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Forum: DCForumID48
Thread Number: 219
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Original Message
"Everyone Please Read"
Posted by Breezy on 09-04-03 at 03:50 PM
This is from the rules for the realitytvworld boards....


IV. AVOID DUPLICATE POSTS
Do not post the same discussion more than once on a discussion forum or on multiple forums. Weeding through duplicate discussions can be frustrating and annoying for other members, especially for those whose time and energy is limited. Duplicate discussions will be deleted. Reposting the same message repeatedly will be interpreted as SPAM.

We have tons of new posts about the same stuff, there is now almost two pages from one night of an awful show. Even though what you want to see might not fit exactly under an old topic if it's about the same person or clique or just general rants keep them all together please. Thankyou.



*Breezy ... keeping OT satisfied since 2003*


Table of contents
Messages in this discussion
"RE: Everyone Please Read"
Posted by thndrkttn on 09-04-03 at 03:57 PM
My thoughts exactly.

Breezy, you are my new hero.

"Thanks Breezy"
Posted by CantStandToLook on 09-04-03 at 04:15 PM
I have mentioned this in several threads as they just kept popping up over and over again. I have never seen so many newbies all jumping up to post their own thread on something someone else has just said. (and I still consider myself a newbie).

I'm no Shakes but I think he said it best when I first started coming to the boards. "lurk more, post less" at least until you understand how it works.

"RE: Everyone Please Read"
Posted by sbeck on 09-04-03 at 04:17 PM
Thank you! I couldn't even keep up with all the traffic because of all the "new" threads.
"RE: Everyone Please Read"
Posted by tabbyjg28 on 09-11-03 at 05:53 PM
Your saying that is just the same as feeling sorry for Amy and her originals. Some people did catch the later shows but are hooked now and know what we're talking about.
"RE: Everyone Please Read"
Posted by Chrissy gal on 09-11-03 at 06:19 PM
Nobody is saying that the new people don't know what they are talking about. We really like new people to come and post on the boards. It brings new thoughts, and usually new things to laugh about. We are hooked too, that is why we are here.

The whole point here is just to ask people to not start another new thread about something that is being discussed in an existing thread.

"Welcome to Survivor Blows. Please only start a new thread if there is not an existing thread discussing the topic you want to discuss. Thank you"

And we really do mean WELCOME!!!

Chrissy gal

"Never underestimate the potential psychosis of a reality show contestant." managerr

"RE: Everyone Please Read"
Posted by tabbyjg28 on 09-11-03 at 06:27 PM
I understand what you're saying and this is just my first online experience w/ a reality show, which I just happen to be truly addicted to. I know several others who feel the way I do but I'm not sure if I want them to join up because of this. But thank you for your response, you were very kind w/ your words.
"RE: Everyone Please Read"
Posted by Chrissy gal on 09-11-03 at 06:34 PM
When I first joined the online Reality TV community I went around posting spoilers without knowing that it was a REALLY bad thing to do. Some people were nice and patient and others were FURIOUS! I lived through it and now I look forward to visiting every day.

This is a great place to discuss things, but it is always a good idea to understand the "rules of the game" if you know what I mean.

Chrissy gal

"Never underestimate the potential psychosis of a reality show contestant." managerr

"Assessment & Suggestions"
Posted by Angelfood on 09-12-03 at 12:25 PM
Hello. I am somewhat newbie, but have done a couple other bds.
My opinions on this:
I was made to feel welcome here just recently (esp. chrissy gal) and I love the conversations and setup of this bd. I am not trying to impose changes here, just some suggestions and observations that I hope can help a little. Even I agree that it gets frustrating.

1. It seems to me (during the last few weeks), that SOME newbies (usually 1st posting) jump right in and start 3 threads, mostly old topics, so Apparently, they have not bothered to read anything before posting. It seems like a mad rush to be heard and have people respond to what they are saying (Listen to me! Listen to me!), but the hypocrisy is that THEY have not heard anyone else yet and then get disappointed that no one is paying attention to them. No wonder this is VERY ANNOYING to the group (even me!). It's inconsiderate. HOW can one not notice the msg on the 1st page that says "EVERYONE PLEASE READ"? I did! But apparently people still aren't noticing this enough. So, it seems these are the main offenders. But there's also new threads that Are new topics. Solutions: 1. no one replies or 2. we can (and have)take turns nicely welcoming them, but suggesting they read the rules to get more responses. You could even start a "form letter" for this to take up less time.
2. I think that if poster could make some of their thread subject lines a little more generalized, it would be more obvious to newbies. This becomes more of a problem when one topic turns into another farther down the thread and the subject lines are not changed accordingly. I read 2 threads recently that both morphed into "voting strategy" near the bottoms, but no one used that term. (Breezy and some others already do this). I didn't know where to post. Lahela mentions something similar in her .02 msg on this thread.
3. I like infinite's suggestion for folders. I suggested that too but was told the program couldn't technically do that. It's too bad that it's not possible to also post another "Please note" at the top with the Dupl.Thread rules.

Angelfood

"RE: Assessment & Suggestions"
Posted by lipztik on 09-13-03 at 11:00 AM
I am a newbie, too ! I just started reading the posts last night and got excited, so I made a comment on one of the posts.

Now, reading these posts about the rules made it easier for me to understand this site. To: Sleeve, well said, you were just as calm as Dave (like ugibugi said,lol) in every comments that you made, not that it matters, you earned my respect. Like I said, I am new here, if there is a trick or some kind of voodoo that I need to learn to get used to this site, please let me know. I really like this site, I was even more excited reading more comments this morning (I think I need a life, lol).

Thx everyone

"RE: Everyone Please Read"
Posted by LadyT on 09-11-03 at 06:48 PM
Welcome to the boards.

Duplicate posts are annoying yes. I think everyone can agree on that. It's tough when the whole front page is filled by "I love Amy and Zack" threads with no posts on them. It's better to have one with several responses to it. If you see something that hasn't been posted after you have read a little bit back, feel free to post it! But for every person who hasn't posted here before, it's best to read a little first, then post. Everyone's opinions are always welcome. (Even if you like Amy )


"I.Heart.Breezy"
Posted by Schnookie Palookie on 09-04-03 at 04:19 PM
You need to modify your sig-pic line

*Breezy ... keeping SB satisfied and tidy since 2003*



"RE: Everyone Please Read"
Posted by Scarberian on 09-04-03 at 04:23 PM
Thanks Breezy!

