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Original Message
"Clay was Robbed"
Posted by IslandFever on 05-22-03 at 00:07 AM
I can't believe I sat through two hours of that show. I could have been watching the Bachelor reunion. I've had it with AI. I will never watch AI again. Clay is so much more talented than Ruben. Ruben was off key all night last night. Clay deserved to win. The calling system stinks. Only one call per household should be allowed. Calls could not get through. I like Ruben, don't get me wrong. He has a great kind humble personality. But Clay has the better voice. He was robbed.
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Messages in this discussion
"RE: Clay was Robbed"
Posted by Schnookie Palookie on 05-22-03 at 01:07 AM
Ditto. I did, however, end up watching more of the Bachelor which turned out to suck almost as much as tonight's AI results.


"RE: Clay was Robbed"
Posted by katem on 05-22-03 at 01:14 AM
This is the understatement of the year. RUBEN SUCKS !!!!! AND HE EATS HIPPO !!!!!

The "Flying without wings" reminds me of Juanita singing that song about the children. YUK !!!!!


(c) 2002, 03 IceCat Originals, Inc. All rights reserved.

"AMERICA was Robbed"
Posted by TODDLJ on 05-22-03 at 02:01 AM
I am very depressed right now... but the reality is, Clay should be thrilled to do as well as he did....

Think of it this way:

Jammed phone lines meant that it was impossible to get an accurate count. Who knows how many millions of 'busy signal votes' were uncounted. Who know what effect counting those votes would have on the results. Who knows.

Considering this, and the small percentage difference between the two, the voting came down to what amounts to a statistical tie.

A tie is a huge victory for Clay.

Clay tied the person who has been touted as the obvious winner for the last several weeks. Clay tied the person who has been the focus of a careful media campaign to sway voters. Clay tied the person who the judges have blindly praised, week in and week out (ignoring performance and vocal flaws which seem obvious to even the most forgiving of viewers.) Clay tied the person who seemed above any mention of image issues (despite having a glaringly obvious physical health and image issue that Clive Davis himself mentioned when comparing Ruben to Luther Vandross.) In fact, Clay tied for first, despite the fact that Clay was roundly criticized for performance and image related issues each and every week, and dismissed weekly as unmarketable, un-'hip', and out of place in the competition.

Perhaps if ONE of the judges, ONCE would have said ONE negative thing about Ruben, EVER, I wouldn't be so bitter right now. On final two night, as his exhausted voice was clearly going out from under him, Ruben got the most praise he's ever received. Hell, last year when Kelly was hoarse, THE JUDGES MENTIONED IT. Sure, she won anyway, but it sure seemed more fair that both Justin and Kelly's faults were not left unmentioned.

The producers got what they wanted, plain and simple. But America didn't. All of this will be obvious when Clay's single outsells Ruben's by a landslide. That will be America's revenge against an obviously rigged voting result.

By the way,

I'm not sure I can pull together a final Gay Idol Journal right away. Too angry right now. Maybe this weekend I'll be more objective.

-Larry

"RE: AMERICA was Robbed"
Posted by smiley on 05-22-03 at 07:54 AM
I couldn't have said it better.

Another thing I was wondering about....on tuesday night Ryan quite clearly said at the end that the phone lines would be open for at LEAST 3 hours. What I want to know is when do they decide to close the phone lines? Are the votes counted after the lines are closed or is it an instant count as soon as the vote has been cast? Being that the votes were so close if the votes were instant this whole thing could have been rigged (OK I am not SAYING IT WAS...just a thought)

"I think you are dead on."
Posted by Femme on 05-22-03 at 11:10 AM
Clay tied the person who has been the focus of a careful media campaign to sway voters.

When I hear the judges praise some and then lightly critique others, my natural inclination is to think, "Why are they picking on So-and-so when he's so much better than the other guy?" This happened a lot at the end between Ruben and Clay.

