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Original Message
"Musing on a cultural shift"
Posted by Snidget on 07-05-12 at 07:32 AM
Heard this again today, and for some reason it struck me, "Parents do not bury their children."Considering for most of human history you hoped you didn't bury all your children, and having both parents live long enough to be grandparents was uncommon. I mean usually someone in the village lived that long and was the elder everyone went to, but rare was the family that was intact for several generations at the same time.
I was just wondering how much burden that puts on the parents who have kids die. How lonely it must feel to not only be grieving your child but to feel it isn't a shared human experience and that you are the only one (or one of the few).
Do we treat our children differently because we expect them to be immortal (or at least live longer than us) rather than always having to be with the uncertainty that they may not make it?
Is it because one of my summer school classmates died early? Or that I always knew Mom had a miscarriage and there should have been 4 of us not just 3. Or the death totals on the TV during the Vietnam War and being the kid of a WWII vet and just being clear that lots of stuff kills people way too young? In addition to the death total from my brother's high school class as it seemed better to die from drunk driving before being sent overseas to die.
For some reason I never bought into the idea that it is a near requirement that kids must outlive their parents, meaning if that doesn't happen you have not only had your loss but somehow violated the natural order of things.
I hope the parents I just saw on TV get the support and find out they are not nearly as alone as they seemed. Lots of people lose their kids. It is a terrible tragedy every time it happens, but I just don't see why our culture seems to have added the burden of it shouldn't/can't/never happens to anyone else.
Sorry if this touched anyone's tender spots. Just musing on when this cultural change hit, and how it effects all the millions of parents that are the "exception" to the rule, when they used to be the rule.
Table of contents
- RE: Musing on a cultural shift,jbug, 09:20 AM, 07-05-12
- RE: Musing on a cultural shift,kingfish, 09:58 AM, 07-05-12
- RE: Musing on a cultural shift,Starshine, 10:23 AM, 07-05-12
- RE: Musing on a cultural shift,kingfish, 12:09 PM, 07-05-12
- RE: Musing on a cultural shift,Seana, 12:48 PM, 07-05-12
- RE: Musing on a cultural shift,Starshine, 02:27 PM, 07-05-12
- RE: Musing on a cultural shift,byoffer, 04:22 PM, 07-05-12
- RE: Musing on a cultural shift,Snidget, 06:18 PM, 07-05-12
- RE: Musing on a cultural shift,newsomewayne, 03:41 PM, 07-05-12
- RE: Musing on a cultural shift,Estee, 03:50 PM, 07-05-12
- RE: Musing on a cultural shift,Starshine, 10:12 AM, 07-05-12
- RE: Musing on a cultural shift,kingfish, 10:16 AM, 07-05-12
- RE: Musing on a cultural shift,frodis, 10:52 AM, 07-05-12
- RE: Musing on a cultural shift,Snidget, 06:29 PM, 07-05-12
- RE: Musing on a cultural shift,frodis, 10:08 AM, 07-06-12
- RE: Musing on a cultural shift,Max Headroom, 11:36 AM, 07-05-12
- RE: Musing on a cultural shift,frodis, 11:57 AM, 07-05-12
- RE: Musing on a cultural shift,Max Headroom, 07:25 AM, 07-06-12
- RE: Musing on a cultural shift,Tummy, 10:13 AM, 07-06-12
- RE: Musing on a cultural shift,kingfish, 01:01 PM, 07-05-12
- RE: Musing on a cultural shift,Estee, 01:11 PM, 07-05-12
- RE: Musing on a cultural shift,byoffer, 04:33 PM, 07-05-12
- RE: Musing on a cultural shift,Snidget, 06:22 PM, 07-05-12
- RE: Musing on a cultural shift,Max Headroom, 07:26 AM, 07-06-12
- RE: Musing on a cultural shift,Sunny_Bunny, 01:03 AM, 07-06-12
- RE: Musing on a cultural shift,Max Headroom, 07:28 AM, 07-06-12
- RE: Musing on a cultural shift,Snidget, 08:05 AM, 07-06-12
- RE: Musing on a cultural shift,Tummy, 10:19 AM, 07-06-12
- RE: Musing on a cultural shift,Snidget, 11:54 AM, 07-06-12
- RE: Musing on a cultural shift,Tummy, 12:43 PM, 07-06-12
- RE: Musing on a cultural shift,Snidget, 01:01 PM, 07-06-12
- RE: Musing on a cultural shift,byoffer, 01:14 PM, 07-06-12
Messages in this discussion
"RE: Musing on a cultural shift"
Posted by jbug on 07-05-12 at 09:20 AM
This hit home this week.
