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Original Message
"Is it fair to female contestants in this leg of the race?"
Posted by ALT on 07-06-03 at 01:05 AM
I have always thought it is always advantageous to have a MM or a MF pairing in TAR with all those strenuous detours and constant jogging and sprinting to the check points. Really looking forward to a time to have a FF combination taking the game.

Watching this leg of the race confirms the belief even more. It should at least be a non-elimination leg, given that it is going to be quite unfair to the ladies.

If contestants refused to go up that train cos it will lead to outrage of their modesty, is it wrong? Who wants to be groped and pinched? Isn't that a threat to their personal safety? What if one female contestant went up the train while the partner and the filming crew couldn't squeeze up, what will happen then? Millie was almost separated from Chuck. Luckily, Chuck could put aside his claustrophobia and pushed his way through. I really pity the girls.

Anyone else can think of tasks that unwittingly discriminate against female contestants? I thought the bicycle fixing from scratch during the Flo and Zach season was also bad. don't think there was a FF pairing at that point though.

Just my 2 cents worth. It still remains one of my fav shows ahead of survivor.

ALT

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Messages in this discussion
"RE: Is it fair to female contestants in this leg of the race?"
Posted by Chrissy gal on 07-06-03 at 01:13 AM
TAR seems to be geared towards men winning in more ways than the strenuousness of the tasks. I think the NFL wives might have had a more difficult time getting directions in India because they are women.

Do you remember Emily and her mom not being able to purchase train tickets because the clerk wouldn't talk to them?

I sometimes wonder if it would be a good idea to have all the teams be co-ed. It would make it impossible for gay couples to be on together, but it would take away the advantage of the all male teams.

"RE: Is it fair to female contestants in this leg of the race?"
Posted by magic_star on 07-06-03 at 01:28 AM
I believe the same thing here as I did for Christy in Survivor. They can't just go out trying to make it perfect for everyone and set it up perfectly for teams with disadvantages. Every team will most likely have some disadvantage in some country. It's just what happens around the world.

Should they have made the French leg a non-elimination since some people, like Steve/Josh can't speak French, so they're not able to get help? The teams that can't speak French had a huge disadvantage, because the French won't help you unless you attempt to speak their language. Maybe Josh's school didn't teach French. It's not fair that he would have to go out on his time to learn French while other teams who had better schools already knew it. That's not fair at all.

So it's ok to help a team like Monica/Sheree, but not Steve/Josh even though their disadvantage is just as justifiable?

The fact is, there are disadvantages everywhere in the world and that's the way it's supposed to be. The teams have to deal with it and move on.

T-Mac hits the three! Magic Win! Magic Win!

"RE: Is it fair to female contestants in this leg of the race?"
Posted by Edgeless Grass on 07-06-03 at 02:24 AM
I agree with what magic_star said. This is not a game about fair-ness. This game was spelled out clearly up front to all participants that it's a race around the world...and countries around the world are different. There is no way you could get total fair-ness. If you think you can't cope with it, don't join the game.

While we see Kelly refuse to squeeze up the train, we see Millie just go for it with no fear. If Tian/Jaree can get their direction, then why not Monica and Sheree?

I think as long as the producer ensure the safety for the player, the other will have to rely on their survivor instinct on how to get themselve protected from being molest. I think Kelly's method of hanging her bag in front of her is a good way. Jon should do his part of standing behind her. As for Tian/Jaree, I don't suppose getting the crew to help here is against any game's rule?

---------- Bye!! ---------

"RE: Is it fair to female contestants in this leg of the race?"
Posted by cyclehausen on 07-06-03 at 02:32 AM
Just click on the "Interviews" link on the left. Guido said it perfectly. Sure, Nancy and Emily had trouble in India, but their femininity was an advantage in many other situations. People are more likely to want to help two ladies.

That said, I do think male-male teams have an advantage only because the producers cast more of them than female-female teams.


"I am an unlimited person, sadly living in a limited world."-Harlan Ellison
Nobody ever showered ME with ten-franc coins

"RE: Is it fair to female contestants in this leg of the race?"
Posted by ALT on 07-06-03 at 05:38 AM
I do agree that unfairness are abound in this world. The advantage of knowing the native language can be significant for example. My all time fav team Kevin and Drew probably lose out cos they didn't know what to make of the chinese word ' Nan Men' (South gate), while the guidos turned to their dictionary for help and reached there slightly ahead of them. Urgh!!!

In this case, though, I don't think it is about fairness. To put the female contestants on the receiving end of any molestation isn't about fairness. The producers should have anticipate this problem but still went ahead with it. It might be better if they are given a choice of taking the train or other forms of transport.If they opted to go up the train cos it is probably faster, it is at least their choice.

Even for dangerous stunt like skydiving, there will always be an alternative choice of walking down the slopes.