Lurk more, post less is great advice for new members.

I lurked for more than a year and a half before I decided to post and saved myself from a flaming by Shakes in the process...

I wonder what his take is on the drama of the past two episodes?!

"RE: Everyone Please Read"
Posted by Lahela on 09-04-03 at 04:36 PM
I myself am a newbie and I didn't lurk at all because i've been on message boards before and know that repeated topics is a huge annoyance (my biggest pet peeve on message boards). I hope that I wasn't one of the offenders. I have only made 1 topic of my own (Kristin on Local News) because I hadn't seen anything like that posted yet and I thought it was something completely different than what had been posted in all other topics.

But anyway..thanks for posting this. On one of the MB's I am on I pretty much am the one that goes around making sure people don't repost the same things and remind folks to check the threads before posting to make sure you don't repost the same info. I appreciate you taking the time to point this out since it's obviously becoming a problem with new members who may not be used to the way message boards work. Thanks again!

"RE: Everyone Please Read"
Posted by Breezy on 09-04-03 at 04:51 PM
I hadn't noticed that you did and thankyou for posting the Kirsten interview. I really didn't post this to point fingers, I'm just trying to get some of the newbies to realize there is a better way to post, it makes things easier to read and respond in.


*Breezy ... keeping OT satisfied since 2003*


"RE: Everyone Please Read"
Posted by CantStandToLook on 09-04-03 at 04:53 PM
It'd be nice if we could get a moderator in here to lock some of the duplicate threads. I was going nuts this morning trying to keep up with posts and reposts and posts that were in every thread that were exactly the same.
"Hi!"
Posted by AyaK on 09-05-03 at 04:45 PM
I locked two duplicate Dave threads. Which are the other duplicates?
"Thanks to the moderators"
Posted by CantStandToLook on 09-07-03 at 11:09 AM
I for one would like to thank the moderators for finally stepping in and taking some action regarding all the duplicate posting that was occurring here. I think it's in part a testament to how awful this show became in just a single week but in the span of 12 hours after the airing of wednesdays shows, so many posts appeared mostly duplicates that new posts were being bumped off the front page before people even had a chance to see them and respond.

I agree with just about all the opinions that I have seen but like the moderators, I think it was simply impossible to stay in any conversation when there were five or six more about the same exact thing popping up within minutes of one another.

So again..instead of complaining about locked threads, I just want to say Thank You for bringing back some of the fun to this board.

P.S. I AM one of those people that read back two or three pages cause I like to hear everyones opinion. I have to do it less when people respect the rules of the site.

My nickel.

"RE: Everyone Please Read"
Posted by Majic Mitch on 09-04-03 at 05:19 PM
LAST EDITED ON 09-04-03 AT 05:20 PM (EST)

Thanks for posting a reminder Breezy! I'm going nuts trying to follow all the repeats. What's worse, is I can make a comment or enhancement, with additional info, to an existing comment, then someone will just steal what I posted and make it their own new topic. It's ridiculous.

The same thing is occuring on the Other Reality TV board, there are probably a good 20 new posts about 'Boy meets Boy' saying the same stuff over and over, and yet, for one continuous thread for, 'The Family', 'Race to the Alter', etc. I'll give it a few minutes now before I go to the other board to see if someone posted a 'No Duplicate Posts' reminder.

Thanks for letting me rant.

"RE: Everyone Please Read"
Posted by Drive My Car on 09-04-03 at 10:19 PM
Bump
"RE: Everyone Please Read"
Posted by Breezy on 09-05-03 at 07:38 AM
Another bump....Thanks Buggy.


*Breezy ... keeping OT satisfied since 2003*


"RE: Everyone Please Read"
Posted by Majic Mitch on 09-05-03 at 07:39 AM
I'm Bumping Again, Stop the Insanity
"RE: Everyone Please Read"
Posted by CantStandToLook on 09-05-03 at 11:25 AM
my turn to bump...

It's getting REALLY ridicolous now. People are taking someones comment or making the same comment from another thread but posting as a new thread. I know we are all DAW's in our own right...but please..it just makes no sense to have to sort through all these repeat threads that are saying the same thing over and over again but just with different wording.

Again borrowing from a well known screen name: Make it Stop!

"RE: Everyone Please Read"
Posted by Scarberian on 09-05-03 at 02:22 PM
I am hoping that new members will take the time to read this if it stays close to the top.

Bump!

"RE: Everyone Please Read"
Posted by Lahela on 09-05-03 at 02:46 PM
just a little shameless bump!
"RE: Everyone Please Read"
Posted by lroy on 09-06-03 at 01:25 AM
I would like to take this opportunity to BUMP!!

lroy

"RE: Everyone Please Read"
Posted by Chrissy gal on 09-06-03 at 03:17 AM
Bumpity Bump!!

Chrissy gal

"Never underestimate the potential psychosis of a reality show contestant." managerr

"RE: Everyone Please Read"
Posted by ugibugi on 09-06-03 at 03:54 AM
Get angry with me, or scold me, or take action against me if you like, but I have an opinion.

A post with a similar topic, or opinion but stated in a different manner is not a duplicate. If you copy and paste a message over and over to the same or different threads, each one of those posts are a duplicate of the original.

To say that a person cannot express their thoughts or feelings in thier own words just because somebody else has already posted their opinion is simply ludicrous. We are not discussing anything on this board of any real importance. We are here for entertainment reasons. It is entertaining to read each others opinions.

I may not feel that my post fits well under a thread that another person has started. While my my opinion may parallel anothers am I really expected to do research to see if I can possibly bury my opinion deep in a thread that I would not even wade through? Sure, we can fit all of our opinions into a handful of threads, but I know I am not alone when I say that I do not care to wade through post after post after post weeding out posts that are weeks old just to find something that is a recent opinion. You are saying that only the first person to have a thought or opinion sould be allowed to start a discussion and everybody else should fit their similar opinion into that post.

Lets look at an example. It has been quite a few weeks since everybody has started hating Zack. At some point there was a first person to post an opinion about Zack. How many posts have their been since that first one expressing an opinion on Zack? Hundreds, maybe thousands (probably not yet)? If we all follow the guideline of posting our Zack opinion under the original Zack opinion thread then you are going to have a HUGE thread to wade through. We are expected to sift through a rediculously long thread, and weed out things that are not up to date or entertaining simply so we do not have too many discussions on this board? Give me a break.