Then I gave the judges the benefit of the doubt. I thought they were giving the Clay fans more motivation to call, and making the Ruben fans feel more secure. (This is precisely why I think they didn't bash Josh they night he finally got voted out.)

However, as they have been gearing up to this finale, the magazine articles that I have stumbled across really paint Ruben as the natural born winner. All the "stars" interviewed for these rags picked Ruben, and People latest dish even had a section where they explored how unjust it was that Ruben ended up in the bottom two. (Their spin was that the voting has to be unfair or rigged if someone so 'worthy of winning' ends up with so few votes.)

I think all this made people feel that Ruben was entitled to win. He wasn't. If he was up against anyone other than Kim Locke or Clay in the finals, then sure, he woudl probably be deserving. However, he was not better than Kim or Clay. His voice is tired and raspy and while he has a super personality and can hit some really unique notes, he's not the quality of singer that Clay (or even Kim) is. He did not grow at all as a performer in this contest, and in fact, his voice even got worse as the time wore on.

However, I'm not too terribly upset that he won and this is why. He will have to battle Clay on the charts, and when that happens, it will be revealed how much better Clay really is. He will be forced, also, to work under the tight thumb of 19 entertainment, while Clay will be afforded a bit more creative freedom from the media-megahouse. Clay will evolve and grow and outpace Ruben, and he will do so on his own merits. He will not have to be pimped the way Justin G. has been. He is going to succeed, and there will never be any question that he will owe it to his talent.

Don't be sad, Larry. It's a good thing. Really it is.

Femme

"All right Ramblers, let's get ramblin'."
"RE: AMERICA was Robbed"
Posted by dajaki on 05-22-03 at 11:39 AM
despite having a glaringly obvious physical health and image issue

Does anyone remember the guy last year who made it to Hollywood but didn't get into the top 30? He was heavy, but not Ruben heavy, and every judge ragged him for not looking like the American Idol. He ranted back and told Randy to go look in a mirror, or something to that effect. I wonder what he's thinking right now.

"RE: AMERICA was Robbed"
Posted by Femme on 05-22-03 at 12:18 PM
Probably something along the lines of "Huh?"

Femme

"All right Ramblers, let's get ramblin'."

"Larry I agree"
Posted by GeorgiaBelle on 05-22-03 at 03:12 AM
First Larry, thank you for the letter you sent me. I do appreciate it.

It made me sick Tuesday night. My boyfriend, his brother, my best friend and I were all calling. Suddenly it occurred to me, how many rolling lines did they have? Were they all operationally? Were the clogged lines messing with the computer programming? When I voiced this concern, my boyfriend said yeah, all that plays a part. He believes there were equal rolling lines. But that since it is computer driven there could be operational issues. Also the calls could overwhelm the programming. Then his cute little hiney got too technical for me and I lost his explanation. (he is a computer programmer.) So, in short he summed it up this way.....the vote will not be pure or accurate, but the numbers will look good.

There has to be a better way. Either the one vote per phone line rule or longer voting times.

It really is a shame that Clay lost. He had it all. All my friends that I run with on a daily base wanted to see Clay win. The public wants Clay. Someone will be smart enough to market him.



Georgia "The Vigilante" Belle

"RE: Larry I agree"
Posted by I_AM_HE on 05-22-03 at 03:05 PM
There has to be a better way. Either the one vote per phone line rule or longer voting times.

I've said before that I completely disagree that one vote per phoneline/person is a good idea for many reasons, but you may have come up with the only workable solution with the longer voting times! I like that idea Belle!
*thumbs up*

"Not hardly"
Posted by SurvivinDawg on 05-22-03 at 06:36 AM
Clay, who if I recall was a wildcard in the first place, will now be getting a big recording deal of his own, even if he didn't win the phone vote.

The good thing about AI is that there is definitely more than one winner!

So I'm not feeling too bad for Clay right now, and I hope both of them do very well in the future.




Contradictions don't exist. If you are faced with a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong. -- Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged

"Bursar's First Theorem on Reality Television"
Posted by Bursar on 05-22-03 at 07:37 AM
No one named Clay finishes first, ever.


