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"Really, why the demise of SO"
Posted by Shazbot on 05-29-06 at 05:59 PM
Okay everyone, in your opinion, why do you really think Starting Over failed to succeed?

I, like many, loved Season 1. And season 1 was a success because it allowed the show to move to Los Angeles. For me, season 2 is what killed it, and someone on these boards stated there was a 20 per cent drop in ratings during Season 2. I stopped watching in Season 2 because the show seemed to have lost its dynamism.

So why on earth did I start watching in Season 3? I can't even explain that to myself because the answer is I was flipping around and Lisa1 caught my attention. Yikes. But she was the spitting image in both appearance and attitude of someone I used to be friends with... and I was hooked again. Looking at season 3, it seems SO was desperate to up its ratings.

Anyway, the issues and women dealing with these issues is important... so how did they screw up the show? It's what television should be used for.

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Messages in this discussion
"RE: Really, why the demise of SO"
Posted by beckettrep on 05-29-06 at 06:07 PM
I think the show failed because after Season 1 the woman all started to realize there was money to be made on E-bay after completing their little stint on TV. The motives of the housemates were much more suspect - many, I believe, came up with some pretty bogus 'issues' in order to get themselves on TV. Season 1 was truly pure in the women's intent - they were really there to get help - Season 2 started the decline and Season 3 just sealed the coffin. Someone like Lisatwit would have never lasted very long had she been in the House during Season 1 - she would have been given the boot pronto - same for the likes of Towanda, who only wanted to find a way to get her name, face and voice 'out there' in hopes of becoming the next Toni Braxton. Kim Bookman, with all her money and resources, would have been told to go seek her own private counseling - she could afford it - the list goes on but I think it's obvious what really killed Starting Over. To cap things off we now have the wanna-be stars hawking all their junk on E-bay ( and making sure they ALWAYS mention SO in the process). Just too much bad Karma and it finally caught up and gave SO a really big, nasty bite on the bottom-side.
"RE: Really, why the demise of SO"
Posted by imagma on 05-29-06 at 06:27 PM
I think the show failed because they failed to put women who had legitimate issues on the show. Too many women have had issues with their parents. Fathers they never knew. Mothers who abandoned or abused them. Think about it - how many were there? Secondly, the ways the life coaches dealt with it. Way too far out to me.

Then when women did not make much progress (maybe because there were no issues to begin with) they graduated! Graduated without making any progress?

Too much fake drama for me. If the show can't or won't improve I would be fine without a season 4. It is sad though because there are women who have legitimate problems that could have benefited from the show.

Sommer and Jodi contributed to the demise of SO.

"RE: Really, why the demise of SO"
Posted by Zoey on 05-29-06 at 07:01 PM
I don't know if the novelty wore off or if I began to see repetition in the exercises or was just plain bored by the excercises.

But when I first started watching, there seemed to be a general caring for the "process" and the "integrety" and the women in the house. But as time went on, I think both the show's agenda (to be more dramatic than real) and the house guests (having been exposed to watching the show, unlike season 1) the show lost it's luster.

I was also dissapointed that some people seemed to stay too long and others were rushed out of the house.

I seem to remember the graduates having a noticable change. Most people (imo) from this season, didn't change at all.

I'm almost surprised that it's not coming back though. I would think that drama would win over substance on TV most of the time.

It saddens me because this was one daytime show that I would not miss for even one day. I am not into the likes of Jerry Springer or Maury or court shows or soaps. This was one hour of tv that I considered (mostly) valuable.

To see it deteriorate and then go away entirely is such a waste of quality tv.

"RE: Really, why the demise of SO"
Posted by SOfan0221 on 05-29-06 at 07:08 PM
I think they started to get more commercial and totally lost the premise of woman helping women. I also beleive that instead of screen people who really wanted help and to change their lives (Candie, Sinae as examples) they instead started to draw TV wannabes......women who wanted to get their face in front of the camera no matter what the cost.

The camerahog awards from season 3 go to Allison, Jill, Christina, Cassie, Christie, Jodi, and possibly Antonia (only say Antonia because I read she was turned down for another TV reality show and instead was put on SO.

Season 2 camerahog awards go to Allison, Towanda, Kimmie, Sommer, Cassie, Denise, Tess, Deborah, Karen and Layne.

But that is just mho. The original premise was so good. Take someone who is struggling and help them find their way and help them along the way. It ended up with take spoiled brats and make them more spoiled. Don't do anything that makes them work, think for themselves, or give them an assignment that would tax them. Instead hand it to them, if they can't accomplish it change it to a goup assignment.

"RE: Really, why the demise of SO"
Posted by JustBNMe on 05-29-06 at 10:24 PM
They lost their vision for the show and went strictly for ratings and money and we the viewing public were not fooled. The HG they started picking became boring, petty and bad acting Hollywood wanna be's. Then in season 2 they won the emmy for what was really their shows for season 1 and thought they were going in the right direction and became even more off track in looking for ratings. IMO they didn't win the first emmy for season 2 beacuse all of season 2 had not aired yet.
"RE: Really, why the demise of SO"
Posted by SeasonedRefinement on 05-30-06 at 03:14 AM
This turned out to be longer than I anticipated. It's probably my swan song, so if you don't have the patience for a long post, you may want to skip this one. You have been warned, LOL.

Why the demise of SO? Big question with an even bigger answer. From my perspective, it helps to remember that B/M never claimed to be organization dedicated to transforming and empowering women - not really. They were a production team, and the only mandate they had was presented to them by an agent at the Wm. Morris Agency. Their job was to brainstorm and come up with a lucrative idea for a new type of program. The result of that session between Mary Ellis Bunim, a successful soap opera producer, and Jonathon Murray, who had a career in television news, was the reality show. The fact that I used to forget the true motivation for producing the show is a testament to their talent. Unfortunately, the magic faded when Ms. Bunim died in January, 2004. Her passing coincided with the changing face of the show.

I'm not saying that B/M didn't take pride and find value in what they were doing by producing Starting Over. It's just that we have to remember that their primary goal was to make money. Ratings equal sponsors equal money. By losing their ratings, which were never stellar, they were losing money. It simply isn't a financially sound decision to invest money in something that will yield small returns - especially in the world of entertainment.

Now, why did they lose their ratings and/or fail to gain momentum? I'm sure it is not a simple answer, but I don't think we can over-estimate the impact that Ms. Bunim had on the show. Being a successful soap opera producer for years, I think she had a pretty good feel for what would attract and hold female viewers.

When she had control of the production on a day-to-day basis, we met women who were plucked out of obscurity and, for the most part, they planned to go back to their private lives. We met a single mother who desperately wanted to get off of public assistance, a young widow trying to come to terms with the untimely death of her husband, a young party animal who needed to get an education, a woman who couldn't remember her deceased mother and wanted to find her biological father, a woman who wanted a driver's license, a mother/daughter duo who had a love/hate relationship, an intelligent, minor league basketball player's wife who was loosing her own identity, an ex-model who needed to come to terms with the suicide of her twin sister, etc. Sure, there were the occasional Josie's (pregnant, unsure of her baby's paternity, uneducated, unemployed, highly emotional and a little wacko), but they were generally the exception - the soap opera element - not the rule.

The two life coaches did a decent job -- they gave practical advice and they supported their clients. Rhonda seemed more down to earth, friendly, confident, and supportive when she was collaborating with Rana. Rana was dedicated, strong, non-dramatic, intelligent, and committed.

There was alot for a female viewer to relate to. Sure, we got frustrated with the drama, but it wasn't the show's calling card. I thought the LC's were skilled in walking a very fine line in balancing the specifc and the general. In other words, if we could not relate to a woman's specific circumstance, we could relate to the emotion, feeling, or belief that brought her to that place. While our road blocks may have taken a different form than the HG's, we realized that it was more important to identify what road was actually being blocked by the obstacle, as opposed to finding a HG who had an obstacle that matched the look of our own. The LC's were able to define the root causes of the road blocks, and they were the universal feelings of fear, unresolved guilt, anger, worthlessness, lack of self-esteem, childhood wounds, etc. And with that knowledge in hand, we could see ourselves and realize that growth and change were possible. It was good, and it was positive. We watched women fighting to do things that might have seemed easy if we hadn't followed their stories -- one woman had a horrible time cutting her hair, and another kept a room full of people waiting for over 20 minutes as she stood paralyzed on a high diving board. But we cheered them on, and we also learned that our battle might not be fought on a diving board or in a hair salon, but our fight would be just as intense, and the victory just as empowering.

While Ms. Bunim was alive long enough to meet Allison Stanley and cast her on the show when it moved to LA, I'm not sure that she would have approved of "Round 2" and everything it meant. Rana was replaced by a new LC, motivational speaker Iyanla VanZant. Iyanla may have been responsible for the most visible impact in changing the look and tone of the show. She and Rana had little in common other than their professions as LC's, their gender, and their ethnicity. Their histories were different, their approaches were different, their beliefs were different, and their professional goals were different. Rana would sit in a room and listen, taking authority when she felt it necessary or instructive. Iyanla would grab the attention of everyone and not let it go. Her diction, her body language, her facial expressions, her wardrobe, her essence -- it was all oozing with drama and fanfare. Rhonda's demeanor and approach changed as well. My personal opinion is that she didn't want to play second fiddle to Iyanla. I'm sure she had her own internal struggles in coming to terms with the changes, but on the exterior she changed, and it was for the worse. She became smug, sarcastic, and she frowned alot. Her exercises became degrading -- she called it a "reality check", but dressing a 40 year old woman in child's clothing, and telling her to put on her diaper so she doesn't pee, well, that was like watching something I shouldn't be watching.

Suddenly publicity hounds were getting cast on the show. Many viewers could not relate to "dreams of stardom" or delusions of grandeur. Allison, who came back a second time, destroyed her public reputation by proving to all of America that she wanted to be involved in an organization "from a celebrity perspective". Lisa1 had dabbled in modeling and had tried out for every reality "gig" available. Jessica, who's mother died in the 9/11 attack, came on the show furious and emotionally paralyzed by the fact that the public's "need to know" had prevented her from grieving her mother's death -- for four long years. So her answer was to grieve on television. Christina was an ex-hooker, ex-stripper, and ex-hustler who worked the Vegas strip - but she was also another model/actress wannable with a big secret that was never shared with the audience. Sommer, who is a celebrity watcher, got thrown out of the house for fraternizing with production. Kim B. had a dream to be on a soap opera, and Tess was caught calling an agent because she wanted a talk show of her own. Towanda goes on the show so that she can come out of sister Toni Braxton's shadow and become a singer in her own right. Jill comes on shooting off a loud, opinionated mouth at every turn, and claiming that she is hiding her authentic self behind her grossly obese shell. By the end of her incredibly long stint, we realized that Jill had used SO to revive a radio career that she sabotaged and destroyed with her foul temper and her arrest for theft (now she's a tv personality as well). SO moves into the realm of complete fantasy with Jill's "indictment", and they leave the audience wondering what to think after airing that ridiculous courtroom scene with actors and actresses playing courtroom personnel and spectators. Moving on, we learn that Christie wants to be a super-model, Antonia speaks of being an actress (or an English professor), and clinically depressed Niambi calls herself a model, athlete, singer, and actress. The viewing audience got tired of feeling stupid, and they were sick of investing in a scam. Most of the show stopped being relevant to women. And if we weren't sure that we were assessing the women's motives correctly, we need only refer to their post-SO blatant self-promotion through the use of web-sites, "reels", enrollments in rent-a-reality star programs, e-Bay sales, and the shameless antics they engage in to make their SO experience more than it ever was. They strip the show, and themselves, of all dignity.

