We've discussed the effect of editing with the fights on The Contender in other threads. To emphasize that, here are the results of the three fights shown on TV so far, according to the judges' scorecards. Note that we've actually only had ONE close fight (the first one) -- and Peter would've needed a knockdown in the last round to get a draw.Oh, the fights take place every 3 days, and scoring is on a "10-point must" system (meaning that the winner of the round gets 10 points):
Fight 1: 8-18-04, Alfonso Gomez Jr. v. Peter Manfredo Jr.
Scores
Judge 1: 48-47 (in other words, 3 rounds for Alfonso, 2 for Peter -- the winner of the last round won the fight)
Judge 2: 49-46 (4-1 Alfonso; Peter would've needed to win the last round by "10-8" on this card to tie on this card; that normally requires a knockdown)
Judge 3: 50-45 (5-0 Alfonso. Huh?)Fight 2: 8-21-04, Jesse Brinkley v. Jonathan Reid
Scores
Judge 1: 50-45 (5-0 Jesse)
Judge 2: 50-45 (ditto)
Judge 3: 49-46 (4-1 Jesse)Fight 3: 8-24-04, Ishe Smith v. Ahmed Kaddour
Scores
Judge 1: 50-45 (5-0 Ishe)
Judge 2: 50-45 (ditto)
Judge 3: 49-46 (4-1 Ishe)Ishe and Jesse just had to stay on their feet in Round 5 and they won in dominating fashion.
I'll post these as the series goes on, so that we can keep track of how much we're being misled....
Thanks Ayak, that will be useful information down the road when the West battles the West in the final 8.
I talked to Ishe after the show last night, and he said he thought Ahmed probably took one round. Like all fighters (but seemingly legitimately in this case) he felt he won pretty easily, and that his body shots were taking it out of Ahmed. (Tommy Gallagher said much the same on the official site).
Ishe said the atmosphere in the warehouse for that fight was tremendously electric, it being the first "grudge" match of the series. Apparently, Mark Burnett came to see him (and presumably Ahmed) in the dressing room before the fight, and said that he really appreciated, and was impressed by, the fact that they were taking this dangerous fight so early.One other snippet he told me that I thought was pretty funny. Apparently, after every fight, Sly, Ray, and the celebs in the audience all retired to Sly's office for an after-party. The fighters found themselves looking longingly over in the direction of the office, just yards away, and wishing they could join in, and feeling like monkeys in a zoo as the party-goers looked out at the office windows at them.
The fighters found themselves looking longingly over in the direction of the office, just yards away, and wishing they could join in, and feeling like monkeys in a zoo as the party-goers looked out at the office windows at them.That's just wrong. You would think they would've at least let the winner in the office for the after-party!
... they could've worn their new suits.
I wonder if Tony Danza was invited to join the celebrities in Stalone's office. I can visualize James Cann and Chuck Norris slapping Danza around, and taunting him with "Who's the Boss?" chants. (yea, I know Danza used to Box, don't ruin my dream).
I kinda assumed that they couldn't join in simply because the whole point was for them to stay in fighting shape all the way through. But you'd think Sly and the crowd would at least have the consideration to have the party in a bar down the street or something ...
Thank you for that humorous tid bit of infoI watched the fight again and I must say I was very impressed this time around. LOL Funny how I can get a new perspective on the same fight I seen the night before. I guess it was me that was tense before the fight. LOL I was nervous
I can just image how nervous the other two fighters were. I agree. Ahmed won the first round. Ishe did a tremendous job later in taking out the body of Ahmed. Had the fight went 12 I believe Ishe would of took out the head too
Say hello to Ishe for me/us. He is not my favorite but I still have some love for him. He definately showed tremendous courage and the bottom line is: West Coast at this time is still 3-0 and Ahmed is gone. Alah Akbar! LOLAhmed did say he want's a rematch. I hope The Contender has a second Season. Man that would be so freakin awesome. Ask Ishe if he would step in the ring with Ahmed again? And ask Ishe if there was anything we missed in edeting as far as Ahmed being rude to his corner and or the public. I know there had to be more that we did not get to see.
