Why should it matter to me if they think i'm a man. Would it offend people if I were an openly gay man, who frequently comented on other hot men?

~A Girl Named Tim~

I'm not so much bad as I am extremely oversexed.

I can't speak for Nutz but I don't think the statement was meant to suggest you were an openly gay man. Nutz has never had a problem with me being the gay man talking about how hot other men are!

LAST EDITED ON 04-10-05 AT 01:40 PM (EST)

Nah, it wouldn't offend people at all.

I just wanted to point out the possible confusion, that's all.

i was just kidding around anyways....Its been my experience that all the peeps on the board are great, I just I'd be indignant...

~Tim~

I Love Ishe!

While I definitely didn't choose my favorites (Ishe, Alfonso, Peter) based on looks, Ishe is a good looking guy for sure. He looks much better on TV (on The Contender and on FNF) than he does in pictures. Tarick and Miguel are also quite attractive, IMO.

cute screen name...I meant to mention that before...which one do you prefer? I've never been to VT but have always wanted to go and one of my best friends lives in IA

...And don't forget Fraza and Bosante...

not my type...but to each his/her own

Got blog?

Touche

LAST EDITED ON 04-25-05 AT 05:40 PM (EST)

When it comes to sports I really don't care about I chose based on looks.
Ask me who my favorite basketball team is... I will tell you the 76ers (Allen Iverson is HOT) or whatever team signed Okafor.
My favorite race car dirvier is Jimmie Johnson (guess the reason). Baseball: A-Rod and Jeter's teams. Hockey: I don't know of any good-looking guys... The fact of the matter is when I don't know anything about the sport I base my preferences on looks.

Football is the exception... I love football and understand enough about it to not base my favorite players looks alone. That being said, I can still probably tell you the best looking player on any team. (Jason Taylor is the best looking in the NFL.

ETA: I miss Ishe already. My new favorite is Jesse. For pretty much similar reasons
~Tim~

I like the weather in Texas, but not the politics or the scenery (though that may just be Lubbock), vermont has the politics and its beautiful, but its soo cold. Iowa has my family, I like my family

It seems to me that Ishe is getting a deliberately skewed edit. In fact, it's possible that he's being edited as the "villain" of the show.

1) In the first show, we saw (on the Yahoo! site) that Ishe and Jonathan were close because of their religion and their experiences. But we weren't shown that on TV. Thus, in episode 2, when we see Ishe pulling for Jonathan, it looks like he's doing it to spite Jesse.

2) In episode 2, again on the Yahoo! site, we saw Ishe walk off the show after Jesse trashed him in the press conference. He was clearly emotionally exhausted at that point. Note that, at least as far as I can remember, we never saw Ishe trashing Jesse -- we just saw Ishe saying that it should be his choice when (not whom) he fought.

3) Cameramen had to have filmed the handshake deals between the two sides about the remaining matches, including the deal between Jimmy and Anthony to fight each other -- the deal that Sugar Ray discussed in last week's video clip. Yet we haven't seen hide nor hair of those deals.

4) We also saw Anthony siding with the team plan on the Web site (when Sergio and Miguel wanted to deviate from the plan). Yet, when Anthony double-crossed everyone and picked Brent, we've seen Anthony self-righteously claiming that he was the one who had to feed his kids ... and we've seen what looked like Ishe trying to bully him otherwise, even though, in context, it would be seen as Ishe sticking up for the other fighters and for the handshake deals that they all made.

5) When Ishe returned from defeating Ahmed, the title of the clip on the Web site is entitled "Ishe: Sore Winner." I defy anyone to find anything in that clip to justify the title.

6) When Ishe made what seemed like a very principled decision to not participate in this week's reward for the West (and one which Ishe stuck with, even as Ja Rule was handing out $2500 watches right next to him), the Web site discussed Ishe's "pouting," and it captioned the picture of Ishe sitting out with the phrase, "There's no "I" in team but there is one in Ishe, who boycotts the West's Reward." We also saw Alfonso agreeing to forget about Anthony's actions before the reward. Which seems less phony to you: throwing a fit and then changing your mind before the reward (as Alfonso did), or sitting the reward out (as Ishe did)?

7) Here's this week's Yahoo! question for the show, which seems to me to be trying to build up the Ishe-as-bad-guy idea:
Ishe has talked trash with opponent Ahmed and teammates Jesse and Anthony. What will he do next?
- Challenge Tommy to a cuss-off
- Out-pray vanquished Bible-study buddy Brent
- Criticize Jackie's fashion sense
- Audition vs. Sly for the lead in the next Rambo

...and so on.

