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Original Message
"The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie"
Posted by Savahnna on 08-21-06 at 12:10 PM
I just think he earned this thread.I could make it more than three but I want it to be easy and others to play too.........
So...
1) His whole "too cool to live" delivery especially for a guy
in his 30's
2) He's Mean. And bully past puberty.
3) Generally Annoying
Table of contents
- RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie,Anthology, 12:43 PM, 08-21-06
- RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie,Miami Joe, 01:48 PM, 08-21-06
- RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie,Just Plain Bill, 02:15 PM, 08-21-06
- RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie,Savahnna, 02:21 PM, 08-21-06
- RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie,shakes the clown, 11:13 AM, 08-22-06
- RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie,Savahnna, 11:18 AM, 08-22-06
- RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie,JoshInSGV, 02:42 PM, 08-21-06
- RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie,KaysarMolester, 06:22 AM, 08-22-06
- RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie,nazpink, 09:32 AM, 08-22-06
- RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie,Savahnna, 11:00 AM, 08-22-06
- RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie,roxydog, 01:12 PM, 08-22-06
- RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie,Lasann, 01:19 PM, 08-22-06
- RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie,Savahnna, 02:53 PM, 08-22-06
- RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie,JoshInSGV, 03:04 PM, 08-22-06
- RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie,Sketchyboi, 03:44 PM, 08-22-06
- RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie,Savahnna, 04:08 PM, 08-22-06
- giggle,brvnkrz, 11:39 PM, 08-22-06
- RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie,Savahnna, 04:18 PM, 08-22-06
- RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie,LadyRose2005, 04:14 PM, 08-22-06
- RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie,Savahnna, 04:16 PM, 08-22-06
- RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie,roxydog, 05:42 PM, 08-22-06
- RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie,okaychatt, 06:37 PM, 08-22-06
- RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie,Dickslap, 11:00 PM, 08-22-06
- RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie,Savahnna, 10:35 AM, 08-23-06
- RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie,JustBNMe, 04:54 AM, 08-23-06
- RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie,Savahnna, 10:37 AM, 08-23-06
- RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie,4getabout it, 09:47 PM, 08-29-06
- RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie,rjrabbit, 09:30 PM, 08-30-06
- RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie,Savahnna, 10:54 AM, 08-31-06
- RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie,realitytvwatcher, 11:11 AM, 08-31-06
- RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie,JoshInSGV, 04:11 PM, 08-31-06
- RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie,maryellennaco, 11:54 AM, 08-31-06
- RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie,Lasann, 01:15 PM, 08-31-06
- RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie,pumpkinqueen, 03:04 PM, 08-31-06
- RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie,rjrabbit, 08:22 PM, 09-01-06
- RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie,pumpkinqueen, 01:11 PM, 09-04-06
- RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie,Savahnna, 04:45 PM, 09-05-06
- RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie,maryellennaco, 12:28 PM, 09-01-06
- RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie,Surveysez, 12:47 PM, 09-01-06
- RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie,Just Plain Bill, 01:43 PM, 09-01-06
- RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie,ValenciaJoe, 01:56 PM, 09-01-06
- RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie,JohnR, 08:40 PM, 09-03-06
- RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie,JohnR, 08:48 PM, 09-03-06
- RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie,MajorImpact, 04:37 PM, 09-05-06
- RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie,Ahtumbreez, 01:53 AM, 09-04-06
- RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie,KaysarMolester, 08:41 AM, 09-04-06
- RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie,Jims02, 09:48 AM, 09-04-06
- RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie,Savahnna, 11:25 AM, 09-04-06
- RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie,kingfish, 12:10 PM, 09-04-06
- RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie,maryellennaco, 02:34 PM, 09-04-06
- RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie,LadyT, 08:50 AM, 09-06-06
- RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie,maryellennaco, 11:44 AM, 09-06-06
- RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie,ginger, 11:51 AM, 09-06-06
Messages in this discussion
"RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie"
Posted by Anthology on 08-21-06 at 12:43 PM
I liked him at first, but now he is showing his true colors. He is a bully, but only if he knows Will is there to catch him. He would be nothing without Will.
"RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie"
Posted by Miami Joe on 08-21-06 at 01:48 PM
Howie, said it all on the way out, You punk!Mike is a punk, who without Will in the game would have been lost and voted out in the first few weeks, just like it happened in BB2.
