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Original Message
"I'm Not Getting It!!"
Posted by Ziggy on 03-09-06 at 08:55 PM
I just don't understand why Iyanla is making Lisa take blame for the husband's infidelity. Why isn't he being blamed for his own actions?? Iyanla seems to be blaming Lisa for not loving him enough!! Why does Lisa have to forgive the mistress for loving her husband??? What the hell!??

If my husband cheated, hell would have to freeze over before I blamed myself and not him.

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Messages in this discussion
"RE: I'm Not Getting It!!"
Posted by SeasonedRefinement on 03-09-06 at 09:09 PM
Ziggy, I'm not getting it either.

I also don't understand why Iyanla feels the need to get so damn aggressive and nasty or "goin' Brooklyn" as she calls it. Lisa barely got her butt in the chair before Iyanla started yelling, "NO, NO, NO, NO!!!". Menopause? Jill's leaving? Hates her job? Who knows...but it sure isn't Lisa's problem. She intimidates Lisa. Not a great way to build trust...especially with someone who can't speak her own mind. But in true SO fashion, Lisa will most likely refer to this exercise on her graduation day saying, "it was the turning point". Sure it was.

I may be wrong, but I think Lisa's tears were tears of humiliation as Iyanla poured dirt all over her feet. I couldn't watch it.

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"RE: I'm Not Getting It!!"
Posted by pmfmpls on 03-09-06 at 10:25 PM
as a previous partner once told me (when I stupidly asked if I'd be forgiven for cheating), "Sure, I'd forgive you...and I'd miss you, too"

"RE: I'm Not Getting It!!"
Posted by kelb on 03-16-06 at 02:47 PM
IMO, it happened so long ago, it doesn't make any sense for her to be brewing still. She should have said "later" back then. It is not his fault that she chose to stay. I believe she stayed because she was afraid to be on her own and maybe even because she wanted to punish him for all these years. '

But I guess, it would be better to leave him now than to make him pay any longer. I think he has paid enough.

"RE: I'm Not Getting It!!"
Posted by lovemydogdude on 03-09-06 at 11:58 PM
This has bothered me from day one. Iyanla didn't even let her tell her story in the first place without belittling her. I think Lisa's being treated very poorly. She should at least get to break or stab a few things to get her anger out. I don't think her feelings have EVER been acknowledged. I can appreciate the underlying point Iyanla is trying to make but I think her methods with Lisa are very rude and obnoxious.

"RE: I'm Not Getting It!!"
Posted by Cindi on 03-10-06 at 01:47 AM
Hi everyone!

I'm with you all. I was getting mad. Why was Iyanla telling her it was her fault? I don't care what Lisa did, her Husband made a choice to cheat.

"RE: I'm Not Getting It!!"
Posted by Zoey on 03-10-06 at 04:46 AM
Her husband made the choice to cheat but Lisa chose to stay with him and not forgive him. She chose to marry him, even though she was hesitant and she chose to stay with him after he cheated. In choosing to stay with him, she seemingly had no intention of working things out but holding them in and punishing him in other ways.

It takes a lot of strength, I imagine, to stay with someone after they've cheated - but I think you either need to leave the relationship or truly forgive. If you don't or can't you are only making both yourself and the cheater miserable.

If they would have parted ways a long time ago or if Lisa knew how to deal with it in a more healthy mannor, they could both be more happy.

I don't completely disagree with what the rest of you are saying but I don't think Lisa is blameless in her own unhappiness.

"RE: I'm Not Getting It!!"
Posted by eire_heart74 on 03-10-06 at 08:13 AM
>Her husband made the choice to
>cheat but Lisa chose to
>stay with him and not
>forgive him. She chose to
>marry him, even though she
>was hesitant and she chose
>to stay with him after
>he cheated. In choosing to
>stay with him, she seemingly
>had no intention of working
>things out but holding them
>in and punishing him in
>other ways.

Oh my god Zoey you took the words out of my mouth!