In the proposed admonishment we will have to make our way through many posts in a small number of discussion threads. In the way that is being frowed upon you have to make your way through many more discussions but each discussion has far less posts in it? What is the difference? We are still going through the same number of posts aren't we? It is just the why the discussions are structured that is different.

For example, lets use a small number of 100. Let's say we have 100 posts all on one topic. These posts come in over a 5 week period. If we put all of these posts into one discussion thread we have to weed out all the posts clear from way back 5 weeks ago. While the general topic may be the same, what most of us want to see and discuss is the most recent information. In week 2 I do not want to have to sort out the week 1 stuff. In week 3 I do not want to sort out the week 1 and 2 stuff. In week 4.... you get the point.

If there are more discussions it is easier to weed out the older stuff, and an uninteresting direction in the discussion is allowed to die. If some opinions are not provocative enough to elicit responses then they should be allowed to fade away. Here is an example of that. There have been posters on here commenting on how stupid people from Arizona are being made to look. I started a new discussion called Dictator of Arizona that commented on that subject. It was just another take on a topic already being discussed. I thought it was clever, it did not get much response. By putting it in it's own discussion it was allowed to fade away because it did not elicit enough responses. It has gotten out of the way and allowed better access to more interesting posts. In the proposed way it would not fade away and pull the general quality of the posts down. Having a larger number of discussions allows uninteresting and old posts to fade away as opposed to the option of a limited number of discussion which would keep uninteresting and old posts in the mix.

Either way we are having to deal with 100 posts, having more discussion threads allows the technology to do a little of the weeding out for us, pushing older and uninteresting posts out of the way.

Do not get me wrong, I do not like copy and paste postings. But, I enjoy reading they way people express their opinions. Sure, I have read many posts that have similar opinions, some are somewhat boring, but some are entertaining as hell. Just the expressions used or the tone of the post makes it worth reading even if it is a post that expresses an already expressed opinion.

Another part of what makes this board fun is the community aspect of it. We are coming together like people at a bar and we are having a discussion on a stupid little topic. Would you dare tell a person at a bar that they cannot express an opinion in their own words simply because another person has already expressed that opinion? God I hope not, that would put you in the same catagory as the he/she we all love to hate, Toni.

Another point, not everybody reads every thread, maybe the headline is not eye catching. Some people may be posting what they think is an original opinion being unaware that somebody else has already made a post expressing that opinion, it happens, so what! I know some of you will suggest that a person should spend enough time reading posts before making a post so they do not commit this terrible act. Why? A person is only allowed to express an opinion after meeting some sort of prerequisite?

Do not ruin another board by playing board cop. Like I said before, we are not discussing anything here of any importance, we are here having fun. Don't be a buzz kill just because you feel it is some great inconvienience to read more than one discussion on the same topic.

Enough said.

"No"
Posted by GlassJax on 09-06-03 at 04:45 AM
I'd rather see more posts in less threads. It's easier to sift through things and keep up on whats current that way.

Feel free to start a new post after a newly aired show about how "classy Dave handled himself" intead of using one that says that from last week's episode. But DO NOT start one if someone else has something complimenting Dave in anyway. Put your post there. More people will read it, and you will get better/more responses.

BTW-How long did it take for you to type out that rant. Seemed well thought out. Wrong, but well thougth out, which I respect...

"To clarify"
Posted by sleeeve on 09-06-03 at 06:01 AM
I responded to your other topic, but just to clarify...

No one is asking you to read every post, or even every thread.

I think that a realistic expectation is that you should take the time to read the topics listed on the front page of the forum before posting.

You don't even have to click on them. Just read the headlines and the first paragraph (which shows up below the headline).

If nothing looks related to what you have to say, then by all means post a new thread.

As I've said before in our other forums, deciding what is "related" discussion is a judgement call on your part (and ours). Ultimately we're all talking about PH in this forum, so in one way, every thread is related. I can't necessarily define a duplicate topic, but I usually know one when I see it.

A duplicate thread has two negative side effects:

1) It disperses conversation between two threads. To use your bar example, imagine if your friends were all talking about the same thing in a bar, and then suddenly they split up into two groups to continue the discussion. You can try to pay attention to both groups, but you're likely to keep repeating yourself, and it's unlikely that you would be able to fully participate in both conversations. On the other hand, you can continue the conversation in ONE of the groups, but then you miss out on the insight from the other group and they miss out on your comments.

2) It adds another topic to the front page. Let's be realistic here. 0nce a thread drops off of the front page, it's gone, rarely (if ever) to be seen again. So realistically speaking, there can only be approximately 25 ongoing "conversations" in this forum at once. By posting a duplicate topic, you are making it difficult for others to carry on conversations about other issues which they find relevant or interesting.

The bottom line is that, as moderators, we know that everyone can make mistakes. I've scanned the front page for a topic, posted what I thought was an earth-shattering revelation, and then discovered that someone already posted the exact same thing, just a few posts below my own. We all make duplicate threads at times, and it's the moderators job to determine if some should be locked so that others can thrive.

If your duplicate thread is locked, you can respond in one of two ways... you can repost your comments to a related thread, and carry on the discussion (if you do this, you'll probably find that others are receptive to your comments and you may have a great discussion), or you can wallow in bitterness that the moderators locked your thread... frankly, I don't care which one you choose, but I think that you'll find that carrying on is a lot more fun .

"To GlassJax, Sleeve and Scarberian"
Posted by ugibugi on 09-06-03 at 02:25 PM
To GlassJax:

It did take me a little while to write that post, actually it is a combination of two posts. I wrote it one way then realized it did not address the subject as well as I thought it should. So, I took away some stuff and added other parts. In fact, I should have removed a little more because rereading it again I notice there are parts that do not fit well or does not express my opinion as well as I probably could with a little more attention. It did take me some time, but probably not as long as you think. Since I was being critical I thought it was important to explain myself rather than just saying something like "That is a stupid rule, you suck" As far as my being wrong, well as you know that is an opinion and I believe I am right. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

To Sleeve:

If you are a moderator of this board I appreciate the way you answered my post. I know my post was critical, but I did not mean it to be an "in your face" criticism al'la Toni. I think you took my post in the way that I meant it. I wanted to express my contrary opinion, defend it to a point and express my hopes that this board not be overmoderated. Your response was very Dave-like. You seemed to take what I said, understood that while I was being critical I was not trying to be confrontational and you in a calm manner explained your position, I really appreciate that.

