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Original Message
"OKC twister"
Posted by cahaya on 05-20-13 at 08:40 PM
It's on every news site, the death and injury toll still coming in and it's scary.

There in OKC, I have an uncle, my mom's brother, and my niece, my wife's brother's daughter from Malaysia living and working there for an oil company seconded from Petronas. I scrambled our Malaysian family awake in the wee hours of their morning this afternoon to alert them to check on our niece. She is okay, with her working downtown just a few miles from where the two-mile wide EF4 twister struck in the southern suburb of Moore. My uncle lives on the north side and he too was spared from the devastation.

My thoughts and inner prayers go out to everyone who was affected, families and school children still in class, and I give my thanks that at least my family members who live there are safe.

Table of contents
Messages in this discussion
"RE: OKC twister"
Posted by Estee on 05-20-13 at 08:53 PM
The storm itself seems to be getting bigger every the news is updated. The last I heard before your post, it was up to a mile wide. Now it's two. It almost makes me afraid to check again.

We're in that horrible middle stage: waiting for help to move in and people to come out.

Death toll currently stands at thirty-seven: seven of those are kids who were at school.

"RE: OKC twister"
Posted by dabo on 05-20-13 at 09:21 PM
LAST EDITED ON 05-20-13 AT 09:21 PM (EST)

Just terrible news of devastation. Death toll now at 51, but with all the destruction and confusion I expect things will continue to be worse and worse. And night is coming on soon for Oklahoma.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/05/20/18375741-at-least-51-killed-as-tornado-tears-through-oklahoma-leaving-miles-of-debris?lite>;1=43001

Crews frantically searched the wreckage and were only beginning to get a sense of the destruction. Hospitals reported several dozen injured.

“The whole city looks like a debris field,” said Mayor Glenn Lewis of the city of Moore, which appeared to be hardest hit.

... It was not clear how many children were trapped. Students in fourth, fifth and sixth grade were evacuated to a church, but students in lower grades had sheltered in place, ...

The Weather Channel said the twister was a mile wide at its base, and a reporter for KFOR said it kicked up a cloud of debris perhaps two miles wide ...

Other people simply walked around dazed, marveling that nothing was left of their houses — and in many cases that they themselves were alive. Fires broke out in some places.

“I lost everything,” one man said as he walked through the ruins of a horse farm. “We might have one horse left out of all of them.” ...

An Oklahoma emergency management spokesman said a hospital was being evacuated after sustaining severe damage, and 16 ambulances were being sent to move patients.

"24 kids unaccounted for"
Posted by Snidget on 05-20-13 at 10:29 PM
A friend of mine works at the VA hospital in Tuscaloosa when the tornado went threw and they had to stay up and running even with the damage (I think they were one of the less damaged hospitals). Took several days to get water back to the building and it's hard to do patient care and all that with nothing but hand sanitizer.
"RE: OKC twister"
Posted by kingfish on 05-20-13 at 09:37 PM
Hopefully Tummy will be checking in soon.
"RE: OKC twister"
Posted by Snidget on 05-20-13 at 09:50 PM
She checked in on Facebook. She wasn't in the area that got hit.
"CBS pulled a finale"
Posted by Snidget on 05-20-13 at 10:44 PM
http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/tv/showtracker/la-et-st-mike-molly-season-finale-oklahoma-tornado-20130520,0,557619.story

Note to producers...do not make tornado themed shows to air during tornado season. It is just asking for trouble.

"RE: CBS pulled a finale"
Posted by dabo on 05-20-13 at 11:08 PM
Every rare so often, TV execs are sensitive to breaking news.

No comment on the 'Mike and Molly' episode which remains unseen, and it was probably a cliffhanger anyway. Which is probably worse, under the circumstances.

The 'Haven' episode that was delayed by a month or so because of Sandy Hook in December 2012, when it finally aired it bore almost no relation to the real-life tragedy except that it took place in a high school. Not with students but rather alumni. Not with a crazed shooter but.. well, hard to explain. And it wasn't a season cliffhanger, season finale.

But it is a supernatural hoodoo sci-fy show so better safe than sorry.