Exactly! Lisa isn't so innocent. She has known for a very long time that maybe he wasn't the one. But she was so tied up having a man and having an image that she just was blind to it.

Tony made the choice to cheat but Lisa put up with it. That's why her life coach is being so mean. She does need to own up to the fact that her life wasn't the perfect little family she pretended all along it was. She should be mad and ashamed at herself for her little farce and all the bs she has given her husband. He's not innocent but just staying with him just to make him miserable and suffer is just dumb. She just liked being a housewife who didn't have to work. So she was willing to put up with it.

They are both in a sick co dependent relationship. They would be better off apart. I am so sick of her stuttering rambling I don't know excuses for everything.

"RE: I'm Not Getting It!!"
Posted by Cleverone on 03-10-06 at 12:56 PM
>>>Oh my god Zoey you took the words out of my mouth!<<<


...and mine,too,Eire_Heart74 ....I agree totally. Lisa's in the SO house because "she" can't come to terms with her part in her "fantasy marriage"..."she's" allowed her life to be enslaved to a loveless relationship so that "she" may have the satisfaction of punishing her husband and creating an illusion of a perfect marriage.

What was her pay off for staying...not having to support herself, not forgiving Tony's lack of judgement and being able to make him suffer at "her hands"..."hyping an idealic relationship" that never was the way she allowed others to believe it was..."being jealous of and shutting out" those around her "who had what she wanted" and wouldn't allow her self to accept the man "she willingly married" to be human and "not above human frailties".

She's punished him all these years and it seems that since they are "empty nesters" the past has come back to haunt Lisa...the past that "she" created and I feel that maybe she's now afraid that he may leave her...I feel deeply that this is formost in her mind and as long as "she" continues to blame and punish him, he'll feel "obligated to stay with her".

....I have to agree with you, Zoey, in that the LC's have to treat the HG's according to "their individual problems" and the best way they can to get them to recognize their issues and aspire them to take the next step in changing bad behavior....and if it means "going Brooklyn" to do it then.. so be it. I personally don't think that Iyanla is mean to Lisa...just trying to get Lisa out of the "blame game" and into "her" reality...Lisa's very stubborn and relentless when she's defending "her position" and if she continues in this vein, she won't face her issues....she'll still "just want someone to punish and blame"...(IMO) Iyanla is doing what's neccessary to get Lisa to accept her part in her own tragedy. (JMHO)

****************************
"I walk in my own shoes..."
****************************

"RE: I'm Not Getting It!!"
Posted by Ijustsharted on 03-10-06 at 03:09 PM

She definately plays favorites with the housemates. I think Lisa should tell IV to stick it.


"RE: I'm Not Getting It!!"
Posted by JavaT on 03-10-06 at 04:50 AM
I'm with you guys -- good old Tony hasn't been held accountable for much, or so it seems. Then again, it's possible IV is trying to get Lisa to just stand firm and accountable for her own actions; you know, toughen up and be a real person and not just Tony's shadow, that kind of thing.

I've noticed something else about the IV/Lisa duo, too. It seems to me that IV is so hard on Lisa, whereas she was such a soft touch with Jill. It's like she's just plain nasty to Lisa sometimes. And with XXXtina, it was almost like she just tolerated the girl, like XXXtina was just part of the job. Hate to say it, but it's almost like she's playing favorites.

But back to the Tony thing. Maybe IV is trying to alienate Lisa so that she, IV, can have a crack at Tony herself And by that time Lisa will be so strong and such an individual she'll just stomp off and go live with Maureen or something HA!

"RE: I'm Not Getting It!!"
Posted by Zoey on 03-10-06 at 06:32 AM
Honestly, I think the life coaches treat the house mates the way they need to be treated. Popele with different issues need different treatment. Some require more "tough love", other require compassion, etc...

They can't be treated all the sam,e when they have very different issues.