To respond to the two points you enumerated:

1. You used my bar example as to why we should not have different discussion threads. You mention that if there was two discussions in a bar, both on the same topic, that a person would have a difficult time keeping up with both conversations. I agree. However, those conversations are taking place in real time, and must be experienced at the time the conversation is taking place. On this message board that is not the case. I can take part in one discussion, then move to another one and not have missed anything.

2. I agree that a topic that is not on the first page is essentially gone. Some will venture onto the second page but if statistics are kept I imagine that percent of visitors is small. So I agree, topics that get bumped to the second page are probably dead or in their final death spasms. You see this as a bad thing, I do not necessarily see it the same way. I see it as a sort of natural selection. The strongest posts, the ones most people are interested in will survive, the older or uninteresting posts will die out. This keeps your first page fresh and interesting. This can be a problem if you get people flooding the board with discussions purposly trying to disrupt and force legitimate conversations off the front page, but there is a really good group of people on here and I have seen little to none of that type of activity. So, I my opinion is that 25 discussions on the first page is probably enough to handle a little duplication and not lose topics.

That is my opinion, and that being said, since I am only a guest here I will try to observe the way you wish things to be done here. I may disagree and neither one of us or both of us may be right, but this is your board to moderate and I will try to meet your wishes.

I want to make a point again that I appreciate the way you responded to my post. You made your point in a civilized manner. You gave your opinion and showed my why you have that opinion. In my estimation you have shown yourself to be a good moderator. I am sure you have been to other boards where the moderators like to think they are gods and will punish harshly anybody who expresses an opinion that differs from their own. They have power, but do not have the character to know when to and when not to use it. I am sure you agree that over moderating a board can be just as much of a death stroke to a board as undermoderating it can be.

Which brings me to Scarberian.

To Scarberian:

So, you would kick me off the board for having an opinion and expressing it? You would kick me off the board because I see things in a different way? You would kick me off the board because you feel threatened by my expression of an opinion? Boards are here for the discussion of various topics, this was a topic that was brought up and I decided to give my opinion. Do you think that you always have the correct answer? Have you never learned from listening to a contrary opinion?

It is a good thing you are not a moderator, you have given the perfect example of overmoderation killing a board. Your reaction to criticism is to kill the poster, rather than doing like Sleeve did and offering his (her?) opinion and calmly and maturely trying to make me understand. Notice that I still do not agree with Sleeve, but because of the way my opinion was responded to I respect Sleeve's opinion and will try to comply, even if I do not agree. I will still be here hopefully adding posts that others might enjoy.

Do you know what I would have the notion to do if you were moderator and you kicked me? I may decide to log back in from another account and spam the hell out of your board. If you were moderator in time you would be here talking you yourself because you do not know how to be persuasive, you only know heavy handedness. Is your name Toni?

"RE: To GlassJax, Sleeve and Scarberian"
Posted by Scarberian on 09-08-03 at 09:56 AM
I hate to further de-rail, however...

So, you would kick me off the board for having an opinion and expressing it?
No. I would have kicked you off for beating a dead horse and sassing the mods. I was merely suggesting that they were being far more patient with your antics than I would be and that you should be more respectful of such a tolerant atmosphere.

Your reaction to criticism is to kill the poster, rather than doing like Sleeve did and offering his (her?) opinion and calmly and maturely trying to make me understand.
No one should have to take the time to explain this to you. The rules for these forums are clearly stated. I don't take issue with your opinion, but rather your approach to a resolution. You could have very easily brought this up with the mods by email rather than throwing a temper tantrum on the forums because one of your threads got locked.

If you were moderator in time you would be here talking you yourself because you do not know how to be persuasive, you only know heavy handedness. Is your name Toni?
Nothing says master of persuasion like good old-fashioned name calling... You certainly taught me my lesson!

Sorry to waste everyone's time with this nonsense.
Back to the show!

"RE: To GlassJax, Sleeve and Scarberian"
Posted by ugibugi on 09-08-03 at 10:11 PM
1. I did not beat a dead horse nor did I sass the mods. I found one of my posts locked and did not understand why it was. I strongly voiced my opposition to that. I did not understand that it had been locked for the purposes of controling the number of discussions. If you think that is sass then you have live a very sheltered life.

2. If you wish people to understand why something was done, then I suggest that you do in fact state the reason. It was not obvious as to why my post was locked. A simple response saying why would have avoided my confusion and this whole exchange. To characterize my difference of opinion as throwing a tantrum then again I suggest you have lived a very sheltered life.

3. Sure, I called you Toni. I used it to demonstrate how extreme your answer to my opinions was. Maybe it went over your head, believe me I could have been much more descriptive of your reaction and I am sure you would have liked that even less.

I have tried to move on from this topic, you want to bring it up again.

"RE: To GlassJax, Sleeve and Scarberian"
Posted by Scarberian on 09-11-03 at 11:22 AM
LAST EDITED ON 09-11-03 AT 11:33 AM (EST)

1. I did not beat a dead horse nor did I sass the mods.
I qualify the diatribes you have spewed out on the topic of duplicate posts as beating a dead horse. Obviously, you don't agree, otherwise you would have stopped posting about this already.

2. If you wish people to understand why something was done, then I suggest that you do in fact state the reason.
Both members of this site and the mods have tried explaining the reasoning behind the rules to you repeatedly. As one of the other members suggested, the mods look after this site on their own time to give us a place to gather and engage in discussion. We are all guests here. If we don't like the rules, we don't have to continue patronizing the site.

3. Sure, I called you Toni. I used it to demonstrate how extreme your answer to my opinions was. Maybe it went over your head, believe me I could have been much more descriptive of your reaction and I am sure you would have liked that even less.
I really think this comment was uncalled for and it most certainly did not go over my head. As I have stated previously I did not take exception to your opinion, I took exception to the way you went about obtaining a resolution. I certainly have never called your intelligence into question, as you have mine (bad form). Your concerns have been addressed by members of this site as well as the moderators, but you continue to question the site's policy. If my inital response to you was "extreme", I don't know how to characterize your reaction.

I have tried to move on from this topic, you want to bring it up again.
It really doesn't look that way to me.

Ugibugi, I really do enjoy your contribution to the forums. I have laughed out loud at many of your posts and replies and I appreciate the fact that you are abiding by the rules of the site, whether you agree with them or not. If I offended you with my remarks, I apologize, but please, enough already...

