Parvati, with the "byotch" breaking the tie. Looking at it that way, you can easily say that Parvati wins by being more superficial than the allegedly superficial Amanda.
I pointed out in an above thread that Cirie and Parvati played a more similar game in Micronesia. Therefore, I'm not as certain as Aruba that she votes for Amanda if Parvati boots her. I was pointing out in my reply to the interview you posted that the interview might involve a lot of revisionist history and therefore doesn't necessarily prove anything. I wasn't backtracking. I stand by both statements.
Anyway, 3rd and 4th vs. 2nd and 3rd is not a statistically significant difference in a large sample (over 30). Samples of 16? I don't know, but I'm too lazy to test it. Regardless, when one number equals being within a vote of winning, and another equals being in the jury, I would say the difference is definitely significant. That is a weakness of Cirie's game; she needs to know the end game. A strength of Amanda's game is that she doesn't. You just stay loyal to end regardless whether it is an F3 or F2. Doesn't matter for her game. In fact, an F2 might have actually given Amanda a chance to win China, but she makes the finals regardless.

>

LAST EDITED ON 06-07-09 AT 11:15 PM (EST)

OK, since you want to make this about Amanda, here goes:

"the jury complaint about Amanda is that she is superficial. Yet, 3 guys vote for Amanda, 3 women vote for Parvati, with the "byotch" breaking the tie. Looking at it that way, you can easily say that Parvati wins by being more superficial than the allegedly superficial Amanda."

You have really lost me there. Why are the votes by the men not superficial? Ozzy voted for Amanda because he liked her and James voted against Parvati because he was a "Bitter Betty" after all.

There are 3 main reasons why voters cast their votes. Each are legitimate reasons in my book because the finalists are responsible for putting those players on the jury and have to depend on their judgment, morals, rational, feelings, conscience, etc...

- Jurors base their vote on what they saw during their days on the island with the finalists: That's how Cirie, Natalie, Alexis and, I guess, Jason and Erik voted.

- They base it on Jury answers. That happens when a juror is undecided after witnessing the finalists play for 39 days. That's how Eliza proceeded, a fact you conveniently neglected to mention. As a lawyer, Eliza has a unique jury perspective and she clearly preferred Parvati's answers. Cirie, Natalie and Alexis didn't vote on jury answers because they had seen Parvati playing a better game. It was Amanda's task to change their mind but didn't have strong enough answers.

- They base it on personal feelings. Often, those are the bitter voters. That's how James and Ozzy voted. Eliza even said that Ozzy campaigned hard in Loser Lodge for Amanda despite the producers orders to avoid such discussions.

(Paragraphs are made by pressing the "Enter" key twice)

Amanda's poor jury performance was more evident in China. She had played a stronger strategic game than in Micronesia and still fumbled badly trying to explain it. But, you know what? Amanda's jury performance shouldn't have been a surprise. I was shocked to hear in China's Final 5 episode that Amanda had never talked to Peih Gee before that day when they were left alone in camp. Talk about a bad social game; not even talking to someone for 2 weeks???

"3rd and 4th vs. 2nd and 3rd is not a statistically significant difference in a large sample (over 30). Samples of 16? I don't know..."

Please, Survivor casts are often bloated enough already!

Maybe I should have explained better because you are using cast size as your sample, I am using the number of results as my sample size. You can't do statistics with only 2 results and the "Better Player" is always judged on statistics.
(And, no I am not wishing to see returning players again! )

For one thing, it's easy to see that Cirie faced much tougher roads to the end than Amanda. In her first season, Cirie was on the chopping block in the first 2 episodes and fought her way out of trouble. After the merge, she was key in holding together a tribe that could have easily gone Timbira's way.

Amanda coasted through China on the evidently stronger tribe. Granted, it wasn't an easy task to keep such a diverse tribe together but Amanda didn't play any bigger role in that than others did.

Even in Micronesia, Cirie found herself next on the block after the Ozzy/Joel deal. Cirie used Tracy to quickly kill that scenario and convinced Amanda and Ozzy that Truck was the one that had to go. That's right, Amanda needed to be convinced that Joel had to go. It should have been evident.

Earlier, you had written:
"I find it funny that Parvati and Amanda recruited a powerless Cirie into their alliance, and then Cirie pipes off afterwards how she made all these moves and Amanda didn't."