"RE: Is it fair to female contestants in this leg of the race?"
Posted by Bebo on 07-06-03 at 12:30 PM
Once again, Americans try to impose their rules on the rest of the world.

As a woman who has traveled extensively, I can tell you that the "molestation" that the women were exposed to was not uncommon, as different cultures handle things differently. It's not uncommon for a woman to be pinched, or even followed, but that's all that happens - there's no danger whatsoever. That's their version of the construction worker yelling out comments to women walking by.

It's ridiculous to say that the race is unfair because woman are exposed to that aspect of the culture. As has been pointed out, some were able to handle it quite well.

There are times that being female can definitely be to your advantage. Some cultures will respond much better to women asking for help, expecting a man to be strong enough to be able to find his own way. And certain behaviors will be forgiven in a woman, while in a man they could lead to a fight.

Would I have been unnerved to have been pinched and groped on the train? It would have bothered me, but it would have been something that I could have easily moved on from.

Do I think it put the teams at a disadvantage? Absolutely not. Jon was showing admiration for Kelly for how she handled the situation and holding her hand afterwards, so it helped that team. Millie appeared unphased by the whole experience. Tian was vocal about it while it happened, but she quickly moved back to the task at hand. And she and Jaree got along better during this leg of the race, so it could even be argued that enduring that together strengthened their team.

Yes, an all-female team lost this leg, but it wasn't because of anything that happened on the train - they lost that leg before they even got to the train station.

Bebo, Mistress of EVIL and your American Idol PTTE co-champ

"RE: Is it fair to female contestants in this leg of the race?"
Posted by anotherkim on 07-06-03 at 03:53 PM
LOL, they lost before they even got on the bus to the train station since they couldn't seem to figure that part out without someone showing them where to go.

Miscellaneous Ramblings
--and ditto all that bebo said

"RE: Is it fair to female contestants in this leg of the race?"
Posted by managerr on 07-07-03 at 11:45 AM
This leg was indeed tougher for female players, especially an all-female team, but every leg is going to be tougher for certain players. Note that a lot of these trains did have cars for women only. Monica and Sheree had no problem because they found the train car that had all women on it. (Or got on First Class) I posted on another board that I had a problem with the roadblock. The roadblock was basically heavy lifting.

In either case, you're going to have a variety of legs. Grueling physical legs and legs like Episode 2, which was one big bunching fest where the outcome was decided by a mind puzzle/mask recognition. Teams have fast forwards for this reason too. Gender does play a factor, but so do the individual skills that the racers have developed during their lives. Tian/Jaree have language skills, travel experience, were in shape, and are attractive. Monica and Sheree also had travel experience, were in-shape, friendly, and knew how to deal with professional athletes. (If they ever ran into any)

"I have no problem with it!"
Posted by wildchickenhunter on 07-07-03 at 01:57 PM
<Who wants to be groped and pinched? >

WCH has no problem being groped or pinched....let me in the race!!!!

A little action on an Indian train is a good as the nudie bar!

"RE: I have no problem with it!"
Posted by indian girl on 07-07-03 at 05:28 PM
Another point to make is that during the train ride in Bombay, there are designated "ladies only" car and any of the female only teams who saw the local female passengers gathered at one area of the platform had the advantage of riding that car. If any of those f/f teams took that car, they would probably had a seat all the way to the detour. So yes, in some cases men only teams have an advantage, but in other cases female only teams also have an advantage.
"RE: I have no problem with it!"
Posted by Chrissy gal on 07-08-03 at 02:03 AM
I know this is a little off topic, but - I didn't know there were "ladies only" cars on trains in India. Would a man traveling with his wife ride in a different car from her? Do children under a certain age travel with the women? Emily and Nancy had difficulty purchasing a ticket for the train when they were on TAR - would there be a separate place for the women to buy tickets, or would the assumption be that a man would purchase the ticket for the woman?

I understand if you don't know the answers to these questions, but I love to travel and am very interested in these kinds of customs.