"RE: To clarify"
Posted by ugibugi on 09-06-03 at 02:48 PM
I did not see your response in the other thread before posting my most recent post here. I am glad I saw this response before the other one.

"I feel obligated to point out two more sections of the site guidelines to you... first of all, please familiarize yourself with Section XIII. I appreciate your concern about over-administration and I hope that this explanation will help you to understand our actions. However, pursuant to that section, you are welcome to disagree with any decision that we make, but you are not welcome to repeatedly question the decision and ultimately you must abide by our judgement. Now that you have had the opportunity to air your complaints and now that I have responded with an explanation, I fully expect that this will be the end of this discussion."

That was part of your post in the other thread. Later you locked that thread so no response could be made.

Like I said, I am glad I saw the response you made here first, the response you made on the other thread would have probably cause me to have a different reaction. I will still try to meet your expectations when it comes to duplicate posts, but it is because of the way you responed to my concerns in this thread and not because of the "I fully expect that this will be the end of this discussion." and the "ultimately you must abide by our judgement" demeanor of the other thread. The "here is why you should comply" response is much more effective than the "you will comply" response.

Ok, enough. Back to trashing Zack.

"RE: To clarify"
Posted by sleeeve on 09-07-03 at 01:46 AM
This is not necessarily just a comment for ugibugi, but a comment for all who participate in this forum.

I responded to each of your posts in the same tone that you took to start them.

In the now locked thread, you began your post with "What the hell is the deal with locking one of my posts?" and continued to accuse the moderators of over-moderation. I responded in the same tone that you took, succinctly and perhaps a bit rudely.

In this thread, you took the time to fully and politely explain your point of view, so I afforded you the same courtesy in explaining my point of view.

So... my comment to all who read these forums is simply this: the moderators are always receptive to your suggestions about how to improve this community. Yes, RTVW.com has been around for over three years (since the original Survivor season!), so we have a bit of experience in what seems to work and what doesn't and there are usually reasons for most everything that we do... However, I would strongly encourage you to treat us with the same respect that you wish to be treated in our response to you.

...and I agree... enough of this... back to trashing Zack.

"RE: Everyone Please Read"
Posted by tabbyjg28 on 09-11-03 at 06:02 PM
I'm new and probably won't write back after today, but thank you. I'm sure a lot of people thank you also. This is not like PH and the new vs. old group, I just thought it'd be fun to write and the show did have an affect on me so I wanted to write. As for what anyone thinks of that, just don't read it. Da! Thanks again!

TJ

"RE: Everyone Please Read"
Posted by Scarberian on 09-06-03 at 12:19 PM
Do not ruin another board by playing board cop. Like I said before, we are not discussing anything here of any importance, we are here having fun. Don't be a buzz kill just because you feel it is some great inconvienience to read more than one discussion on the same topic.

If I were one of the mods, you'd be long gone.
No one is trying to piss on anyone's parade.
The rules are in place to keep the forums organized and ease thread navigation.
The whole persecution complex deal is getting really old, really fast.

"Just a Comment"
Posted by Drive My Car on 09-07-03 at 04:15 PM
I am not a Mod but would like to offer a suggestion to our newer members.

Please read the complete guidelines for the site, they are the reason this site functions as well as it does.

They can be found at the top of every page and here is a link.

http://community.realitytvworld.com/boards/DCForumID33/87.shtml

I am not acusing anyone of breaking those rules, just saying that anyone who has not read them should.


"Thanx- Good Info in Guidelines"
Posted by Crazy4Jason on 09-08-03 at 09:01 AM
Crz4Jason

Glad you posted the link for everyone DriveMyCar. Allthough I had already read these guidelines for my own reference, it might helpout a little in this continuing thread if EVERYONE read it again. I know everyone's time on the board can be limited, espacially those who check in throughout the day between meetings at work or between cleaning the house. NO ONE on this board has time to read every single post in the Paradise forum but it does help to read or skim over the posts from the past
2-3 days to avoid duplicate conversations. I just started posting here lsat weeek myself and love the chance to discuss Paradise the next day with others who are enjoying this show & the drama as much as I am.

I. PLEASE WELCOME NEW MEMBERS
When new members arrive, please welcome them to our growing community. New members are not "newbies" to be teased. All of you were new members once. Treat newcomers the way that you wanted to be treated when you joined. We know that many of our community's "elders" (regardless of age) are full of helpful information and have much to share. Please help newcomers learn how things are done, how to find information, how to save time, and how to get involved in the community.

IV. AVOID DUPLICATE POSTS
Do not post the same discussion more than once on a discussion forum or on multiple forums. Weeding through duplicate discussions can be frustrating and annoying for other members, especially for those whose time and energy is limited. Duplicate discussions will be deleted. Reposting the same message repeatedly will be interpreted as SPAM.


"RE: Everyone Please Read"
Posted by Breezy on 09-08-03 at 10:48 AM
Another suggestion for some newcomers, lurk over at some of the other boards and see how things work.

You'll see lots of threads with 100's of messages in them.


*Breezy ... keeping OT satisfied since 2003*


"RE: Everyone Please Read"
Posted by CantStandToLook on 09-08-03 at 02:53 PM
Another shameless bump just because I think there are probably people that haven't seen yet that could benefit and others that have seen but may find their opinions validated or descredited in the ensuing messages. Something fun for all in this thread.
"Sigh..."
Posted by GlassJax on 09-08-03 at 05:07 PM
This can NOT be bumped up enough.

Referance smacka's 1st post, "Zack is on Crack" starting a new thread, that is covered by at least, oh, one-hundred and fifty-seven previous posts...

Sigh again for effect.

"I swear..."
Posted by GlassJax on 09-08-03 at 10:48 PM
Some people, I won't name names, as that would be a persoanal attack, are dumb as a box of rocks. Seriously, their about as sharp as a bowling ball. They should be put in a small padded room to cut out paper dolls with blunt sissors. That's about all I would trust them to do. If possible, I would want them sterialized, to keep them out of the gene pool too.

Oh, and bumpity bump.

"RE: Everyone Please Read"
Posted by lroy on 09-09-03 at 02:26 PM
Ah hem *cough* BUMP!!
"RE: Everyone Please Read"
Posted by true on 09-09-03 at 06:57 PM
The fact that this thread was already at the bottom of the page, in just a couple of hours, proves that it needs an obvious bump.