Cirie wasn't powerless at all. She had a secret alliance with Yau Man and a F5 offer from Jonathan. The Cirie/Yau Man alliance would have been great to see if YM hadn't made a foolish move. That move convinced Cirie to switch sides and go to PARVATI's alliance. (Remember, that's how Cirie, Fairplay, Jonathan and Eliza called it on the show). Without Cirie, the couples alliance was the one without power in a 9 person tribe. Cirie's move was the key to the season.

Amanda found herself in trouble only once in her two seasons and she needed an HII to save herself. Avoiding trouble requires skills for sure but mainly it requires luck, lots of luck. While you may be impressed with the way Amanda played the idol, I say she was again damn lucky to be sent to EI at the right time. A bad move by Natalie more than a great play by Amanda. I'm not sure how well Amanda would do without the numbers because she was never really tested.

"That is a weakness of Cirie's game; she needs to know the end game. A strength of Amanda's game is that she doesn't."

First of all, for me, that is a weakness in Burnett's Survivor. The first thing in playing a game or a competition is knowing the rules. Hiding the rules is more a TV stunt than competitive spirit.

Cirie does have problems in the end game where her likability and challenge deficiencies can hurt her. Still, Cirie was only 1 fire challenge away from facing the Panama Jury and only James' injury cost her China's FTC. That's mostly bad luck rather than failure.

Even making it to the finale, we know Amanda can't deliver the goods, can't finish off her opponents. That's a much bigger weakness in this game.
(And in others also, ask Dinara Safina today about it!)

"You just stay loyal to end regardless whether it is an F3 or F2. Doesn't matter for her game. In fact, an F2 might have actually given Amanda a chance to win China, but she makes the finals regardless."

You mean staying loyal like Jan, Helen, Caryn, Becky, Sundra, Denise and many others? Sorry but Erinn had a great line this season: "You have to make your own moves if you want to win this game." Hopefully more will play with that attitude. Staying loyal may get you a seat at FTC but will not, in itself, earn you votes.

China F2? Imagine Aruba's outrage if Courtney had won!!

LAST EDITED ON 06-08-09 AT 05:45 PM (EST)

Holy crop! Long post. I read it all though. I guess some would say I have issues. Believe me though, I am far from having a lot of free time, though it might seem that way.
Haha... I will keep posting as I always have. You can have your paragraphs.
Courtney doesn't win an F2. I don't care who voted for her at F3. That was a different dynamic.
You are right. I completely dismissed Eliza. Another woman who voted for Parvati. Coincidence that all the women voted for her? I think not. Are women more in tune to superficiality than men? Do they value honest answers more? I guess there is an argument there. I would say no. I would say it was something else. Okay, so maybe Amanda could have won Eliza's vote with a good TC. I can concede that. I still say she doesn't win the votes of Alexis, Natalie, or Cirie, regardless, and probably not the brainless Jason either.
I agree Amanda was worse in China.
My point about Parvati winning by being more superficial than Amanda is if you consider Jason the key vote. Obviously, Parvati had a low opinion of Jason. Obviously, she kept that point of view from Jason. That is what I call being superficial. She successfully made Jason think she liked him when she didn't. That's my simple point.
Lastly, regarding the whole Cirie vs. Amanda issue. You can write for pages about all the things that make Cirie better. I, on the other hand, only have to refer to one fact- Amanda 2 finals, Cirie 0. The scoreboard is the only argument I need.
Cirie's game is always good for an F4 because she is no threat post merge, but she is too likable to make the Finals unless she wins a challenge, which is her Achilles heel. Yeah, if she could win a challenge then she would definitely be a better player than Amanda, but she can't... alas... What a difference being able to win a challenge makes, aye? Haha....

>

"Parvati...successfully made Jason think she liked him when she didn't."

That sounds like what Brian did!!

Amanda ignored Jason like she did with Peih Gee, losing a vote.

Just as Amanda couldn't get the votes from Cirie, Natalie and Alexis because of her weak gameplay, Parvati had no shot at Ozzy, James and Erik's votes because of their feelings. Where's the superficiality?

"The scoreboard is the only argument I need... What a difference being able to win a challenge makes..."

Kim J, Neleh, Lill, Dreamz and Suzie made finales and won the last challenge to get there. Are those the players that you compare to Amanda? Though she's not as good as Cirie, I thought Amanda was better than those 5 but I see, by the scoreboard argument, that they are equals (percentage-wise).