"RE: I'm Not Getting It!!"
Posted by janjan03 on 03-10-06 at 08:42 AM
I agree, but I also think IV is very dramatic and that is sometimes too much. The main thing these ladies have to learn is they are allowing their own self disappointments to be overshadowed by someone else's shortcomings. They then stay focused on the other's problem but the real issue is within them. So the coaches are showing them to see beyond the garbage and come to terms with what is really eating at them - something they did or didn't do.
"RE: I'm Not Getting It!!"
Posted by mrsnut on 03-10-06 at 08:44 AM
I must agree with lovemydogdude, and many others, I have thought from day 1 with Lisa, that IV treated her terrible. I also agree that Lisa must accept blame for staying with that cheating a$$, but come on!!! IV yells at her, tells her to own it. And IMO, just to make IV happy, Lisa agrees, or goes along with whatever she says. I don't feel like Lisa WANTS to own up to a lot of what IV forces her to own. And forgive the mistress???? Oh hell nooooo!! Lisa has her issues, but I think she is treated poorly.


"RE: I'm Not Getting It!!"
Posted by patacake on 03-14-06 at 11:52 PM
Lisa2's a doormat-- you have a shake a doormat to "clean it up", as IV would say.
"RE: I'm Not Getting It!!"
Posted by Pixeltalk on 03-10-06 at 03:36 PM
Tony cannot be held accountable because he isn't in the SO house. If Lisa accepts her part in the disaster that was their marriage (he cheated; she punished him for 30 years), she will be empowered to change her life and marriage (or end the marriage). If she continues to put it all on Tony, she will continue to be a victim and unable to control her own destiny. You can't change other people, only yourself.

Also, I think it sucks that she dumps all of her pain and problems on her daughter. That is a heavy burden and could end up ruining their relationship. At least Lisa has the self-awareness to see the parallels with Jill and her mother.

"RE: I'm Not Getting It!!"
Posted by Mama_Pita on 03-10-06 at 09:12 AM
Im definetly not getting it either, Since Lisa got there and told her story, i felt for her. Ive lived in a loveless marriage, not because of infidelity, but still lived unfulfilled. I still to this day cant understand why Iyanla is treating Lisa like she was the wrong one here, Just because she stayed. Last i remember marriage vows are FOREVER. Thru thick and thru thin, richer or poorer, in sickness and in health TIL DEATH DO US PART!. that to me means forever. and if the love fades you either live with it or fix it. Sometimes we cant get our brain and our hearts to work together. But i dont think the blame should lay solely on Lisa. Why hasnt her husband been called? why hasnt her husband been asked to come to the SO house like all theother house guests partners.? Until I hear his side of the story, we cannot jundge.
"RE: I'm Not Getting It!!"
Posted by tac_2 on 03-10-06 at 11:55 AM
My feeling about Iyanla sticking it to Lisa is directly connected with HER OWN cheating past when she was dating a married man for FIVE years.

"RE: I'm Not Getting It!!"
Posted by chickadee on 03-10-06 at 02:37 PM

Lisa needs to realize, or own up to her part in the relationship not only with Tony but with her own children. The other day she said something about always dumping her troubles onto her daughter. I feel bad for her family. I hope she gets it, and can enjoy her family and friends

"RE: I'm Not Getting It!!"
Posted by lovemydogdude on 03-10-06 at 05:26 PM
tac2 interesting point!
chickadee I agree wholeheartedly! She definately DOES need to own up to her part..I just feel they approached her with boxing gloves on I mean geesh she was barely allowed to share her story before they told her she couldn't even speak Tony's name. What happened to letting someone get it all out..then teach them to take responsibility for it?

As far as her daughter goes..that's sad..she dumped on her because she was hiding the truth from everyone else and chose her as an outlet. The fact that they're so close is good but Lisa needs to create a healthy relationship by dealing with her own garbage and finding happiness in her life..no more hiding and dumping on DD.

"RE: I'm Not Getting It!!"
Posted by Twinkles on 03-10-06 at 07:11 PM
The other ownership Lisa hasn't made is that Tony had reservations about getting married in the first place and Lisa didn't explore or honor that. She let her mother go and pressure him into going ahead with the reservations for the church or hall or something. That little revelation was right before the dirt stomp.