Please, everyone, try to fit your comments on to an already existing topic. How many "Zack is an idiot" or "Why did Holly vote for Melanie" threads do there need to be?? A topic was started to discuss this weeks episode. All of these posts could fit neatly on that thread. I realize this show infuriates people, but please, have some control, and post less new topics!

"RE: Everyone Please Read"
Posted by Breezy on 09-10-03 at 08:29 AM
I think the newbies are just ignoring this thread.
Thanks True!


*Breezy ... keeping OT satisfied since 2003*


"RE: Everyone Please Read"
Posted by Crazy4Jason on 09-10-03 at 08:32 AM


I always tend to ignore insignificant things myself. Perhaps all of the "newbies" are just doing it now to piss you guys off. Uh BUMPITYBUMPBUMP---

Crz4Jason

"RE: Everyone Please Read"
Posted by sbeck on 09-10-03 at 10:36 AM
Yep. I started the "Episode 9/8" thread figuring everything on Monday's episode would go there, but on Tuesday, there were about 10 new threads! So here's another bump!
"RE: Everyone Please Read"
Posted by CantStandToLook on 09-10-03 at 11:36 AM
I've lost the urge to post because there are so many duplicate threads about the same thing and it appears that the newbies are desparate to get their names on the right side of the page.

Here's a bump to hopefully someone locking the new Zack thread when there are sooo many others that comments could have gone under.

"To Sbeck"
Posted by Breezy on 09-10-03 at 04:07 PM
I appreciate you starting that episode thread. I was going to do the same in the hopes that those of us that like a thread with all thoughts in them instead of 20 threads with 3 thoughts had a place to go.

If you don't start one for tonight's, I'll start one up tomorrow morning.


*Breezy ... keeping OT satisfied since 2003*


"To Breezy"
Posted by sbeck on 09-10-03 at 04:33 PM
Thank you! It's nice to be appreciated - I love this board! I watch the East Coast feed, and am usually so angered by PH that I log on either during the show to vent, or right after. Can't wait for tonight's episode! (And here's another bump to the top!)
"RE: Everyone Please Read"
Posted by johnnycasino1 on 09-10-03 at 04:49 PM
Okay, is it me or does all this talk of "newbies" on this message board sound like those who are not "newbies" must be "originals" - Doesn't that remind you of a certain show?

While I have been reading this message board the last two months, I didn't start posting message till a little over a week ago (so that must make me a "newbie"!). While I agree with the comments made that people shouldn't post multiple related topics, it has been nice the last two weeks to have many new people posting their thoughts about the show. Before that, most of the comments seemed to come from a few folks. To me, it's a minor price to pay in order to have more folks contributing to this forum.

You originals can disagree with me, but don't make me be Keith and have to "bump" any of you off!

(I really meant this message as a joke, I hope no one is offended by it - I just thought it sounded funny the similarities of the "new" vs "originals" comments between PH and this thread)

Thanks for listening,
Tony

"RE: Everyone Please Read"
Posted by GlassJax on 09-10-03 at 05:16 PM
I never think a joke is funny if someone has to explain it to me.


Bump it up!

"RE: Everyone Please Read"
Posted by johnnycasino1 on 09-10-03 at 05:38 PM
Sorry, I wasn't sure if the "originals" would understand that it was a joke. They always take everything so seriously and don't realize that us "newbies" are just playing the game.

"RE: Everyone Please Read"
Posted by Breezy on 09-10-03 at 06:07 PM
I'll ignore the original vs newbie thing since you say it was a joke.

But I think most of would agree we like things a little neater then they've been. Right now besides a thread name called something about the original's goodbye speech, we also have one for each original. To me that's not needed, the individual speeches could have been posted inside the thread named original's goodbye speeches.

Granted we're all DAWs here and want to see our names on the right and have fun. But personally I would rather see one thread with my name on the front page and 30-50 posts in it than 10 threads with my name on the front page and 3 posts inside of each of them.

"RE: Everyone Please Read"
Posted by ugibugi on 09-10-03 at 10:57 PM
I know some of you are not happy because I have voiced my opinion about the way messages are posted on this board, but I am going to weigh in again, and probably hurt some feelings again. But, notice that I have tried to comply with the wishes of the mods. Also as I write my opinion just think of the quote that is at the top of every page on this board "If you disagree with something I write, tell me so, argue with me, correct me--but don't tell me to shut up. That's not the American way." - Roger Ebert

Here is my thought. I cannot believe how important some of you think the idea of limiting discussions is. Ok, some, maybe most of you think that more posts per discussion is a good thing, I have my reasons to believe differently. But like I said before, while I might have different thoughts on this, I have complied. But some of you seem to think this is such an important thing you are actually getting upset about it. So you have to go through more discussions - big deal! You are still reading the same number of posts! So discussions get split up - big deal! Why is that such a horrible thing to happen?

My god people, this is a message board where we are discussing a very stupid "reality" show. We are not discussing anything that is of any real importance at all. You are actually getting upset because of the way trivial comments about a trivial television show are being structured on this message board. We are not building a database of important data that requires precise structure, we are talking about a show that most of us admit we find nauseating.

Are you guys that are bumping this post, and think it is so very important that this message gets out really believe that there is any real importance to this message getting out? Are you really suffering and feel so imposed upon because of the way the messages are structured on this board? Just as P-Ho is not reality, this board is not either. To take things such as the way people are posting on this board so seriously and so personally is really kind of silly don't you think?

Well, I a prepared to have people point out how wrong I am and make round about comments about this opinion, so be it.

"RE: Everyone Please Read"
Posted by true on 09-11-03 at 00:21 AM
I don't think anyone is unhappy that you voiced your opinion.

I still maintain that everyone who hates Zack does not need to start a new topic to announce it here. If everyone did that, the first page would be full of I hate Zack posts. How is that better?

The whole point of having threaded messages is to keep the topics managable. It's much easier to navigate a discussion on a particular topic if it's all contained in one thread. Why are you against doing that? If it's how these boards have run smoothly for 3 years, what is the advantage to having people start new topics for every thought that pops into their head? Nobody is saying that you shouldn't start NEW topics. Just that you take some time to read whats there, and if your thoughts fit an existing topic, then post them there. That way people without huge amounts of time can navigate the messages much easier than endlessly clicking on topics, just to read the same thing over and over and over.

