One spoiler, straight from the mouth of MB, regarding what happens in a tie vote: 'If they can't democraticaly decide on one person, there is whole 'nother giant (his emphasis) consequence for them.'

This is a very interesting statement. I can think of several things he can't do. He can't take away food or any current fires, since he did not give them in the first place. He could take away their knives and/or cooking pots & magnifying glass (source of fire). He could make them remain at TC without food/water/sleep until they can agree on someone. What else? Make them draw straws, after a long drawn out TC fight? How about, since he has to move one tribe anyway due to legalities--he makes their consequence that they have to move immediately to a new valley, with only the bikinis on their backs & no other supplies? Then another TC the next day where they must vote someone out or face further consequences. Now that is a giant consequence!

Anyone else have thoughts on this? It certainly looks like we may have a real rock 'n' roll TC at some point.

Other things he said: TC fires are fake at all times. They showed the fire ring with a bunch of gas cylindars hiding underneath. The temple & artwork are designed to look like native culture 1000 years ago. He loves the cast. He was specifically asked about the switch. Gave a nice double talk/no info answer, but then said he thinks program works best when everyone is off balance all the time.

S4 sounds way fun, and very hard to spoil.
Swami

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You don't suppose they'd both have to go, do you? I wonder if it stipulates specifically in the rules that only 1 person will be voted out at TC. Of course if that ever happened, they'd lose an episode and it would screw up the whole 39 days thing.

Fester

Good thoughts, but you're forgetting that every Survivor is supposed to be packed and ready to go at TC. So if they were forced to go to another camp they would be missing supplies, but not extra clothing and luxury items.

Granted it would suck to not have pots, pans, etc but they would have MOST of what they started with.

As always, in evil, J9

They are supposed to bring all their stuff, but not everyone does. I remember reading that Rich on S1 and Keith on S2 did not bring their things to TC and it offended several other survivors who took it as being arrogant and smug.

Welcome aboard j9!

I thought the same thing festerfan1 thought. May be they would send them both away. This would be a big incentive to change their vote, if they new that a tie would result in the loss of two team mates. It could put them at a real disadvantage in the next WC or IC. It would screw up the number of days thing, but MB could just cut in another recrap show.

I don't understand the fake tribal fires. What is that all about. Is there a law against fires on this island? (How would they cook their wild chickens?).
S4 does sound fun...If the cast is better than S3 and they really keep them off balance it could be great!

The big fire they have at the Tribal Council site is fake, not the fires that the survivor's make for themselves in camp. I don't quite understand why the two fires are different from a liability point of view, but then I'm not a lawyer.

And voting both off just doesn't make sense to me any way I look at it.

Swami

>I don't
>quite understand why the two
>fires are different from a
>liability point of view, but
>then I'm not a lawyer.

In US National Parks, it is possible to obtain a permit to make a campfire for cooking purposes. It is, however, illegal to make a campfire for entertainment purposes in a National Park.

This could be something along those lines. Trying to eliminate unnecessary pollution and preserve natural resources... or it could be something completely different.

I was heading out the door during this promo, but I got the impression that the artificial fire was simply to ensure ZERO chance of nasty surprises, à la Skoop's fall into the fire in S2. They even showed a clip of the idjut jumping into the water with his skin dangling, as an example of unforeseen dangers. MB also detailed that they fired the large rocks beforehand, to prevent any of them exploding as they heat. (I suspect it might be similar as in FL, where Scouts are taught to expect that 98% of rocks you might use around a campfire--which have a large sandstone content here--WILL explode when heated; that's why our BSA camps use big old cast-iron wheel rims for firerings--rocks are discouraged, if not forbidden.)

Of course the promotion for S3 declared THEY were the best group of Survivors yet--but when he said it this time, I actually got the feeling it was more than an act. . . He really did seem to believe they are a fun group to work with!

GT

LAST EDITED ON 02-28-02 AT 06:35 AM (EST)

I suspect a gas fire, as opposed to a wood-burning fire, is used to keep the smoke down so that the cameras are unaffected. TC wouldn't be as exciting if all you could see was smoke.

*** Contradictions don't exist. If you are faced with a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong. -- Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged

May be they would send them both away. This would be a big incentive to change their vote, if they new that a tie would result in the loss of two team mates.

Besides the things the others have said, this "solution" continues the problems. For example, let's say the Carl/Lindsey tie resulted in them both being booted. Then you would have had a 3-3 tie for the next TC. What are you going to do then? Boot another two out? Then the schedule problems REALLY come into play.