So why make Ishe into a villain? Is it because he behaved as a villain? Well, no -- for example, he hasn't nagged anyone into building a shelter in a flood plain shortly before the river rises.
Is it because Burnett sees him as a villain? Unlikely. Is it because nobody else among the final eight is willing to state his feelings as strongly, and Burnett knows that every reality show needs someone like that up front? Possibly. But there must be a reason.

Obviously I'm biased, but I think you're exactly right. I was just talking to him five minutes ago, and he asked me what I thought abouthim not going on the reward. I told him that, personally, I thought he had no choice but to sit it out. Had he gone,he would have looked hypocritical. In the event, to my eyes at least, the others were the ones who looked hypocritical. He's still disappointed the others went, especially Joey. (Sergio, he said, was up front from the beginning that he had no problem with what Tony did).

From the beginning of the show, Ishe told me that a lot of the guys were really quiet and reserved about saying or doing much on camera, whereas he wasn't, and as a consequence he knew he would be getting more face time than most. He doesn't seem distraught about the way he is being portrayed ("Man, this show would be nothing without me") but you're right, from what we have seen and what we know, it would be easy to have a slightly different edit that would give Ishe just as much face time but convey a completely different feeling about him.

As the Veteran EPMB maven, what do you think are his reasons for portraying Ishe this way? Presumably, it has something to do with the way events unfold -- i.e. it fits an evolving storyline?

Well, I completely agree with your assessment. I mentioned in the Jaun v. Tarick episode thread that I felt Ishe made the right decision to sit out the reward and felt it was a principled decision to give up the reward.

Something VFW said (quoting Ishe) above me sums up my feelings on why Ishe's getting the negative edit.

He doesn't seem distraught about the way he is being portrayed ("Man, this show would be nothing without me")

I get the idea that the rest of these guys are pretty boring (in terms of reality tv standards). Villains (in EPMB-land) tend to stick around for a while, and often come out on top...perhaps some of the other possible villains (Jesse/Anthony - the two real hypocrites) don't make it past the next round (not very hard to believe)...and what fun is a final four with no one interesting/edgy/villanous?

I'm thinking that Ishe's negative edit is probably a sign that he'll be around for a while AND that others with negative-edit-potential won't (namely, Anthony...possibly Jesse AKA Drunk White Frat Boy).

I haven't gotten a good enough feel of the editing/storylines for The Contender yet (on the whole). Maybe we should ask VS to watch and post her thoughts.

Got blog?

VFW, I've been wondering about Ishe's edit since episode 2, as you know. When I saw the "Ishe: Sore Winner" clip title back in Ep. 4, I first started to wonder if he wasn't being slanted as a villain.

PhoenixMons, I agree with this:

>Villains (in EPMB-land) tend to stick around for a while, and
>often come out on top...perhaps some of the other possible
>villains (Jesse/Anthony - the two real hypocrites) don't make it
>past the next round (not very hard to believe)...and what
>fun is a final four with no one interesting/edgy/villanous?
>
>I'm thinking that Ishe's negative edit is probably a sign that
>he'll be around for a while AND that others with
>negative-edit-potential won't (namely, Anthony...possibly Jesse
>AKA Drunk White Frat Boy).

Certainly Burnett has had a way of making his villains into stars. With the exception of Omarosa, it would have been possible to give each of those villains a positive edit (yes, even Jerri Manthey, who was double-crossed by Colby and Tina when they voted off Mitchell but nevertheless remained totally loyal to her alliance with Colby and Amber right up to the point when Colby double-crossed her again). <Note, for example, that there was no positive comment about Ishe volunteering for this week's challenge to help out Joey and Tarick. The only fight winners who have competed in a challenge for the West are Alfonso (ep. 2, when Jesse sat out -- I think because he was planning to fight that week, though we were shown that Ishe was supposed to fight!), Jesse (ep. 6) and Ishe (ep. 7).>

And I agree that it seems likely that other potential villains (way-overweight Jesse, Anthony) leave in the quarterfinals, so Ishe may have become the villain by default. You cannot make Peter Manfredo into a villain, simply because the comeback story is too positive. Juan's just a kid. So who is left? Sergio? He's really the only other person with the right temperament for the role -- but he's clearly not a leader on his team right now.

However, I also think there is a possibility that Ishe does something which is supposed to "reform" him in our eyes. You can't "reform" someone who isn't in need of being reformed!

We'll have to see.

Yup. Agree on the 'reform' thing, too. I was going to add that whole angle to my post, but I didn't really have a good feel for what this sort of redeeming act/quality would be.

When I was trying to think about what Ishe's story arc might be, the only thing I kept coming back to was some sort of epiphany...hopefully nothing like the half-assed and extremely lame epiphany that Kendra had in Africa in TAR6 ("I just want to take all the kids home with me even though I just said I can't believe these people are breeding" *gag*) but along those lines.