The coaching also became more and more metaphysical, less practical. The lessons begin and end in selfishness, which is now described in less offensive terms -- now it's "being authentic". Gossip reigns, right is wrong, wrong is right, actors are hired to set up HG's to react in ways that will cause them to be "called out" by their SO sisters, commitments are made and routinely broken, LC's blatantly favor particular HG's, and the exercises take on a "do it or else" feel. Women are led to say things that may not really mean because the LC's can be intimidating ("I hate my mother", "I hate my father", "I hate...").

Instead of urging people to watch this cool new show on NBC, I find myself, not two seasons later, embarrased by my own commitment to it.

I know that words of truth and pearls of wisdom can and do fall from the lips of two disingenuous LC's. Truth is truth, even if it is spoken by someone who doesn't practice it. So I understand that there are die-hard fans who are happy to have the show in any form. They are willing to find the good in SO because it meant something to them at a difficult time. I'm not arguing that, but I do feel that these viewers are entitled to more than the crumbs that SO now offers.

The show committed suicide. There are a lot of people to blame, but in the end, there wasn't one person who could stand up and shout over the noise and confusion of this carnival, "Stop the insanity"!

Hey, you asked, lol.

"RE: Really, why the demise of SO"
Posted by SOfan0221 on 05-30-06 at 06:48 AM
::::Stands and applauds::::: ::::::wipes tear from eye::::::

Very well said Seasoned, it was beautiful and said eloquently my feelings as well. It summed up everything that has been going on in SO past 2 seasons.

Great job, as always.

"Many reasons - Some stayed too long, no versatility, too much acting............"
Posted by SOTellItLikeItIsFan on 05-30-06 at 08:14 AM
LAST EDITED ON 05-30-06 AT 09:15 AM (EST)

LAST EDITED ON 05-30-06 AT 08:16 AM (EST)

I hate to see SO leave also. It was one of the last good shows on TV without nudity and explicit sex. I have to say what contributed to SO demise was as many has said many people just wanted to be a star and get their 5 minutes of fame or should I say 8 weeks of fame hoping that maybe someone will see their "dramatics" and make them a star.

Season 2 and 3 were filled with women who had outrageous goals that SO couldn't handle and couldn't fix in the duration provided. We got tried of looking at most of these women because they weared out their welcome like Rachel, Allison, Towanda, Andy, Jodi, Christie, Jill, Josie, Lisa. The Season 1 women were excellent. That season was real and no one can touch it. The Season 1 women all had versatile goals. Not all were crybabies, not all were molested, raped, beat, had body issues and so on. Yes, people need help who have these problems but is the SO house for that? Plus, I think we got tried of seeing different people with the same stories as the person who places they took and as ones who were already in the house.

Season 1 women all had different goals that we all could relate to. Maureen wanted to be a comedian, Nyanza wanted to find authenticity, Lori wanted to be more social and release past hurts and become a new person, Andy wanted to basically be more open and trusting, another girl wanted to go to college and prove that her painful, hard past wouldn't keep her down, there was a girl there who wanted to get out of the ghetto and off of welfare, Erica wanted to separate from her twin and live a separate life, one lady wanted to learn how to release control and enjoy her upcoming wedding, a mother and daughter wants to learn to get along, Amy wants to have a career outside of her husband....see all these different women and goals were fun to watch because all of us could find one we could relate to and it was fun watching them all blossom even if you couldn't relate.

Plus, the life coaches were more kinder, down to earth, more helpful in season 1 and early half of season 2. Rhonda this season got toooooooooo nasty and manipulative. It seems she just wanted to show off her body, especially boobs and nice, fashionable clothes. Iyanla was great in her first season but this season she got way out of control. Iyanla and Rhonda humiliated the women, even the SO women were shocked they weren't expecting that coming on the show. Iyanla and Rhonda would make people spill their guts by threats on the first day. Iyanla and Rhonda would make people seem as though they didn't know nothing, everything they did was wrong and to depend on them for everything, even thinking and then when the women would do everything the coaches said, the life coaches would tell them to think for themselves and so on. Board of Review was so fatal. The life coaches just humiliated the women. I will never forget Lisa in the baby dress this season and her acting like a baby which we saw reruned yesterday. Now I know the producers told her to set it up a notch and told her to do that, if not, then she needs to be in a mental hospital and needs real therapy. Rhonda could have gone about helping Lisa in a different way but again SO people thought the weird, crazy, humiliating stunts/exercises would shock and entertain us, yeah, it shocked us into not watching.

So, basically SO became more like a pity party and a controlling party. Everyone seemed as though they were acting. Season 1 was more real, people were truly themselves but as the show became more popular, I guess everyone involved with the show thought let's step it up a notch, more drama. They were wrong. As an old song use to say, the same thing it took to get what you want it's gonna take the same thing to keep it. Basically it means stick to the basics. They should of known what got the show popular in the first place will be the thing to keep it popular. I could see this show lasting longer but the show messed up moving to California close to Hollywood which says a lot. Season 2 we started seeing glamorous, pretty types with superficial goals. The show should have known that we fans would feel like we were betrayed when we hear of some of the SO women trying to be on other TV shows for exposure or trying to make it in show biz, automatically to us their goals seem fake and we suspect others. Towanda certainly didn't score with us, obviously, because her career hasn't taken off. She tried to play the part of a overlooked child of a famous family but even her own family said everything seen wasn't true. Towanda isn't a goody two shoes. While in the house, Towanda didn't even call home once, she knew better. I wonder do she think SO was a bad career movie?

I also liked the various looks of the women in the first season, some average, some pretty, some beautiful, some thin, some average, some big. Season 2 look of women changed, someone like Deborah stuck out like a sore thumb, she didn't fit that Hollywood type.

I think what would have been nice is every season change life coaches. Maybe we'll see a SO reunion 5 years from now.

"RE: Many reasons - Some stayed too long, no versatility, too much acting............"
Posted by Snidget on 05-30-06 at 08:39 AM
It is a fairly common complaint with reality shows when they go on to the second or third season.

The first batch of contestants seem to be there for the game, for the experience, for the whatever the goal of the show is. Once people see that you can get famous there can be issues with the second or third (or later) batch coming off as being there to get fame, which generally is not something that people like to watch as much. Sometimes the producers do not seem to get that authentic real people make good television. Yes you do need some drama in any show and conflict and all that to make a good story, but casting very different real people who are there for the goal of the show creates that all by itself most of the time. You do not need to cast DAW wannabes who only will be there for getting screen time to get drama and conflict. Real drama vs drama for drama's sake is always more compelling for me.

There was a lot of concern around here when "The Biggest Loser" went to the second season. Many who liked the first season as the people there really were there to change were concerned that season two would be all DAW's trying to get noticed. Luckily it seems the casting people for that show still managed to find people who wanted to lose weight and change their lives.

Sometime a show grows past that problem with better casting, but sometimes even a long running show will seem to want to do the "stunt casting" for drama sake or cast people that are there for fame reasons. There was one running of "The Amazing Race" that got bashed around here for casting way too many wannabe actors and models. This season I think they did pretty good getting a nice mix of real people. I think they learned that while some eye candy is nice on the race, all eye candy all the time just annoys people who like the race part of the show about a race.

So anyway, in conclusion, this is a common problem for reality tv in general and not something that only happened here. You would think that over time the overall tendancy would be to learn from the mistakes of others, but it seems that every show has to go through this issue.

"RE: Many reasons - Some stayed too long, no versatility, too much acting............"
Posted by SOTellItLikeItIsFan on 05-30-06 at 08:42 PM
Another bad move was bringing back graduates thinking we wanted to see them again because we liked them the previous seasons. Bringing Allison, Josie, Cassie, Sommer, Jill, Jessica back constantly was making me dislike them.

Yes, LA was distracting because they started thinking Hollywood stuff and even became Hollywood. Deborah from Season 2 would have had more success in the Season 1 house rather then Season 2 because that house was full of vain Hollywood types..

Rana was too nice for the show, so they bring in Iyanla because of her manipulative, tough love skills and because she was more of a big name.

Jill at her websites complain that were accusing her of wanting fame. Well, what do you expect us to think Jill, actions speak louder then words.

Also I was sick of seeing women with goals that were tooooooooo serious for SO. I rather have seen goals like the women of Season 1 had. I always hated when the life coaches would ask, why are you here and even the women wouldn't know, I guess they felt like ask the producers....duh....for fame.

"RE: Really, why the demise of SO"
Posted by smokeysmom on 05-30-06 at 11:59 AM
SR -- to be honest, your posts could never be too long for me. Your intelligent, insightful and thoughtful posts have been the best part of SO and these boards for me. (Forgive me, I gush!). I truly wish that you were an "analog" friend of mine and will truly miss you and your posts. Have you ever considered doing a blog -- a kind of "wise woman" commentary on whatever issue you'd like? For example, today the Today Show revealed that the famous "women over forty will never find a husband" statistic was a hoax -- I'd love to hear your, and other posters thoughts on topics like this. Anyway, you are wise, seasoned, completely refined -- and always "spot on".
"RE: Really, why the demise of SO"
Posted by SeasonedRefinement on 05-30-06 at 07:45 PM
smokeysmom,

Thank you so very much for sharing those unbelievably encouraging sentiments - and thanks for taking the time to read what I love to write. I'm at a loss for words -- and that doesn't happen very often (as you well know). I'm not sure what an analog friend is, and I don't want to go OT, so, if you want, drop me a PM.

Thanks again!

"RE: Really, why the demise of SO"
Posted by smokeysmom on 05-31-06 at 01:56 PM
SR,

No thanks needed! "Analog" friend was my little twist on "digital" friend -- (analog being sort of opposite of digital) -- i.e.; "real life" friend! (but not in a Jodi way, LOL!)

Is there a good place/link to find out about IM/PM? I'm on a Mac and don't use AOL for online -- so I'm not sure how that works. You're right about OT, apologies posters -- I know this is not a PM training forum.

OT: I think it is so true that once a reality show has been aired one time, it's almost impossible to keep the wannabe's from getting into the mix. And moving it to LA practically ensured that would happen -- I believe some of the DAWs even moved there, right?

Some of the participants must have been good enough "actors" to pass the screening as if they had real goals. And, I agree that at the end the production seemed to be LOOKING for those type of DAW's.

Oh, if only they could put that energy toward good instead of DAW'ing -- the 2006 equivalent of "evil".

"RE: Really, why the demise of SO"
Posted by beckettrep on 05-31-06 at 08:24 PM
SR, your post may have been lengthy but it is definitely worth the read. I hope anyone who is usually turned off (as I usually am, no patience LOL) takes the time to read your wonderful words of wisdom!! You certainly nailed it!!
"RE: Really, why the demise of SO"
Posted by L_11 on 07-08-06 at 02:31 PM
>Instead of urging people to watch
>this cool new show on
>NBC, I find myself, not
>two seasons later, embarrased by
>my own commitment to it.
>
>The show committed suicide. There
>are a lot of people
>to blame, but in the
>end, there wasn't one person
>who could stand up and
>shout over the noise and
>confusion of this carnival, "Stop
>the insanity"!


Like many, I had a hard time picking what of this post to quote back, to say nothing of all the other deeply eloquent posts in this thread. But the above struck the chord. A part of me feels a sense of wistful mourning that SO is over. Another part of me -- perhaps the larger part -- feels mortified that I ever got myself involved in this mess in the first place. Watching the last dregs of the re-runs this Summer, I often find myself wishing I could take a second shower. How could something that once meant so much, end up feeling like a nasty practical joke played on you by the mean girls in highschool.