A young man - age 30 - died in a one car accident on Tuesday night; he was discovered on Wed morning by one of his uncles who was on his way to the store (rural county road).I didn't really know him; but have known his parents all my life just about.
I have been thinking about them a lot yesterday & today; they must be in so much pain & probably denial. I know I would be.
As hard as it is to bury ones parents, and I don't have children;
I can not imagine the feeling that parents must have.
"RE: Musing on a cultural shift"
Posted by kingfish on 07-05-12 at 09:58 AM
Yeah, outliving children is hard to deal with. And very sad.But I think throughout history having both parents live long enough to be grandparents was probably more common than one may think. When life was hard and life expectancy was shorter (40's? If one survived childhood?) teenage motherhood was common, thus grandparent-hood could occur in one's 30's. Even today being a grandparent in one's 40's isn't too uncommon.
"RE: Musing on a cultural shift"
Posted by Starshine on 07-05-12 at 10:23 AM
I remember being very surprised how late people actually got married in Shakespeare's time1566-1619 27.0 years
1647-1719 29.6 years
1719-1779 26.8 years
1770-1837 25.1 years
I cannot see the figures for childbirth, however I believe that it would be of a similar age (although I'm not that up on modern history)
link
"RE: Musing on a cultural shift"
Posted by kingfish on 07-05-12 at 12:09 PM
I was thinking of when I was young. The second ice age, or so.
"RE: Musing on a cultural shift"
Posted by Seana on 07-05-12 at 12:48 PM
Is that "people" or just men, Starshine? In Medival Lit, we did a unit on marriage. IIRC, girls were married in their late teens, but men were expected to have made something of themselves before marrying, which they couldn't do at a young age.
"RE: Musing on a cultural shift"
Posted by Starshine on 07-05-12 at 02:27 PM
Actually all those "people" are women!The article continues The marriage age of men was probably the same or a bit older than that of women.
I guess that the age of marriage depended on class (as everything does over here)
second reference This seems to be assumption instead of research, however it does have working/middle class marriages happening later.
"RE: Musing on a cultural shift"
Posted by byoffer on 07-05-12 at 04:22 PM
I will agree those stats might need validation, as I had thought along the lines of Seana's comment.Certainly in waring times men tended to die younger. This could be medieval times, or during the more recent wars (during any century). Today I think the statistics would say many less deaths occur to wars and accidents than in the past. Wars and accidents tend to kill less discriminantly to age (or maybe more at younger ages, say 15-35).
Living in Canada without a high percent of the population exposed to this sort of risk, I think it is more unexpected to die before ones children. Add to that the shrinking size of typical families (aside from the Duggars) and thus losing a child today probably hurts even more than historically (if that is possible).
I can think of a few situations of people who I have known who have buried children.
- One was a 85-90 year old couple whose 65 yr old son died due to a sudden illness. There was another brother, but this brother was eldest and probably visited the most. Even at that age the couple really struggled (especially the father, who died a few months later. Old age or sorrow?)
- A second was a 70ish couple who 46 yr old son died. This was again a fairly short illness following a heart attack. He was middle child (of 3) and eldest son. This couple struggled also, but decided to take out their anger on their son's spouse for making his life stressful. Weird.
- The last was a heart breaker. The mother (40ish) had been trying for years to get pregnant (and spending mucho $$) and finally got pregnant. Of course, with twins. They she went into labour, at about 20 weeks. Yikes. They were able to keep the babies in for a while, but they both came out way too early. One died and the other (miraculously) survived. Devastated mother, but at least she got to keep one. I can't imagine how she would have been if both had died.
As a parent, this is a tough topic!
"RE: Musing on a cultural shift"
Posted by Snidget on 07-05-12 at 06:18 PM
I guess I'm weird. I've known quite a few people that have buried their kids (from newborn to adult kids). A lot of them class-mates, class-mates of my brothers (For some reason my one brother's class there was like a drunk driving funeral almost every week for a few months during senior year) but a lot of adults I've known who have suffered this kind of loss. What shocks me sometimes is how many people I find out lost kids before I knew them. I know part of that is I'm not in a small village where I know everyone and people don't move in and leave hardly ever. I think what bothers me is the extra shame there seems to be. Like they'd rather admit to anything else, no matter how painful, illegal or immoral. For me it is a tragedy every single time it happens, but something that is a part of life. I just wonder if when either we all knew each other better, or when it was rare for a family to be untouched by this kind of tragedy if there was this same level of shouldn't and shame. I think the tragedy level was always the same level of painfulness, even back when people had more births on average.