So we'll probably be treated to EPMB-style redemption of Ishe come the semis (which will probably begin after he pummels his newest "enemy", Anthony)...and I have a feeling it's going to involve Alfonso in some way (seems EPMB is setting them up to be on opposite ends with Alfonso's comments about dropping the situation, not wanting to appear childish like Ishe, brak brak brak)...unless that was simply to make Ishe look bad and it didn't matter who said it...

Got blog?

LAST EDITED ON 04-15-05 AT 02:41 AM (EST)

I don't think Ishe was wrong in not going out with the guys. I would've done the same thing. Hell he even turned down a bad-a** watch out of principle. He didn't sell out and he stuck to his guns. I surprised Joey went, though. After all, you know...

I did find it funny when Anthony's sitting there complaining to Joey of all people about how he doesn't understand why Ishe's not going out with them etc., etc. And Joey's sitting there like "mmm hmmm whatever motherf*cker..." How Anthony would actually think Joey would lend a sympathetic ear is beyond me.

I think it's hard to find a villian on this show because 99 out of 100 boxers are nice guys. In fact, many reporters will tell you that out of all the athletes they interact with, boxers are the most down-to-earth. Ironic, given the nature of the sport, but true. You can go up to a fighter anytime, without hassle, and get an autograph, picture, and a nice conversation w/ no problem at all. (And all for free, I might add.)

Anyhow, it seems like a case where they have to create a villian. Although, Anthony certainly has helped the cause in the meantime...

LAST EDITED ON 04-21-05 AT 04:28 PM (EST)

Stallone doesn't like Ishe as evidenced by some of his comments as the credits roll. That's probably why Ishe is getting a bad edit.

I still haven't had a chance to see the show from last night, but looking at the site, the same anti-Ishe sentiment is still prevalent in the captions: Ishe vs the world; Sergio shuts Ishe up; Ishe still talking trash. I don't like it.

Yeah, it's bizarre.

Tommy and Jackie didn't like Ishe, as the "Sly's summit" clips make clear, and the captions may be reflecting their viewpoint. But, as Ishe says, if what he does is "trash talking," then what do we call what Zab Judah does?

What I really don't like is, as you have pointed out before, the captions do not reflect the video. "Ishe still talking trash," says one caption. The video is three minutes of Ishe being sad, reflective, grateful, humble, thanking everyone from SRL to Sly to Latoya to Las Vegas to his church, and wishing the remaining fighters all the best. Not one word of trash. His talk with Jackie was titled "Ishe vs. The World." Jackie is the one saying that the others don't like him; Ishe just largely sitting there quietly, looking like he would really rather not be having that conversation right before a fight. Obviously I'm biased, but I'm kinda annoyed and upset by the labeling on the site.

The captions on the site are definitely meant to show Ishe unfavorably...and for what reason I don't really know. It just seems like they are trying to make him into a villain when there's really nothing there to back that up at all. Just saying "Ishe talks trash" does not make it so! It is annoying!

Got blog?

Actually, there's another editing point that bothers me. Alfonso said that the coalition called itself the "Italian Clan." It seems to me that there is a real smell of racism here, since the three people left out by that coalition were the remaining black and Latino fighters. And it seems to me that Stallone, the old "Italian Stallion" himself, was partial to the "Italian Clan," blatantly advocating for the contestants to bring back Ahmed and even hiring Joey to be his spokesperson for his "nutrition line" once the show was over.

I also noticed that the key thing in the coalition versus Ishe "kitchen fight" on the Web -- Sergio's contention that someone was feeding the rest of the contestants BS about Ishe, which seemed to fit with what we later saw (and then also see on the Web) Joey doing with Ahmed -- was completely left out of the show.

P.S. In the clip entitled "Joey Schemes to Deceive," we see Peter, Jesse and Alfonso running together late at night after Sergio's fight (while Joey is running with Ahmed, and Lord only knows where Anthony is):

Alfonso says, "I could've beat Ishe tonight too."
Jesse (who says in confessional that he wants to fight Anthony because that will make him "feel good about himself") says, "I could've knocked Ishe out tonight. A slow jab, and then I'd come over with a right hook."
Peter then chimes in with, "I think anyone would've beat him tonight."

So ... who are the trash talkers, Tommy?

VFW -- I agree 100%.

When I viewed yahoo's clips the other day, it was obvious they had chose a negative angle on Ishe and stuck with it. The captions under Smith's available videos make no sense whatsoever. I still hold out hope that we'll gain more access to the "inside stuff" after the show's conclusion.

Ahmed did get into Ishe's head. But that's boxing. Remember Rahman Vs. Lewis, Tyson Vs. Bruno, Hyde Vs. Morris on, Tuba Vs. Make, Tuba Vs. Moorer. That's boxing. The mental aspect of the game, is just as important as the physical.