He always consults with Will for everything.
I mean, did the guy ask Will if it was okay to start humping Erika? He probably did, but I missed it.
This is the same guy who said Diane was hot and therefore he wanted to keep her in the house. Diane hot?????
He is just a horny, bleached hair, Eminem wanna be, punk!!!
"RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie"
Posted by Just Plain Bill on 08-21-06 at 02:15 PM
He strikes me as the kind of guy who would instigate a fight between groups then hide as the 'festivities' get underway. Brave as the front man of a group then skipping to the back of the crowd.While I don't approve of Howie's actions on the way out the door, I certainly understand them. I'd be willing to bet that for a second or so Boogie came close to losing control of his bladder.
"RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie"
Posted by Savahnna on 08-21-06 at 02:21 PM
Boogie came
>close to losing control of
>his bladder. Now that's the kind of KARMA I'm talking about!! IT might not make National TV.....but the cameras wouldn't have enough notice to back off that one!!
"RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie"
Posted by shakes the clown on 08-22-06 at 11:13 AM
> Boogie came
>>close to losing control of
>>his bladder.
>
>
>
>
>
>Now that's the kind of KARMA
>I'm talking about!! IT
>might not make National TV...it would on Flava Of Love
"RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie"
Posted by Savahnna on 08-22-06 at 11:18 AM
>>Now that's the kind of KARMA
>>I'm talking about!! IT
>>might not make National TV
>
>
>
>...it would on Flava Of Love
>
lol...I had to Google that. How did I miss that one??
"RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie"
Posted by JoshInSGV on 08-21-06 at 02:42 PM
What I hate the most about Boogie is his cowardice. He acts tough when his opponents are not around. Did you guys see how he threw Howie's key across the room after Howie went out the door? Boogie is such a punk.
"RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie"
Posted by KaysarMolester on 08-22-06 at 06:22 AM
There's just not enough words to describe the hatred for Boogie! First of all,he's a middle-aged white guy that thinks he's a 20 year old black guy! Yeah boooooyyyyyy!!! Someone remind him of the Vanilla Ice debacle..He's Will's coat tail rider..He's a big bully,but,not a tough one..I thought he was gonna mess himself when Howie got in his face!! He looks like an old woman and I'll never understand how he gets laid AT ALL!!
"RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie"
Posted by nazpink on 08-22-06 at 09:32 AM
Boogie isn't my cup of tea either. I don't hate the guy, but he plays the role of annoying side kick quite well.
"RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie"
Posted by Savahnna on 08-22-06 at 11:00 AM
> He looks
>like an old woman and
>I'll never understand how he
>gets laid AT ALL!! YES!
"RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie"
Posted by roxydog on 08-22-06 at 01:12 PM
I am amazed at how seriously some of you are about your hate for Boogie. I am guessing most of you are also LOJers.
Yes, Boogie would be gone without Will. But Howie would have been gone long ago without Janelle. He was her anoying side kick.
Boogie has many bad traits but Howie has most of those same traits plus he showed he can be violent.
Oh but I forgot that Howie was part of the LOJ...
In the words of Boogie "Get a life".
"RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie"
Posted by Lasann on 08-22-06 at 01:19 PM
My dislike of Boogie is based on his personality of arrogance without anything backing it up like looks, smarts, charisma, humor, even poise. IMHO a broad speculation that all LOJers hate Boggie just because is quite narrow minded. We dislike Boogie because he's not likeable.Howie I don't like and I don't dislike. I wouldn't want to be around Howie for long periods but I find his sophomoric antics to be mildly amusing in bits. He does seem to be a rather faithful friend and we all need those. And FTR, I find Howie to be 100% more physically attractive than Boogie and I only find Howie to be a 4.5 on a scale of 10.

It a Tribe original!!!
"RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie"
Posted by Savahnna on 08-22-06 at 02:53 PM
>In the words of Boogie "Get
>a life". Sounds like you need one more.
Who peed in your cornflakes this morning??
"RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie"
Posted by JoshInSGV on 08-22-06 at 03:04 PM
LAST EDITED ON 08-22-06 AT 03:06 PM (EST)Oops! I answered to the wrong thread.
"RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie"
Posted by Sketchyboi on 08-22-06 at 03:44 PM
Simply put, Boogie is a nerd. A dork. I am embarrassed for him and his behavior 99% of the time. What a friggin goober.
"RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie"
Posted by Savahnna on 08-22-06 at 04:08 PM
I
>am embarrassed for him and
>his behavior 99% of the
>time. What a friggin
>goober. I've got his back. I'll be embarrassed for
him the other 1% of the time.
"giggle"
Posted by brvnkrz on 08-22-06 at 11:39 PM
I love the word goober.
Sig by Bob-Because gay sheep jokes never grow old
"RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie"
Posted by Savahnna on 08-22-06 at 04:18 PM
>Oops! I answered to the wrong
>thread.
Don't do it again..
"RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie"
Posted by LadyRose2005 on 08-22-06 at 04:14 PM
Boogie is a complete wannabe:He wants to be Will, he wants to be black, he wants to be young, he wants to be hot.
He's just a school yard bully that never grew up.
"RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie"
Posted by Savahnna on 08-22-06 at 04:16 PM
>He's just a school yard bully
>that never grew up. And I'm pretty sure he was the one in the school yard that got picked on by the bullies
"RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie"
Posted by roxydog on 08-22-06 at 05:42 PM
Exactly, and Howie was being the bully to him again.Boogie is a nerd, he does want to be liked too much, but Howie is just an #####. I guess I don't care how much better looking he is...
"RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie"
Posted by okaychatt on 08-22-06 at 06:37 PM
Hi Savahnna.I don't hate Boogie, but I'm not enamored of him, either.
His puppy dog loyalty to Will is almost unnerving. Hopefully, it's because Boogie realizes he needs Will's brains and not because he really adores the ground Will walks on.
Unless he's playing the audience as to really liking Erika, I think he's using her for bed games, only to eventually toss her aside. Of course, she's doing the same thing, so maybe they deserve each other?
Everyone is entitled to my opinion.
"RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie"
Posted by Dickslap on 08-22-06 at 11:00 PM
He thinks he's all that and a bag of chips when actually he's a piece of #####.He's a 30 something wigger.
I still can't forgive him for that ridiculous proposal to Krusta the Skank back at the end of season two.
Hard only choosing three!
"RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie"
Posted by Savahnna on 08-23-06 at 10:35 AM
>Hi Savahnna.
>
>I don't hate Boogie,
Hey Okay.....I don't hate Boogie either.
It's a very strong word let alone one used on a Reality TV person I never met. I really do though hate some of the things he does and represents.
I have no idea what's going on with him and Erika. Like I've said many times...When you get to know these folks a little more after initial 15 minutes....they lose thier "hero appeal" fast. I was a big Erika fan before ....
"RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie"
Posted by JustBNMe on 08-23-06 at 04:54 AM
I can't stand Boogers personality plain and simple. He is a punk, acts way too young for his age, he looks and acts like a moron and has the ugliest old lady pointed chin and nose kind of face I have seen in a long time. He looks like a weirdo with how he does his hair and the things he wears. He carries himself like they show the guys in the hood on shows like Law and Order or something. He is riding on Will's coat tails and when he is near Will he acts like he is gay and having a secret affair with Will or something. Bogger can't fart without asking Will if it is okay and he follows him around like a dog. It is so sickening. It's like Booger has no mind of his own. His arrogance is very unattractive as well. He is sure full of himself and I don't believe he has any of the qualities of an All Star nor does he even qualify as a decent human being. I can't wait til his scrawny "wanna be in the hood" butt is ejected from the house. I'd love to see him have to face Howie in the sequester house without big brother Willie by his side. He'd be left alone to fight his own battles and would have no one to protect him.
"RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie"
Posted by Savahnna on 08-23-06 at 10:37 AM
I'd love
>to see him have to
>face Howie in the sequester
>house without big brother Willie
>by his side. He'd be
>left alone to fight his
>own battles and would have
>no one to protect him. Oh yeah. I'm with ya!
"RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie"
Posted by 4getabout it on 08-29-06 at 09:47 PM
And he's UGLY!!!!
"RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie"
Posted by rjrabbit on 08-30-06 at 09:30 PM
I came here looking for a Booger hate thread and sure enough I found one. To narrow down my hatred to just three things is difficult but I'll try.1) I hate his hawkish nose and pointy chin. He looks like the evil witch in Sleeping Beauty.
2) He's way too arogant and doesn't have any reason to be.
3) He's using Erika. I heard that she's been giving him hand jobs and then when he's done he just rolls over and ignores her. What in the world could she possibly see in him. I hope she's just using him too.