"RE: I have no problem with it!"
Posted by indian girl on 07-08-03 at 03:30 PM
When I was in Bombay, they had "ladies only" cars as well as "family" cars. On the ladies only car, there were boys up to about pre-teen age riding it. These trains are the local trains, much like the ones the racers took. For the next train the racers are going to take (26 hour train ride), there are no "ladies only" or "family only" cars but there are many different classes of cars 1st class A/C, 2nd class A/C, 2nd class non-A/C, 3rd class. For these trains, you must purchase a ticket and you pay according to class. You will be assigned a seat or berth(usually only in 1st class/2nd class). I took this type of train from Kerala to Karnataka (my mom and 2 sisters). We all go sleeping berths in 1st Class A/C (by American standards the price differential between 1st class and 3rd class is merely $10-$15 US dollars.) From seeing the previews for the next episode, I think the racers (Kelly/Jon and Reichen/Chip have 2nd class Non-AC berths. They are sitting across from each other, but above them look like two extra pull down berths. I am also assuming that it's non-A/C because of the preview that says boiling hot filty cars.
"RE: I have no problem with it!"
Posted by AZ_Leo on 07-11-03 at 02:13 PM
Actually, because the teams have to stay with the camera crew and it is proable the crew had at least one male, all female teams couldn't have taken advantage of this option.
"Show is totally bogus"
Posted by toddE on 07-11-03 at 07:31 AM
The question of TAR being sexist has been heavily discussed in the past. I was into it the first two seasons, but quit watching in disgust after the female teams did poorly and the young frat-boy white guys won both times. I couldn't even bring myself to watch one single episode of TAR3.

I decided to give it another chance this season, despite the fact that there are 5! all male teams and only 2 female teams, one of which (as usual) was clearly never going to win. After seeing Tian and Jaree bite it last night, while Dave and Jeff coast to first place, I am writing TAR off for good.

Maybe the show isn't biased against women or people of color. Perhaps if the producers included more of both, they would do better. I don't know. But I do know that if a young, white guy always won Survivor, it would lose viewers. Of the 10 players left, 8 are young white guys, and that just doesn't work for me.


"RE: Show is totally bogus"
Posted by ElroyJetson on 07-11-03 at 12:25 PM
I sense a pattern. Maybe young white guys simply rock?!

"RE: Show is totally bogus"
Posted by indian girl on 07-11-03 at 02:44 PM
Something interesting I found yesterday was when Tian/Jaree(not sure which one) had to do the bull event and it was clearly desgined for men because the model complained that her hands were too small to get around the reins. By the third attempt, one of the locals said in Malayalam(Kerala's national language) to one of the other locals operating the bull to "slow it down a little" and to "go carefully". I guess the girls had it a little easier by the third try because they were women. I rewound the tape a few times to make sure this was what was said.
"RE: Of bullocks & buttheads"
Posted by Swami on 07-12-03 at 11:46 PM
I too noticed one of the bull race people slow down the start for Tian & Jaree. I thought the starts in this race were quite uneven. I remember at least one of the men having a quite slow (& successful) start for his turn. Tian was mistaken to begin by lying flat on the ground. People who did best stayed on their knees & were jerked to the ground--looks more brutal but is actually less force exerted on your hands since your body is partially in motion before your hands must bear your full body weight. (This is why train cars start one by one with a jerk.)

Speaking of trains, I thought riding the Bombay trains was a bit much to ask. There is groping, and then there is groping! Especially during rush times, there are guys on those trains who go way over the line. I'm not talking about a casual pinch & fondle. I'm talking serious, hurtful fingering into your crotch; putting/trying to put hands inside your clothing. It is repulsive for the targeted woman. Women alone, women who are not dressed conservatively & foreign women can be particular targets. Millions of decent men ride those trains every day; a small number are very nasty opportunists. A member of this latter group will target you on the platform & wind up right by you in the car. TAR should have protected the women somehow.

Sorry to join this conversation late, but I have been out of town & just watched my tapes.


Would not ride a Bombay train at rush hour for love or money. Never again!

"RE: Of bullocks & buttheads"
Posted by Chrissy gal on 07-14-03 at 06:16 PM
>>Would not ride a Bombay train at rush hour for love or money. Never again!<<

I don't think I would want to ride the train in Bombay at any time of the day or night. The men who groped the TAR contestants knew that they were being filmed, and didn't care. It seems to me that it had to be even worse for you since you didn't have a camera crew following you around.

That being said, I must include that I wouldn't want to ride any public transit in any big city during rush hour. We made the mistake of arriving at a Paris train station during rush hour, and it was a terrible experience (no groping, but pushing and shoving like I couldn't believe).

"RE: Show is totally bogus"
Posted by cyclehausen on 07-11-03 at 03:19 PM
LAST EDITED ON 07-11-03 AT 03:21 PM (EST)

T/J lost because Jaree screamed "I wanna do the elephant" and did not show Tian the clue. After Tian, already on the elephant, read the clue, they had to get down and get the cargo. THen Chillie passed them. Yes, they lost time in the mud, but their demise was ultimately their doing.

As a side note, on their Early Show Interview they mention that they were not PERMITTED to ride in the ladies-only car because of the male crew. That sucks!!


"I am an unlimited person, sadly living in a limited world."-Harlan Ellison
Missing you ain't easy.

"RE: Show is totally bogus"
Posted by SteffiGurl on 07-13-03 at 12:05 PM
Both female teams lost based on their own mistakes having little to do with their gender or what country they were in.

