Granted Sam's boneheaded decision to drop everything and focus on the razor thin margined Gold torpedoed any chance the guys had. But was it realistic that the guys could have negotiated as good a price on a leg wax as the women? Is it really a demonstration of negotiation skills to dance until you get a discount or bare your hungry tummy? Oh yea, I am sure the guys could have danced and showed some skin for a discount, that would have worked great--at getting arrested.

• RE: W3:Did the men really have a chance?,Thaibeach, 06:25 AM, 01-22-04
  • RE: W3:Did the men really have a chance?,KLicK, 05:07 PM, 01-22-04
• RE: W3:Did the men really have a chance?,Bebo, 07:27 AM, 01-22-04
  • Agree totally,AyaK, 12:21 PM, 01-22-04
  • RE: W3:Did the men really have a chance?,ladro, 01:52 AM, 01-23-04
• RE: W3:Did the men really have a chance?,Rothschild, 08:23 AM, 01-22-04
  • RE: W3:Did the men really have a chance?,Wacko Jacko, 09:45 AM, 01-22-04
    • RE: W3:Did the men really have a chance?,Bebo, 10:06 AM, 01-22-04
    • RE: W3:Did the men really have a chance?,subman, 07:38 PM, 01-28-04
• RE: W3:Did the men really have a chance?,weltek, 10:24 AM, 01-22-04
  • Women had clear advantage,Wacko Jacko, 12:08 PM, 01-22-04
    • RE: Women had clear advantage,weltek, 12:50 PM, 01-22-04
      • RE: Women had clear advantage,Ricky, 05:25 PM, 01-22-04
    • RE: Women had clear advantage,ladro, 02:18 AM, 01-23-04
    • RE: Women had clear advantage,subman, 07:44 PM, 01-28-04
  • RE: W3:Did the men really have a chance?,ladro, 01:05 AM, 01-23-04
• RE: W3:Did the men really have a chance?,ValleyGirl, 12:29 PM, 01-22-04
  • RE: W3:Did the men really have a chance?,N305AS, 12:52 PM, 01-22-04
    • RE: W3:Did the men really have a chance?,Mizz Eve, 01:25 PM, 01-22-04
      • RE: W3:Did the men really have a chance?,ladro, 01:13 AM, 01-23-04
    • RE: W3:Did the men really have a chance?,subman, 07:54 PM, 01-28-04
• RE: W3:Did the men really have a chance?,jackandjill, 01:28 PM, 01-22-04
  • RE: W3:Did the men really have a chance?,subman, 07:56 PM, 01-28-04
• RE: W3:Did the men really have a chance?,Estee, 02:03 PM, 01-22-04
• RE: W3:Did the men really have a chance?,networkinggirl, 03:33 PM, 01-22-04
  • Please, no duplicate posts,Bebo, 05:00 PM, 01-22-04
  • RE: W3:Did the men really have a chance?,PepeLePew13, 05:04 PM, 01-22-04
• RE: W3:Did the men really have a chance?,HyperTyper, 02:15 AM, 01-23-04
  • RE: W3:Did the men really have a chance?,pandorella, 05:06 AM, 01-23-04
  • RE: W3:Did the men really have a chance?,geg6, 09:10 AM, 01-23-04

I have to respectfully disagree. (Of course I agree that Sam is clearly a whacko and a tool. The men should have blown him off (or sent just one guy back uptown to buy the gold piece).) But I do think this week's contest was quite fair.

First - the leg wax. I don't think the women even had to negotiate on the leg wax. That is the standard price, maybe a little on the low side, for leg waxing if you go to a Korean-owned salon in NYC, as the women sensibly did. (I don't know if this is a New York thing, but you can't spit w/o hitting a nail salon in the city, most of which are owned by Korean women. They're cheap, fast and why pay more?!)

The men (2 of whom at least are from the NY area and should know better) went to an obviously pricey spa instead. What did they expect?! They paid more than twice what they needed to.