"RE: OKC twister"
Posted by Round Robin on 05-20-13 at 11:58 PM
EF4 my foot. As big as some of that debris was and as much of a mess as that storm made, it had to be an EF5. Ouch.
"RE: OKC twister"
Posted by Snidget on 05-21-13 at 06:55 AM
They'll get the final analysis once they can get out and study the wreckage.

So far the analysis is if it stays an F4 the amount of damage was because it was wider than some of the F5 that have gone through. Also was one single wide tornado where some of the F5 have been part of a cluster of smaller ones and not all of them were that strong.

"RE: OKC twister"
Posted by kingfish on 05-21-13 at 07:50 AM
LAST EDITED ON 05-21-13 AT 09:25 AM (EST)


A 2 mile wide F4 is much worse than your run of the mill F5. Normal tornadoes are no where near as big as that monster.

(thanks Snidg, I forgot about FB. We have some other Okies too).

ETA: I have to agree, after looking at the pictures of the totally leveled neighborhoods, that was an F5 during at least part of its run. That's what an F5 does.

"RE: OKC twister"
Posted by cahaya on 05-21-13 at 07:54 AM
LAST EDITED ON 05-21-13 AT 07:58 AM (EST)

Apparently, too, the tornado was slow moving and on the ground for 40 minutes according to one report, so while it may have been an EF4, it also continuously churned up everything in its path.

(eta) CNN: This time, the two-mile-wide twister stayed on the ground for a full 40 minutes, carving a 22-mile path where thousands of residents live.

"RE: OKC twister"
Posted by Snidget on 05-21-13 at 08:29 AM
You see that with hurricanes. A slow moving lower intensity storm can over time do as much wind damage as a higher intensity moving at normal speeds.

It isn't just top wind speed but how long you are at a speed that can cause damage.

Sometimes if they get large enough they can't get to the highest possible speed, even if they end up doing as much damage.

"RE: OKC twister"
Posted by cahaya on 05-22-13 at 11:21 PM
EF4 my foot.

The National Weather Service just kicked this tornado up from an EF4 to EF5, at least for part of the 40 minute duration it was on the ground, based on damage estimates. That, combined with its very wide 1-2 mile swath and slow moment, meant massive destruction. In retrospect, it's rather amazing not more people were hurt or lost their lives with the population density where it struck. It is still very tragic, especially for children in the schools along the tornado's path.

"RE: OKC twister"
Posted by bullzeye on 05-21-13 at 08:55 AM
They are saying it may have been the most powerful tornado to have ever touched down in the US.

Devastating - my thoughts to all impacted.

"RE: OKC twister"
Posted by kidflash212 on 05-21-13 at 08:59 AM
A scary thing to see even on video - can't imagine the terror of the poor people who had to live through it. Hope to find a way to help.
"RE: OKC twister"
Posted by kingfish on 05-21-13 at 09:04 AM
I don't understand how people in that part of the country do not all have a basements or root cellars, or whatever shelters. There at least you stand some chance.
"RE: OKC twister"
Posted by kidflash212 on 05-21-13 at 09:09 AM
Just something I read and not sure how true it is but the ground in these areas is very difficult to dig a basement into.
"RE: OKC twister"
Posted by Snidget on 05-21-13 at 09:24 AM
One of the interviews said it wasn't impossible as some of the reports made it out to be.

A lot of it does come down to costs and where the frost line is. Up north a lot of houses have basements because you have to dig down that deep just to put the footings in to get them down below the frozen ground so you might as well just do a basement while you are down there. More southern climes the footings don't have to be all that deep so a lot of times they just do a crawl space as the added expense is more of a luxury rather than a necessity.

"RE: OKC twister"
Posted by kingfish on 05-21-13 at 10:36 AM
LAST EDITED ON 05-21-13 AT 11:05 AM (EST)

Frost line? In Oklahoma?

I think the problems people encounter with digging a basement have more to do with the water table level and soil types. Some soils (especially clays) expand and contract during wet/dry seasons, and tend to crack an ill designed slab or basement wall.

But in almost all areas is is possible nowadays to design a basement that will be sound.