I admit I was having the same "I don't get it but he cheated" problem, too but now I'm wondering how much manipulation she did all along and the one giant pimple of "but he did the worst bad thing" is the only story she ever tells without revealing what she may have said or done before or after his affair.

Perhaps Iyanla's plan is to get Lisa to let go of that ONE story and start looking at the bigger picture. (even if she has to be melodramatic or yell). Yes that was one awful thing, but it wasn't the only thing. It was part of a series of connected events and so, now what's going on and who are you and what are you going to do? That's what matters today. Lisa's brain is like an old vinyl record and the needle is stuck in a 32 year old groove.

"RE: I'm Not Getting It!!"
Posted by pickleme on 03-13-06 at 07:11 PM
Judging from today's episode (March 13th), Lisa had never considered that Tony's last-minute "I don't really want to get married" remark should have been taken more seriously. She hasn't thought during all these years that he was not ready for commitment. Thus, when Lisa and her parents essentially forced them to go though with it, in many ways, the handwriting was on the wall for the young couple. He was immature; he strayed. In reaction, Lisa has been blaming him all these years for behavior that was not entirely his "fault." I hope that Lisa thinks this through and that she takes an objective viewpoint about her level of responsibility for the problems in their relationship.
"RE: I'm Not Getting It!!"
Posted by snowflake2 on 03-14-06 at 06:49 PM
I think Iyanla's "life coaching" is once again being hindered by Iyanla's own unresolved issues.

Sure, Lisa must take responsibility for staying in an unhappy marriage as long as she has, and for "punishing" Tony for all these years. And sure, you can't change anyone but yourself.

But Iyanla seems to be trying to convince Lisa that Tony is TOTALLY BLAMELESS, and that Lisa is the ONLY ONE who has contributed to the marriage being a failure. Iyanla told Lisa that instead of being hurt & p*ssed that Tony was unfaithful and that another woman was having her husband's child, the more appropriate response would have been to tell Tony she's sorry she forced him to marry her, and to tell the other woman that she forgives her for falling in love with her husband?? Maybe Lisa & the "other woman" should have giggled about their similar taste in men? Maybe they could have gone shopping for baby clothes together?

Iyanla seems to forget that Tony is ALSO RESPONSIBLE for going through with the marriage. And if he's been soooo unhappy all these years, what's prevented HIM from leaving? I doubt Little Lisa has hobbled him Kathy-Bates-in-"Misery" style, so obviously he's getting something out of remaining in the marriage.

Iyanla just can't admit infidelity is wrong, because it's a game she & her now-husband played themselves for 5 years. It's like she is coaching Lisa from the viewpoint of Tony and the "other woman".

And I'm confused about all this cr@p...write Tony a love letter, cherish this little egg that represents his heart...WTF??? Shouldn't Lisa be instead using her SO stay to decide IF she actually does love Tony, and IF she wants to stay with him? I think the fact that Lisa has not even called her husband since she's been at the SOH, and the fact that she had difficulty even attempting to compose the "love letter" might be telling. It's like Iyanla doesn't even hear anything Lisa has to say.