It's not rocket science, nobody said it was. We are a community here, and we try to be respectful and courteous. We also follow the rules set up by the sites Webmaster. If we wanted to weed through a bunch of similar topics, we'd go to the Fox board. We're proud of the community we've built here, and it works because of the way it is run. You ask why people are so serious about it, while it seems that you are the one who is stuck on arguing against it.

We are very serious about these forums, and we want them to stay a place where adults can use them without being bombarded with drivel and repetition. It doesn't take much for a place like this to run amok, so we do take care to preserve it.

"RE: Everyone Please Read"
Posted by ugibugi on 09-11-03 at 01:41 AM
I am not arguing against it, in fact I have mentioned more than once that I am compling with the requested way of doing things. But there are people who seem to just be beside themselves because somebody posted a message that could have been posted under another thread. Big freaking deal! I am against the idea that some great ethical crime is being committed if somebody does starts a discussion that somebody else believes should be somewhere else, get over it.

Even with the duplicate discussions your front page is still very diverse and nothing is really getting lost before its useful time is up.

Let me propose this. If the whole reason is for expediency (spelling)then I suggest that within each discussion thread everybody start labeling their messages appropriately and placing your opinion into the proper sub-thread within a discussion. This would organize the messages much more and provide even more help for people who do not have a lot of time when they are looking for important information on a message board about a silly reality show.

So who is with me? Lets start trying to organize ourselves better within the different discussion threads. All the same reasons given for strict structure on the discussion topics should be valid for the various threads that fall under that discussion.

Ludicrous? Maybe, but no more so than being so concerned about the number of discussions. Nobody is being harmed, nobody is being caused some great inconvienence, no valuable information is being lost, what you are worrying about is trivialities.

"RE: Everyone Please Read"
Posted by CantStandToLook on 09-11-03 at 09:37 AM
The reason that people keep bumping this topic to the forefront is because there are people that are not reading the guidelines of the site. The moderators do things the way they do for a reason. As I have been told when asking and complaining about all the multiple threads on the same subject, the moderators have full time jobs and also try to maintain this site for our enjoyment. Instead of berating people for trying to follow the guidelines of the site and asking that other do so also, maybe you should just read them and if you disagree strongly, stop using the site.

By no means am I asking you to leave or saying that I'd prefer it that way. What I AM saying is that just as with software and most other sites that you SUBSCRIBE to ,because you did sign up to be a member of this site, there are rules, guidelines or agreements that by subscribing you state that you agree to abide by. They do not FORCE you to read the guidelines and send back in a signed copy before enabling your handle on SB. However, it is NO LESS expected that you will follow the rules to the best of your ability. Now it has become painfully obvious that some people aren't reading the guidelines so we as members of the community are just putting them out there where they can be seen.

If you have a preferential way of doing things that goes against the way they've asked us to do things here, by all means start your own board and do it your way. I still consider myself a newbie, a member of this community and most importantaly a GUEST on SB's board so I'll do things the way they've asked because they dont have to allow me or you to be here.

Just my nickel

"RE: Everyone Please Read"
Posted by TheDigable on 09-10-03 at 11:04 PM
LAST EDITED ON 09-16-03 AT 00:43 AM (EST)

"RE: Everyone Please Read"
Posted by Chrissy gal on 09-11-03 at 02:05 AM
Thank you Digible. Mother Angelica is so cute!

Chrissy gal

"Never underestimate the potential psychosis of a reality show contestant." managerr

"RE: Everyone Please Read"
Posted by pootboy on 09-11-03 at 02:21 AM

uhh, yeah, seriously, I think you kids could just maybe relax a little bit. having to click to {gasp} page 2 is...not really worthy of a Braveheart rallying cry, if you catch my drift.

I mean, by this logic we may as well limit ourself to ONE topic, since we are all talking about the same show after all. Imagain how easy your Board Police job would be THEN???

"RE: Everyone Please Read"
Posted by Breezy on 09-11-03 at 08:24 AM
I happen to know that most of the peeps posting here are not kids, which is why we like things neater.


*Breezy ... keeping OT satisfied since 2003*


"RE: Everyone Please Read"
Posted by KScott on 09-11-03 at 09:42 AM
LAST EDITED ON 09-11-03 AT 09:47 AM (EST)

I have to admit I quit reading this forum because of all of the duplicate messages about the same thing. Why doesn't someone just start a I hate Zack, Foni, Beau, etc. or an I love Zack Foni, Beau, etc and keep all those posts there? If you look at BB4 they have an "I loathe Jun" post and then everyone posts their "hate" thoughts about Jun there.

I know in a perfect world that could happen but we do not live in a perfect world. Anywho, I just thought I would voice my opinion and thoughts and by doing so I have "Bumped" this again (even though it is not doing any good)!


- Never be bullied into silence. Never allow yourself to be made a victim. Accept no one's definition of your life; define yourself. - Harvey Fierstein

"Duplicate threads...."
Posted by thndrkttn on 09-11-03 at 09:50 AM
Even though I don't have tremendously high numbers, I have been around for over two years. I recommend to the people in favor of having several threads started on the same topic to venture over to the Survivor boards and check those out.

If there is even ONE repetitive thread on Fanatics, Bashers or Spoilers, one of the mods either locks the duplicate immediately citing that the subject was being discussed elsewhere or the person who posted the duplicate thread upon realizing that it is a duplicate REQUESTS that it be locked so as not to be repetitive and split up the discussion at hand.

I don't understand why this is such a difficult concept to accept and adhere to. *boggle*

"RE: Everyone Please Read"
Posted by Bebo on 09-11-03 at 10:16 AM
While I'm not a moderator on this forum, I'd like to weigh in with my 2 cents...

One of the nice things about threaded communities is that discussions can be sustained on a variety on topics.

When I first started posting here, someone pointed out that these threads were like conversations. And it's a lot easier to keep up with focused conversations that to grab pieces here and there.

I really don't think that this is a case of "originals" ganging up on "newbies" (and yes, I realize that comparison was used in jest, but it is an interesting analogy). The folks who've been posting on the various RTVW forums know what kinds of fun and interesting discussions can develop when there is some semblance of order. It's amazing how quickly a number of "newbies" who have followed these guidelines have become integral parts of the RTVW community - and folks quickly forget that they haven't been around long and look forward to discussing shows with them.

Do you want to get posters involved in discussions with you, to pay attention to what you have to say, and respond? Given the large amount of traffic on this site, the guidelines and the avoidance of duplicate topics have helped this to happen quite effectively on the various forums. It's as much to help your words get the attention you'd like them to as it is to help the reader.

