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Thread Number: 37709
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Original Message
"Cheating"
Posted by samboohoo on 08-22-12 at 04:26 PM
I don't know that we've really discussed this here in OT. If so, it's been a while.

It's a topic being discussed in a Women's Forum I visit. And while all the OT ladies are certainly welcome to chime in, I'd be interested in hearing a few male voices here.

1. What would you do if you found out your partner/spouse had cheated on you?

2. Does it matter if it were a long-term deal or just a one-night fling?

3. Does your opinion change if alcohol/drunkeness was a contributing factor?

4. What if it weren't the first time?

5. Any other thoughts/questions/comments?


Samboobree, brought to life by Arkie


Table of contents
Messages in this discussion
"RE: Cheating"
Posted by mrc on 08-22-12 at 04:53 PM
LAST EDITED ON 08-22-12 AT 04:54 PM (EST)

1. What would you do if you found out your partner/spouse had cheated on you? I would confront her and ask for an explanation.

2. Does it matter if it were a long-term deal or just a one-night fling? No.

3. Does your opinion change if alcohol/drunkeness was a contributing factor? No.

4. What if it weren't the first time? That's a stickier situation. Counseling would be a requirement in any case, but I would seriously consider separation if cheating happened more than once.

5. Any other thoughts/questions/comments? People make mistakes. If they show true remorse and don't make that choice again, a relationship can survive. Serial infidelity requires a serious, definitive, cease-and-desist demand.

"Hide it Behind a Tree!"
Posted by foonermints on 08-22-12 at 09:23 PM
The sisterhood is wrong strong... .

(font size=teenie-weenie) Whoopsie

"RE: Cheating"
Posted by Dakota on 08-23-12 at 02:11 AM
1. Depends, although this is a downward spiral that's tough to stop. Trust, lust, love, respect -- so much goes out the window and is tough to replace.
2. Yes.
3. Yes.
4. Well, this is where the attorneys make their money, isn't it?
5. I too am interested in the male perspective.


Agman's Spring Fling '12.3

"RE: Cheating"
Posted by kidflash212 on 08-23-12 at 08:28 AM
1. What would you do if you found out your partner/spouse had cheated on you?
Be hurt angry and betrayed. Most likely move out.

2. Does it matter if it were a long-term deal or just a one-night fling?
Complicated, initially there would be no difference in the hurt and anger but over time I would be more likely to forgive a one night stand. Don't think I could so easily forgive a long term affair.

3. Does your opinion change if alcohol/drunkeness was a contributing factor?
Somewhat, I have done some stupid things when drunk or high

4. What if it weren't the first time?
It's over. It would be clear that a relationship is not what they want or capable of having.


Capn2patch put me in motion!

"RE: Cheating"
Posted by byoffer on 08-23-12 at 10:07 AM
*sigh*

Been there, done that. We'll call that the first marriage.

What's missing, for me, from your questions/comments is any reference to kids. We had two who were quite young, and that impacted my actions greatly. Forgive might be too strong, but I was willing to try to work through that for the sake of saving the family unit, because I had a really hard time imagining a split family.

Obviously things did not work out keeping that marriage together, though I think we were able to partner to raise the kids very well. I am very happily remarried, with another child, so from that perspective things turned out okay.


One other comment is about geography. In Canada the family laws do not give any sort of advantage to the "wronged party" in such a situation with respect to dollars or custody of kids. Sounds like that is different from the US.


Now that I have shared too much information, I will go back to wishing this was just a shallow Two-for-Twosday thresd!

"RE: Cheating"
Posted by Dakota on 08-23-12 at 10:51 AM
>One other comment is about geography.
> In Canada the family
>laws do not give any
>sort of advantage to the
>"wronged party" in such a
>situation with respect to dollars
>or custody of kids.
>Sounds like that is different
>from the US.
>

Different states have different ideas and laws. For example, if you're wealthy and fiance isn't, stay out of California. Well, some would say that's good advice under any circumstances.