Amanda is simply a better looking Danielle, another one who is on your scoreboard.

If you have time, you could tackle the real issue: Cirie fought to survive, Amanda coasted and then choked.

>"The scoreboard is the only argument
>I need... What a difference
>being able to win a
>challenge makes..."
>
>Kim J, Neleh, Lill, Dreamz and
>Suzie made finales and won
>the last challenge to get
>there. Are those the players
>that you compare to Amanda?

"Scoreboards" are fine for next day box scores or sports encyclopedias, but in a discussion format such as this, one must analyze the means that achieved the end results.

Of all the names you mentioned, Kim J. is the only one I'll give kudos to for defeating Ethan and Lex head-to-head in a true endurance test.

Neleh's "win" was a joke. After Kathy O'Brien was "accidentally on-purpose" distracted, Neleh and Vecepia made a deal so it didn't matter who stepped away first.

Lil was part of the worst F4, worst F3, and worst F2 producing the worst winner in Survivor history. So let's just flush that end game down the toilet.

Although Yau Man was the challenge stud in Fiji, Dre had the only realistic shot a winning that particular Final IC. Much like Exile Island when Terry was beating the snot out of castaways half his age only to lose in the Final IC because he had to stand on a lillypad the same size as Danielle. A flaw Survivor corrected the following season when the Final IC on Cook Islands was designed so each platform was calibrated fairly to the foot size of each contestant.

I won't even elaborate on Suzie other than the fact her Final IC bordered on the ridiculous to disgraceful.

If we are going to analyze Final ICs then bring back the REAL endurance tests that were staples during the much greater seasons. Now we have silly balancing acts like in Skankivor: Micronesia and China. Wasn't China something stupid like balancing plates on a stick? I hadn't seen an act like that since I was 10 when our family went into NYC because the circus was in town.

And a House of Cards in Gabon??? Even last season I had to shake my head at the sight of that arcade game they probably shipped in from a Chuck E Cheese.

Whatever happen to the REAL Final ICs where players had to survive and endure a test of will and the winner was the player who wanted it the most?

Hey, wait a minute...did I say "survive" in a game called Survivor?

WOW...What a Hellava Concept!!!

Kim J. is the only one I'll give kudos to for defeating Ethan and Lex head-to-head in a true endurance test.

Whaaaa??? You give kudos to Kim? Ethan stepped off the post because the cameraman at his feet puked. That would put a lot of people off their game. And then Lex was weak with a flu type sickness. I wouldn't say Kim won anything ... Ethan and Lex lost, and there is a difference.

Nope ... sorry ... no kudos to Kim from me.

Moreover JP asked the jury at the reunion who would have voted for Kim if she had chosen Lex to go to the F2. Kim would have lost that vote too. Kim wouldn't have even been F3 if it wasn't for a screw-up in a question that she would have gotten wrong and prevented her from winning that IC.

>Amanda coasted and then choked.

Amanda coasted? HMMM, dunno about that...maybe I'll give you half a point on that one.

I can sort of see your rationale during the first half of both her seasons. In China she coasted behind Todd's strategic play and in Skankivor: Micronesia she coasted as Ozzy's sleepmate.

But in the second half of both seasons she didn't coast. Quite the contrary. Finding the HII was very admirable. And she more than steps up in the final challenges down the stretch of both seasons. Winning the challenges she did, even though it was against subpar competition, is not "coasting" in my book.

Honestly, it was nice to come back here and see some new comments. But seriously, michel, I don't know where your posts are coming from.
My "scoreboard" between Amanda and Cirie is 2-0. That's it. I'm not sure where the reference to all the other people who managed to win one IC comes from, unless it is to point out that all of them managed something Cirie didn't in two tries. It certainly isn't to compare with Amanda, who won what? 3 or 4 challenges over 2 seasons?
And that is the second time that you referred to Ozzy and James votes as being superficial. Whuh? So, voting for someone that you honestly like, or have feelings for, is superficial? I don't get it. Actually, that is the opposite of being superficial. But it doesn't matter anyway. Not by your rules. You've already established that any voter has the complete right to vote however they want for whatever reason; so, that seems to render meaningless any reference to the same.
Lastly, "Cirie fought to survive, Amanda coasted and then choked." We just disagree on this, and that is completely fine. If fighting to survive means primarily sitting on your ##### and repeating "anyone but me" over and over again, then Cirie is all over that. I guess building a strong alliance, watching it destroyed, and then finding the idol and winning challenges is "coasting."
And Amanda is a better looking version of Danielle? Not sure about that either. Amanda is a pageant winner and everything, but Danielle is pretty hot.