For me, this last season of SO felt like a jar of cookies I once had in the cupboard. They were getting stale and they didn't taste very good to begin with, but I couldn't bring myself to throw them away because it had taken so much time and effort to make them (I don't cook ). I didn't like them, and noone needs 150 empty calories every day, but I kept eating them because they were there. For no better reason than because they were there. Cleaning the cupboard one day I dropped the jar and the cookies all over the floor, and I was finally able to sweep it all up and get it out of my life. And until now, I never thought about those cookies again. Once they were gone it was over, and I never needed to look back. That's how SO was feeling to me. And that's how it's cancellation feels to me now. In the weirdest, stupidest way I feel like I can go on with my life now, without having to worry about this assinine *thing* that I need to do for an hour in the morning.

But I, too, just had to stop in and say Goodbye. I won't miss SO, but I'll never forget it either. It meant a lot to me once. What caused it's demise prolly says more about our society than I care to think about, but maybe someday, someone out there will remember and start over in their own lives because of it.

Godspeed to you all.

"RE: Really, why the demise of SO"
Posted by banks on 05-30-06 at 09:45 AM
I just got interested in season 3 because of the object lessons for the SO house guests. Most of the lessons hit the problems right on the head. Although, Lisa 1's dressing up like a baby might have been more of a hazing tactic than anything else.

Lisa 1 and Niambi did it for me. Neither of them made progress and showed a repetitive pattern of doing the same thing over and over with little or no insight. Dr. Stan needed to have picked up on that and moved these women on to medication.

The graduation mush also got to be too much of the same old same old.

I would watch again if women who show no progress are moved out sooner.


"RE: Really, why the demise of SO"
Posted by alaholly on 05-30-06 at 10:40 AM
Insightful posts up thread. There certainly are lots of feelings about the death of this show.

Many of us originally got hooked for the "therapy" of it all. Watching real women like ourselves work through "issues" like our own and come out successfully or at least better off than before. I even jotted down notes occasionally after a show that was particularly helpful. And I too used to suggest to other people that they watch the show but ended up being a "closet" watcher and told no one. It just got too stupid.

And like all reality shows, the first season's original cast members hadn't seen the show and didn't know what to expect so the actions and reactions were more natural. Then came the wannabes, many who had tried out for other reality shows. That should have been a dead give away about their real intent.

The casting was all wrong. They needed real women with real problems. No wannabe actors and models. At least no obvious ones. And no women with such severe issues that TV LC's couldn't handle them. Though Kim (Season 3) seemed to benefit somewhat (in her case anything was better than nothing), her childhood trauma was too much for a TV show. And Niambi needed a real Dr. who could help her with her clinical depression. And like Bethany, or Cassie's reunion with her son, it should not have been dealt with on TV. There should have been much better screening of potential house guests.

If there was going to be another show, each woman should be assigned a real therapist as well as a life coach on an ongoing basis. Not just an occasional visit from Dr. Stan who many of the women seemed to feel the need to flirt with. They could have used a qualified female therapist who could really deal with their problems and not just force them into silly made-for-TV exercises.

"RE: Really, why the demise of SO"
Posted by creepyoldwoman on 05-30-06 at 12:00 PM
I agree with a lot of these posts. It really sounds like we all really cared about this show. I find myself getting more and more angry with each passing day at its demise. I find I am really lashing out at the HG's who are profitting from our viewership.

In addition, I also think that they should not have moved to LA. LA has everything at its disposal. You can't just go out anywhere and make a mask of your face.

You don't have to work or research to find a new career or even some normal employment. Why work in a wall paper shop when you can be an animal trainer? I also think they lost that element of mother nature that they had in chicago. Mother nature humbles us , puts things into perspective. Platos 3 fights, man vs man, man vs nature, man vs himself. Well, they pulled out man vs nature and pitted the women against each other.

They also needed to get out and meet people. In Chicago they had neighbors and such. In LA, they were isolated. Nobody but each other to practice their new found skills on unless they ventured out to that mall where they did some real humilating exercises putting them at the mercy of the general public. I always cringed during those exercises where they had to approach total strangers and demand judgemental answers from them.

More Loris, Susans, Jennifer Bernhardts, Sinaes, Cassie 1, TJ's

Less Kim bookouts, Christies, Jills, Audrys , Jessica Hollands, etc. Sadly, this list is too long.

I think Sommer was the beginning of the end for me. When she sold her clothes on Ebay after she was booted out. I accepted Hailey and Lynell selling their crochet stuff because Lynell was trying to make a new career. But Sommer was the first of the E-bay stuff for me and I felt taken advantage of.

I also didn't watch the couples. I think they should have been sent to a qualified couples therapist.

I liked DR.Stan and thought he was a good addition.

"RE: Really, why the demise of SO"
Posted by beckettrep on 05-31-06 at 09:09 PM
>I just got interested in season
>3 because of the object
>lessons for the SO house
>guests. Most of the
>lessons hit the problems right
>on the head. Although,
>Lisa 1's dressing up like
>a baby might have been
>more of a hazing tactic
>than anything else.
>
>Lisa 1 and Niambi did it
>for me. Neither of
>them made progress and showed
>a repetitive pattern of doing
>the same thing over and
>over with little or no
>insight. Dr. Stan needed
>to have picked up on
>that and moved these women
>on to medication.
>
>The graduation mush also got to
>be too much of the
>same old same old.
>
>I would watch again if women
>who show no progress are
>moved out sooner.
>
>
>

You really zeroed in on 2 of the biggest fakes ever - neither Lisatwit nor Numb-ambi had ANY intention of changing - Lisatwit didn't have and I'm sure STILL doesn't have any real intention of working a full-time job and becoming self-supporting. Numb-ambi didn't have and I'm sure STILL doesn't have any real intention of dumping 'situation' man. So I have to ask myself why they were even there? With Lisatwit, at least to me, it was obvious - she was bored and looked upon being on SO as a lark, something to pass the time, pacify what has GOT to be an otherwise boring existence. As for Numb-ambi I'm stumped - she is obviously an introvert - seems to feel uncomfortable around anyone but another black woman - so why she would choose to go on tv and share a house with 5 other women, knowing all the time the majority of these women would be white, is beyond me. I can only assume she was just looking for another way to have situation man 'notice' her - I could be off the mark but somehow I don't think I'd be off by much.

"RE: Really, why the demise of SO"
Posted by jonimoni on 05-30-06 at 12:02 PM
LAST EDITED ON 05-30-06 AT 12:08 PM (EST)

What killed it for me was the change in mantra. At the begining they were teaching that no matter what your parents did, or your spouse, etc...only YOU can change your life. When they got into the second season with held over Josie the change began, they seemed to be sneaking in a subtle message that everything really was all her mom's fault. Eventually the message was no longer subtle, it was Everything that you are suffering from really IS ALL your parents, or granparents as it may be, fault!!! BS, none of us grew up in Beaver Cleaver's house and even if your parents are as big a waste of skin and hair as Kim's parents, being happy as an adult is your own job. Get off the blame train and change your own life!! SpitupLisa is a 40something year old woman, if her life sucks....it is nolonger mommy and daddy's fault...pick your foot up off the floor and kick yourself in the butt and do what YOU have to do to make it great! Good grief they even tried to make us believe that Cassie and her decades of alcholism, drug use and lack of responsibility was the fault of an almost rapist!!! WTF? In the first season they would have been asking her what SHE could do to change it, not what her mom, the a-mom and the almost rapist did to cause it..... The focus became blame based therapy instead of personal responsibility based life changes.....Ok, way too long, sorry.

edited for spelling....oops!

"RE: Really, why the demise of SO"
Posted by AshLanie on 06-01-06 at 08:35 AM
>LAST EDITED ON 05-30-06
>AT 12:08 PM (EST)
>
>What killed it for me was
>the change in mantra.
>At the begining they were
>teaching that no matter what
>your parents did, or your
>spouse, etc...only YOU can change
>your life. When they
>got into the second season
>with held over Josie the
>change began, they seemed to
>be sneaking in a subtle
>message that everything really was
>all her mom's fault. Eventually
>the message was no longer
>subtle, it was Everything that
>you are suffering from really
>IS ALL your parents, or
>granparents as it may be,
>fault!!! BS, none of
>us grew up in Beaver
>Cleaver's house and even if
>your parents are as big
>a waste of skin and
>hair as Kim's parents, being
>happy as an adult is
>your own job. Get
>off the blame train and
>change your own life!!
>SpitupLisa is a 40something year
>old woman, if her life
>sucks....it is nolonger mommy and
>daddy's fault...pick your foot up
>off the floor and kick
>yourself in the butt and
>do what YOU have to
>do to make it great!
> Good grief they even
>tried to make us believe
>that Cassie and her decades
>of alcholism, drug use and
>lack of responsibility was the
>fault of an almost rapist!!!
> WTF? In
>the first season they would
>have been asking her what
>SHE could do to change
>it, not what her mom,
>the a-mom and the almost
>rapist did to cause it.....
> The focus became blame
>based therapy instead of personal
>responsibility based life changes.....Ok, way
>too long, sorry.
>
>edited for spelling....oops!


You hit it on the head.......the blame game...blame others for your problems.


Also, like to add the contradictions of the show and or *contestants*:

Cassietwo was the biggest offender:

First time she was on ehr story was she began drinking at age 12 or 13 (She never was clear about thst) and was almost raped at 16 when she began to skip and eventually quit school. Then as time went on the age of her almost rape began to shrink. Hence the show blamed the almost rape on her drinking and drugging.

Also, when she first came to the house she said she ahd been sober and drug free for only four years.....next time on she says she has been since age 26 or 27? Again, years are taken off (10years in this case).


I could go on and on about Cassietwo but have a different example of the integrity of the show:

Season two: Layne

She and the show allowed her to claim she had three fiancee's and had never been married.....but wait, on a one on one with Dr. Stan she admits she had married the first one but never told her family etc. She says she was young but not too young as to have the need to have her parnts signature/s. After this admission though, she continues to use the term: three fiancee's. Wonder how she as an attorney justifies to others that she was never married?

The there is Lynell and Hailey.....(end of season two)....ex hubby and dad who was am editor on John Wayne movies and who, while they were on the show, viewwrs could see in the credits someone name Blue.....Hailey has a son name Blue.....and voila, next season no Blue in the credits.

Then there were the past models and actors to many too mention here.....Rhonda ( http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0110137/) being the leader of the pack of those. (Saw her on Married With Children repeat and she was better off attempting to be an LC).


Now comes the scripted in scenes: The fire and break in. Neither of which were ever on any public record. And Rhonda, at one of those gatherings that they ahd during season two, told on audience that the break in would be addressed and solved by the end of season two. Good markting stragety (That was Rhonda's degree-Marketing)...when the ratings were dropping she keeps viewers watching to see *whodunit*.


And as for the daytime award the show received:

The award was for editing for season one......season three we see the show not mentioned for any awards for season two. It was a first special category: Editing for a daytime reality show...Wonder how much networking the producers spent getting that category in?


Another contracidtion:

One does not need a man (IV's name for them: BOOBOO-ewe) to have a fulfilling live yet they were, for the most part, always sending ladies out on dates etc.

What is sad is that ChrisH first season probally would have gone on to graduate in season three....


Oh the couples shows......shaking head.....nothing like endorsing and even counseling them on how to live together.


The show lost its focus point and didn't seem to care to listen to the viewers. We, the viewers, became secondary and when that happens ratings go down and show is canceled.