Agman's Spring Fling '12.3

"RE: Cheating"
Posted by newsomewayne on 08-23-12 at 10:54 AM
That's good advice under any circumstances.
"RE: Cheating"
Posted by foonermints on 08-23-12 at 09:48 PM
Too late for me. *sob*
"RE: Cheating"
Posted by Scarlett O Hara on 08-23-12 at 10:27 AM
LAST EDITED ON 08-23-12 AT 10:28 AM (EST)

Cheating:

1. What would you do if you found out your partner/spouse had cheated on you? Leave him.

2. Does it matter if it were a long-term deal or just a one-night fling? No.

3. Does your opinion change if alcohol/drunkeness was a contributing factor? No.

4. What if it weren't the first time? O - U - T - he's out!

5. Any other thoughts/questions/comments? I don't know if it is my age or what, but suddenly it seems as if half the peeps I know are splitting up! Seriously, I know of 5 couples who have recently split and, in all cases, cheating was involved! Also, in all cases, the wife was blind-sided. Part of the problem I think, stems from the bad economy. The husband was involved with the construction or some other related industry that went south and either lost his employment or his employment slowed down tremendously. He's left at home with terrible stress over not being able to support the family and nothing to do but get into trouble. In more than one case, the wife goes back to work and supports the family, and the husband goes on line looking to entertain himself. Next thing you know he's hooking up with some chic he meets online. In one case, the husband has been out of work for nearly 6 years. Three years ago, he gives his wife crab lice and she didn't kick him out then. This year, he comes home yellow with Hepatitus B. Seriously, I advised my friend to kick him to the curb as next time he's sure to bring home HIV!

Anyway, what has happened to fidelity in marriage? Are men meant to be monogamous? And I don't mean to target men, because we all know some ladies with insatiable appetites as well. Is the divorce rate really 50/50?

"RE: Cheating"
Posted by agman on 08-24-12 at 12:39 PM
LAST EDITED ON 08-24-12 AT 12:40 PM (EST)

I don't mean to
>target men, because we all
>know some ladies with insatiable
>appetites as well. Is
>the divorce rate really 50/50?


Yep! I know at least one (DW) lady with an insatiable appetite and has caused me a lot of pain and sorrow the last month or so.


"RE: Cheating"
Posted by byoffer on 08-24-12 at 01:16 PM
I'm not sure how to read your post, agman.

- you are commenting, possibly humourously, about your wife's eating appetite
- you are commenting, possibly humourously, about your wife's sexual appetite
- you are commenting, possibly humourously, by adding the pain reference, about your wife having read that 50 Shades of Grey book.
- you are being serious and your wife has strayed

*hugs* if it is the latter. I am hoping your intentions were one of the humourous options.

"RE: Cheating"
Posted by agman on 08-24-12 at 01:43 PM

Unfortunately, it's the latter!
"RE: Cheating"
Posted by newsomewayne on 08-24-12 at 01:52 PM
*bro hug*

Sorry, Ag-dude.

Perhaps you should spend some time making me a new Broncos - Manning siggie.

You know, just to keep your mind off things.


surfkitten siggie shop 2007

"RE: Cheating"
Posted by agman on 08-24-12 at 09:12 PM
Newsome, I think that did work. It did get my mind off it for awhile.


"RE: Cheating"
Posted by weltek on 08-24-12 at 02:21 PM
Sh!t. I hate seeing people go through this. *hugs* (but not in an extramarital way).


-Handcrafted by RollDdice

"RE: Cheating"
Posted by Max Headroom on 08-24-12 at 03:00 PM
I'll be in Fresno next Monday and Tuesday. Look me up and I'll buy the first beer.

Sorry to hear of your (continued) marital troubles.

"RE: Cheating"
Posted by cahaya on 08-24-12 at 06:40 PM
Whoah. So that explains your absence here lately. I've missed you, dude. Man.
"RE: Cheating"
Posted by kidflash212 on 08-24-12 at 11:03 PM
Not something I wanted to read. Sorry, agman.
"Well"
Posted by foonermints on 08-25-12 at 00:18 AM
That's really BAD. 'Specially with kids.


My friend Captain Bob just sailed his new 42' dinghy down from San Francisco into Marina del Rey. Come on down and we can drink and chase women in the beach cities.
Baja Cantina has a tequila-tasting party tomorrow!
If that's not a blackout, I don't know what is..

"RE: Cheating"
Posted by CTgirl on 08-26-12 at 07:37 PM
Sorry Ag

"RE: Cheating"
Posted by qwertypie on 08-24-12 at 02:50 PM
SH!T!
"RE: Cheating"
Posted by Dakota on 08-24-12 at 04:56 PM
BUT -- You've got a beautiful daughter and a great relationship with her. You clearly treasure and nurture that. And as she gets older, make sure her boyfriends know that if they mess with her, they have some really skeery OTers coming for 'em.