>

LAST EDITED ON 06-12-09 AT 06:47 PM (EST)

For, me, challenges are mostly entertainment. You should only win individual immunity when it's necessary.

Amanda winning a challenge to get to the finals means nothing since she didn't use her opportunity any more than the other losers I mentioned. It's like scoring a goal in a losing situation. Worthless.
(Don't waste time telling me that 2nd place is worth more than 3rd. Players play to win the million, not $15000)

With the headache that winning F4 in China caused her, maybe Amanda would have been better served by letting Denise win!

Cirie didn't win either but she was in much better position with the jury in both her seasons.

Because of that, their final rank (your scoreboard) means nothing to me in comparing them.

>...Ozzy and James votes as being
>superficial...I don't get it.

Although a legitimate way to vote, it's superficial because it ignores the strategy of the game.

>If fighting to survive means primarily
>sitting on your ##### and
>repeating "anyone but me" over
>and over again, then Cirie
>is all over that.

There's the problem: You didn't see what Cirie did. She's the complete opposite of the "anyone but me" strategy because she organized the main votes of both her seasons. She chose the targets. She chose her alliances.

For example: Do you know why it was Melinda and not Cirie? After Aras' comment, Cirie went to Danielle and offered an alliance saying that Danielle couldn't rely on Shane.

When Bruce joined Casaya, Cirie and Danielle added him to their alliance. That's why it had to be Bobdawg instead of Bruce. Cirie was the one that told Danielle they had the votes to get it done despite Aras, Shane and Bob's votes.

When Casaya feared that Terry would hand out his idol, it was Cirie that kept them together by understanding Terry's need for safety.

Later, I'm sure you remember her role in booting Courtney and Shane. How many people have you seen carrying out a 3-2-1 voting strategy?

And, as far as sitting on her butt, remember what Shane and Aras told Danielle: "Cirie works her butt off in camp."

That's right, I forgot to mention that Cirie also had an alliance with Aras and Shane. From the merge to the F4, the player holding the power in Casaya was Cirie.

>I guess building a strong alliance,
>watching it destroyed, and then
>finding the idol and winning
>challenges is "coasting."

1- Amanda built a showmance with Ozzy.
2- Watching it destroyed under her eyes showed a lack of game awareness, hardly a compliment.
3- Finding the idol was luck, only luck.

Amanda said her strategy was to let others decide => Coasting.

>And Amanda is a better looking
>version of Danielle? Not sure
>about that either.

Come on! Cuter face, nicer smile and hers are real.

WOW, Ditto Iltarion's sentiments. Haven't read anything that long since the Sequel to Roots. I won't respond to all, but a few cannot go without some appropriate assessment.

Let's begin with your last comment first..."outrage" would be an understatement at the prospect of a China F2 and Courtney win. Although I wouldn't assume a Courtney win, I was able to live through the Pearl Island debacle and disgrace, so life would have went on after China too.

I agree with you on Amanda missing the boat with Eliza at FTC, although even a Todd-like performance would not have given her Jason, Alexis, Natalie, and Cirie's votes; so the best Amanda could have hoped for in Skankivor: Micronesia is a 4-4 tie.

I hear what you are saying about needing to "earn" Jury votes, but in the same paragraph you state that more contestants should play with Erinn's attitude??? How so? She gets creamed regardless who she is sitting next to in the Finals. Erinn typlified the perfect goat and the only votes she "earns" are those casting a sour grapes vote, i.e. Taj, or those with an axe to grind against the other fianlist(s).

We'll never come close to agreeing on Cirie and your prior post is no exception. To say being a "fire challenge" away from a chance to make the Finals is "bad luck" as opposed to failure is totally nuts. This is Survivor we're talking about...not being able to perform in a fire challenge is a Failure with a capital "F!" But then again, I have little chance convincing those who want the show renamed to "Social Butterfly."