"RE: Really, why the demise of SO"
Posted by eire_heart74 on 05-30-06 at 12:41 PM
There seems to be something with a first season, that's when the magic is there. There are no established codes or rules to follow. WHat happens is real and fresh. Like most reality shows, it's become stale and with a formula. One that has really ticked off many of it's fans.

First mistake, leaving for LA. Never should of moved it. Alot less distractions when it was in Chicago.

Second Mistake, kicking first season life coach Rana out. Hands down her down to earth let's look at life realistically approach was not gimmicky enough for them. Such a shame because she really got her clients ready for leaving.

I think there were women there that went on with the right idea. Candy, Sinae, Jennifer, TJ but then you have the Lisa from this season, the jump start my hollywood career types, Jill and Towanda. It just lost me.

I even liked Alison the first time around until the day she revealed her debt was largely due to her shopping addiction. I was sick to my stomach to think that thousands of her fans were milked into sending her money for her medical care.

I hate to see the show go because as I stay at home mom, it was my little me time. My son would nap while I would eat lunch and watch it. But it rans it's course.

"RE: Really, why the demise of SO"
Posted by BlingBlong on 05-30-06 at 03:07 PM
"There seems to be something with a first season, that's when the magic is there."

Right, just like the Apprentice has down downhill too over time.

"RE: Really, why the demise of SO"
Posted by BlowingOver on 05-30-06 at 04:06 PM
Initially, I got a lot out of this show.

The exercises were relevant to my life, and I did a lot of them at home.

BUT . . . when it got to baby clothes, rubber rafts, cages, selling beads, etc. . . . and the women were too socially inept to get along and work together, instead devoting their energies towards being petty and nasty . . . it became exhausting to watch.

SO just lost me.

I went from having Starting Over change my life to participating in the "Be A Houseguest" thread . . .

"RE: Really, why the demise of SO"
Posted by SOTellItLikeItIsFan on 05-30-06 at 08:43 PM
Another bad move was bringing back graduates thinking we wanted to see them again because we liked them the previous seasons. Bringing Allison, Josie, Cassie, Sommer, Jill, Jessica back constantly was making me dislike them.
Yes, LA was distracting because they started thinking Hollywood stuff and even became Hollywood. Deborah from Season 2 would have had more success in the Season 1 house rather then Season 2 because that house was full of vain Hollywood types..

Rana was too nice for the show, so they bring in Iyanla because of her manipulative, tough love skills and because she was more of a big name.

Jill at her websites complain that were accusing her of wanting fame. Well, what do you expect us to think Jill, actions speak louder then words.

Also I was sick of seeing women with goals that were tooooooooo serious for SO. I rather have seen goals like the women of Season 1 had. I always hated when the life coaches would ask, why are you here and even the women wouldn't know, I guess they felt like ask the producers....duh....for fame.

"RE: Really, why the demise of SO"
Posted by SeasonedRefinement on 06-06-06 at 08:49 PM
Hey guys, would you indulge me for one moment?

Blowing Over -

I've been wanting to compliment you on your parody of Dr. Stan on the BTHG thread for the longest time, but that thread isn't the place to do it because we have to remain "in character", lol. Finally, you've posted out here!

Those little word pictures you paint -- for example, Dr. Stan adjusting his velvet jacket and 70's turtleneck -- they are brilliant. He doesn't have to say a word, just looking at him through your eyes is hysterical.

Thanks for the laughter! But what a sad commentary on the show, huh? From the sublime to the ridiculous.

"RE: Really, why the demise of SO"
Posted by 26mitogo on 05-31-06 at 10:58 AM
Shazbot GREAT topic! Obviously this was a great idea, especially now.

I too have a lot to say on this topic but feel those ahead of me said it as well and even better than I ever could have. I'll just echo ... my sentiments exactly to most of what has been said.

SR ~ Make 'em as long as you want ... they are always exceptional. I will ditto smokeysmom's sentiment: >> "to be honest, your posts could never be too long for me. Your intelligent, insightful and thoughtful posts have been the best part of SO and these boards for me. (Forgive me, I gush!)." <<

I also put in a solid vote for the rest of smokeysmom's ideas:
>> "Have you ever considered doing a blog -- a kind of "wise woman" commentary on whatever issue you'd like? ... you are wise, seasoned, completely refined -- and always 'spot on'." <<

This thread has by far been the best this year. It reminded me why I innitially LOVED SO, why I watched & rewatched each episode, and why I made permanent copies of the 1st two yrs. I had forgotten just how honest and helpful the show was ... how pure the goals of the HG, how caring the LCs, how common the struggles were, and how relatable each episode was to myself & every woman I knew. I was reminded of how caring even Rhonda seemed at the beginning and how real she was as she approached each woman. I now recall how each woman truly touch the heart of Rana and how she longed for these women to break through her personal barriers. I'd forgotten that the reason I watched was because I loved seeing these women, who's circumstances had led them to loose hope and their belief in themselves, actually learn to see themselves for the capable, strong, effective individuals they are. I was elated, strengthened, and encouraged as each woman realized that her dreams were not only still alive inside but they were also still possible.

I started watching the show during a very dark time in my own life ... when my own dreams were snuffed out by a sudden devistating illness that several times almost took my life. It left me with no hope of ever enjoying the life I'd worked so hard for and managed to achieve against all odds. I came from an abusive & unloving home but never believed that was a life I was destined to continue. I worked hard to overcome the messages I was raised with, learned to love unconditionally, found all my dreams were possible and was living every one I'd dared dream. Just to loose so much when I lost my strength and grit. Everything I'd gained had been the result of fight, determination, and personal power. When I lost those, I didn't know how to go on. I had no other "tools". I'd renewed relationships with each of my own family and thought I'd healed much of the past. But when it came down to it and I actually needed them, they all turned their backs on me. Without my ability to "feed" them, they had no use for me. I'd lost what I thought I could always count on ... my own strength & will and the family I thought I'd gained.

Thankfully, I had my wonderful husband and my adorable daughter (who was not really old enough yet to understand how to be there for an adult). However, my husband was going through his own inner battle. He was never allowed to grieve his mother's death from an ugly battle with leukemia when he was only 13. My disabling illness not only left him a single dad caring for an invalid, much of it was just too familiar. No one in the SOH1 was struggling the same battle I was but every woman's issues were applicable to my own situation. SO gave me something to look forward to every day and something to reflect on throughout those dark and seemingly endless days. I was one of many who could honestly say I had SO to thank ... possibly for my life. There were too many days I wasn't sure how to wake up in the morning and WANT to continue living, especially when I was given no hope there would ever be any improvement in my condition. I wouldn't physically die, I would just continue to live out the 2nd half of my life confined to my bed. I'd been an athlete all my life ... active ... a marathon runner/tennis player/biker/skiier/swimmer/you name it. There was nothing "sit still" that I had ever enjoyed. This was a death sentence to me but I knew that for the sake of my loving husband and wonderful daughter, I HAD to find something to hold onto. SO helped me sort through much of it. Sure, it was a television program 1st, but it had value.

When SO began to morph into the waste of time & space it is now, I was hurt, angry, sickened, and deeply upset. I know there are many who, just like me, could benefit from something positive and powerful that may help them hold onto hope through whatever they are suffering. It has only been in the last 6 months that it's looked like I may slowly begin to occasionally enjoy a few of the things that made my life fulfilling. I will be fine without SO. And after I realized this year was a complete wash, I continued watching to see just how bad a train wreck it could become and to join the rest of you here, laughing at the antics of so many out of control DAWs. It was my way of not feeling sad & angry about the change in the show & the LCs.

Again, up-thread posters, thank you for reminding me where this show began, why I never missed an episode, and how much I learned. It also helped me see how far I've come & how much I have to be thankful for.

I said "good bye" to the Starting Over show a long time ago. Now I say ... "Adios" to the Freak Show!!

"RE: Really, why the demise of SO"
Posted by SeasonedRefinement on 05-31-06 at 06:34 PM
SOfan0221,

Thank you for your kind words. That was very sweet of you. I'm glad you could relate!

26mitogo,

You're no slouch yourself, lady! You got me with that last post. I'll talk to you soon.

Smokeysmom,

I don't think the PM feature is affected by what computer you use. To PM (personal messasge) someone else, you click on the PM icon on their post (second icon I think - it has a little envelope). To check your inbox, click on the inbox icon when you log in. I'll PM you.

"RE: Really, why the demise of SO"
Posted by Shazbot on 05-31-06 at 09:20 PM
Wow - great thoughts everyone!

Eire_Heart - I agree, something happened when they moved out to LA. Flying too close to the sun perhaps.

Creepyoldwoman - I wouldn't worry too much about the houseguests profiting from SO viewers... I'd really be surprised if any of them are able to make a living from it.

26mitogo - I agree, there was a purity to the houseguests and how their issues were handled in season 1. I've never stopped missing it.

Snidget - I can see how reality shows lose their mojo after the first season... but I guess the altruistic side of me thinks there was an attempt by SO to not be like other reality shows... and that it could've continued working.

"RE: Really, why the demise of SO"
Posted by Shazbot on 05-31-06 at 09:50 PM
SR - I think you covered everything, and I must say brilliantly so. I agree with whoever suggested you should be writing somewhere... hopefully you are.

You say:
From my perspective, it helps to remember that B/M never claimed to be organization dedicated to transforming and empowering women - not really.
The fact that I used to forget the true motivation for producing the show is a testament to their talent.
--------------------------------------------------------------
- This is the crux of it. I think B/M ensured with casting perhaps that an element of truth would always run through their shows. Starting Over definitely lost the truth.


Iyanla would grab the attention of everyone and not let it go. Her diction, her body language, her facial expressions, her wardrobe, her essence -- it was all oozing with drama and fanfare.
----------------------------------------------------------------
- I never quite made that distinction, but you're right, she was all about that killer stare... and what was that about?


Rhonda's demeanor and approach changed as well. My personal opinion is that she didn't want to play second fiddle to Iyanla. I'm sure she had her own internal struggles in coming to terms with the changes, but on the exterior she changed, and it was for the worse. She became smug, sarcastic, and she frowned alot.
----------------------------------------------------------------
- Yeah, I noticed too that she came to bare her teeth and curl her lip. She reminded me of Sylvester the cat or some other cartoon character.


Suddenly publicity hounds were getting cast on the show. Many viewers could not relate to "dreams of stardom" or delusions of grandeur.
----------------------------------------------------------------
- That was a significant change. They alienated their core audience, and I doubt they attracted a sensational viewership. What did they think they were doing?


The coaching also became more and more metaphysical, less practical. The lessons begin and end in selfishness, which is now described in less offensive terms -- now it's "being authentic".
----------------------------------------------------------------
- Oh... that's a great debate point. Where does authentic end and selfishness begin? Perhaps lessons in selfLESSness would've been healing for all. "Being authentic" sounded mildly cult-like. If only authentic women had been cast in the first place.


The show committed suicide. There are a lot of people to blame, but in the end, there wasn't one person who could stand up and shout over the noise and confusion of this carnival, "Stop the insanity"!
----------------------------------------------------------------
- This was exactly my feeling. No one stood up... and many acted stupidly... stupidly because I think there was a viewership to be had. What were they all thinking? Why didn't anyone stand up? SO was the only reason I turned the tv on in the afternoon. Now I won't be turning it on at all. Megan Mulally's squeely voice ain't gonna do it for me.