Although my one uncle was considered a bit insane because after nearly losing his bride before their first anniversary to a truly horrendous and nearly fatal pregnancy/birth he decided to get a vasectomy rather than risk her ever again. Some of that was what would happen if you lost the one kid, and I think some was not seeing her as replaceable.
I guess for me the "this shouldn't happen" is not just a bad things that really suck if they happen but things that are insane that we still allow them to happen because that is something we could actually fix if we wanted to. Like there are more than enough calories and nutrients grown in the USA every year that no child should die of malnutrition or starvation. Bad enough that we let people starve in parts of the world where agriculture can and does regularly collapse and there isn't enough food locally produced, but for kids to be starving in the land of plenty...to me that takes effort to make sure it happens on someone's part. We could easily prevent it if we wanted to. Just some portion of society doesn't want to. They prefer a system where kids die of starvation and malnutrition.
But no matter what we do, even in the best situation, people will die. Some of them will be kids. Some of the kids will die while their parents are still alive. Even if we had universal health care and world wide peace broke out including all countries and terrorists.
I do think a lot of parents do live in fear of what if it happens to me. It just bothers me sometimes the "this shouldn't happen" rather than "when this happens..." I think that gives a different mindset and a different empathy for the afflicted. But that may just be me.
"RE: Musing on a cultural shift"
Posted by newsomewayne on 07-05-12 at 03:41 PM
So based on this, Romeo & Juliet was less romantic tragedy and more pedophiliac fantasy?
"RE: Musing on a cultural shift"
Posted by Estee on 07-05-12 at 03:50 PM
Do you really need an extra excuse to have it banned?Plays are intellectual elitism. Next?
"RE: Musing on a cultural shift"
Posted by Starshine on 07-05-12 at 10:12 AM
I seem to remember Homer saying that it was every parents nightmare to die before their children.But then it isn't that long ago that the leading cause of death amongst women of a childbearing age was Phthisis apparently with childbirth coming in second.
Simpson that is
"RE: Musing on a cultural shift"
Posted by kingfish on 07-05-12 at 10:16 AM
You're old!
"RE: Musing on a cultural shift"
Posted by frodis on 07-05-12 at 10:52 AM
No. There has been no cultural shift with this. If anything, there's no where you can go without reading a story about a kid dying. It is an ever present fear, from the moment of conception, that something, anything, everything could go wrong. Every parent gives birth knowing that the child will die someday and we just hope that it's a long, long, long time before it happens. And until we ourselves die, there's a constant "what if" ticker running in our heads. Constant.
In times and places where infant mortality is high and childhood death is very common, there's no parent who buries a child and looks at his or her remaining children and thinks, "well, 4 out of 5 ain't bad." Similarly, no parent buries a child thinking that it couldn't have happened. Only that their worst fear came true. Only that that they desperately wish it hadn't.
The statement "parents don't bury their children" is not a statement of disbelief or expectation of immortality. It is a recognition of mortality, a shared fear, and a deep empathy for parents who are dealing with this grief. It is a statement of sorrow for the depth of suffering that a parent burying a child must feel. It is almost unbearable to think of suffering it ourselves. But don't for a moment believe that we don't think about it.
"RE: Musing on a cultural shift"
Posted by Snidget on 07-05-12 at 06:29 PM
I didn't really mean people don't think of it happening individually to them, or have those fears.Just does it change the suffering when something goes from a bad thing that is awful when it happens, and we all agree it actually does happen, to something that should never happen to anyone.
It may just be how the semantics hit me when people say them. Especially this morning, it didn't sound like it came from a here is a shared human tragedy type of place.
"RE: Musing on a cultural shift"
Posted by frodis on 07-06-12 at 10:08 AM
I understand what you are saying. However, I do think it may be a matter of semantics. No one really believes that children always outlive their parents, as if it's some kind of law of the universe. That's just a wish. It would be more literal to say that we hope that children always outlive their parents, but know all too clearly that it's not true. No one wants to see someone else suffering their worst nightmare.I also don't think it was any easier (or less of an emotional burden) in the past to bury a child, nor do I think that there was any greater support network for it just because it happened a lot. In times when we didn't have names for diseases or understand why people died, and all deaths were blamed on curses or God taking them away for some reason we're not allowed to understand, the emotional blow and isolation from that had to be unbearable.