Okay I feel better now.
"RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie"
Posted by Savahnna on 08-31-06 at 10:54 AM
I heard
>that she's been giving him
>hand jobs and then when
>he's done he just rolls
>over and ignores her.I heard that too. CG told me. 
"RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie"
Posted by realitytvwatcher on 08-31-06 at 11:11 AM
I read that too on another site that gives details based on the live feeds. That is disgusting. She is such a ho-bag. I'm sure she is making her parents real proud! In addition to Erika giving him hand jobs, he often takes care of himself in the bathrooms! Considering he rolls over afterwards and ignores her most of the time, he must be thinking of Will when he's doing it.
Maybe she is using him but $500,000 is not worth doing that - especially when you are not getting anything in return. To do that and then have the person roll over and turn away from you is sad. She'll soon see when her Pimp Daddy chooses Will over her.
"RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie"
Posted by JoshInSGV on 08-31-06 at 04:11 PM
It's very disturbing to see someone like Erika, who at first glance seems like a level-headed person getting sucked into bed games like these. Did Erika miss Big Brother 5? Did she not speak with Diane about Drew's sexual manipulation? Erika and Booger's relationship is almost a mirror image of Drew and Diane from two seasons ago, with the only difference that I can see why Diane would be blinded by Drew's good looks. On the other hand, I don't have the slightest clue why Erika subjects herself to that kind of treatment. Erika's behavior does speak volumes about her insecurities and low self-esteem. It's pathetic.
"RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie"
Posted by maryellennaco on 08-31-06 at 11:54 AM
I don't HATE Boogie, I just think he's obnoxious. The only reason he's gone as far as he has is because of Will. I think everyone can agree on that one.
I really cannot stand his attitude, either. Somehow, he's gotten it into his tiny pea brain that he's "somebody"... He's somebody, all right. Somebody skanky! And speaking of skanky, I used to think Erica was okay until she started in with Booger. I used to think she had a brain - guess I was wrong!
"RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie"
Posted by Lasann on 08-31-06 at 01:15 PM
1. His voice
2. His personalityand mostly
3. He's on my TV

It a Tribe original!!!
"RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie"
Posted by pumpkinqueen on 08-31-06 at 03:04 PM
i think it would be easier for me to list what i like about Boogie:1. he is friends with Will.
yeah, that's about it. i really want to know--why does he want people to call him Boogie? that nickname and his stupid hats bug the carp outta me!
Fembots by Tribe: L.O.J., One for all, all for Janelle!don't get me wrong, there are some very hip 30-something white men who could get away with that nickname. he, however, is not one of them.
"RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie"
Posted by rjrabbit on 09-01-06 at 08:22 PM
I have to steal the siggie. I saw Knockers using it too!
Fembots
by Tribe: L.O.J., One for all, all for Janelle!
"RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie"
Posted by pumpkinqueen on 09-04-06 at 01:11 PM
oh, no problem--i think i actually lifted it from her--i guess i should ask next time.oh, and my strong dislike for Boogie grows each time he is on my tv screen. he was on some show on E! talking about Geisha House and all the special things they do for celebrities, but he was wearing one of his stupid hats--which he should not be allowed to wear--so i was too distracted to pay attention to what he was saying.
Fembots by Tribe: L.O.J., One for all, all for Janelle!
"RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie"
Posted by Savahnna on 09-05-06 at 04:45 PM
he was wearing one
>of his stupid hats--
Yes...the irony of the hats....he calls CG "Middle Aged"... His hats make him look like a "middle age wanna be"......and a pimp
"RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie"
Posted by maryellennaco on 09-01-06 at 12:28 PM
I suppose being called "Boogie" is better than being called "Goober" which is a closer to the truth nickname.
"RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie"
Posted by Surveysez on 09-01-06 at 12:47 PM
1. He exists.
2. His existance has been brought to me via my TV.
3. He is still there.Please, let him be thrown under the bus - on BB if not literaly.
"RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie"
Posted by Just Plain Bill on 09-01-06 at 01:43 PM
I'm sure someone will take care of that (throwing under bus) once the game is over. This guy was wallowing in a Miami Hurricanes football shirt last night and I'm sure has raised the ire of Miami fans everywhere. Consider it done.
"RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie"
Posted by ValenciaJoe on 09-01-06 at 01:56 PM
LAST EDITED ON 09-01-06 AT 02:11 PM (EST)Before I start on the hate Boogie thread, someone mentioned he looks like the witch from the Wizard of Oz. To me, he looks like the witch on the old HR Pufnstuf TV series. Follow this link and look at 1/3rd down the page and you'll see why:
http://www.dvdtimes.co.uk/content.php?contentid=13449
Three things (out of many) that I hate most about Booger:
1 - he's a wigger
2 - the constant advertising for his businesses. Can he not wear a shirt that either promotes a team that he wants to be a fan of or a business he owns? I remember reading somewhere that said that CBS had to edit his blog because of his constant self-promoting of his restaurants.
3 - his voice
"RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie"
Posted by JohnR on 09-03-06 at 08:40 PM
1. He is a disgusting, repulsive, lying coward.
2. I really can't believe he's smart enough to run a business, as he can't make a move without Will. Every business I've ever been involved with required 24 hour a day attention. I don't know of any legitimate business that allows for a two month vacation.
3. He is the second ugliest man on TV, right behind Will.
"RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie"
Posted by JohnR on 09-03-06 at 08:48 PM
And three more:1. He must still think he's a teen, because he dresses like a 14 year old.
2. He tries to use big words like Will but doesn't quite pull it off. His lack of education is apparent.
3. Slimy, he's an oil spill, though not as big of one as Will.
"RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie"
Posted by MajorImpact on 09-05-06 at 04:37 PM
>Before I start on the hate Boogie thread, someone mentioned he
>looks like the witch from the Wizard of Oz.
>To me he looks like the witch on the old HR Pufnstuf TV series. No, no, you're all wrong - he looks like E.T. !


Mike Boogie - phone home!
"Mom?" <sniff sniff>
"They voted me off the show!" <sniff sniff>
"RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie"
Posted by Ahtumbreez on 09-04-06 at 01:53 AM
He's a skanky hosebag that's nothing without Will.He's a freakin' crybaby. "Boohoo, Will threw me under the bus in BB2, he owes this to me." Get over it already.
And, Dolce sucks.
"RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie"
Posted by KaysarMolester on 09-04-06 at 08:41 AM
Ya know, his self promotion with those stupid resturant T-shirts is very annoying..And guess what Booger,if your involved with these places,I'll be sure to avoid them!! He really is a dispicable exuse for a man..I wonder if his Mommy is as proud of him now as she was weeks ago in her interview..He really does make me sick.
"RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie"
Posted by Jims02 on 09-04-06 at 09:48 AM
I just can't stand the way he uses women in the Big Brother game. Last night's episode made me really sad in listening to some of Erika's diary room comments. It's just sad. Will & Boogie's strategy of "baby talk" with Erika just strikes me as a little too mean and personal.This show is getting difficult to watch.
"RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie"
Posted by Savahnna on 09-04-06 at 11:25 AM
>I just can't stand the way
>he uses women in the
>Big Brother game. Last
>night's episode made me really
>sad in listening to some
>of Erika's diary room comments.
> It's just sad.
>Will & Boogie's strategy of
>"baby talk" with Erika just
>strikes me as a little
>too mean and personal.
>
>This show is getting difficult to
>watch.
I agree completely
"RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie"
Posted by kingfish on 09-04-06 at 12:10 PM
He's a Macaca!

"RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie"
Posted by maryellennaco on 09-04-06 at 02:34 PM
MACACA!!! ROFLMAO!!!!
Perfect!
"RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie"
Posted by LadyT on 09-06-06 at 08:50 AM
I went to JR High with him (he's a few years older than me) and my best friend dated a good friend of his. He's an annoying piece of crap.1. He embarrasses his mother. THe whole Krista thing, his mother wouldn't show her face for like a week. I worked with his mother at the time.
2. He used to be a coke dealer
3. He used to works as Chandler's stand in on Friends and stole some of the film which he was dumb enough to get caught.
4. He also doesn't know what name to use, should it be Malin or Carri, pick a freaking name!
"RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie"
Posted by maryellennaco on 09-06-06 at 11:44 AM
The lunacy of his pea brain really showed itself when he jumped off the volcano last night saying,"One of you will take me with you"... I definitely thought he'd flipped his wig on that one. What a goober..
"RE: The Three Things I Hate most about Boogie"
Posted by ginger on 09-06-06 at 11:51 AM
Not to mention his self-important comparison to Richard Hatch. He couldn't outwit Hatch's toejam.