I know, what a comparision. I have to wonder if Will maybe studied up on Rich. They both were hated at the beginning of their respective shows. Rich was a master at manipulation. He had his alliance and sub alliances. When it was down to the final three, he blew the immunity challenge because he knew that Rudy would pick him for the Final Two and Kelly would also, knowing she would lose against Rudy. However, if Rich won that IC, he would have no qualms about voting Rudy off. If Rudy was in the Final two, he would have won.

Chilltown was an alliance, and within it were suballiances. Will has manipulated every situation from calling a meeting where everyone yells at each other to feeding lies to everyone. Yet he, like Rich is honest about his lies. Both told the public exactly what they are doing. I have no doubt that if Will wins HOH, he will put up Nicole and Hardy for eviction, regardless how many times Nicole threatens him.

The public hated both of these men in the beginning, yet a lot of people have come to respect how they played this game. They both know that these are games to be won. Rich succeeded and it looks like Will may also.

-----------------------
"So what are my chances
of honest advances
I'd say low
Better to win
by admitting my sin
than to lose with a halo"
-Evita

• RE: Will and Rich Hatch,Fast Eddie, 08:49 AM, 08-29-01
• RE: Will and Rich Hatch,Mumbo Jumbo, 02:02 PM, 08-29-01
  • RE: Will and Rich Hatch,Fast Eddie, 02:41 PM, 08-29-01
    • RE: Will and Rich Hatch,Mumbo Jumbo, 05:49 PM, 08-29-01
      • RE: Will and Rich Hatch,Fast Eddie, 09:56 AM, 08-30-01
        • RE: Will and Rich Hatch,Asskicker, 10:17 AM, 08-30-01
          • RE: Will and Rich Hatch,Fast Eddie, 11:43 AM, 08-30-01
            • RE: Will and Rich Hatch,MakeItStop, 12:14 PM, 08-30-01
              • RE: Will and Rich Hatch,Fast Eddie, 01:02 PM, 08-30-01
                • RE: Will and Rich Hatch,LadyT, 05:41 PM, 08-30-01
                  • RE: Will and Rich Hatch,Fast Eddie, 09:15 AM, 08-31-01
                    • RE: Will and Rich Hatch,MDSkinner, 12:33 PM, 09-04-01
• Will IS Richard Hatch! (Spoilers!),PigFace, 08:13 PM, 08-31-01
  • RE: Will IS Richard Hatch! (Spoilers!),Fast Eddie, 09:44 AM, 09-01-01
    • RE: Will IS Richard Hatch! (Spoilers!),Asskicker, 11:22 AM, 09-01-01
• RE: Lady T....I agree Will and Richard Hatch are,Dalton, 01:04 PM, 09-05-01
  • Will and Rich had different strategies,Thrill Seeker, 03:16 PM, 09-05-01
  • RE: Lady T....I agree Will and Richard Hatch are,LadyT, 05:14 PM, 09-05-01

You have summarized the situation beautifully and perfectly. This is the kind of thing I like to see and that was badly lacking in S2 - a discussion by the players of what they are up to, so the viewing public can understand the game better. I was surprised Will did this, as the others would get a chance to see it before voting and realize how they had been manipulated. On the other hand, perhaps he feels that they will grudgingly then have to admit he played best and thus vote for him.

Just one thing: I don't recall a specific instance where Rich lied to anyone or voted contrary to what he said he would.

Both Richard and Will are masters at lying and manipulation. But Rich had a huge advantage in that the members of the jury did not know what he said about them until after they voted. Kelly has stated that two members of the jury who voted for Rich (Sean and Greg?) have confided that they would have voted for her if they could do it over again. Sean was asked on TV if he had any regrets about voting for Rich and he rambled on about how he gave America a villian to hate. Gervase said he had no regrets about voting for Kelly.

I am really enjoying Will on the show and wouldn't mind if he won. But as things currently stand, Hardy seems to be the only person in the house that Will would have a chance of beating in the final two. Will has said horrible things about all HG's not in Chilltown and it will be very tough to give $500,000 to the man who called you the dumbest person he ever met. I think the other HG's may realize that this is all part of Will's shtick, but it's not you and me getting trashed on national TV.

>Both Richard and Will are masters
>at lying and manipulation.

I ask again: name an incident in which Rich lied.

>Kelly has stated that two
>members of the jury who
>voted for Rich (Sean and
>Greg?) have confided that they
>would have voted for her
>if they could do it
>over again. Sean was asked
>on TV if he had
>any regrets about voting for
>Rich and he rambled on
>about how he gave America
>a villian to hate. Gervase
>said he had no regrets
>about voting for Kelly.