Agman's Spring Fling '12.3

"RE: Cheating"
Posted by Scarlett O Hara on 08-24-12 at 08:41 PM
Agman,

I am truly sorry to hear about this. Some people just can not help themselves. I wish you the very best, however. Things will work out for you, I am sure. Hang in there, Sugar. Hugs...


FISH by agman

"RE: Cheating"
Posted by DearAbby on 08-24-12 at 09:22 PM
Sorry, agman. I've been wondering why you haven't been around as much lately, but I was hoping it was because you were enjoying a fantastic summer vacation.


From agman's garden

"RE: Cheating"
Posted by Silvergirl1 on 08-25-12 at 12:06 PM

I'm so sorry Agman! (((Hugs)))



"{{hugs}}"
Posted by jbug on 08-25-12 at 09:30 PM
I wish there was something I could do or say to help you thru this.
We're here if you need a silly thread to keep you busy; or if you want to start a game or just whatever.
If you need time away, we understand.
You are surrounded by friends here.


Handcrafted by RollDdice
"RE: {{hugs}}"
Posted by cahaya on 08-25-12 at 09:41 PM
Smooch...


agman's birthday present

"RE: {{hugs}}"
Posted by CTgirl on 08-26-12 at 07:38 PM
*like*
"RE: Cheating"
Posted by samboohoo on 09-04-12 at 09:29 AM
*hugs*


Samboobree, brought to life by Arkie


"RE: Cheating"
Posted by dabo on 08-24-12 at 01:53 PM
Well, since you asked...

1. What would you do if you found out your partner/spouse had cheated on you?
I'd be in shock, honestly, and don't know what I'd do beyond that. I'd like to think my rational mind would take charge and ask why? and what can we do to fix this? But I don't know what would really happen and hope never to find out.

2. Does it matter if it were a long-term deal or just a one-night fling?
Long term would probably be more devastating.

3. Does your opinion change if alcohol/drunkeness was a contributing factor?
No.

4. What if it weren't the first time?
See answer to #2.

"RE: Cheating"
Posted by cahaya on 08-24-12 at 09:00 PM
1. What would you do if you found out your partner/spouse had cheated on you?

I would be shocked, but I also know it won't ever happen, knowing my wife very well for 27 years. She is true to her faith and beliefs and this is one of the main reasons I married her.

2. Does it matter if it were a long-term deal or just a one-night fling?

Yes. A long-term deal implies a long-term relationship, a marriage-breaker, while a one-night stand implies a moment of weakness which might be forgiven.

3. Does your opinion change if alcohol/drunkeness was a contributing factor?

Yes, for the worse. A weakness for sex and alcohol is two problems instead of one.

4. What if it weren't the first time?

Then it would be the last time.

5. Any other thoughts/questions/comments?

If one partner and/or the other is seeking companionship outside of marriage, then it's a clear indication that their marriage is at risk. It could be a difference in sex drive, a difference in interests in life, a difference in met needs and wants (sexually, emotionally, in sensitivity, passion and attention), a difference in faith and belief, a difference in marriage expectations, or a difference in mutual communication that is necessary between two people who agree to be partners in life, as husband and wife.

Sometimes two people who marry cannot meet each others' needs, wants and expectations of each other, nor be able to communicate well, in being sensitive to each other. No matter how much two people might think they may want to marry in their love for each other, they will only know each other and how well that they can meet each others' need and expectations and be able to communicate after they marry.

And if two people are not meant for each other, in spite of their differences, then one and/or the other will stray.

"RE: Cheating"
Posted by kingfish on 08-24-12 at 09:39 PM
1. If the cheating was with a woman and was a prelude to a three way, I might get real mad. After the three way.

2. Depends on how #1 went.

3. Yes. Unfortunately little Willie doesn't like to be drunk. Oh, you meant her...then No.

4. It would be.

5. Sorry to hear, Crabman. Bear up, you still got us. We'll never cheat on you. Advice? Get pictures for court.

"RE: Cheating"
Posted by PepeLePew13 on 08-25-12 at 07:54 AM

1. What would you do if you found out your partner/spouse had cheated on you?

I wouldn't stick around.