You can pay me now, or you can pay me later.

"RE: Bursar's First Theorem on Reality Television"
Posted by dajaki on 05-22-03 at 11:41 AM
I'll pay you in laughter. Is it a continuation of your theorem that anyone named Clay must take second place?
"RE: Clay was Robbed"
Posted by PackMan on 05-22-03 at 08:15 AM
I said this in another thread, but I'll say it again here. Clay did not "lose" in this competition. For one thing the vote was basically a tie, especially considering the voting system, and the inability of all votes to be tabulated because of busy signals. And I understand there was a potential problem with the text messaging system, but I haven't been able to find anything in print.

That being said, I think the producers of AI realize they have two winners on their hands, and this is why they are releasing both Reuben's and Clay's singles in the same week. But they did need to declare a winner, or everyone would have been screaming about how a tie is like kissing your sister.

So Round 1 goes to Reuben. Round 2 will be held without the constraints of busy phone lines, and from what I was hearing on the radio this morning, we won't have to wait too long for their singles to be released. They were sayiong it will probably be a couple of weeks.

Regardless, I think this year's group of finalist was much better than Season 1, IMHO. I enjoyed the performances, and I will watch again when AI3 airs. But if Simon pulls out, I may change my mind.


If you don't have time to do it right the first time, when are you going to find time to do it again? - Anonymous

"RE: Clay was Robbed"
Posted by samboohoo on 05-22-03 at 09:12 AM
Maybe they added Ruben's phone talley, the number of times Randy said "Dawg" and the number of times Paula said "vulnerable" and that's what gave Ruben the edge over Clay.

Simon said last night that America got it right. I totally disagreed with that until this morning when I saw Ruben's mama on the Today Show. The queen vote organizer herself said that she voted 200 times for Ruben Tuesday night herself. So maybe America did get it right, but Ruben's family got him the win.

"RE: Clay was Robbed"
Posted by SurvivinDawg on 05-22-03 at 09:33 AM
the number of times Randy said "Dawg"

Nothing wrong with THAT!



Contradictions don't exist. If you are faced with a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong. -- Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged

"RE: Clay was Robbed"
Posted by weltek on 05-22-03 at 09:31 AM
Something that may have affected undecided voters:
Kelly Clarkson's manager said earlier this week that he thought Reuben was more marketable and was obviously against Clay winning. If people saw/heard this, they may have thought twice about who they were voting for. I know I thought for a second.


-still thinks Clay is better

"RE: Clay was Robbed"
Posted by sittem on 05-22-03 at 10:34 AM
Wow - there's almost as much bitterness here as there was after the Jenna win. IMHO, Jenna was MUCH worse. Of course, I never watched this show for more than 5 minutes - only while I was lining up the taping for 24 each week. And I didn't see a second of it last night.

As Dawg said, both of these guys are winners - they'll both do well and it won't matter a bit in a year who "won" - unless there is some proveable irregularity in the voting and then the winner could end up suffering. In the long run it's going to be how the public accepts them in their ongoing career. They both seemed genuine in the few minutes I saw them and I wish them both well. From the little I've seen this is more of a feel good story all around.

2002 IceCat Originals, Inc. All rights reserved.

"RE: Clay was Robbed"
Posted by Femme on 05-22-03 at 11:17 AM
IMHO, Jenna was MUCH worse.

I would agree with that. It's not that Ruben didn't deserve to win; he did. Just not against Clay (or even Kim Locke).

He's a fine singer, and both will do well (so too will Kim Locke, I hope). I think the reason we are upset is more that it's so blatantly obvious who really deserved to win. Yes, they are both fine singers, but one is technically better, more pleasant to listen to, less boring, more adapatble to change, open to critique, willing to grow and evolve, and just a super guy with a super personality.

Femme

"All right Ramblers, let's get ramblin'."