Remember, apart from Rich, the players on S1 were mostly pretty terrible at the game. They are very poor judges of who was the best player. Did anyone asked Kelly her views during S2? Who did the players on S2 emulate more? Will the players on S3 be more like Rich, or Kelly? Who do the BB2 players resemble more? Which is better TV?

> I ask again: name an incident
>in which Rich lied.

I am basing this on a quote from Rich after the game where he stated that lying was essential to winning Survivor. From that comment, I assumed he did lie to others on the show. Do I remember a specific lie told to a specific person? No. I do recall Probst asking him if there was an alliance during tribal cousel post-merger. He either lied and said no or gave an extremely evasive answer. I guess it depends on your definition of lying.

Also remember that by the time we saw the show, Rich had already won. The picture Burnett gave us of Rich was pretty dark without showing every minute of his scheming.

Do
>I remember a specific lie
>told to a specific person?
>No. I do recall Probst
>asking him if there was
>an alliance during tribal cousel
>post-merger. He either lied
>and said no or gave
>an extremely evasive answer. I
>guess it depends on your
>definition of lying.

No, he didn't say No. You're thinking of Sue. Rich gave an evasive answer, like almost everyone does every day, when they want to avoid answering something unpleasant. It's a far cry from what Will has been doing.

> The picture
>Burnett gave us of Rich
>was pretty dark without showing
>every minute of his scheming.

I find this common attitude fascinating. People all remember Rich as a bad guy, but can't remember why. They say he lied and stabbed people in the back. But they can never recall an incident where he actually did that. (Whereas Tina was shown lying and backstabbing, yet that was okay.) What people (including most of the players) hated was the manipulation and the alliances. Yet now, it is de rigueur in almost all reality shows, not just Survivor. Rich was just ahead of his time. Perhaps Will is as well. After all, most games are based on lying and deception. You false-card in bridge, bluff in poker, fake in football, etc., even with your best friends. It is an expected part of the game, not dark and evil.

Oh come on! Richard lied like crazy. Don't tell me you expect people to actually remember specific incedents that happened over a year ago! If I had tapes to Survivor 1, I could probably go through them and find you about 200 times where Richard lied. Although people don't remember the details, the lying was there!

>Oh come on! Richard lied
>like crazy. Don't tell
>me you expect people to
>actually remember specific incedents that
>happened over a year ago!

Actually, I asked the question a few times (on a different board) during the time when the last 6 or 7 episodes were airing. Nobody could think of specific incidents then either. And the morning after each episode nobody could point to an incident of lying or betrayal. Yet people kept saying he did.

> If I had tapes
>to Survivor 1, I could
>probably go through them and
>find you about 200 times
>where Richard lied. Although
>people don't remember the details,
>the lying was there!

No you couldn't. It wasn't there. I looked for it carefully. This is why (as a former student of psychology) I find it so interesting. False memories. Transference. Like thinking he said No to Probst when it was Sue. We saw the same phenomenon when Joel got voted out for calling women stupider than cows (remember Jenna: Moooo) - but it was Gervase!

I don't really want to get in the middle of this debate about whether Rich lied or not. I don't think we ever saw Rich lie. But I do think we saw him manipulate people. I think people did not like Rich because he was so egotistical.

I think people
>did not like Rich because
>he was so egotistical.

I think you may have nailed it. The same has been true of Will. I know I certainly feel that way. However, as the game proceeds, we have gained respect for how each has successfully played the game.

I think Rich lied, by he lied by omission. Like giving the evasive answer to the alliance question. He lied by omission to either Sue or Rudy when he said, it will be you and me in the Final Two. He also told Sean that it would be Sean, Rudy and RIch in the Final Three (this was in the Survivor Book).

All in all, Rich played a masterful game, and I think Will is too. What would be the greatest would be if Will and Monica form a secret alliance. Oh well, I can dream.

-----------------------
"So what are my chances
of honest advances
I'd say low
Better to win
by admitting my sin
than to lose with a halo"
-Evita

>I think Rich lied, by he
>lied by omission. Like
>giving the evasive answer to
>the alliance question.

Like someone said, it depends on your definition of lying. We all give evasive answers to questions we don't want to answer(Wife: Honey, am I getting fat?) If that's the only example, it's pretty mild, certainly compared with Will, or even Tina.

>the Final Three (this was
>in the Survivor Book).