2. Does it matter if it were a long-term deal or just a one-night fling?

No, you did something major like this once, you'll be likely to do it again - that required more than just an "oops" moment to make that happen.


3. Does your opinion change if alcohol/drunkeness was a contributing factor?

Well, no you're still responsible for whatever happens when drunk - it's not a free pass to excuse your behavior when you make the move to type in a different website (such as Facebook) other than RTVW.


4. What if it weren't the first time?

For me, a second time wouldn't happen, see #1.


5. Any other thoughts/comments?

All those who have cheated on us with Facebook need to understand what they are doing to us! Look at the state of things here lately. Have they no heart?

"RE: Cheating"
Posted by Colonel Zoidberg on 08-25-12 at 10:12 AM
LAST EDITED ON 08-25-12 AT 10:12 AM (EST)

Put it this way - I won't even let my wife sneak bottled water into a movie theater. How do you think I feel about cheating?

Follow-up question - or rather, a reboot of the above questions with a different spin:

1. What would you do if you found out your partner/spouse had falsely accused you of cheating?

2. Does it matter if he/she knows it's false or genuinely believes there's a chance you cheated?

3. Does your opinion change if he/she names a specific person and what your relationship to that person is?

4. What if it weren't the first time? (I'll keep this one worded the same.)

5. If you are falsely accused, do you believe you have to prove your innocence or the other person has to prove your guilt?

"RE: Cheating"
Posted by qwertypie on 08-25-12 at 10:29 AM
1. After being beyond incredibly hurt I would honestly get him checked for a brain tumour or to check if he's had a stroke. The situation we are in with Sam and the state of the house, it's not like I would invite anyone over here for afternoon assignations. (And I am not joking here. We were wondering what the hell was going on with my brother-in-law. He never accused his wife of cheating, but was getting increasingly irrational and paranoid-- huge brain tumor)
2. I don't get number 2 - why would he/she accuse you of cheating if s/he knows it's false? Like during a heated argument? Those are poisonous words and I think it would permenantly damage the relationship.
3. Yes. It would make me consider if maybe I was getting emotional needs met from someone other than DH. Sometimes it's about the optics.
4. I don't think I could live in an atmosphere where there is no trust. I would begin to wonder maybe he was cheating, hence the baseless accusations on me.
5. No. It's a slipperly slope.
But I would suggest conselling for her/him and us because obviously there is something wrong with the relationship (or with the internal state of the spouse)
"RE: Cheating"
Posted by cahaya on 08-25-12 at 11:43 AM
I won't even let my wife sneak bottled water into a movie theater. How do you think I feel about cheating?

Hah! Do you mean that you won't even hop from one venue in the movie house to the other?


A royal agman creation

I must admit, I've seen a whole day of movies on one ticket.

"RE: Cheating"
Posted by Tummy on 08-29-12 at 01:45 PM
I lvoe you (in a non-cheating way!).
"RE: Cheating"
Posted by Silvergirl1 on 08-25-12 at 11:52 AM
1. What would you do if you found out your partner/spouse had falsely accused you of cheating?

I would be more worried that he was thinking about cheating himself, because in my experience, cheaters usually accuse the other half, so they can justify their own thoughts or actions to cheat.

2. Does it matter if he/she knows it's false or genuinely believes there's a chance you cheated?

Yes, it matters if he thinks I have cheated. He should know me, thus should know he trusts me.

3. Does your opinion change if he/she names a specific person and what your relationship to that person is?

In that case, we would be sitting down for a little talk.

4. What if it weren't the first time? (I'll keep this one worded the same.)

I would make an appointment to see a marriage counselor. Repeated false accusations are a sign of trouble.

5. If you are falsely accused, do you believe you have to prove your innocence or the other person has to prove your guilt?

In some cases, I don't think you can prove your innocence. When I was younger, a friend at work thought I had an affair with one of the married auditors. She is still convinced to this day, and I know she won't listen to me when I tell her nothing happened.



"RE: Cheating"
Posted by cahaya on 08-25-12 at 12:15 PM
1. What would you do if you found out your partner/spouse had falsely accused you of cheating?

Then our relationship would have some serious trust issues, and even more likely other issues with trust put up as a front.