My great-grandmother buried five of her twelve children. Three of them were under the age of 1. One was almost 10. And one was killed at war at the age of 19. Can you even imagine? FIVE children? For a woman who was a homemaker, isolated, alone, no counseling services, expected to "get over it" and carry on for the sake of her other children, in a church who only told her that her babies (the baptized ones, anyway) were in heaven and that she should not question but only accept God's plan, and be sure to have more babies right away? (but if she wavers in her faith and questions God on the deaths of her other children, she'll probably have to bury those babies, too.) How she got through that, I'll never know.
It's easy to look at the statistics of infant and child mortality in times past and see them as only statistics, and forget that each of those numbers was a deeply personal and painful loss for each person who experienced it, and most of them didn't get help or support of any kind. It's easy to say, well, it happened a lot so people were probably more accepting of it and used to it than we are now. And again, I say, now, as ever, children dying is a headline every single day and there is no getting used to it.
My cousin just buried his 4 month old son early last month. I still say that no parent should have to go through what they went through. What I mean, when I say that, is that they are living every parent's worst nightmare, and I hate to see anyone suffering in that way.
When speaking of/to a grieving parent, you can say "no parent should have to bury a child." Or you can say "People die every day, and some of them are children, so statistically speaking, it had to be someone. Sorry it's you." Both technically true and saying the same thing, but one of those is going to get you kicked in the teeth.
"RE: Musing on a cultural shift"
Posted by Max Headroom on 07-05-12 at 11:36 AM
As someone who has buried a child, I wouldn't recommend the experience to anyone.
August 18, 2000 was a very sad day.
"RE: Musing on a cultural shift"
Posted by frodis on 07-05-12 at 11:57 AM
Maybe it's because we talked about it in the bar while I was pregnant with my son, but I think about you and what you went through with the loss of your son fairly often. It's why I hold my breath when anyone I know is giving birth until I hear that mom and baby are doing fine, because you just can't take anything for granted.*hug*
"RE: Musing on a cultural shift"
Posted by Max Headroom on 07-06-12 at 07:25 AM
I also remember those conversations in the bar, and I was very happy when your son was born and everything was fine. That's how things are supposed to happen-- a woman gets pregnant, and when the time comes, a healthy baby is born and the maternity ward is full of happy people.But sometimes that story has a different ending.
"RE: Musing on a cultural shift"
Posted by Tummy on 07-06-12 at 10:13 AM
Hugs Max.
"RE: Musing on a cultural shift"
Posted by kingfish on 07-05-12 at 01:01 PM
I didn't know, Max, I had no idea. So very sorry to hear.After my Mom died (also a traumatic event) my sister and I were going thru a box of her most private possessions, and we cam across an unfinished report card of her little sister who had been killed by a car at about 8-9 years old.
I had known of her (the child, my aunt) but the poignancy of the stark little incomplete report card, with only three semesters of grades with her Mom's three signatures for those semesters in different shades of ink brought us to our knees.
Mom had saved it for all these years, and this little card that had recorded her short life's achievements and had been brought home faithfully in her little hands, was all that remained of this poor little girl.
"RE: Musing on a cultural shift"
Posted by Estee on 07-05-12 at 01:11 PM
Belated megacrap. *sigh* Sorry about the reminder.
"RE: Musing on a cultural shift"
Posted by byoffer on 07-05-12 at 04:33 PM
I didn't know about this Max. So sorry to hear about. My guess is some scars never really heal.*hugs*
"RE: Musing on a cultural shift"
Posted by Snidget on 07-05-12 at 06:22 PM
{{{hugs}}}As I said above, a tragedy each and every time it happens, and I hope that you got the support you needed then and may still need today.
"RE: Musing on a cultural shift"
Posted by Max Headroom on 07-06-12 at 07:26 AM
The darkness will always be inside me, but it no longer consumes me, and it hasn't for a long time now.
"RE: Musing on a cultural shift"
Posted by Sunny_Bunny on 07-06-12 at 01:03 AM
Thankfully I haven't had to bury a child, but that doesn't mean that I haven't been affected.I lost my oldest brother to a drunk driver when I was 9. I watched as my parents had to deal with his death and then my other brother going off to the army during the Vietnam war. Right through high school I lost friends to different deaths.