It is me again. After I made my last post I noticed that Ishe is posting here as he made a reply to one of my comments. Did you invite him? BTW your boy seems mad at me. lol
I replied to him already. I hope all is good if not, oh well.
As allways keep us informed on what you find out.Peace said the geese.
It's all good. He was just cruising through, kinda misread your post and thought you were calling him out. You know what fighters are like.
LAST EDITED ON 03-28-05 AT 11:00 AM (EST)Fight 4: 8-27-04, Sergio Mora v. Najai Turpin
Scores
Judge 1: 49-46 (4-1 Sergio)
Judge 2: 49-46
Judge 3: 49-46Fight 5: 8-30-04, Peter Manfredo Jr. v. Miguel Espino
Scores
Judge 1: 48-47 (3-2 Peter)
Judge 2: 48-47
Judge 3: 48-47For fight 6, though, it doesn't look like we're going to get to see the scorecards, because it looks as if the fight will be stopped on a TKO.
Fight 6: 9-2-04, Anthony Bonsante v. Brent Cooper
TKO, 0:38 of round 3Six first-round fights down; two to go.
LAST EDITED ON 04-22-05 AT 01:24 AM (EST)Clearly, I shouldn't go on vacation. Too many duplicate threads start up.
Bout 7: 9-5-04, Juan de la Rosa v. Tarick Salmaci
Judge 1: 50-45 (Juan wins all rounds)
Judge 2: 50-45 (ditto)
Judge 3: 49-46 (Juan 4, Tarick 1)Bout 8: 9-7-04 (NOTE - 2 DAYS), Joey Gilbert v. Jimmy Lange
Judge 1: 49-46 (Joey 4-1)
Judge 2: 48-47 (Joey 3-2)
Judge 3: 48-47 (ditto)First round over, and every bout has been a unanimous decision except for Anthony's TKO. Time for that to change....
I'm going to post this based on VFW's info; I'll change it if it's wrong when the info comes out from the California Athletic Commission:Fight 9: 9-10-04, Sergio Mora v. Ishe Smith
Scores
Judge 1: 50-45 (5-0 Sergio)
Judge 2: 49-46 (4-1 Sergio)
Judge 3: 46-49 (4-1 Ishe)Talk about judges who didn't see the same fight! I wonder who the judges were...
Thanks AyaK! I said the samething lastnight. It is so funny that we can watch the same fight but see it totally different.
those numbers do a lot for the credibility of boxing.
I thought they were supposed to announce when there was a split decision...
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This one gang kept wanting me to join because I'm pretty good with a bo staff. ~ Napoleon
Where on earth have YOU been?Yeah, they are supposed to announce the type of decision but all they said last night was 'winner: Sergio Mora' not 'winner by unanimous decision', 'winner by split decision', or 'winner by majority decision'. All the more reason to be suspicious about the results, IMO.
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LAST EDITED ON 04-26-05 AT 11:34 AM (EST)Cappy, you're right, and the ring announcer DID say that it was a split decision. Burnett chose to edit that out of the show.
I posted this in another thread, but I don't want to link to that thread:
On the Web clip, the ring announcer says "the winner by split decision ... Sergio Mora." We don't know whether the announcer said anything else that was edited out, but we clearly hear that. However, in episode 9, we merely hear the ring announcer say, "the winner ... Sergio Mora." In episode 10, we hear the ring announcer say, "the winner by decision ... Sergio Mora."
Thus, Burnett edited out AT LEAST "by split decision" in episode 9 and "split" in episode 10 -- and yet the edits were not detectable without having seen the Web clip. Ah, the wonders of tape editing ... which is why I don't think anyone in his or her right mind could form an opinion about who won the Sergio-Ishe fight based on the edited clips that Burnett shows. NOT ONE of the judges scored the fight as close -- and yet they formed two very different interpretations about the victor.