"RE: Clay was Robbed"
Posted by mtopaz on 05-22-03 at 02:02 PM
I only watched the finale shows this week, so all I saw were Ruben and Clay competing against each other. I do think Clay is a better singer, more range, more depth, and is an accomplished performer (Mr. Personality!). To top it off, he was extremely gracious in accepting the loss to Ruben. Ruben in turn seems to be an very likeable and humble guy, doesn't seem to talk much (maybe he's more comfortable singing than talking), but his voice was obviously wavering last night. I felt Clay was the better performer overall.

However, Clay will do well no matter what. He's obviously built up a tremendous fan base already, and I think he'll succeed in whatever he endeavors to do.

"Prove It To Me."
Posted by survivorscott on 05-22-03 at 10:36 AM
For everyone who claimed votes didn't count for Clay because of busy phone lines. I can name just as many more who can claim their votes for Ruben didn't count for the same reason. Both gentlemen will get contracts, they each like each other so their is no ill will. You guys were more forgiving when someone who didn't deserve to win like Jenna won. Than a very talented person like Ruben who did.

"You lost this time kid. Doesn't mean you have to like it"
Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade

Come in a stranger,leave a little stranger

"RE: Clay was Robbed"
Posted by Schnookie Palookie on 05-22-03 at 10:55 AM
Everyone is entitled to their opinion.


"RE: Clay was Robbed"
Posted by SkyRaider on 05-22-03 at 11:57 AM

Yes, yes! You're all right! It was all a government conspiracy, Clay really didn't have Weapons of Mass Destruction ready to detonate if he didn't win.

And yes! Ruben did have a great advantage going into the voting. They even named a sandwich after him! OMG!!

I personally voted for Ruben 130,001 times because I live in the Los Angeles area and it's getting hot out here. I was afraid that if Ruben lost, we'd have a Rodney King Riot incident all over again and my favorite taco stand would be torched again.

Hey, that makes about as much sense as the other theories that have been on this mass of sour grapes.

Like you all didn't vote for Claymore (what a bomb) fifty times?

Get over it.

"RE: Clay was Robbed"
Posted by TODDLJ on 05-22-03 at 12:34 PM
Wow, Skyraider, harsh.

Maybe you are reading a different thread than I am, but I didn't see any crazy conspiracy theories here. Based on the system Fox has, Ruben won, I think we all agree with that.

Any statistician will tell you, though, that in a contest where tens of millions of votes are counted and less than 1% divides the candidates, and where due to crowded phone lines it is imposssible to know whose votes were counted and whose turned away, it came down to a statistical tie.

And the judges (who obviously influence the voters) have been biased in favor of Ruben from day one, in a absolutely blatant way. I think even the biggest Ruben fan in the world would agree that the judges have never said one bad thing about him.

If this is 'sour grapes,' to you, then so be it. To me it's just cold hard facts.

"RE: Clay was Robbed"
Posted by SkyRaider on 05-22-03 at 03:26 PM
++Any statistician will tell you, though, that in a contest where
tens of millions of votes are counted and less than 1% divides
the candidates, and where due to crowded phone lines it is
imposssible to know whose votes were counted and whose
turned away, it came down to a statistical tie.++

Someone had to win otherwise it would have been like kissing a sister to those 29 million or so people who have nothing better to do than tune in to see if Mr. Dull or Mr. Duller won the damned thing.

Perhpas the Supreme Court should decide the winner? Naw, they don't have too good a track record in figuring those things out.

My prediction: In six months, Ruben will only be seen on those "Sweating to the Oldies" commercials with Richard Simmons cheering him on and Clay will be doing dinner theater in Hoboken, New Jersey being politely applauded by a few guys drinking daquris with their sweaters draped carefully over their shoulders.

"RE: Clay was Robbed"
Posted by TeamJoisey on 05-24-03 at 01:05 AM
Clay will be
>doing dinner theater in Hoboken,
>New Jersey being politely applauded
>by a few guys drinking
>daquris with their sweaters draped
>carefully over their shoulders.
>
Hey!! I'm there!