Monica/Sheree decided to wander the streets of India and get lost, and then washed every piece of laundry and still didn't find the clue. It seemed they strolled their way into their final leg.

Tian/Jaree's mistakes were basically forgetting to pick up the coir on their elephant trek, and Tian's trouble with the roadblock, which I admit, may be a gender issue as Tian stated.

However, I am regretting the possibilty that David/Jeff seems destined to win this thing, and the problem is mainly that they should have an even number of teams beased on gender.

Like this:
4 male teams
4 female teams
4 coed teams

or:

3 male teams
3 female teams
6 coed teams

This way, the sexes will be balanced. If they stick to a format like this one, it will be easier to see if male couples are more adept to the race. Otherwise, it seems more like a male team will win if the ratio of male to female is 5:2! I mean geez, 5 male teams? It's so obvious one of the male teams is likely to win. If there is a TAR5, they had better even out the ratio already, and put back the second African American team, and maybe even cast an Asian already. Who are these casting directors, and why don't they understand diversity? Maybe the teams have sponsors, and whichever sponsor puts more money into the show, gets their team on. Jon/Al must be sponsored by Ringling Brothers. So they take a few sponsored teams, and a few "normal" teams of "actual" people to keep us couch potatoes interested.

"RE: Show is totally bogus"
Posted by ALT on 07-14-03 at 04:11 AM
You serious? They have contemplated going to the ladies only car only to be thrown out cos of the male crew? Wonder if the producers have thought of why they need a ladies only car in the first place.

Still think it is simply unfair to allow the ladies to be groped, and the argument that we should accept it cos it is part and parcel of life and the game or simply one has a more liberal culture so what the big deal, doesn't really sit well with me.

"RE: Is it fair to female contestants in this leg of the race?"
Posted by ShowMeTheWinner on 07-14-03 at 01:36 PM
I gotta say that I had initially disagreed with ALT's post and agreed with many posters' arguments early on. However, I totally changed my mind after hearing T/J's interview from the Early Show about how they couldn't get on the women's train because of the male cameramen. The producers got to know that there is a very high possibility that the women might have gotten molested if they had taken the male train compartments. It's such a horrible thing that the producers let this situation happen to the female contestants for the sake of ratings and drama.

If contestants refused to go up that train cos it will lead to outrage of their modesty, is it wrong? Who wants to be groped and pinched? Isn't that a threat to their personal safety?
I agree with your statement. I don't think anyone should be put in the position where they have to compromise themselves that way to win a gameshow on television.

And I gotta agree with toddE about how I'd stop watching the show if the same type of people keep winning it. I'd also made a similar comment earlier about how the producers should balance the show a little more by casting an equal number of all-female teams and all-male teams. Given that the show is usually biased towards physically strong teams, it's no surprise that the all-male teams survived much longer than the all-female teams. And the producers are making the odds much worse for the women by casting so many all-male teams and so few all-female teams this season. To think I was so happy when I heard the rumor that the Supremes were going to win TAR4! HAH... How naive of me. If there were any consolation, at least the producers did cast pretty capable women for the all-female teams this time round. I guess they know by now that there's no way the Gutsy Grannies are ever gonna win even if they were given a week of headstart.

Other than balancing the number of contestants, the producers could also have more mental challenges to make it fairer for both genders. I was pretty happy when they had the mask challenge and tricky clues in the beginning but I guess they went back to the previous format of having very tough physical legs judging from this episode (#7) and the previews for the next episode.

PS: Somebody get Tian and Jaree to come out from lurking! I know they are reading this when Jaree made the comment about the women train compartments!



Kathy O'Brien... The Sole Survivor! (I'd rather be delusional)
Hail the purple rock! Hallelujah..... Oh glory!

"RE: Is it fair to female contestants in this leg of the race?"
Posted by cyclehausen on 07-15-03 at 06:27 AM
Tian, and many other TAR contestants, post regularly on FRTV.

"I am an unlimited person, sadly living in a limited world."-Harlan Ellison

"RE: Is it fair to female contestants in this leg of the race?"
Posted by ShowMeTheWinner on 07-15-03 at 10:00 PM
LAST EDITED ON 07-15-03 AT 10:15 PM (EST)

Thanks for the tip, cycle. What is the URL of that website? I went to FRTV.com but I didn't get anything and I didn't get any correct matches when I went to Google either. Which other contestants post there and what are their usernames? What's up with the lack of contestants posting on this great message board? Thanks in advance for your reply.



Kathy O'Brien... The Sole Survivor! (I'd rather be delusional)
Hail the purple rock! Hallelujah..... Oh glory!

"RE: Is it fair to female contestants in this leg of the race?"
Posted by cyclehausen on 07-16-03 at 00:17 AM

fansofrealitytv.com


"I am an unlimited person, sadly living in a limited world."-Harlan Ellison