"RE: Really, why the demise of SO"
Posted by staceeturner on 05-31-06 at 09:21 PM
WOW! Seasoned Refinement, what you said, that was awesome and not only did I read it once I re-read a 2nd time.

short&sassy

"RE: Really, why the demise of SO"
Posted by staceeturner on 05-31-06 at 09:25 PM
OH I forgot to add that there was a time in the first season that it was being aired at 3:30 in the morning and I remeber (yes I was a fanatic at that time) I would set my alarm to get up and watch it go back to bed and go to work in three more hours but theese last coupla years I really did not care that I had to miss one or two episodes, always catch up at some time, but yeah there is really nothing I can add that was not said by Seasoned Refinement.. Peace

short&sassy

"RE: Really, why the demise of SO"
Posted by kawyar on 06-02-06 at 02:55 PM
26, you wrote a very touching post. Thank you for sharing that part of you. It matters to me.

"RE: Really, why the demise of SO"
Posted by jennyhead on 05-31-06 at 09:33 PM
Well I agree with everything you all said, and will add that from a tv show's point of view, the producers made the mistake of not trusting their audience. We loved season 1, so why change it so drastically? Do they think we are so stupid we cannot tell a quality program from trash? And it got worse each season. As much as I would love to see the show continued, it desperately needs its own makeover! Rumor has it that Rhonda and Dr. Stan are trying to get something similar going. If they are reading this, I hope they realize that the fans are so much more interested in real life issues, not the drama-mama's. No more wannabes please. We will happily take our chances on watching real women who have chubby thighs, crooked teeth, bratty kids, crappy jobs, and yet still have the light of life burning withing. That's what I want to see. And no more couples please. Maybe have a men's house because they need it as much as we women do. And definitely more Dr. Stan please.
"RE: Really, why the demise of SO"
Posted by SeasonedRefinement on 06-01-06 at 01:01 AM
beckettrep, Shazbot, and staceeturner: you are all too kind. Thanks so much. It looks like we're all on the same page on this one.


"RE: Really, why the demise of SO"
Posted by Marigold on 06-02-06 at 09:41 AM
Well for me the problem is that I can't keep up with the time the show is on. They seem to change it so much, who can keep up. Here in NC season 2 ended and they started it again with the beginning of season 2. I don't know what's going on with this show. If they keep changing they'll be the only ones watching it.

"RE: Really, why the demise of SO"
Posted by Toushay on 06-02-06 at 12:01 PM
Once upon a time, there thrived a tiny universe that existed to help troubled women. They called it “Starting Over”. It grew up in the blue collar town of Chicago. The leaders were the two good witches of the East. The third good witch was one of the creators. One day, the creators got tired of the snow and ice of the wicked and boring north country. They decided, like the Beverly Hillbillies, they would move to Californiay… so they packed up the truck, found a new batch of females and relocated to sunny LA. But one of their good TV witches was not asked to come along. The creators had been approached by a bigger, more powerful Mother witch, and she took over. She not only took over the witchery, she demanded control of the entire production. By now, the good witch of the creators had become ill and went off to the great fairyland in the sky, leaving her partner vulnerable to the dark and powerful Mother witch.

To make the vulnerable creator feel better, casting located a female with a very tragic problem. And some others to make up the troubled cast of the program. Things went along pretty good in the first year on the sunny coast, because everyone could go to the beach every day, and no one could discern the seasons, which made the editor witch very happy. He was so happy he worked day and night and earned the program its first big daytime Emmy award! Everyone celebrated. But the powerful Mother witch was not happy because she did not get an award. She began to meddle and became very strange and mysterious.

In the final season of the show, the powerful Mother witch had complete control over everyone. She decided what the cast members problems were and how to bend them to her will. The award winning editor liked this, because he had a lot of fun stuff to work with. Eventually he got himself yet another Emmy award for his work. But there were problems between the two TV witches. Soon they were not together very often, and the good TV witch rarely smiled. The powerful Mother witch looked very scary and acted out strange rituals with water and string and falling off sofas. She brought in women with bad problems. Or maybe it was bad women with big problems. The loyal fans became distressed as they watch their favorite program become twisted and torn. Anger took over their minds as they focused on the powerful Mother witch. Slowly her influence began to corrupt the fan base. Hundreds began to change and they began to suck up the lifeblood of the program, attacking all parts of it and growing more discontent.

Powerful Mother witch sensed that she had accomplished all she wanted to in this venue, and on a whim decided to seek out another parallel universe to infect. One day she was not around. The discontent fans swarmed in anger, and took on the whole cast and crew. Only the award winning editor escaped, using his two Emmy awards to swat off the attackers as he left Hollywood to return to the snowy north country.

The deed was done. All was lost. The women took what they could and sold it on eBay to get by, being left with no support and still troubled bad girls. But wait…there might be an answer in the distance….
The vulnerable creator was getting strong again. He was creating a new place for bad girls to go! He called up some of his worst bad girls and offered them shelter and $600 a week to star in his new creation. The powerful Mother witch called on the vulnerable creator, offering to take over so he could go rest up and swim in the sunny ocean near the sharks. But that is future story….for now all we know is that a wandering army of discontent fans is seeking a new place to spawn…

we have seen…

the creation…

of…


THE ANTI-FAN

"Brava! Brava!"
Posted by mysticwolf on 06-02-06 at 12:45 PM
This was good! Too funny!


Puppy Lvoe from Tribe blogging's scary

"RE: Brava! Brava!"
Posted by Toushay on 06-02-06 at 12:58 PM
Thanks for the kudos! I am smiling a wolfish smile! It took me about 15 minutes to write that! But it rolled around in my brain for about an hour before I sat down to pound it out.
"RE: Brava! Brava!"
Posted by tac_2 on 06-02-06 at 01:34 PM
Toushay, I loved it!

Brilliant.

"RE: Brava! Brava!"
Posted by BimBo on 06-02-06 at 02:13 PM
Toushay... Well Done. I really enjoyed reading that!!
"RE: Brava! Brava!"
Posted by BlingBlong on 06-03-06 at 09:56 PM
I second that thought!
"RE: Really, why the demise of SO"
Posted by creepyoldwoman on 06-03-06 at 08:14 AM
Well, eventually even the ANTI-FAN gets very bored and goes onto more interesting targets. So, they need to strike while the iron is hot, get their agents, do their PR, come onto this "meanness forum" and quickly bash us, while we are still going though withdrawal from a show that meant so much to a lot of us.Time is short. Summer is here and by fall, with the new lineup, all will be in the past.

This was very well written Toushay. Am I assuming correctly that you are saying that Iylana is getting involved with the new Bad Girls show?

"RE: Really, why the demise of SO"
Posted by Toushay on 06-03-06 at 09:59 AM
LAST EDITED ON 06-06-06 AT 06:44 PM (EST)

Iyanla and Bad Girls? No clue! Probably not!

Iyanla at blame? Hmmmm….let’s see. Yes and no. No, the story is pure fiction, of course. Yes, based on her background information available to anyone on the internet.

Iyanla and Oprah: she wanted control, Oprah said good-bye. A Yoruba priestess and ordained minister, Iyanla was catapulted to fame when Oprah Winfrey chose one of her books, Yesterday, I Cried, (Simon & Schuster), as an Oprah Book Club selection. She was working out a tv show with Oprah when they disagreed and she then went to Barbara Walters.

Iyanla and Barbara Walters: she wanted control, called Barbara a b#$%^, and Barbara said good-bye. She was overheard by Barbara…end of opportunity.

Iyanla and SO: she wanted control, and the universe said good-bye. As the self-described “Aha coach”, Vanzant believes that she is the one who detects the “underlying cause” of a woman’s problem.

"RE: Really, why the demise of SO"
Posted by sunshinedrop on 06-02-06 at 02:42 PM
For me, the entrance of Iyanla ruined it for me. Now, I'm not one of those fervid Iyanla bashers, but that more than the move to LA is what I think turned the show. I thought Dr. Stan coming in at the same time might off set it, but unfortunately there was too little Dr. Stan. She was just largely impractical in her approach. I never feel like I get much from reading self-help books with a Christian slant (my faith of choice) because it seems as though there are bigger beliefs that need to go along with the help the books offer (believing Jesus plays a certain role in your life is required for this particular exercise to work). I feel the same happens for me when I would hear Iyanla's exercises. Instead of Christian, her background is some sort of traditional African nature worship thing, I think (I know someone will correct me if I am wrong) but all her exercises seemed to need that belief background to be applicable. I didn't buy alot of her approach, and I don't think the HG's did either. I think her motherly support helped much more than the yelling to the universe.

Speaking of mothers, she also had a fixation on mother and father issues. A little of this goes a long way, but she seemed to seek out these issues in every guest. She had to prove to Jodi that even though her relationship with her mom seemed wonderful, that there was really some problem there that had to be fixed. I had a therapist suggest that I confront my parents once and I refused because I knew it would do no good...only stir up more problems. That is why I was so happy that Antonia refused to contact her dad so vehemently. Not everyone needs to have fierce conversations with their parents.

I also agree with the other posters about the difference in HG's that happened about the same time Iyanla came, but I think that is more a result of Dr. Stan coming. I think they saw during season 1 that SO was not set up to help the likes of Christine H because she had real psychological issues-depression. So, season 2 they brought in Dr. Stan, which was great, I loved him to death, but instead of addressing the psychological issues of the kind of HG's they had in season 1, I think casting people thought that meant the SO house could handle people with deeper issues and that is how it got thrown off the origional track. They needed a Dr. Stan to assist with women like the ones in season 1, not have him cure women with serious issues. I can't believe what they did to Niambi. That was horrible. They didn't even send her for treatment like they did with Season 2 Karen. They just let her go. They became irresponsible.

"RE: Really, why the demise of SO"
Posted by creepyoldwoman on 06-03-06 at 07:28 AM
I was actually thinking about this question a lot. I think the problem I really have is, that this show taught me so much and then it whores itself out to sponsers, Ethan Allen. Antonia should have done something real like work in that bead shop or McDonalds.

In addition, I begin to question what learned. One of my degrees is in Criminal Justice. My first professor I ever had in this field ended up in jail himself. He broke his gay lover out of prison by throwing a wirecutter into the prison yard. I know, sort of unbelievable but it really happened, when I was in college in NY. So, I was like a semester into my study when this happened and I began to question everything he ever taught in class. Well, like my hubby says, even dynamite can be used for good and originally it was made to help out miners. Its uses though became deadly in the wrong hands. So, although my teacher didn't apply the knowledge to his own life in an acceptable manner, I had the same knowledge and applied it to my life quite differently, after extensive fact checking.


I also applied what I learned in SO, I can not say the same for some of the HG's. I don't think SO2 and SO3 prepared anyone for their time after their stay was over with. I think they exposed internal strife and issue after issue quite nicely. They exposed it for myself as well but then they left us all hanging. Ok, now I know why I act this way however how do I heal? Then what is the next step? Dr. Stan could have helped with this more.
SO1 was much better at preparation. I remember Rana and Erica sitting in a coffee show with big white oaktag paper hanging down. Rana was going through all of Ericas plans for life and marriage. Especially, how she was gong to pay for it. To see it all set out in black and white, not swimming around in the brain made everything clear.

The HGs that go on to selling ther stuff on Ebay just examplifies this feeling. Wow. How prepared for life was Christina? I feel like they made a mockery of the show. There's a few from SO3 where it may have worked for them. Lisa1, I don't see her on Myspace or E-bay. She would have been one of the first I would have thought to get involved in Myspace and all of the post show theatrics. Perhaps she overdosed on it herself while at the house. Anyway, although she stayed too long , I think perhaps it helped her.

"RE: Really, why the demise of SO"
Posted by geminirose on 06-02-06 at 05:04 PM
I started questioning SO's integrity when Towanda and Vanessa were introduced to the show. I understand that everyone has problems, but to include "celebrities" on the show seemed like a ratings ploy on SO's part and a desperate attempt to get back in the spotlight on Towanda's and Vanessa's part. It just became a tv show at that point, not a house of healing and growing and learning.