And don't dis Hoboken. Sinatra turned out to be pretty good.



These reality show contestants need a reality check!

"RE: Clay was Robbed"
Posted by managerr on 05-22-03 at 01:10 PM
I've been soooo lucky with my reality shows lately. All the people I've been cheering for have all been winning. (Kelly C, Flo/Zach, Jenna) The streak is over for me with this Ruben win.

I'm not overly upset. My only concern is that 19E will now not let Clay get more popular than Ruben, and in essence handicap him. The Billboard charts factor in airplay and all 19E has to do is make sure that Clay's singles receive nowhere near as much airplay as Ruben does. Even Ruben winning last night hasn't been enough to dethrone Clay as #1 on Amazon. (So far anyway)

But when you factor in airplay, Ruben will be higher on the charts than Clay.

"Proof will be in Record Sales"
Posted by CSHS79 on 05-22-03 at 01:14 PM
From what I heard,and no suprise to me,advanced sales of their cds has Clay outselling Rueben 2-1. Pretty soon it will be Clay topping the charts while he appears on Broadway or doing voices for the latest Disney animated movie.Meanwhile Rueben will be back in Alabama singing in his church choir with most of America going Rueben who? at the mention of his name.
"RE: Proof will be in Record Sales"
Posted by tanyafrommd on 05-22-03 at 05:07 PM
>Meanwhile Rueben
>will be back in Alabama
>singing in his church choir
>with most of America going
>Rueben who? at the mention
>of his name.

lmao....yeah right!!!!!!!!

i haven't seen this much outrage since.....dare i say it...

O.J.

Get over it......America has spoken!!!!! If you were that concerned...you should have voted more often.... you should have used text messaging... you should have asked all of your friends to vote.....and you should STFU...because it's over and AMERICA CHOSE TALENT OVER IMAGE...AND THE BEST MAN WON!

And since when did Amazon.com become Billboard top 20?

"RE: Proof will be in Record Sales"
Posted by dangerkitty on 05-22-03 at 05:20 PM
and you should STFU...

Can you read? I refer you to the top of this board: "If you disagree with something I write, tell me so, argue with me, correct me--but don't tell me to shut up. That's not the American way."





"RE: Proof will be in Record Sales"
Posted by SurvivorBlows on 05-22-03 at 06:56 PM
You were already warned yesterday Tanya, now it's time to say goodbye... c-ya.

-SB

"RE: Clay was Robbed"
Posted by Bebo on 05-22-03 at 02:27 PM
Frankly, the smartest thing I think they could do is keep them together.

- Ruben is a man of few words. When he's clowning around with Clay, he shows more of his personality. And I wish he'd keep showing more, because he is such a nice guy.

- They appeal to different audiences. Why just go after one segment or the other when you can have both?

Bebo, Mistress of the Painfully Obvious and your American Idol PTTE co-champ

"RE: Clay was Robbed"
Posted by Devious Weasel on 05-22-03 at 02:42 PM
Keeping them together is a great idea. They make a nice combo.

"RE: Clay was Robbed"
Posted by SkyRaider on 05-22-03 at 03:32 PM
"- Ruben is a man of few words. When he's clowning around
with Clay, he shows more of his personality. And I wish he'd
keep showing more, because he is such a nice guy."

Yeah, I was hoping that they'd show Clay going into the fridge and accidentally picking up a leftover part of a sandwich so the nice guy could knock him out like he did his own brother.

"RE: Clay was Robbed"
Posted by Spidey on 05-22-03 at 02:31 PM
Personally, I think Clay was blessed to lose last night. This way he doesn't have to release that dog-awful single. Great singer, crappy song.

I just knew Clay wasn't going to win. No one I root for EVER wins a reality show.