I have no doubt he told lies, documented after the fact. My point was: we didn't see that during the show, yet people accused him of being a liar and backstabber during the show. It's all about perception. But even if it were true, why was it bad for him, but admirable in everyone since?

>Will is too. What
>would be the greatest would
>be if Will and Monica
>form a secret alliance.
>Oh well, I can dream.

Why dream? It's seems like a no-brainer. Hardy and Nicole have made no secret of their alliance. I don't see that Monica and Will have any choice but to ally, at least long enough to kick out H or N.

I agree with Fast Eddie, Rich did not lie as far as I remember. He merely played the part of the plitician, where he did not ever lie, but never really answered the questions all the way. He did a great job of manipulating the game, and playing the game so that he would make it to the final two.

Everyone percieves him as a lier and evil, because he was able to pick off the good guys one by one. That makes him seem evil and like a lier. I can not recall one instance where the guy actually lied, though.

I just heard that Will gave up the final HOH challenge because he made a deal with Monica to nominate Hardy and Nicole together! Monica is HOH, and now it will look like Will never backstabbed them! This guy has to be in some way related to Richard Hatch!

You've got that right. It's exactly the strategy needed in the circumstances. He gets rid of an opponent, breaks an alliance, and is still eligible to win HoH next time, to choose his opponent in the final (if it works that way).

Questions: did Nicole drop out before the deal was made? (She was perched pretty precariously on that bed.) Or did she hear the deal?

Nicole was pissed the whole time because Jeff sent a banner saying he knows about the hot tub foreplay she did with Will and that he's hurt. (You guys remember HEARING the plane in the live broadcast when they began the HOH?!) Will grabbed the blanket from her, and she grabbed it back, inadvertantly taking her hand off the key. Then she went to cry inside, and Will SORT OF made a deal. He told Monica what he thinks he should do, but Monica did NOT say yes or no. She just went "hmmmmmm". Then he accepted a big prop of peanut butter for a prize and it was all over for him.

I think it was the best move for him. That way, he doesn't have to backstab, and he still has a chance of breaking them up. They are PISSED at him for not winning. I'll bet Monica WILL nominate them because remember, Nicole broke Monica and Krista up because of the "power of two". Now it's Monica's turn to break up the "power of two".

Will is gonna win. I'm placing all bets on that.

two of a kind! I haven't been on this Board due to computer problems but I have watched BB2 and done my fair share of screaming at the TV. LOL.

First, IMO, the whole "Chill Town" (Will, Shannon & Boogie) ACT of "we are the only cool kids and all the rest of these dope's are just LOSERS" was so obnoxious it made me want to hurl!!!

Will had 2 strikes against him (for me); in that, being from Miami Beach doesn't make you the "greatest" and being a doctor doesn't make you "special". Also, any man who spends that much mirror/body shaving/hair obsession time doesn't leave much left to care about anybody ELSE!!

After last night's show...where Will dropped out of HOH and Monica put H/N up for eviction; thereby putting the one vote in Will's hands --- I thought geeze even Richard Hatch was "sincere" 10% of the time!! Will is 100% Bullsh!t!!!

Needless to say if I had been in that awful game Dr. Evil's tight arse would be G-O-N-E by now. Furthermore, I've lost all respect for Hardy after all his big talk about booting out Chill Town and being HOH three times but Will is still there??? Too bad Hardy didn't "buy a brain" to go along with him brawn and macho image...now it's TOO LATE!!

When Hardy & Nicole actually sat there and said about keeping will around "because he is FUN"; OMG...how silly can you get??

I won't compare BB with Survivor because there are just too many differences....but if Will wins BB it will only be because Hardy and Nicole were dumb beyond all logic, imo.

Dalton

LAST EDITED ON 09-05-01 AT 03:20 PM (EST)

I don't think they played the game the same at all.
Rich was a corporate trainer who knew how to manipulate people in a business like way. I don't remember Rich lieing about anything
but he did a lot of talking behind peoples backs. Rich wasn't an angel but people sensed where they stood with him, whether it was good or bad.
Will is a blatant two faced liar but he's very good at it. His lies seem convincing to them so he's been able to get away with it until the ex-house guests see him in the diary room.

Dalton, you rock!!!!
However, I love Will. Mainly because I hate Nicole and Hardy so much. They are sooooo stupid, they deserve everything they get. They are so not going anywhere after this is over, but Will, having studied the Richard Hatch course of manipulation, will take the media world by storm.

As Jeff Varner said, "Will is my God" Mine too.

-----------------------
"So what are my chances
of honest advances
I'd say low
Better to win
by admitting my sin
than to lose with a halo"
-Evita