And if you just want to get your comments out into cyberspace in your desired format and you don't really care if people respond to your comments, then just start a blog.

Life is a game where we make up the rules as we go along.

"Here is MY .02!"
Posted by Lahela on 09-11-03 at 12:02 PM
I am a member of a couple of messageboards and on the one I post to the most, we have ONE thread for each topic...i.e..a b*tch topic to voice any and all complaints, a happy topic for..well anything happy..a random topic for all random discussion, a picture topic to post pics, a movie topic to discuss movies and..well, you get the picture! We have a total of 12 threads at all times. It makes things a heck of a lot more easier to navigate. Having to sift through multiple threads on the same topic is lame and really a waste of time.
Anyway....there are rules there as well about making new topics about things that could obviously go in one of these catagories. Sure...the threads get long, but obviously you aren't going to sit there and re-read the entire topic to find the new threads...that's what that little thing up in the right hand corner is for..it's called the Date and Time. If you haven't been here for 2 days and you want to catch up on the last two days discussion, find the corresponding date and start there. It's not a difficult thing to do. Having ONE topic for each line of discussion has always worked on every board I frequent. There is no need to make a new topic each time you have a new thought about something. If there is a discussion about hating Zack and you have comments relating to that, than obviously the I hate Zack thread would be the ideal place to post your opinions and thoughts. It really helps the mods out and keeps the board clean. There is no reason to have multiple threads on the same thing.
I know I am going to get flack for posting this, but i really don't care. It really isn't a difficult concept to grasp. One thread per topic! That's it. Pretty simple. If you don't want to read everyone else's posts, then don't. No one is forcing you to read the entire thread. Just reply to the last post and state your opinions or whatever regarding that topic. You can even change the subject line if you want like I did here on my post to reflect your post. So please people, lets be a little more cooperative and considerate of the mods and make things easier for everyone.
Thanks for listening. I will now step off of my soapbox and go on to the next topic.
"RE: Everyone Please Read"
Posted by hatestupidpeople on 09-11-03 at 11:33 AM
Get a grip Breezy.....who cares....look how may posts have been added. Just read the old ones and call it a day.
"RE: Everyone Please Read"
Posted by KScott on 09-11-03 at 01:12 PM
>Get a grip Breezy.....who cares....

Alot of us "care".

>look how
>may posts have been added.

That is just the point look how many posts "have" been added. Many are 1 liners that will get no responses, they could have been put under lets say a "I hate Amy" catagory, etc.

>Just read the old ones
>and call it a day.

Like I said this thread tires me out from all the posts, I am ready to call it a day after reading them!



- Never be bullied into silence. Never allow yourself to be made a victim. Accept no one's definition of your life; define yourself. - Harvey Fierstein

"RE: Everyone Please Read"
Posted by infinitesurvivor on 09-11-03 at 07:49 PM
The multiple posts situation can be accredited to the production format of the showgram, in as that; it got personal. In such a case, as in the survivor boards, seperate "folders" become an option. ie: "contestent discussions", "episode discussions", "spoiler/speculation discussions", "production discussions", etc..

"RE: Everyone Please Read"
Posted by lroy on 09-12-03 at 04:44 PM
a little unsolicited bump.

~lroy

"RE: Everyone Please Read"
Posted by Angelfood on 09-13-03 at 00:06 AM
bump.
and testing new sig.

"RE: Everyone Please Read"
Posted by CantStandToLook on 09-13-03 at 02:04 PM
I feel like were beating a dead horse here too but since people keep posting new messages that are blatant or non-blatant ripoffs of other posts or thread already here I feel the need to Bump it back up to the top.

No newbie vs original thinking here but Please Please Please read some posts before repeating someonelses idea as a new thread. It's just annoying.

"RE: Everyone Please Read"
Posted by lipztik on 09-13-03 at 04:16 PM
I sure hope I didnt opened a can of worms here, if I did, it was unintentional. I was just trying to say that I like this site. Now, Im beginning to think that I have to make sure I think twice before I even try to say something here.

thx everyone

"RE: Everyone Please Read"
Posted by ugibugi on 09-13-03 at 02:17 PM
Please people, get a grip. Whether you read a post that is a similar opinion inside of a discussion, or in a discussion by itself, you are still going to read it. And my god, if the information on this board is so important then you will have no problem clicking to the second page to find that oh-so important information.

I know that my post here will bump this discussion again, but the thing I find most annoying about this message board is the fact that this discussion keeps weaseling it's way back to the top.

"RE: Everyone Please Read"
Posted by TheDigable on 09-13-03 at 02:22 PM
"RE: Everyone Please Read"
Posted by lroy on 09-15-03 at 10:48 PM
Bumpity, Bump, Bump.

~lroy

"Needed it"
Posted by GlassJax on 09-15-03 at 10:50 PM
After reading the thrid duplicate post...Amy's stoopid/Amy's a b|tch/I hate Amy....

I just had to pull up this dead horse it hopes it would stand up and drag me away.

4 Days

"RE: Everyone Please Read"
Posted by kyngsladye on 09-15-03 at 11:42 PM
My heavens how big this thread has gotten.

I've been on the Other Shows forum experiencing some of the same difficulty and (but not quite as much). Whenever we get new forums & newbies, we get duplicate stuff for a little while. Bebo was made famous during the Mole as she helped guide newbies through the guidelines (before she was a moderator).

A couple of weeks ago, one poster repeatedly posted duplicate threads. We already had a thread for the discussion (which wasn't over 30 posts), so there was no need for a new thread. I attempted to kindly point them to our already existing thread to no avail. The poster posted another duplicate thread after my response. It seemed to me, the poster wasn't even reading their own thread and responses, let alone any of the other threads.

I just want to repeat how much we love for newbies to join the boards. We get excited when they get here. We welcome them for their loves/hates and opinions. But, please keep it somewhat organized. And it is allowable that after a thread reaches 100 posts to start a second thread so you don't have to wade through a ton of old posts.

This is one of the best sites for Reality TV but it is huge. As citizens of this community it helps for us to keep it neat and clean.

La Métropole

"Duplicate Posts Suck!!!"
Posted by KScott on 09-17-03 at 11:09 AM
Bump Bump Bump!!!


- Never be bullied into silence. Never allow yourself to be made a victim. Accept no one's definition of your life; define yourself. - Harvey Fierstein