"Things that make you go Hmmm"
Posted by Devious Weasel on 05-22-03 at 02:47 PM
http://www.drudgereport.com/idol1.htm

"RE: Clay was Robbed"
Posted by carencey on 05-22-03 at 05:08 PM
Does anyone know how phone lines are allotted from area to area? By size of phone network, population, etc? Clay's line was busy almost constantly in my area, no clue about Ruben's. One easy way that the producers could have manipulated things would have been to make more phone lines available in Alabama than in North Carolina. I've got no precise reason to think that they did that except that Ruben's mom voted for him 200 times, and I could only get through around 20 times for Clay calling for about 2 and a half hours total (in MD). Her total's only achievable if it was done via text messaging, or if there were a heck of a lot more lines available in her area than in mine. i suppose it's possible that they anticipated higher calling rates in Raleigh and Birmingham but I haven't seen anyone from Raleigh post that sort of total on Clay's behalf.
"RE: Clay was Robbed"
Posted by TODDLJ on 05-22-03 at 06:17 PM
Everyone I've spoken to in Los Angeles has said that lines were hopelessly tied up for both candidates for the entire three hours. I voted nonstop, with no breaks, and got through maybe 30 times total for Clay. I've heard from San Francisco friends who actually got 'out of service' messages for about the first hour of the time, because apparently lines were down completely, no calls getting through.

Some (less crowded? more rural?) areas seemed to have a much better time of it.

Anyway, There is simply no way to get a fair result from any of this. Ruben won, by Fox estimates, but it was completely by luck, as it is impossible to know who's votes were shut out. A coin flip would have given you just as fair of a result.

"RE: Clay was Robbed"
Posted by carencey on 05-23-03 at 04:39 PM
Oh well. Saw Ruben on the Tonight Show, and no matter how ticked I may be at the judges and the voting system, I just couldn't be mad at Ruben, because he seems like such a nice guy.

I suppose Fox COULD manipulate the outcome by messing with the phone line 'demographics', but I guess there's no evidence to say that they actually DID. I'm just amazed that anyone could get through 200 times for Ruben in Birmingham, where one would at least expect his line to be jammed full.

"RE: Clay was Robbed"
Posted by CLAYAIKENLOVER on 05-24-03 at 08:42 PM
>I can't believe I sat through
>two hours of that show.
>I could have been watching
>the Bachelor reunion. I've had
>it with AI. I will
>never watch AI again. Clay
>is so much more talented
>than Ruben. Ruben was off
>key all night last night.
>Clay deserved to win. The
>calling system stinks. Only one
>call per household should be
>allowed. Calls could not get
>through. I like Ruben, don't
>get me wrong. He has
>a great kind humble personality.
>But Clay has the better
>voice. He was robbed.

I TOTALLY AGREE WITH EVERYTHING YOU SAID 100% ABSOLUTELY CLAY WAS ROBBED, THE SHOW WAS FIXED, I HONESTLY BELIEVE THAT CLAY TRULY DID GET MORE VOTES, BUT THE SHOWS PRODUCERS SET IT UP SO THAT RUBEN WON B/C THEY ALL THOUGHT HE WAS MORE MARKETABLE AND PROMOTABLE AND CRAP, WHICH HE ISNT. CLAY IS THE BETTER SINGER W/O A DOUBT. NOONE ON THAT SHOW COULD HAVE EVEN HOPE TO HAVE COME EVEN A LITTTTTLE CLOSE TO CLAYS TALENT . I WAS SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO P****D WHEN RUBEN WON, BUT WHO CARES B/C CLAY WILL PROVE HE IS THE TRUE AMERICAN IDOL WHEN HE OUTSELSS RUBEN BY MILLLLLLLLIONS OF HIS ALBUMS. DONT WORRY CLAY YOU ARE THE TRUE AMERICAN IDOL AND EVERYONE KNOWS IT!!!!!!!!!!!


I LOVE MICHAEL JACKSON AND CLAY AIKEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THE TWO HOTTEST, SEXIEST, AND MOST TALENTED MEN ALIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OUR TRUE AMERICAN IDOLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!