And I agree that this could all be MB crapola. Just how "giant" can it be, MB?

*** Contradictions don't exist. If you are faced with a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong. -- Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged

Actually, I'm betting that it is just a production issue. What do they do on rainy nights (which seems to happen often for TC) if all of the wood is wet or the fire keeps going out? Do you actually hire a crew to build and stoke the fire? What if the fire burns out during TC? What if there is any issues at all with the fire that detract from TC?

The gas fire makes perfect sense because it is totally manageable and takes a lot of things that a real, unpredictable fire might cause out of play. Ensuring a well-managed, esthetically pleasing Tribal Council.

I first thought about them going too, but surely that can't be it. The incentive would only work pre-merge. Imagine in S1 if Sue and Dicque were tied 2-2 after the first vote and Jiffy announced that if it remained deadlocked both would get voted out. How likely do you think Kelly and Rudy would be to change their votes?

I think more likely in the evil MB twist mode would be something along the lines of "OK since you can't agree, both of the people you've been voting for are now immune. Everybody revote." With no chance to consult, the consequences might be quite giant.

>I first thought about them going too, but surely that can't
>be it. The incentive would only work pre-merge. Imagine in
>S1 if Sue and Dicque were tied 2-2 after the first vote
>and Jiffy announced that if it remained deadlocked
>both would get voted out. How likely do you think
>Kelly and Rudy would be to change their votes?

The smart Survivor contestant would say "ok, ciao" if they were in a position to be able to take out TWO at once -- after all, the objective is to be the last one there for a million. You know Kelly wouldn't hesitate in a heartbeat to take out two.

It'll never happen where two get taken out in case of a deadlock, so let's move on.

Wow! I sure hope you're right, as this would really spice things up. Imagine the shock on everyone's face the first time it comes into play!

>I first thought about them going
>too, but surely that can't
>be it. The incentive would
>only work pre-merge. Imagine in
>S1 if Sue and Dicque
>were tied 2-2 after the
>first vote and Jiffy announced
>that if it remained deadlocked
>both would get voted out.
>How likely do you think
>Kelly and Rudy would be
>to change their votes?

This is another wrinkle I hadn't thought of. But I think the primary problem is logistics if they sent 2 home at TC. It's just not workable.

>I think more likely in the
>evil MB twist mode would
>be something along the lines
>of "OK since you can't
>agree, both of the people
>you've been voting for are
>now immune. Everybody revote." With
>no chance to consult, the
>consequences might be quite giant.
>

I like your thinking, but it creates its own problem in that it's not a definitive solution. Theoretically, the votes could be tied until there was no one left to vote for. If you have 6 at TC and initially it is tied 3 for A and 3 for B, then A and B are off-limits. Re-vote sees 3 for C and 3 for D, etc. Even if you take A and B out of the equation and don't let them vote, you still have an even number of people and the same possibility for a tie.

I can't think of anything that is both a "huge consequence" and also good TV. Drawing straws or some other random method just seems like a copout to me, not to mention it wouldn't be very interesting. You could take away Reward Challenges, but what do you fill that time with? Remember this is a TV show first and foremost, so their not going to do anything that's going to take the excitement out of the show.

Maybe it's as simple as a roll-call vote where each member has to reveal who they voted for and why. Then you would have the members who were at risk lobby the individual members to get them to openly change their vote. Not very tidy, but it would be better TV than if they drew straws.

Fester

On Combat Missions, another MB produced show seen on USA network, the "Teams" have to vote a person out after losing a "mission". When the team can't decide democratically they move to a "choose swords" type of tie-breaker. The person who picks the red tipped sword is out!
This could be used in survivor as the new tie-breaker rule.
Of course some other variation, say, spears or oars or something. That would definately put survivors on alert to possible ties and relying on prior votes to break them. It won't work that way anymore. Everyone is vulnerable if they choose to go into TC even voted.

Yes, drawing straws (or spears) makes the most sense to me. The precedent is already there and has been tested. It is simple, effective, and a "giant consequence" if one of the strongest members or a key alliance partner is the one to go in the process. It definately shakes things up and forces the tribe to be more decisive about the voting. I like it...

Eliminating both members involved in the tie would be a giant consequence, but it would also disrupt the 39 day calendar, so that is probably not going to happen.