And she "fought" her way out of trouble early in the Exile Island season? Hahahahahaha!
Casting two pathetically inept players like Cirie and Melinda on a "tribe" of four just screams of ADS. Of course these two weaklings were going to target the most physically fit female player in Tina. And what's Ruth Marie to do? Anything other than a Tina boot creates a tie which puts Ruth Marie in a 50/50 chance of drawing the purple rock and ending her game in that manner at the first TC of the season. No way that's happening. Once again, vintage Cirie...the beneficiary of a favorable circumstance. And when weak and oppressed castaways like Cirie can get past the early boots, they usually have the inside track to an end game for obvious reason.

I will admit her performance was better in Skankivor: Micronesia, but several players can be successful at making the most of their second opportunities. Yet, Cirie being the swing vote in a 9-person tribe was hardly a "Cirie move." That circumstance was dictated by Fairplay quitting only three days into the game which Cirie had nothing to do with creating that favorable situation.

It was similiar to Suzie in Gabon being thrusted into circumstances she didn't create or control and being able to have her vote "bought" by the highest bidder (or biggest liar.)

LAST EDITED ON 06-09-09 AT 09:05 PM (EST)

Aruba, before critizing my long past, did you realize the length of your 3 consecutive posts?

About Amanda's "second half" prowess, you're cutting very unequal halves. Amanda did very little in China before the 9th episode. Even then, Todd had sold her the idea to vote out James at F9. In Micronesia, Amanda did nothing before F6.

Second: You were the one that wrote that being given a shovel and a road map to the HII was less than admirable. Decide; which is it? Finding that idol was easy. I'd even give more credit to Parvati for distracting the tribe. I think she said: "Amanda, you stink. You need to go wash up." I know it was something hilarious.

About Amanda winning challenges down the stretch, I'll ask you to decide which is it? If China and Micronesia's final ICs were so laughable how can Amanda winning them be admirable? I really like consistency.

No matter the method, you can't deny that Cirie was on the block in episode #1 and again in episode #2. Then, before the merge, she managed to climb ahead of BobDawg and Bruce. That's fighting. In the fire challenge, she was right there with Danielle, so it came down to luck and the way the wind blew.

It wasn't Erinn's jury potential I was admiring but her willingness to change the game.

Short enough for ya? 3 posts answered in one!

I'll be quicker.

Yes, providing a shovel was a joke, but when did I ever criticize her for a "roadmap?" If anything I remember complimenting her on "digging a trench long enough to lay the Alaskan Pipeline" while on EI to search for clues.

The challenges I was referring to were ALL the challenges she won...not JUST the Final ICs. I said finding the HII was "admirable," not winning all her challenges. I said winning challenges does not constitute "coasting."

You can't say "no matter the method" when the "method" prevented any chance of offsetting the weaklings Cirie/Melinda's ADS target on Tina. So it was the wind that caused inept Cirie to lose a fire challenge?????

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! GOOD GRIEF!!!

Yep, that's what I'm saying: Once you have a good flame going, it's pretty much up to the fire and the wind to do their thing. Becky and Sundra were inept at fire building, not Cirie who had a flame going before Danielle.

"HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! GOOD GRIEF!!!

Don't you just hate it when you want to sneaze and it won't come.

Nice tennis reference.

Seriously though, I agree that Cirie is a much better player than Amanda. Amanda did nothing in Micronesia until Final 6 except for getting lost in Ozzy's eyes. Cirie controlled both of her seasons from the moment Probst said go.

Hahaha... you would think someone "controlling their season" could make the FInals. I guess not.
The great thing is we don't even have to debate this with no frame of reference. Amanda and Cirie both played a season together. They both played their different strategies. And Amanda went further. Pretty simple, really. I love how Amanda gets no credit over Cirie for making the Finals twice. Haha... now I know some real weak players have made the Finals, but TWICE? Once is a fluke, twice proves something. And you have to make the Final before you can WIN at a Final. So, Cirie was in better shape with the jury on both her seasons? Hahaha... That does a lot of good for someone who can't make a Final!!!

>

I think someone can control a season without getting to the finals. Happens in sports all the time when a favourite topples in the playoffs (the Boston Bruins and San Jose Sharks had that fate this year). On Survivor, some would say that Terry controled his season, and but for a lily pad challenge likely would have won.

That said, I am more surprised that this thread just keep crawling along with this discussion. The least you guys could do is post more pictures of Amanda and Parvati to make it more interesting.