2. Does it matter if he/she knows it's false or genuinely believes there's a chance you cheated?

It's time to talk. And if we can't talk, then that perhaps is the main issue.

3. Does your opinion change if he/she names a specific person and what your relationship to that person is?

Then the real issue is jealousy, a seriously destructive emotion that can undermine any relationship. Be open, discuss all that happened and what feelings (if any) there were and there are now.

4. What if it weren't the first time? (I'll keep this one worded the same.)

How many of us have had a single relationship throughout our entire lives?

5. If you are falsely accused, do you believe you have to prove your innocence or the other person has to prove your guilt?

Maybe it's time to prove what's even more important, your commitment as partners in life and love. If false proof becomes an issue, then it's time to consider whether you're in a false relationship.


A royal agman creation

"RE: Cheating"
Posted by kingfish on 08-25-12 at 10:32 PM
And I guess one's answers to these questions would depend on what stage of life and marriage one would be in. If the couple was past their 60th anniversary and in their 80's, for example, either might feel like congratulating the other and thanking the third person.
"RE: Cheating"
Posted by skye on 08-29-12 at 12:22 PM
ZOMG it's me. Yes I sidle in from time to time. This topic happens to an area of expertise:

1. What would you do if you found out your partner/spouse had cheated on you?

Kick him out. Make him sign over title of the house in exchange for a used Jeep Cherokee. Get a divorce. Live well.

2. Does it matter if it were a long-term deal or just a one-night fling?

Nope.

3. Does your opinion change if alcohol/drunkeness was a contributing factor?

No.

4. What if it weren't the first time?

It wasn't but even if it had been betrayal is non-negotiable. See my clarifying remarks below.

5. Any other thoughts/questions/comments?

If two consenting adults agree that monogamy may not be possible and that outside relationships may be an option as long as they are agreed to beforehand and precautions are taken then there is never a reason to do anything on the d/l. The fact that he did so anyways on multiple occasions was proof enough that he didn't deserve me.


"RE: Cheating"
Posted by AyaK on 08-29-12 at 11:29 PM
LAST EDITED ON 08-30-12 AT 09:09 AM (EST)

I can't believe you all were so eager to share about this. But, like skye, I've been through this, and so . . .

1. What would you do if you found out your partner/spouse had cheated on you?

My first reaction was utter shock. Sleeping with our next-door neighbor? Then I felt stupid for not having figured it out. Heck, I probably wouldn't have figured it out if my wife hadn't asked me to fix her e-mail account, where she still had messages to her lover, along with a plan to hook up the next day.

2. Does it matter if it were a long-term deal or just a one-night fling?

Believe it or not, I was less bothered that it was a long-term deal. My wife has serious issues with both mental illness and alcoholism, and I was actually relieved that she wasn't out just looking for casual hook-ups (because we'd been through that before, a story which I'd prefer not to discuss).

3. Does your opinion change if alcohol/drunkeness was a contributing factor?

See answer 2.

4. What if it weren't the first time?

Without going into details, it wasn't. My condition, though, was that, after she came back out of the mental hospital (where she'd checked herself in because the breakup was so hard on her!?), it had to be the last.

5. Any other thoughts/questions/comments?

The other couple still lives next door to us. But since then, my kids have gone from 7 and 6 to 16 and 15, and I felt that it was important to keep their lives as stable as possible when they were young. Was I right? I'll ask them in a few years.

"RE: Cheating"
Posted by byoffer on 08-30-12 at 09:00 AM
Sorry to hear about your story, AyaK. My kids were just a bit younger when I went through similar, and my actions were all about them at the time. As I mentioned above, my initial reaction was to follow your path. This didn't work, and we ended up splitting, but we were able to keep a focus on co-parenting the kids.

One thing that I have never done is mention why we split to the kids. I figured this could only do damage when they were young. Not sure what will happen if they ask at some point in the future now that they are 16+.