"RE: I'm Not Getting It!!"
Posted by allenjo on 03-15-06 at 01:31 AM
It was hard for me to watch Lisa when Rhonda was discussing about "I'm sorry" thing with the group yesterday (March 13). It's difficult for Lisa to say she's sorry and apologize that she "forced" Tony to get married when he didn't want to get married. It just broke my heart watching her and especially when she said she should forgive herself first for things that she has created her own situation...
"RE: I'm Not Getting It!!"
Posted by NicNac on 03-15-06 at 08:50 AM
Snowflake, once again you have hit the nail smack on the head and put into words exactly what I was thinking in my own head. What is really scary is that Lisa2 is so unsure of who she is that Iyanla will have no problem at all brainwashing her into thinking that everything really is her fault and bringing Lisas self esteem to an all time low. Lisa actually may have been further ahead before she came into the SO house.
"RE: I'm Not Getting It!! & Iyanla isn't either"
Posted by justfionablue on 03-15-06 at 11:06 AM
To address the idea of favoritism, I think Miss I gets most involved professionally and personally only when she can "Mother" the HG...and when the HG will allow it. Allison was a surrogate daughter as was Christina and even Jill to a certain degree. However Lisa2 is more of a peer and the Divine Miss I can't mother her very well. There is no connection there. Iyanla is epecially hard on Lisa, emotionally belittling her to a more child like level. Lisa does have some "childish" tendencies, like trouble making decisions or taking action, which should be brought out as something to work on. Instead Iyanla tries to convince her that everything is her fault. As long as she can talk down to the "lowly, wayward girls" and then enlighten them, she can reign supreme as the Goddess Iyanla.
"RE: I'm Not Getting It!! & Iyanla isn't either"
Posted by Zoey on 03-15-06 at 01:47 PM
Snowflake,

I also agree that she should be deciding on weather she wants to stay in the mairrage altogether, not just saving it for the sake of what other people think.

My only guess as to why Iyanla won't give any blame to Lisa's husband is because Lisa has done enough blaming. I think if you gave her an inch, she'd take a mile. Him cheating was his fault but her dealing with it all these years, in a negative way, was her fault.

This is just me but I can not imagine staying in a mairrage when she was so resentful. Nevermind how it looks, she wasted a looooong time. I think to a point everyone cares what other people think but that's just rediculous (understatement).

"RE: I'm Not Getting It!!"
Posted by C_Mar on 03-16-06 at 03:27 AM
I don't understand how you can work on a marriage with only one partner there. If Lisa wanted help with her marriage, she should have went to a counselor back home with Tony.
"RE: I'm Not Getting It!!"
Posted by SeasonedRefinement on 03-16-06 at 09:03 PM
There is nothing wrong with using different approaches for different people and different problems, but "tough love", which is what Iyanla is allegedly employing with Lisa, is usually not the first approach, is it? If I understand the concept correctly, it's based on the theory that the person you're dealing with hasn't responded to more conventional or even-handed approaches. In this case, what have those conventional approaches been?

Well, Lisa had barely gotten her story out of her mouth before Iyanla did her body-roll fainting spell. What was the startling revelation that caused Iyanla to make believe that the blood had suddenly rushed from her head? Hold on...it's a big one. Lisa is in a loveless marriage and is harboring a 28 year old grudge due to her husband's infidelity and out-of-wedlock child. Was this just Iyanla's way of saying, "boy are you a chump", or was the whole subject something she just found boring? Either way, Iyanla set the tone that day and has continued to act as though Lisa is an annoyance, unwilling, or stupid.

Iyanla is admitting that she is being aggressive and intimidating - that's why she calls it "goin' Brooklyn". She did it with Allison during their faux shoving match, but she gave Allison a lot more time (two seasons!) before she got there. And IMO, Allison was the slowest, most deliberate plodder of all the SO HG's. I haven't seen any steely rebellion in Lisa...at least not anything that would warrant putting her in a tub of swamp water or pouring dirt on her feet. She did well during the fairytale assignment - no humiliation there. So Lisa did what millions of women do - they accepted something less than they should have. At least she knows it and wants to address it.

Sometimes people don't connect - they just don't have chemistry. I can easily accept the fact that Iyanla may not like/respect Lisa. She is allowed to do that - she's only human. Maybe it has something to do with Iyanla's own cheating past, maybe not. That's why people are urged to find a therapist they connect with, even it if takes a while....because sometimes, it takes a while.

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"RE: I'm Not Getting It!!"
Posted by Alpharedhead on 03-16-06 at 08:29 PM
Okay, here's the thing. Iyanla is NOT blaming Lisa for Tony's infidelity. She's blaming Lisa for creating the situation by a) forcing him to marry her, b) tolerating the presence of the other woman in her life after the affair was supposedly over ("Bump me once, I'll let it slide; bump me twice, you owe me an apology; bump me three times, we're gonna have a conversation."), and c) for using it as an excuse to turn into a hard-hearted witch (which hurt her and the kids more than it did him).