In one of the interviews (can't remember where) JP? mentioned that the challenges were going to be much simpler..."like a coconut toss". The "simple" drawing of straws(or spears) seems to fit this S4 philosophy of "focusing on the relationships" rather than the challenges.

Krautboy

Maybe, if there is a tie and its not broken, the two who had the tie become immune, and the rest have to vote between who is left. Now those are some serious consequences!

Cowboyroo I think your correct. Only with more of a twist.

How about the two that are tied now have to vote 1 of the other 6 out of the tribe. Kinda like revenge for voting against them in the first place.

16 remaining 0 to go...

I like that too! Sure will be interesting

Maybe an idea like the entire tribe has to draw a name out of a hat or a Marquesa Island Basket or some container of a local tribe and the name that gets drawn has to go.

I think that the drawing sword idea is a little more dramatic and works better with the dramatic Tribal council music. I can see it now, the dramatic music playing as people pick swords and then see who has the shortest sword (or whatever they pick).

If any of these happen, would Jeff still say "The Tribe Has Spoken."? Surely they wouldn't get rid of that classic line? Maybe the outcome has to force a decision of some sort or that line would sound really dumb if you picked the shortest sword and that is how you lost.

Only 6more hours to go!!!
----GTmike

Whether your theories above are right or not, this does prove one fact.....there will be AT LEAST ONE TIE at tribal council this season.

LAST EDITED ON 02-27-02 AT 11:19 PM (EST)

Yes, or else why would MB have mentioned it at all, he wouldn't let us know there would be this big consequence in the event of a deadlock if we weren't going to see it in S4. It doesn't seem likely that it would be a potentially endless drawn-out affair such as revoting until the deadlock is broken, that wouldn't work for TV very well. Something like drawing swords does seem more likely (and I don't like it), where perhaps the consequence would be that they all have to draw swords, not just the ones caught in the tie. Or perhaps they all have to play trivial pursuit with the most wrong answers being the one who has to go.

"If all machines were to be annihilated at one moment, so that not a knife nor lever nor rag of clothing nor anything whatsoever were left to man but his bare body alone that he was born with, and if all knowledge of mechanical laws were taken from him so that he could make no more machines, and all machine-made food destroyed so that the race of man should be left as it were naked upon a desert island, we should become extinct in six weeks." (Samuel Butler, "Erewhon")

Remember, guys, that Burn-it is notorious for red herrings. Hell, S3 had more red herrings than an ocean full of blood! This whole deal could be, and probably is, just another Burn-it mindf--k.

>Something like drawing swords does seem more likely (and
>I don't like it), where perhaps the consequence would be
>that they all have to draw swords, not just the
>ones caught in the tie.

It'd be nice if they could use the swords on each other as if it's an old-fashioned Musketeer duel. Think of the TV ratings!

Why not send the two people in the tie over to the other tribe? (Pre Merge Of Course) Strength in numbers...

Hey there,

I haven't posted before, but I have an idea (unusual for me!)

What if there is a tie (pre-merge) and the other tribe is brought in to pick who gets voted off at TC?

Just a thought...

I've seen the thought I had sort of alluded to here, but not in any detail. So... here goes.

There are a few things that the survivors clearly value: food, water, shelter... and sleep. My thought is that the tribe would be forced to continue voting until a tie no longer existed. Obviously, if they cover this ad nauseum, it would make for terrible TV, but it could be shown very much like the later endurance challenges, with a clock superimposed over various jump-cuts.

Why would that be of giant consequence? Think back to S3 (I know, it's painful, but bear with me here). In the first tie between Lindsay and Carl, those votes were not likely to change for a looooong time. At what point does a member of the tribe (and it only takes one) decide that it'd be better to take the alliance hit and get the sleep necessary to be effective in the next day's challenge? Tough to say... I'm not sure who'd have broken first. Teresa? Little Kim? Dunno.

So let's take it a step further. Let the people tied keep voting, too. Don't limit the possible bootee to the people who were tied. Ah, now it's getting interesting. Further, let the tribal members have brief periods to talk amongst themselves and strategize. The possibility of Lindsay selling out one of her tribe-mates to save her own skin starts looking pretty good, no?

All right, there's my evil plan. Revote until there's no tie with everyone eligible for boot, and allow strategizing between votes.

Write hard and clear about what hurts. - Ernest Hemingway
Criminals From the Neck Up

i've always thought the best solution in case of a tie was a physical challenge of some sort. not some stupid trivia game.