"wow, again"
Posted by cqvenus on 08-30-12 at 09:31 AM

AyaK, to quote south park, "holy sh!t, dude!"

byoffer: your kids have never asked??? i have a 9 yr old stepson and i am just dreading the day he asks us why his parents aren't together. it wasn't about cheating, it's just complicated and mostly leads back to "your mom was crazy," therefore i don't want to discuss it.

then again, they have never been together his entire life, so maybe he's just used to it and won't ever question it. my kids ask why he doesn't live with us and i simply tell them "some kids live with just their dad, some with just their mom, and some with both, some with neither, live with grandparents or other people entirely," and they've just accepted it.

of course my kids are still young (6.5 and 5)...

sorry to hijack...

cq

"RE: wow, again"
Posted by byoffer on 09-03-12 at 11:00 PM
The weird part is that I have no idea what their mother might have told them. I would hope that she would have told me if they had ever discussed (part of our parenting plan was to share this sort of thing) but who knows.

I feel like I have taken the high road, and hope that is best for the kids.

"wow"
Posted by cqvenus on 08-30-12 at 09:08 AM

i know you asked mostly for men but it's never really stopped me before.

DH and i have a deal... whoever cheats loses the kids. that was our verbal prenup which contained no other details about anything.

cheating, to me, is completely unforgiveable. there are bigger things in life than having relations. we have four lives here we are talking about, not including our own.

cq

sorry to hear about your situation, agman

"RE: wow"
Posted by qwertypie on 09-03-12 at 11:38 PM
Mr. Qwerty and I joke to each other that who ever leaves has to take the kids. I think we are going to be stuck with each other for a long time.
"lol"
Posted by cqvenus on 09-04-12 at 08:02 AM
we have 3 and another on the way, so i can easily see us transitioning to this philosophy!

cq

"A Stretch of the Imagination (of course) ... "
Posted by Georjanna on 08-30-12 at 07:28 PM
LAST EDITED ON 08-30-12 AT 07:35 PM (EST)

But what if you were the transgressor?

And your spouse or partner knew it. In fact, everyone who mattered in your lives - and a great many people who didn't - knew it.

1. Would you expect your spouse or partner to demand that you leave? Or to ask that you stay? Concessions/Terms?

2. Would you choose to leave? Or would you choose to stay? Concessions/Terms?

3. Having considered the question from a second perspective, have you reconsidered your first answers?


"RE: Cheating"
Posted by samboohoo on 09-04-12 at 09:29 AM
I realized I never answered.

For me, the act of cheating is pretty black & white, but the after-effects have many shades of gray (no pun intended).

1. What would you do if you found out your partner/spouse had cheated on you?

I would be completely shocked - especially if I never saw it coming. I would be sick. I would want to punch him in the face and probably her as well if she knew he were married. If I were younger and a lesser-established woman in my community, I probably would punch them both in the face.

2. Does it matter if it were a long-term deal or just a one-night fling?

No.

3. Does your opinion change if alcohol/drunkeness was a contributing factor?

No.

4. What if it weren't the first time?

This probably makes it worse. Having been cheated on before and my reaction before, I promised myself I wouldn't be a "victim" to that again. Not to say that it couldn't happen to me again, but I would hope my reaction to it would be different. It's hell to rebuild from, and I don't know that I would let myself go through that hell again.

5. Any other thoughts/questions/comments?

The child factor. Here is where the shades of gray can come in. I don't think it's easy to just walk away when you have a child. No matter what their age. And I've seen so many times where the child/children were put in the middle. Your cheating spouse may be the biggest piece of crap for what they did, but they are still someone you have to be somewhat involved with pretty much forever because of your child. So I would hope that you could work out some sort of civility for your child.


Samboobree, brought to life by Arkie

"Since"
Posted by foonermints on 09-08-12 at 05:42 AM
Sandee and I are not married and have no children, it would be our own choice. I've been tempted, but no. It would damage my Soul too much. (my Soul is a precious object, known to but a few).

Sandee can do whatever she likes. Hopefully, she still likes me.


More to come of the past when I can figure it out myself...

"RE: Since"
Posted by foonermints on 09-08-12 at 06:52 AM
Replying to your own post: a sure sign of sanity:
"RE: Cheating"
Posted by Dakota on 09-08-12 at 11:33 AM
It's easier to make generalizations in hypothetical situations than it is to face the real thing. Cheating is a symptom of something wrong. Bad as the situation is at that point, it can force both parties to deal with the issues and resolve them one way or another. I don't think it's a time for friends and family to dictate a course of action. Support, counsel, encourage or hit on head with a nerf bat, but the underlying problems need to be addressed by the couple involved.

Note to Fooner: sanity is a whole other issue. I suggest we not mention it until after the US election.


Agman's Spring Fling '12.3