Also, I really hated the Hollywood cliffhangers on Fridays or before tv breaks (i.e., Christmas). Will she or wont she graduate? Will she or wont she meet her son? Find out on Monday. I hated that. I expect cliffhangers from Lost, not from SO.

This past season was a beating. The show completely shifted from integrity to irresponsibility (for example: Kelly gets an "A" because she wants one? I still dont know why Jodi was in the house. Christie leaves the house without proper treatment for her alcoholism, pill problem, marriage, etc-- and she also left the house a weaker, more codependent, judgmental person than when she entered. We find out through Niambi-- not the LC's -- that she was clinically depressed and then she's abandoned. And dont get me started on the million and one chances Lisa1 had to stay in the house).

The return of previous housemates also bothered me. And making Layne and Jodi mentors bothered me even more.

I realized that the show was nothing but mindless entertainment when I was no longer concerned with missing episodes of SO. I didnt record episodes if I wasnt going to be home at 2. If I was at home, I just didnt watch episodes at times. And when I did watch, I started falling asleep during episodes.

I agree with many of the posts about how at one time this was a really great, genuine show. I wont call or sign any petition to have the show return next season. I already watch enough trash on tv.

"RE: Really, why the demise of SO"
Posted by staceeturner on 06-03-06 at 02:09 PM
You know (I just want to add) That it is a VERY good thing that, Bethany decided not to stay, her situation was and is REAL and maybe she had the sense enough about her to realize that this show is a mockery of women and there "Issues", and got out before it was too late, with that said I hope that she did get the help she needed, which was not to go on national television with a bunch of messed up women, who had no real major, drama, life threating,gut wrenching problems,as to where Bethany really needed something like DR.Phil or just plain therapy..JMHO.

short&sassy

"RE: Really, why the demise of SO"
Posted by BlingBlong on 06-03-06 at 09:59 PM
Maybe in the beginning they got people to watch because they were looking for answers to their own problems. And over time, they figured out solutions. So now, no one is left to watch! They put themselves out of business.

Not that I am suggesting they were good, but maybe people took some ideas from the show and worked out their own problems.

"RE: Really, why the demise of SO"
Posted by creepyoldwoman on 06-04-06 at 02:24 PM
I may have found the culprit. lol. let's get him! just kidding the article is slanted in such a way as to imply that since this editor left, SO was cancelled.

This is from Pike Press about Steve Mellon.

"I was on a team of 15 editors who worked on a daytime NBC reality show, "Starting Over" Mellon said. "We were nominated last year and didn't win. We were really disappointed. We thought we had a chance. So this year when we were nominated, we decided to go to the ceremony just to have a good time. We really didn't expect to win. It was a surprise when our name was called."
Mellon said the group of 15 split into teams of two and worked on every sixth show of "Starting Over," but that in the nominating process, the entire team received the nod.
Mellon said the ceremony was held at Hollywood and Highland, in the same place as the Academy Awards but on a different day and in a different hall. "We were not in the Kodak Center," he said.
Mellon has since left the crew of "Starting Over," a reality show about a group of women changing their lives around and living in the same house. Since his departure, the show has been cancelled.
He is currently working on the CBS show, " Amazing Race", another reality show, and stays busy with his own company, Madrik Multi Media, located in Los Angeles
Center Studio. The company works with writers and producers to help develop new shows and get them off the ground.
Mellon lives in Studio City, near the Hollywood Hills, and has his Emmy displayed on his mantel. "It's heavier than I thought it would be," he said.
While he doesn't live in a neighborhood with lots of celebrities, he says he does see stars on a regular basis. "Mostly at the grocery store," he said. "Most of my 'star sightings' are at the grocery store."
Mellon has been in California for the past few years, establishing his career.
"It took time to understand the industry," he said. " I bounced around a lot in the beginning. I think my mom was worried because every six weeks, I was looking for a job."
Mellon said his goal had always been to edit and produce.
"In a lot of ways an editor is a producer, especially in reality shows," he said. "You shoot hundreds of hours of film to get what you need. Scripted shows use a different process. "
Mellon is a 1992 graduate of Pittsfield High School and is the son of Patty Mellon Bartlett and the late Don Mellon.

"RE: Really, why the demise of SO"
Posted by Toushay on 06-04-06 at 02:44 PM
LAST EDITED ON 06-04-06 AT 02:48 PM (EST)

Aha! Another with time on her hands! Love research!

Actually he is only one of 15 editors who shared this year's Emmy for single camera editing. (Edited to remove link and replace with the list). He is way down the list, so probably a small fish in the big pond.

Outstanding Acheivement in Single Camera Editing
"Starting Over" (SYN)
Leellen Patchen, editor
Steven Urrutia, editor
Karen Snyder, editor
Barry Zetlin, editor
Peggy Tachdjian, editor
Paoul Rosenberg, editor
Maria Vitakis, editor
Aaron M. Lewis, editor
Joe Shugart, editor
Melissa Puente, editor
Mac Caudill, editor
Marc Grossman, editor
Arek Hope, editor
Steve Mellon, editor
James Gavin Bedford, editor

Earlier last year when they fired their webstaff, and later when their website was down because they forgot to renew it...ample warning that the show was on the rocks, IMO.

"RE: Really, why the demise of SO"
Posted by creepyoldwoman on 06-05-06 at 09:20 AM
Yes, I remember their old board and then them getting rid of the webstaff. Someone named "Jason" I think, the webmaster was pretty peeved about it all. I didn't really post or read the old boards. Just TVgal for spoilers.
This article I posted all seems sort of cold though. Like everyone is signing petitions and calling numbers and we are all trying to save the show, then this blurb extolling the virtues of this one little editor aburptly states "the shows been cancelled". Kind of like finding out your spouse is having an affair and everyone and their brother knew all along.

So, he edited every 6th show? Is that the way things are done in tv land? I thought one editing team would do the whole series. Perhaps this is why things got erratic?

"RE: Really, why the demise of SO"
Posted by 26mitogo on 06-05-06 at 11:53 AM
creepyoldwoman ~ I did note one thing from the article you posted that might give more evidence why the show was cancelled -- not that we didn't already assume that, just hearing it from the horses mouth (is that the expression?) makes it more obvious:

>>"In a lot of ways an editor is a producer, especially in reality shows," he said. "You shoot hundreds of hours of film to get what you need." <<

As most realize, all these "reality" shows air whatever drama they want to manufacture & emphasize. Early on apparently SO went for real help, improvement in the HGs lives, maybe even some actual healing. As the show progressed someone got the bright idea that bad women acting badly would be what everyone would tune in for so that's what they spent their "hundreds of hours" trying to get. They must have thought television needs yet ANOTHER hour of psycho DAWs running amok!

I'm still thinking about an earlier post suggesting Snowflake & SeasonedRefinement work together on a project. We're waaaiiitiiiing ........

Actually, there are a number on these boards that could pool abilities and come up with something awesome. All the talent is not in Hollywood!

"RE: Really, why the demise of SO"
Posted by BimBo on 06-05-06 at 12:24 PM
26 wrote>>>>>>I'm still thinking about an earlier post suggesting Snowflake & SeasonedRefinement work together on a project. We're waaaiiitiiiing ........

Actually, there are a number on these boards that could pool abilities and come up with something awesome. All the talent is not in Hollywood!

I SECOND THAT!!!

"RE: Really, why the demise of SO"
Posted by BlingBlong on 06-05-06 at 12:41 PM
As long as the project has nothing to do with SO!

The show failed. Few would want to see a play about the show the way it was, and even fewer would want to see a joke show about it! Too small an audience for commercial success. IMO

But yes there is unused talent everywhere. No LC to tell them to go for it, maybe?

"RE: Really, why the demise of SO"
Posted by techstyle on 06-06-06 at 12:27 PM
>As long as the project has
>nothing to do with SO!
>
>
>The show failed. Few would
>want to see a play
>about the show the way
>it was, and even fewer
>would want to see a
>joke show about it!
>Too small an audience for
>commercial success. IMO
>
>But yes there is unused talent
>everywhere. No LC to
>tell them to go for
>it, maybe?


A drama or such about reality T.V., Womens issues, The need/cost of attention or "fame", EBAY, MYSPACE, "charities", Life coaches, Web communication. I can see the appeal... O.K., not a story about these women, they are real people and I think their stories should be left alone. Not using anyones real story, or any names or names of shows, but these topics are signs of our times. I agree, NOT a joke show. I'd go see it.

"RE: Really, why the demise of SO"
Posted by Toushay on 06-06-06 at 01:57 PM
Did you ever see The Vagina Monologues? (part of a nation-wide campaign to stop violence against women) It was very successful.

"RE: Really, why the demise of SO"
Posted by Shazbot on 06-06-06 at 02:25 PM
"As the show progressed someone got the bright idea that bad women acting badly would be what everyone would tune in for so that's what they spent their "hundreds of hours" trying to get."
________________________________________________________________

26mitogo - I couldn't agree more, the proof is in the pudding.
And I agree with others comments too about how they just didn't care about their audience... so why did they think that was a successful approach. And also, what will the outlet of these productions be after they successfully kill television?

I strongly believe there was an audience out there for self-help for real women, with real concerns. They could've upped the anti a bit in the other direction - like having someone who's a competent person and truly wants to run a successful business, or someone who is doing all the right things by their family but wants it to be better... not so much attempted rescuing of people who's motivations of being helped are highly suspicious. They should've gone for it instead of having a show every editor and his cousin is using to get experience.

The comments in these posts are proof that an intelligent audience exists. A big concern of networks is to find an audience. I think SO had a vested audience right in the palm of their hands and they blew it. Dummies.


"RE: Really, why the demise of SO"
Posted by cronemoon on 06-08-06 at 06:46 AM

If it aint broke dont FIX IT...


SO season 2,3,,,


went for the drama queens..tried to fix a good thing
and it turned into a plate of FOBAR..
IF SO

had taken the exercies in season 1 and half of season 2
and turned it into a SO self help workbook
I would have bought one..I myself loved the journals
and "what is the lesson " to be learned..

its not the destination its the journey getting there..

sadly SO for got that..

its dead its over put a fork in it..

tsk tsk..they had a good thing and they ruined it..

I am amazed at the web sites and ebay feeding frenzy..
how sad..

"RE: Really, why the demise of SO"
Posted by 26mitogo on 06-08-06 at 01:38 PM
By the way, just to keep things clear ... in my earlier post (& other statements similar) about a combined project of SR & SF or any other posters ... I was just being silly. Kind of hard to see in print the silly smile on my face & hear the one little "Ha" I uttered when I typed it.

I loved reading the many thoughtful and well-written posts - of varying opinions - on this board, my favorites being from SeasonedRefinement. And I especially enjoyed the fun threads with pictures, for which Snowflake was well known, and those with puns, funny thoughts and plenty of other comedy.

IMO, SO blew it. They began something good ... something on the "tube" that had real value. They had a niche that could have been developed into something long-term ... that could have rippled out among so many more than those on the show & those who watched.

SO needed a bigger audience to generate more ad sales & make that coveted $$$. Rather than develop what they started & expand on an awesome idea, they chose to duplicate an idea that was already over saturating every channel at all hours of the day & night -- that being the manufactured drama with conflict-loving reality "contestants".