Needless to say, by the time I had my two sons there was no way I could live in the bubble of "immortality" that you mentioned. Then in 99 we had the May from hell where we lost a family member a week for the whole month - including my other brother who was hit by lightning. This brother was a huge part of my son's lives, and so they also lost the ability to believe that it could never happen to them.
Most of you know I lost my parents within a year of each other. Then this year, my son Brian lost his best friend and another friend to a drunk diver. I have tried to be there for the mothers of the boys and for Brian, but I don't remember any of them ever saying they felt alone.
One thing I will say, is that once you have lived through this, you can spot the people who have never lost anyone close to them. These are the people who expect you to "get over it," and don't understand why you are still "sad" two months later. I saw this happen with Mum and Dad, and to the mothers of the boys who were killed in January.
"RE: Musing on a cultural shift"
Posted by Max Headroom on 07-06-12 at 07:28 AM
One thing I will say, is that once you have lived through this, you can spot the people who have never lost anyone close to them. These are the people who expect you to "get over it," and don't understand why you are still "sad" two months later.*sits with the Bunny*
There's the voice of experience. Been there, done that.
"RE: Musing on a cultural shift"
Posted by Snidget on 07-06-12 at 08:05 AM
I guess I'm wondering if it was different when it was unusual for a family to have no losses at all. If there was less "we are alone in this grief". It saddens me when we seem as a society to add extra burdens to the grieving when they don't need that at all.Some things that seemed to be pretty common expressions of grief in the past are seen as macabre today and I wonder how much of "kids just always outlive their parents" plays into that compared to back when I don't think people could say that as the reality was just so different.
When did our culture get so grief adverse and lack all empathy fro those that have grief? I just wonder how much certain beliefs play into that. I still have problems understanding how anyone gets to their thirties without ever having been to a funeral. I'm glad my parents took me along to funerals. How else do you learn how to be with the grief of others if you avoid it completely? Eventually you will have grief, it is just part of life, IMO.
"RE: Musing on a cultural shift"
Posted by Tummy on 07-06-12 at 10:19 AM
As a parent we try to do everything and anything to protect our children (or we should) - that's our job. So when a child dies it leaves us not only at a loss, grief stricken and hurt but that we've somehow failed as a parent. Regardless of what happened, we should have been able to protect and we didn't. It doesn't matter that we couldn't.I would imagine that we've always felt like that, we just say it outloud now.
"RE: Musing on a cultural shift"
Posted by Snidget on 07-06-12 at 11:54 AM
I thought everyone always said that. I agree with that.It just seems there may be, to me, extra shame when we go from "some parents, and I think at some points in history most parents will lose a child and have to bury them" as the way the world unfortunately is to "parents should never outlive their children". Sadly, all too many parents still outlive their kids.
Maybe it is how I heard the should, or the tone that was used in the news cast. I think it is enough of a tragedy without making someone feel even more isolated and more of a failure because their tragedy is no longer common.
Let's just say for some reason at this point in my life, sharing the idea that there is a "should" that was violated when a child dies is off the table (I don't want to add to the shame they feel, they didn't deliberately set out to do this) and I won't say it. For some reason, in my head, I don't think you failed by not dying first helps.
But that is me. Everyone else can say it til the cows come home if they find it comforting or think it helps people grieve.
And maybe some of my risk assessment background and judgements about the risks some people take or don't take comes in. Like a parent that won't put a kid in the car seat. Just because lots of people say that kids always outlive their parents doesn't make it so.
On the other hand, I still want my Lawn Darts back, so I'm as hypocritical as anyone.
"RE: Musing on a cultural shift"
Posted by Tummy on 07-06-12 at 12:43 PM
I have to say that the military has a great support system with the organization TAPS - Tragedy Assistance Programs. They have "camps" every year putting parent with parent, sibling with sibling and significant others with significant others. It's a really good program.
"RE: Musing on a cultural shift"
Posted by Snidget on 07-06-12 at 01:01 PM
Good to know. I wish there were more programs like that for everyone.
"RE: Musing on a cultural shift"
Posted by byoffer on 07-06-12 at 01:14 PM
I saw a commercial a while back for a new and improved (well, safer) game of lawn darts called Jarts.http://cn1.kaboodle.com/hi/img/b/0/0/53/c/AAAAC55F8k0AAAAAAFPNjw.jpg?v=1244860749000
What's next, Olympic javelins with safety corks on the end??