"RE: OKC twister"
Posted by Snidget on 05-21-13 at 11:11 AM
Yep, just usually in the areas where you don't need to dig down for the footings it becomes how much cost, time and effort do you want to put into the house.

When I've been up north you have to dig out a basement just to put the footings in, you might as well just put in the basement when the hole is there. In the south they can put the footings in with what is basically a giant drill bit. So why add the extra cost on.

"RE: OKC twister"
Posted by foonermints on 05-21-13 at 12:00 PM
In the Sierras I had to pour footings 36" deep as a minimum. Where I had my cabin there was a lot of glacial effluvium (granite). On one corner of the house there was a gigantic buried slab, probably bigger than Oaxaca. Instead of calling in a shooter (dynamite guy) I just drilled into it and linked it with rebar into the poured concrete of the foundation.

I suppose my point is that digging isn't always economically feasable. Not always practical for folks to have a basement or root cellar. Digging is a b!tch anyway.

Glad the death toll wasn't as dreadful as reported.
I'd really miss The Abbot of Vermont.

Imperatorius Dux!

"RE: OKC twister"
Posted by kingfish on 05-21-13 at 12:20 PM
Dynamiting is a lot more fun than digging.

If you've ever had to cower in your bathtub with tornadoes bearing down on you, your sense of what’s economically feasible gets a big rethink.

And if I lived in tornado alley, I'd be glad that there was hunk of granite for me to dig a hole into.

I built my house a few years ago, before the Alabama tornados of 2011. And I decided not have a cellar then because of the expense. Now I regret that decision.

Screw the expense, screw the water table, and screw the frost line, I want a hole under my house to jump into!

And, BTW, let me play with the dynamite.

"RE: OKC twister"
Posted by foonermints on 05-21-13 at 12:50 PM
No tornadoes in the mountains. Well, maybe tournados. Tournados Rossini? Yes!
Generally served in someone's basement during a tornado, just to take the edge off, along with a vintage red.

How come you are writing on the computer about your regrets and not out underneath your house with a shovel?

I'd worry about neighbor's complaints with the dynamite.
Or Homeland Security.
Or cracks in your stucco.

Imperatorius Dux!
What I really needed was a Vee shaped concrete wall pointed at a couloir on Mt. Alice. An avalanche almost took out the old rat-hole a few years back. Not that I care much. *sold* *grin*

"RE: OKC twister"
Posted by dabo on 05-21-13 at 01:14 PM
We got lucky here several years ago. Live in a ranchstyle house, the tornado that would have hit us had we been in a multi-level instead went over the house. And then demolished our two best shadetrees in the backyard.

Tip for calming down a dog during a bad storm: brandy-soaked dog biscuits.

"RE: OKC twister"
Posted by foonermints on 05-21-13 at 01:19 PM
reminder to self: during storm run to dabo's and steal all dog biscuits
"RE: OKC twister"
Posted by kingfish on 05-21-13 at 02:05 PM
Brandy soaked dog biscuits!

Note to self: Do not reveal ‘note to self’ to Fooner.

Ducks Unlimited!

"RE: OKC twister"
Posted by foonermints on 05-21-13 at 02:26 PM
I sure hope dabo buys the good stuff. Hey, a companion animal is worth at least the Napoleon. True?

Imperatorius Dux!
Them dux by the park are mighty Imperatorious today. Nasty! Who do they think they are, the Queen of England?

"RE: OKC twister"
Posted by cahaya on 05-21-13 at 10:32 PM
A lot of it does come down to costs...

Indeed. Here is an interesting article about the logistics and costs of setting up tornado-proof shelters.

In a 2006 study Simmons co-authored with Daniel Sutter of the University of Texas-Pan American, Simmons found that a program for building safe rooms in permanent dwellings would cost $52 million for every life saved.

"RE: OKC twister"
Posted by foonermints on 05-21-13 at 10:54 PM
»Private safe rooms can be built—Simmons, who lives in tornado country north of Dallas, just put one in his own house for $4,000«

4k? I'd build one of those for my cat.

I love that cat.

eta: I'm hiding under the floorboards with that cat.