The discontent among the SO fans seems to be strongest from those who found the show during it's first season. They became disappointed & then angry as the show quickly went from helping women to setting up explosive situations in order to bring out then exploit the worst in human nature. But these long-term, loyal fans that found SO in its early airing seemed, for the most part, to have happened upon it accidentally not as a result of well-placed advertising. Once the show proved it had it's own unique audience they could have heavily marketed THAT audience. They wouldn't have needed that much of an advertising budget to reach the target audience who love, and most of all, appreciate the quality and life lessons that could be learned.

But just like too many of the HG on SO, the program in general looked for the easy way to get what they wanted. Sadly, the success of reality conflict programming has proven there is an audience for it, partially because it takes comparatively little to fund one of these shows. But not everyone on this planet who owns a television enjoys watching odd behavior from people who are nowhere near "real" as they strive to do something, ANYTHING, regardless of how stupid or humiliating, just to have the camera pointed toward them. Not everyone likes to come away from watching something on television feeling irritated and frustrated. In the beginning, by the end of each SO show I remember feeling encouraged, enlightened, stronger, happier and I may have even gotten some insights &/or answers. This past season, by the end of each show I felt irritated, like I wanted to slap someone!

Rather than simply adopt the same type reality formula already being used on hundreds of other reality shows, SO could have gone after "the rest of TV watchers". Add together all the people who are home during the day that want something with substance, something positive and you COULD have the numbers SO desperately wanted. There are A LOT of women home during the day looking for something worthwhile ... the stay-at-home mother, the ill or disabled, and the hugely growing population of baby boomers who are rapidly retiring. There are only so many teens & tweens sitting around during the day watching hours & hours of mindless programming, searching for ANOTHER show selling conflict among odd members of society. And, yes, there are stay-at-home mothers, disabled, & baby boomers who watch "reality shows". But, as a general rule, many women stay home with their children because they want to assure the children will be surrounded by the environment they create. Those forced to stay home as a result of a devastating illness or injury often don't want to invite real people into their homes and watch them hurt each other. They have enough of their own sadness, pain, & heartache to pull them apart all day long typically caused by something uncontrollable that stole their life. That's irritating enough! And the baby boomers that are retiring in droves ... they grew up on Leave It To Beaver, I Love Lucy, Bonanza & The Andy Griffith Show. Not as many are searching out reality drama. They've worked hard to make a good living & raise their children. They are now facing disappearing pensions, possible deflated investments, & a troubled health care system that they now (or soon will) rely on. AND for many of them, their children are returning home ... possibly unable to get a job, maybe divorced with children, or as a result of substance abuse problems. Their kids are a product of much of the attitudes driving these reality show. Do you think they are looking for more of it blaring throughout their homes all day?? Doubt it. What about the woman home some hours of the day that enjoys her life, things are humming along pretty nicely? Many would think they would be bored to death searching for drama. I don’t find that normally the case. Most people I know whose lives are generally pretty smooth have usually worked very hard to get to that point. If they loved drama, they wouldn’t have worked so hard at eliminating it. They usually find it irritating and irksome. They aren’t usually bored, living out their days searching for conflict. There are only so many bored, drama-loving SpitUpLisa’s on the planet.

So SO, you have only yourselves, your laziness, & your belief that the world is full of SpitUpLisas to blame. We thought maybe someone had finally come along ready to do good in the world and work to make it the success it could have been, developing a vast audience of good people who will always be working to improve themselves … people who will always have problems just because they are human. Instead, you proved you were as lazy & star hungry as Christie, Jill, Allison, & Christina. And, just like them, you caused your own demise.

"RE: Really, why the demise of SO"
Posted by smokeysmom on 06-08-06 at 03:33 PM
26 -- great post, I always enjoy your input as well as that of SR, Snow, Sharnina and the many other wise women on this board. Although you say you were kidding about a project (and I believe it would be a GREAT one!) -- I'd love to find a way to continue to "e-talk" with the women here, even if we can't exactly go "into production".

I agree that SO found an audience without any particular advertising, which surprised me as well. I'm a work at home baby boomer and it comes on at noon in NY so I landed on it during lunch. The first season hooked me, and as the other seasons started to deteriorate I actually used to use my lunch hour on this board with SO in the BACKGROUND! LOL!

I'm in the advertising field and have become increasingly frustrated with my industry's contention that "you are getting the images/media you ask / pay for." The implication being that we are all looking for Brangelina photos and Paris Hilton sex tapes because if we didn't buy it, they wouldn't produce it. I beg to differ. To my mind, if that's literally ALL that's offered -- yes, some will buy it and the rest of us will feel alienated and filled with disgust.

I was part of the Creative Team that developed the "Dove Campaign for Real Beauty". Remember those gorgeous real-sized, real-life women? I can't begin to tell you the resistance, the fights, the drama, the people that were fired, the focus groups and the nightmare it was to get that campaign running. Screaming meetings were 20-something year old MALE account managers practically gave themselves aneurisms shouting: ASPIRATIONAL! ASPIRATIONAL! women don't want to see themselves as they really are! ad nauseum.

Eventually a creative, baby boomer woman Brand Manager worked hard to make it happen. She put herself on the line and I think the results were spectacular. (AND the Sales figures were as well). However, the campaign took alot of flack in the media, with one woman (ouch!) on the Today Show actually implying that it encouraged young women to be fat.

AAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHH! None of those women were obese to a degree that would cause a health problem, we were careful about that. (Not that there is anything wrong with obesity either, it's not easy to stay fit in our super rushed, super stressed world and our human genetics are changing to be larger sized. Ever see shoes and clothes from the 1800s?)

Anyhoooooo -- Thank Godess the sales supported the work, and I hope that we can continue to move ourselves, and our sisters in that direction. We've really got to stop buying the crap, watching the crap and confirming the idea that "we're just selling you the garbage you want."

Rant a little why don't I?! These are the kinds of topics I would love to see this board's community continue and I think they exemplify why SO Season 1 and SO in general DID speak to a strong demographic.

Again, thanks to SR, Snow, Labyrinth, 26 and the countless other women here who made my lunch hour.

"RE: Really, why the demise of SO"
Posted by jonimoni on 06-08-06 at 07:58 PM
Well said. It seems we live in an increasingly lowest common denominator world and it can be very frustrating. I wonder how many young women, if given a choice between $50,000 in plastic surgery and a $50,000 scholarship, would choose the schooling? Is it the way the world really is, or is it the way it is brought to us by the media? SO brought the show to us as a learning vehicle the first season and then changed it into a show that focused more on conflict among women than support between them. The powers that be really do think we are all a bunch of mindless drones that need to be talked down to. I once read about a study and separated children into two classrooms the higher achievers and the lower ones. They then gave the higher achievers more challenging work to do and the children in the other class were given things that were right at their supposed level of learning. In the end they thought the results proved what they wanted, that the smarter people did better when pushed and the less bright did better when given things for their ability, but what they did not realize was that they had the classrooms reversed. They had given the more difficult things to the kids with the lower scores on their achievement tests, and they did great! This proves to me that if one raises the bar for human beings we will rise to meet it and if they lower it we will sink and stay there. I sometimes believe that the powers that decide what we see on TV in LA believe we all live in dirty little houses and sit in our underpants and watch TV to the exclusion of the rest of our lives. They see themselves as the best and brightest who need to keep us idiots happy in our Jerry Springer, Maury Povich, dna testing, reactionary world. Give me some History Channel or BBC news, thank goodness for cable or there would be nothing to put on for noise before I go to bed. I enjoyed this show so much the first season and have watched it bottom out by the end of this one and I feel sad for it could have continued being....
"RE: Really, why the demise of SO"
Posted by BlingBlong on 06-08-06 at 11:37 AM
LAST EDITED ON 06-09-06 AT 07:53 AM (EST)

Edited to remove false alarm folks!

Everything about this show is a lie! Life has NEVER been this real, hah, that's all I can hear in my mind now, never been this real....never real....never never never! I can't stand to watch it anymore!

"Cats Love Hunting in the Dark"
Posted by Toushay on 06-13-06 at 04:30 PM
Bunim-Murray miscalculated with Starting Over.

No SEX, that’s the answer! It’s plain as day on a two hour show on E True Hollywood Story about Bunim-Murray and The Real World.

The successful show TRW began on 2-16-92 as a documentary featuring shock elements. This show featured many cast members, telling it all in retrospect. “B-M wanted romance, B-M can’t let people be who they are” They wanted people to rerun conversations so they could get it on tape. “Desperate for bits of juicy drama” (sex with cameraman Bill and Becky led to Bill being fired).

Racial argument was featured with Julie and Kevin in 1992 the day LA riots went on after Rodney King verdict. The cast became overnight celebrities. Production exaggerated the characteristics of the casts. For 1993 LA they chose extreme personalities. The 3rd day together David choked John the cowboy. He was the one who brought about the phone call to Tammy almost naked in the sheets that ended after they were kicking, yelling, screaming. The cast didn’t feel safe and David was fired. Tammy had an abortion so B-M pressed for drama, wanting cowboy John to say he hated Tammy. Irene left, Tammy hated gays worse so they brought in gay Beth as her roommate. “They wanted things you talk about with your friends the next day”. On the 3rd season, San Francisco, the rest of the world discovered TRW. Puck selected to be a pot stirrer, Pedro with HIV, Puck was fired. Shock value in this 1994 AIDS story, where Pedro died 11-11-94 hours after his final episode aired. In London, Neil had tongue bitten off by a drunk. In 1996 for Miami, 40,000 people applied for 7 slots. “They picked us for a whack reason” Filmed a three way in the shower…edited for high drama. The sound man got run over by Melissa the waitress hastily leaving the three way shower scene. The cast had fast fights to get over it before the camera crew could get it. And so on. On to other “reality shows” including Starting Over.

Starting Over lacked sex. B-M thought they could apply TRW tactics to SO, but SO didn’t fit the mold. No men, no sex. Except for a couple romps by Sommer and Christina.

"RE: Cats Love Hunting in the Dark"
Posted by creepyoldwoman on 06-14-06 at 07:44 AM
After having reading Niambi's blogs and Kelly's interview on another site, I think it was the editing that killed SO. Kelly freaked me out during her stay. She actually scared me. However, in the interview, she sounded human. Actually nice. She spoke of things that were never aired. Many events were made to glue a storyline into it. I have heard of a number of shows, where the producers demanded to have a storyline and it killed the show, MST3000, comes to mind. I think the real SO , the one I wanted to see and caught more glimpses of during season 1, is laying on the cutting room floor.

They just really didn't know their audience. I agree with the other posts about sex. Whenever things got sexy, i felt like a peeping tom.

"RE: Cats Love Hunting in the Dark"
Posted by SeasonedRefinement on 06-14-06 at 11:43 AM
LAST EDITED ON 06-14-06 AT 05:21 PM (EST)

creepy wrote, "...MST3000, comes to mind."

LOL, now that's something I'd watch in reruns: Season 3 in a MST3K format. Three little heads at the bottom of the screen translating the script from SO-speak to English (with a twist)! I've got a few nominations to fill those theather seats too. Actually, we would have to rotate commentators - there are so many satirists on board!

creepy also wrote, "...Whenever things got sexy, i felt like a peeping tom."

I hear you! I actually lowered the television volume, and found myself looking around to make sure that noone in my house had wandered downstairs the day the ladies had their "sex talk" in group. After they implied that Antonia must --- well, you remember -- I thought, "well what a surprise -- the 22 year old isn't comfortable volleying the details of her intimate life around the SO circle, and it's the peri-menopausal women (and one 31 year old) who are talking over each other because they don't want to miss the opportunity to "share". Jodi, Christy, Jill - I didn't want to get near their memories or their interpretations of the carnal delights, LOL. I'm not saying that women over thirty should head for the convent, but I still believe that some degree of discretion and tact goes a long way - especially when family members, neighbors, and co-workers can tune in.