The editing does portray Ishe in an unfavorable light, though he did apologize for his behavior. Now he seems to back up what he is saying.

I first did not like Ishe, though I must say I like him more and more. He backs up what he says. He does not appear to be a back stabber. He appears to be the type of individual who is "what you see is what you get". I hope he can keep backing up his words. I would like to see him in the finals against Alfonzo

He his a hypocrite but i look at it this way in his weight class he will eventually have to fight hopkins or trinidad i would love to see him get embarrased

Actually Ishe must be a REPUBLICAN. The five rounds is weighted better for novice fighters. I was just disappointed in ishe for being a little byatch. but as for being a hypocrite look at the religious right and the republican party. In god we trust. Please

LAST EDITED ON 04-26-05 AT 12:50 PM (EST)

If you're going to rip the guy at least peice together a sentence that makes sense. You think that being religious means you're a hypocrite?

As for the rest of the thread, I am also somewhat disturbed by the treatment of Ishe. In my opinion he is the best fighter on the show.

The editting of his fight with Sergio is a disgrace. If you watch the fight, fast forward to the end of round 5. You will see that Sergio is starting to collapse as the bell rings, then they cut the tape and he is suddenly in the arms of the corner man. Also, why the heck would you edit out the words "split decision" from the TV version? Its not like its a time crunch.

Second, he talks no trash at all after losing, which he certainly could've considering the controversy surrounding the result. Yet the clip is labeled "still talking trash".

Third, watch the full 6 minute shouting match with Jesse and Manfredo. It is clear that Jessee escalated the whole incident by threatening to "attack" Ishee. Jessee would not even say what Ishee had said nor who told him. Sergio was on Ishe's side confronting Jessee. Basically, Jessee was a total punk but they editted it on TV to just show Ishee all mad from the get go without the context of Jessee's baseless acusations and threats.

Forth, on TV during the fight when Ishe was destroying Sergio in rounds 2 and 3, they decided to play villian-type music. Every time Ishe landed a blow they'd have squealing horns and stuff like that.

In summary, I think the fight with Sergio was closer than it looked and could've gone either way. If Ishe had won I'm sure they would've made Sergio look like the bad guy instead. But I'd rather just leave reality alone so that the fight shown is less of a Micheal Moore type documentary and instead is a true documentary with the context of what happened.

If you watch the extended scene of the major principles (sly, sugar, tommy...) having the post fight talk they make reference to Ishe being a poor loser and that he did some things after the fight that were bad. Seems like MB did Ishe a favor by editing all of this stuff out of the main program. They don't give many details of what exactly Ishe did but this may be why they portrayed him in a bad light. They knew a lot more about Ishe than they showed us during the show and this likely slanted their negative spin on him in the end.

would love to see the fight uncut....

Actually Sly is defending Ishe in that footage. Only the chick thought he was a poor sport.

I too would like to see the fight uncut. This obviously was a very close one that could be called either way. It just feel like the producers were trying to trick us and I don't like it. I'm not sure how anyone can condone labelling videos things like "Ishe still talking trash.." when he has not one negative thing to say about anyone in the entire clip. That's bush league in my opinion.

That's bush league in my opinion.

Mine too. Even Don King wouldn't do that ... though he'd steal your money!

Finally had a chance to talk to Ishe about episode 9 and his fight with Sergio. Finally got some interesing behind-the-scenes tidbits from him. REALLY interesting info: for example, about the "source" of the rumors to which Sergio alluded in the kitchen scene on the website, and the reason for Jackie et al criticizing his post-fight reaction, as well as some sneaky behaviors on the part of the producers prior to the fight. But ... I am sworn to secrecy. At least until May 25th. Sorry for the shameless tease, but I couldn't resist. Tee hee.

One thing though: he, too, was upset with the way they labeled some of his videos on Episode 9, and told the producers so. As a result "Ishe: Still talking trash," has been re-titled to "No way for Sugar Shay." Exctly what that means, and why they couldn't have changed it to something like "Ishe: Humble and Thankful," which would have been an accurate reflection of the clip's content, is beyond me.

Dear VFW:

That tease is inexcusable!

Haha, you're kilin' us here!

All i can say is AMEN!! (lol)

I love it when every one of the GOD in my corner fighters say that it was'nt God's will after they get their butt kicked. Christians like these just ruin it for anyone considering a closer look at Christianity....not that I am or ever was! AMEN

LAST EDITED ON 05-04-05 AT 05:51 PM (EST)

During the Sergio/Ishe fight, it looked like Sly and Sugar were rooting for Ishe. And, Tommy went to Ishe's corner when it looked like he was losing. I agree with alot of your comments, but i don't think there's a big conspiracy towards Ishe here.