"RE: OKC twister"
Posted by cahaya on 05-22-13 at 09:24 PM
For maximum protection, you can get yourself a bank vault.

No kidding, 22 people hid inside there with FDIC insured cash.


"RE: OKC twister"
Posted by foonermints on 05-22-13 at 10:07 PM
I'd grab a souvenier myself. Just for nostalgic value, of course.
"RE: OKC twister"
Posted by jbug on 05-24-13 at 10:53 AM
There are few basements in our neck of the south - water level & all.
But, DH & I put in a storm shelter just a few years after moving home - after the tornado that hit Union University in Jackson, TN.
I didn't like the idea of going down steps into a hole (& considering how hard it might be for my mother to go down & back up) so we had one put into a bank (that's a small rise on land - not where money is kept) just east of the house. Just open the door & walk right in.
It's big enough for 20 people if everyone stands up; & if you don't know each other well, you will after spending some time there.
But seriously, we have waited out only 1 storm in it; my aunt & uncle & 3 cousins from next door, my mom, & another aunt, and of course Butch & Lucky. It was worth the $3000 for the peace of mind.


"RE: OKC twister"
Posted by Tummy on 05-22-13 at 11:46 AM
Hi guys. Just checking in.

The closest it got to us was 2 1/2 hours away. We've had wicked, mean storms lately. Here's hoping the season ends quietly.

"Hooray!"
Posted by foonermints on 05-22-13 at 10:08 PM
The Abbot of Vermont!
"Geez..."
Posted by cahaya on 05-31-13 at 08:53 PM
Not again!

One more alert to the folks in Malaysia about my niece and to my folks about my uncle there.

"TWC chase vehicle got a bit too close."
Posted by Snidget on 05-31-13 at 09:23 PM
LAST EDITED ON 05-31-13 AT 10:48 PM (EST)

http://www.weather.com/news/tornado-central/tornado-hunt-team-takes-direct-hit-tornado-20130531

ETA: Anderson Cooper was talking to one of the storm chasers with the SUV's turned into tanks...the hood got ripped off one of them.

Yikes.

"3 Storm Chasers Killed"
Posted by dabo on 06-02-13 at 02:59 PM
LAST EDITED ON 06-02-13 AT 03:29 PM (EST)

Tim Samaras, Paul Samaras and Carl Young, who worked on the TV (Discovery Channel) show "Storm Chasers," were killed this week during a tornado outbreak in Oklahoma.

http://video.msnbc.msn.com/weekends-with-alex-witt/52075071#52075071

"RE: 3 Storm Chasers Killed"
Posted by Snidget on 06-02-13 at 03:12 PM
Just came here to post about that.

Here is a link with the tribute the storm chasers did on Jeff Master's blog.

http://www.wunderground.com/blog/JeffMasters/comment.html?entrynum=2423

The Dominator (another crew on that show) had it's hood blown off and it was specially armored.

Sounds like this storm just wandered off in an unusual direction so most of what the storm chasers do to keep safe in these conditions just wasn't enough, and a vehicle is not the safest place to ride out the storm.

"RE: 3 Storm Chasers Killed"
Posted by cahaya on 06-02-13 at 04:43 PM
The rain was so heavy with the storm, 7" worth in OKC, that it wasn't clear just where the tornadoes were from inside a vehicle. A lot of people got trapped on the highways, either coming in for the commute or trying to flee the tornado tracks going into the metro area. With the incessant heavy rain hitting the windshields, it's hard to tell what is ahead of you or coming at you.
"RE: 3 Storm Chasers Killed"
Posted by Snidget on 06-02-13 at 06:04 PM
When at least three different storm chasers with all the technology they have and experience enough to make them careful you know it was one freaky storm.
"RE: 3 Storm Chasers Killed"
Posted by dabo on 06-02-13 at 07:04 PM
From the link you gave above:

Cars and tornadoes can prove a dangerous mix even for the world's most experienced storm chasers. Driving at high speeds though heavy rain, large hail, and high winds is hazardous. If one is lucky enough to chase down a tornado, even the most experienced chasers can find themselves in a serious life-threatening situation when unexpected events occur.