So, I'm not of the opinion that the general lack of sexual subject matter had much to do with the demise of SO. Besides, there were more than a few soap operas playing on other channels in that afternoon timeslot, and they have plenty of scripted love to offer. I know, I know - soap operas aren't spontaneous and the actors aren't "real people"...but in this case, that's the point.


Edit - removal of a wayward apostrophe...

"RE: Cats Love Hunting in the Dark"
Posted by creepyoldwoman on 06-14-06 at 04:01 PM


Servo: Where are you going Mike? The movie is starting.

Mike: Tell Pearl I give up. There are just some movies I can't take. I've already got me a case of indigestion looking at the opening. What's wrong with this producer? What a chop shop, colorized heads on a black and white background. what is he on acid?

Servo: Well, I kind of like ATTACK OF THE FLOATING EGO HEADS". They are all nice and floaty and about to pop. shh shh wait till they try and make some money without J-O-B-S !

Mike: Yea, you would like floating ego heads. I am going home. ahhhhhhhhhhhh

Servo: Watch that first step..... er Mike.....

"RE: Cats Love Hunting in the Dark"
Posted by SeasonedRefinement on 06-14-06 at 05:17 PM
LOL...thanks for the flashback, creepy! I miss that show They showed garbage and they knew it! There was no pretense that it was what it wasn't, lol.

Now that you mention Pearl, I think Allison would do a great job playing the troublesome Ms. Forrester -- the body, the make-up, the controlling personality - yeah, Allison as Pearl.


"RE: Really, why the demise of SO"
Posted by justsaynototoughlove on 06-26-06 at 02:55 AM
What drew me into this show, was happening upon Nyanza trying to push herself up a stairs, and I thot, shoot, the house is not handicapped equipped. That's why I checked it out. And yuck, how difficult to live with other women on camera in a house, when you aren't use to it. Kinda like some group home. Hmm, what are they up to? It was a nice summer eve on cam, and I decided to watch as fall was drawing near, and it reminded me of summer. I wanted to see how these women interacted, and at least it was honest. That too I liked, tho I thot they were on the show for what it's connections could do for their careers. Cept the shoe stomper. I couldn't figure out why she was there, cuz it seemed to be for genuine help!

It was a curiosity. But I couldn't stand the ulginess of the cast, Christines games and Nyanza's attitude, and didn't watch till a couple of months later. They bored me. Then I saw Rhonda being such a great chearleader for this horrid country singer and I again became quite curious. Then I watche more and became livid with the force a dream, as completed, theme.

Then wow, somebody got MY attention, but for the wrong reasons.

I watched part in curiousity and part in outrage, as Rhonda's curious and dangerous personality and agenda revealed itself. Rhonda was so compassionate, and a truly madly, obsessive, woman with abusive therapy mixed into her gentle loving care she gave her charges. I tried to report her to the APA. She was playing a pyschologist who could make peoples dreams come true in 5 or 6 weeks, which was pure madness.This got me enraged and on my own passionate crusade. This Rhonda was so much compassion, truly, and such deplorable marketing and abuse and using of others, I went to the website to find out more. I found more and more how incompetent she was, and how she only had her dead parents to sell and an "almost" finished degree in marketing. I found she never sought help for herself wehn she drand and did drugs and got attention swallowing bottles of pills. Her sister committed her, and more than once I am sure. This woman was fearless day one and not in enough pain to seek help. Once she finally quit pills and booze, she needed a new addiction and found one. Selling herself!!!

She made me most livid with the country singer and the abuse to the house on one infamous show in Jan, I believe, yr one.

I was so relieved to find other posters protesting her. I was not alone in seeing how dangerous this was.\

I loved the spoilers. The woman, some intrigued me and their interactions seemed unstaged yr one, which I very much liked, so I was hooked. I saw a theme, yr one, BLAME MEN for everything, and this too I protested.
Part of the viewing was to keep up with both intelligent thread interaction, vehement protesting of the shows agenda, and hilarious fun creative posters. The meta thread brought out my thoughtful philosopher, and we protesters would go nust tying to post without harming others,as we took vile after vile attacks, and get our points across with dignity, tho much frustration.

It was intellectually stimulating to do this, a challenge, and eventually a bunch of us need to vent, and had more fun than we'd ever had on the net by using code in post and going to the basement of SOB.
Oh god, remember when Harkin was lying on the floor listenting at the door. Creative poster would have threads, like things missing from the house when C2 left. Song that she and Rhonda remined you of etc.

The show, itself, was total hypocrisy and the challenge of addressing this to innocent viewers was something I enjoyed.
I enjoyed the wonderful yr one posters!! Except for the vicious ones and the black and white viewers. But at a more thotful site, that came about when Rhonda demanded SOB be under her thumb also, one where I could have an effect on these veiwers in a nice chatting way, and that was cool too.I also learned from some posters and enjoyed the smart ashes.
So I obviously liked the interactive abitlies I had on the internet in viewing this show that was such a contradicion, but had potential in less narcissistic hands.

I also wrote B/M over and over, demanding they get a psychologist.

I researched Rhonda to death, trying to get an accurate take on her and became more and more shocked at how incompetent and ruthless she was about marketing. Yet she did have a heart. What a curiosity she was. An unrelenting one tho it seemed.

The shows ratings were miserable, and they used the hits at the board (from people checking spoilers I feel) to renew it. This alone was outrageous. They needed help to stay afloat, cheated yr one, and went to the wrong door, looking for a new format.

They went pure soap opera and histrionic drama. 2 out of control woman,despite Katz, were running a very staged show. Nothing undfolded naturally. I was hooked and it depressed me to have to watch this staged theater, as I don't watch soaps. IV was too often a false affect, over the top preacher for my sensibilties. Tho I liked her street gril when it was NOT abusing others. This yr, you had to be a rape victim, following Ronda's men are bad projections. (eyes in skull. I love men.) But I was addicted to posting, I did like Katz, and their was usually one hg that would hook me,in thier pathology, tho I no longer saw interaction amongst the woman unfold naturally, it was all forcded. I hated that.

I also notice that the posts at SOB,in time, had an effect on the show. That's why a Katz was in yr 2. And why some more heathty themes were sloppily mixed in with inane, abusie metaphoric games.
By yr three it stopped pretending it could change lives, and said it could only offer support. Whew, we one on that front. But if that's support, I'd hate to see what they call abuse.

And I liked the site at Bette's so I suffered thru it.Tho posters are so civil there. Comic relief from a poster named Hula Flake and her fantastic photo shows kept me going yr 2. We had a pyschologist who was quite educated, and that made analyzing even more interesting.

Yr 3, was again painful as heck to have to view, but I was addicted to the hg. Hulaflake disappeared, and I could only hope the show would self detruct. I did not watch the couples.

I consider it a huge relief not to watch.
But come cold miserable winter days, I will miss not having to watch a taping of this show before bed. Someetimes, in spite of itself, it would intrigue me with something I could care and post about in protest, or shock that it did something healthy.
I also loved analyzing the personalities of the woman. I did miss anything natural, unstaged happening tho.

I mostly miss the board humor of spring yr one. We had fun. We really had fun! Thank you to anyone here who was a a part of that.

"RE: Really, why the demise of SO"
Posted by sharnina on 06-26-06 at 03:36 AM
Someone in Off Topic asked what the appeal of SO was and this is what I answered -

Here's the appeal - SO started as a show about genuine women with genuine problems. It appealed to many women on many levels. With Season 2 we began to see a little more interesting drama that wasn't your normal everyday run-of-the-mill drama.

So when Season 3 started fans rejoined the show hoping that it would go back to its roots of Season 1. And let's just say we couldn't stop staring at the trainwreck that it had become. And I think we all kept hoping that we would see something genuine happen again -

-that Jill would realize she needs to lose weight, take responsibility for her own actions, work hard for what she wants.
-that Jessica would stop whining about having to grieve her mother's 911 death in public (because, well, that's exactly what she was doing on SO).
-that Allison would realize that she has a drinking problem and stop whining about the loss of her breast and uterus (which she "lost" through elective surgery).
-that Christina would really drop the hustle and grow up (and actually be seen taking, completing and passing her GED).
-that, once and for all, Lisa would actually throw up something rather than fake gag for 10 minutes and then look around to see if anyone noticed (that's the stupid lady selling necklaces).
-that somebody on the SO staff would realize that there was no way they were equipped to deal with Kim's very real problems.
-that somebody tell Christie the truth and make her go to the gym in order to be able to stay in the SO house.
-that Jodi would just admit that she may be sexually confused and face up to it.

Many of us were frustrated by events on the show but like good Looky Lucy's we kept coming back for more.

The show is finally over and some of us are still watching what a few former houseguests are doing post-SO and are gravely disappointed by their behavior. They have proven themselves to be true DAW's.

Some of us happened upon the forum by accident and we stayed. We laughed, we criticized, we praised, we alerted (sorry Mystic, Bebo, and Cyg). Some of us joined the Roleplay and are still having fun. Many of us met wonderful, smart, funny women that we will continue to communicate with now that the show is over.

Everyday there are fewer and fewer posts and it's sad to gradually lose contact with such wonderful women that I have met here. But it doesn't necessarily have to be that way. If you found someone here that you admire, PM them and get to know them - you may be surprised by what you find.

Now that's truly "starting over."



God is good all the time and all the time, God is good.

"RE: Really, why the demise of SO"
Posted by creepyoldwoman on 06-26-06 at 09:26 AM
Great post, Sharnia. It truly was a groundbreaking show.
How can I enable myself to get PMs?
"RE: Really, why the demise of SO"
Posted by sharnina on 06-26-06 at 11:48 AM
You are already enabled.

Check at the top of the forums list for a little red wavy flag.


God is good all the time and all the time, God is good.

"RE: Really, why the demise of SO"
Posted by mysticwolf on 06-26-06 at 12:02 PM
Every member is automatically enabled to get PM's (unless they have chosen to disable the option in their profile).

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Puppy Lvoe from Tribe blogging's scary

"RE: Really, why the demise of SO"
Posted by Shazbot on 06-27-06 at 00:41 AM
I agree with Creepyoldwoman - Sharnina that was a great rundown of the show. Sadly so, SO.

Justsaynototoughlove - you felt relieved not watching the show, that about sums it up for me... I think that was the result of all the manipulation going on there. Interesting, strong take on Rhonda. I'd agree too that when it got right down to it she wasn't about being responsible about what she was putting out there. It was all marketing. It'll be interesting to see what she makes of herself. But who's going to be watching? (not me).

"RE: Really, why the demise of SO"
Posted by Cleverone on 07-03-06 at 06:10 PM
After reading all of the comments about the demise of the show, I have to agree with just about all of it...sadly.

SR....that was a great read (well worth the time).

For SO to receive an award for editing for the second season....the lousy editing for the third season had a lot to do with it's demise...left a lot to be desired.

It's a shame that the only measure of a show's worthiness is a numbers game (ratings)...if they'd tried different time slots they may have garnered the numbers they needed.

There was so much mishandling of the third season by the editing staff, the LC's and the HG's for the sake of that dreaded word "DRAMA" that we lost a show that could have been the difference between success and failure for a lot of ordinary women out there who so desperately need help....for using poor judgement and forgetting the original premise of why the show began in the first place...SO should receive a R-A-Z-Z-Y !!!

Maybe they'll learn from these mistakes and put together a new show with the promise of legitimate issues and guests....new LC's couldn't hurt, either...the old ones were probably burned out on the "conflama drama".

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"I walk in my own shoes..."
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