Lisa can't change the infidelity. She can't change Tony. She can only change her reaction and her attitude toward both. If Lisa was going to throw him out over the cheating, she should have done it twenty years ago, told that other woman "you ever come near me or my kids again and I'm gonna yank your lungs up through your left nostril," and then gotten on with her life.

Or she should have completely forgiven him and gotten down to the business of figuring out what was the issue in their marriage that sent him looking outward. She should have forgiven him and moved on.

Instead of doing either, Lisa chose to live a punity, punishing lifestyle that made him pay every day (by her own admission to Stan and Tony) for his affair.

THAT is where her blame lies. And THAT is something she actually has the power to change.

~AR~

"RE: I'm Not Getting It!!"
Posted by imamrs on 03-16-06 at 09:39 PM
I am in total agreement with you. First of all, Tony admitted that he was having second thoughts about getting married. It must be have been humiliating for Lisa2 to know that part of the reason they married is because her MOTHER did not want to bear the burden of helping her daughter a)get through a difficult time b) cancel everything and thus forfeit deposits and c) and face telling friends and family.

I think it is very hard for Lisa2 to look inward. For years she has blamed Tony.I am still waiting for some real honest to goodness emotion to come out of this woman. It will be interesting to see if the marriage survives.

"RE: I'm Not Getting It!!"
Posted by Cleverone on 03-17-06 at 01:24 AM
>Okay, here's the thing. Iyanla
>is NOT blaming Lisa for
>Tony's infidelity. She's blaming
>Lisa for creating the situation
>by a) forcing him to
>marry her, b) tolerating the
>presence of the other woman
>in her life after the
>affair was supposedly over ("Bump
>me once, I'll let it
>slide; bump me twice, you
>owe me an apology; bump
>me three times, we're gonna
>have a conversation."), and c)
>for using it as an
>excuse to turn into a
>hard-hearted witch (which hurt her
>and the kids more than
>it did him).
>
>Lisa can't change the infidelity.
>She can't change Tony.
>She can only change her
>reaction and her attitude toward
>both. If Lisa was
>going to throw him out
>over the cheating, she should
>have done it twenty years
>ago, told that other woman
>"you ever come near me
>or my kids again and
>I'm gonna yank your lungs
>up through your left nostril,"
>and then gotten on with
>her life.
>
>Or she should have completely forgiven
>him and gotten down to
>the business of figuring out
>what was the issue in
>their marriage that sent him
>looking outward. She should have
>forgiven him and moved on.
>
>
>Instead of doing either, Lisa chose
>to live a punity, punishing
>lifestyle that made him pay
>every day (by her own
>admission to Stan and Tony)
>for his affair.
>
>THAT is where her blame lies.
> And THAT is something
>she actually has the power
>to change.
>
>~AR~

AlphaRedhead...Just wanted to applaud you...well said!!! That's "it" in a nut shell!!


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"I walk in my own shoes..."
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"RE: I'm Not Getting It!!"
Posted by lovemydogdude on 03-17-06 at 01:51 AM
I've felt sorry for Lisa because of what I believed was a horrid initiation in that house. I too understand their concept yet believe their overall tactics were cruel. TODAY I'm not feeling so sorry for her..she is such a judgemental thing! Gossip gossip..judge judge..Lisa's full of fudge fudge..

"RE: I'm Not Getting It!!"
Posted by justfionablue on 03-17-06 at 11:55 AM
I think too much is being made about Tony's remark that he wasn't sure he wanted to be married so many years ago. That's a very common feeling for many people when they are about to commit to a "life partner". Most rational people have had a few thoughts of "Am I sure I'm making the right decision?" and especially for Tony as a young man after a bachelor party. (?!?) If it was more than just momentary "cold feet" it was Tony's responsibility to say "No, I'm not ready." He was the one who should have had a backbone if he was really serious about not wanting to marry Lisa.