The exact circumstances of the deaths of Tim Samaras and his team are not clear, but the El Reno tornado was an extremely dangerous one to chase. It's particularly dangerous when a tornado is wrapped in rain, making it hard to see, or if a chaser is operating in a heavily populated area, where roads may suddenly become congested.

El Reno tornado was wrapped in rain and difficult to see as it headed west towards Oklahoma City, and suddenly made a jog to the southeast as a Weather Channel team led by Mike Bettes was attempting to get in front of the storm, and the tornado lifted their vehicle off the ground, rolled it multiple times, and hurled it 200 yards into a nearby field.

Austin Anderson was driving the Tornado Hunt vehicle, and suffered several broken bones and was hospitalized. Although Austin will have to undergo surgery in the next few days, doctors say he is expected to make a full recovery.

StormChasingVideo.com storm chaser Brandon Sullivan and his chase partner Brett Wright got caught in the tornado northwest of Union City, OK and slammed with debris as the tornado hit a barn that exploded in front of them.

Meteorologist Emily Sutton and storm chaser Kevin Josefy of local Oklahoma City TV station KFOR also had a very close call with the El Reno tornado Friday afternoon. They got too close to the tornado, and were forced to floor the car in reverse to escape flying debris. With branches of trees crashing around them, Sutton began feeling debris hitting her back, and realized that the rear windshield of the car must have gotten destroyed. Both were uninjured.

Reed Timmer's armor-plated "Dominator" chase vehicle had its hood torn off by the tornado.

Wunderground member Levi32 was out storm chasing during the El Reno Tornado, and got stuck in traffic on Highway 4 and couldn't move. "We looked up above the car and saw the wall cloud over top of us, with very quick rotation and rising scud indicating the updraft. We were definitely too close."

"RE: 3 Storm Chasers Killed"
Posted by dabo on 06-03-13 at 11:14 PM
http://www.realitytvworld.com/news/former-storm-chasers-stars-tim-samaras-and-carl-young-killed-chasing-oklahoma-tornadoes-14895.php

Tim, 54, was discovered inside his car near Interstate 40 still wearing his seatbelt, while Paul, 24, and their colleague Carl, 45, had been pulled from a car by the severe winds and carried a quarter mile in opposite directions, according to NBC News.

I would just like to take this opportunity to note that there are three classes of storm chasers.

Class #1: Scientific researchers hoping to gain valuable information in dangerous situations to better understand and predict these extreme weather situations, in service to the public good. Expert scientific researchers. Tim and his team were of this class. As, I believe, were all involved in Storm Chasers.

Class #2: Newscasters/broadcasters (including scientists and meteorologists) whose purpose is to provide as accurate as possible immediate information to the public at large about dangerous situations. Immediate public service providers. Good for them.

Class #3: Amatuer thrill-seakers hoping to capture some awesome video of no scientific or public service value but which they can profit from by selling drama to news services. News services should stop providing these morons with after the fact income.

"4 Storm Chasers Killed"
Posted by dabo on 06-04-13 at 08:30 PM
http://newsok.com/article/3841315/

From his pickup, amateur storm chaser Richard Charles Henderson took a cellphone photo of the first tornado Friday and excitedly sent it to a friend.

Minutes later, that tornado would kill him.

Slay said the picture came in at 6:05 p.m. About 10 minutes later, Slay heard a loud popping noise over the phone.

Henderson cursed, and then asked Slay if he had heard the sound.

“I said, ‘Yeah, I heard it. What was it?' And he said, ‘It's debris hitting my pickup.' I said, ‘You better get your ##### out of there.' Then the phone went dead.

Henderson, of Hinton, was one of at least 18 people who died because of Friday's tornadoes and storms. His body was found near El Reno.

My condolences to his family and friends.

"RE: 4 Storm Chasers Killed"
Posted by cahaya on 06-04-13 at 08:48 PM
Wow. Although the first storm that devastated Moore on the south side caught the most attention with the EF4/5 twister that went through schools and shopping centers, this second twister had a devastating toll on the skilled researchers who are out there to save lives.

I share your condolences to his family and friends, and the community of scientists who seek to save lives of everyone else.