I missed that in the yahoo clip since it didn't say it was an extended clip...figured there wasn't anything new once I skimmed over it. But what's strange is that on the yahoo site, it says the Ishe v. Sergio fight was a unanimous decision. If that's not fishy, I don't know what is...ISHE VS. ISHE
After five rounds of virtuoso boxing, the judges unanimously declared Sergio Mora the victor over Ishe Smith. (from page 3 of the episode 9 recap).Crazy decisions aren't rare in boxing, but for them to edit it as if it didn't happen just screams of something fishy. Alfonso's site prooves VFW was correct with the wobbling Sergio at the end of round five. Something like that certainly should have been included in the edited version since that was probably the most damaging blow of the entire fight (sounds like it). Fishy, I tell you.
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Hey Mons!I been super busy lately. Haven't had much time to play as I would like. I really like this show but after watching Sunday night's show and the replay last night, I agree with you that seems something is rotten in the state of Denmark.
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This one gang kept wanting me to join because I'm pretty good with a bo staff. ~ Napoleon
Reading Alfonso's account of the fight...he judged it 2-2 going into the final round. He said: "Sergio was landing more punches and was winning the round, until 10 seconds before the bell. Ishe landed a right hook on Sergio’s temple that wobbled him."Even if this was a very hard blow...it is still just one punch and depending how they are judging it would generally not be enough to overcome the quantity of punches that Sergio had landed throughout the round.
I do agree the judges score cards for this fight were definitely funny when compared to the first hand accounts of the fight. But then again most of the rounds seemed very close so that could lead to some natural disparity in the judges scores. Additionally the style of each fighter would lend itself to judges not being on the same page with Sergio basically throwing a lot of punches and Ishe throwing fewer but with more power...would depend on how each judge values quantity vs power. Not sure how anyone could score it unanimous Sergio though as if there was a decisive round it was round 3 to Ishe. In the end I do think the deserving/winning fighter was selected correctly even if the judges scorecards were a little out of whack.
This is the first fight where there is any real question which to me is remarkable. It seems in most regular boxing matches most times the judging is very questionable. Even in this fight I do think they got it right in the end.
This particular fight aside. I think it is kind of goofy that boxing rules require a Judge to pick a winner of every round. Surely there are rounds in most every fight that could best be described as tossups.
That's always been my main gripe about boxing. But I suppose it would be nearly impossible to do it any other way without being far too subjective - the judges wouldn't really have to 'answer' for their decisions if it was just a matter of whomever did more damage or whomever was the better fighter overall. Most of the time it works out that the dominant fighter is the victor (in a decision, anyway), but not always.At least it's not Olympic scoring! *gag*
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Even rounds are permissible, although generally discouraged. Nevada discourages 10-10 rounds strongly. But the WBC judging guide is perfectly fine with them.I have to say, by and large, I find there are very few truly egregious decisions in boxing, at least at the higher levels. Most of the time, I think the judges get it right.
>This particular fight aside. I think
>it is kind of goofy
>that boxing rules require a
>Judge to pick a winner
>of every round. Surely there
>are rounds in most every
>fight that could best be
>described as tossups.
According to the Contender website, 10-10 rounds are supposedly allowed:http://www.nbc.com/nbc/The_Contender/scoring_the_bouts/
In the 2nd paragraph:
"If a judge determines the round to be a tie, both boxers earn ten points."
Even if this was a very hard blow...it is still just one punch and depending how they are judging it would generally not be enough to overcome the quantity of punches that Sergio had landed throughout the round.Right. I wasn't saying that Ishe should have won the round as a result of one good blow at the end of the round (or that he even won the round at all)...I was just saying that the ONE blow of the fight that left one man wobbling was edited out. That tells me the producers are trying to hide something...trying to hide how close the fight was and/or trying to hide the drastically different scorecards (people familiar with boxing would be more forgiving of this - than the average viewer - since we've seen it happen before).
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Here's a short article from today's Las Vegas Review Journal, which talks to Ishe about the fight with Mora, and the way he was portrayed in the show: http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2005/Apr-27-Wed-2005/sports/26385203.html
THanks!!