I think the contest was fair in all other respects. Heidi and Kristi or Katrina (can't keep those two straight) acted like idiots, dancing, etc but - again - that was their stupid decision, and it only got $10 off in the end.

I was most impressed by Amy getting the Big Bertha for such a good price. I would have liked to have seen HOW the women found this source for the golf club...the men clearly didn't have any good sources (and that, to be sexist, is one area where I would have thought they'd have an advantage).

And by the way, was it just me, or did you all think Sam was going to pull a butcher knife after he got fired? I really think he's nuts.

I believe that the men had an advantage on the cigar sale. Isn't Nick (or maybe Bill) in the cigar business? They saved a bundle on that purchase.

The men got what they deserved.

They had 8 hours to get all of those items and left half of their guys back at the suite? While the research idea had merit, it would have better served them to leave just two in the suite - one to check on the computer, one to be on the phone - and send the other 4 out. That way, they could have divided and conquered, like when Sam wanted guys to get gold now.

And the leg wax was foolish. The guys were on the right track when saying they should get one in Chinatown. Show me a spa that negotiates - ha. The reaction when Troy outlined his idea was exactly what I would expect.

I agree with you that Heidi and her crew were embarrassing in their dealings, but the deal that cinched it for the women was the golf club. Amy successfully negotiated a significant discount, while the guys ended up paying retail. That $9 that the women jumped around for gold ended up being irrelevant to final total thanks to the golf club and leg wax deals.

Snarky, smart, S7 Anti-Bootee Champ

Gender was not the determining factor in this competition. The determining factor was that the men failed to negotiate for the high-margin items first, and they ran out of time to do so at the end.

Kwame correctly noted the pointlessness of trying to negotiate on gold when Sam ordered them to try, but Sam didn't listen. Unlike the previous two failures by the men, this failure was totally preventable.

I agree the key to that competition was the golf club. It had a much larger margin for negotiation than any of the other items. Because of Sam, the men had little time left after buying the one lousy ounce of Gold to negotiate the rest of the items. Had Sam managed the Men's time better it is realistic to expect that the men could have gotten similar prices on the golf club and the leg wax. My point (which everyone seems to have missed) was that even if the men had used their time wisely and skillfully negotiated, the men would have lost anyway because of the $9 discount on the Gold the women danced for. I am not suggesting that the men didn't deserve to lose, only that they would have lost no matter what they did.

They could have gotten the leg wax free, if they tried Chelsea.

Another unfair contest slanted in the womens favor. The women once again used the tool of sex to get them better deals. Yes, the men had their faults but the odds for each of the three challenges were in favor of the women before they even started.

The closes thing to a fair challenge was the ad campaign. But the women won that contest by using sex also.

How did Amy use sex to negotiate that big bargain on the Big Bertha?

Snarky, smart, S7 Anti-Bootee Champ

The contests were not biased against either team. In fact, the challenges were each rather simple and straight forward. Moreover, everyone seems to be unfairly giving the women grief for using sex to close the best deal as if this was the only factor in why the women's team won. Actually, the women won because they all posses the heriditary shopping gene passed down from one generation of women to the next. Skill in knowing where to buy the products in the city at the lowest price is what won this contest for the women. Afterall, the men went to a store that didn't even sell golf clubs. How can the women be blamed for the stupidity of this move? Also, sex appeal had nothing to do with the research and purchase of the golf club which was the major factor in the women's victory. The men complicated the scavenger hunt and in light of their smaller team, made a critical error in not putting everyone on the street. In contrast, the women divided into two teams, ostensibly with each team member doing research on one item in advance. I find it hard to belive that one can not get on the internet and locate all of those items in about 30 minutes. The women are just smarter than the men and despite their bickering, seem better at focusing once the game is on.

While I thought the lemonade task definitely was easier for the women, this one was up for grabs. The men didn't think creatively in negotiation. They didn't offer anything in return. Maybe the leg wax place needed some quick cleaning or repair work done. They could've bartered. And they didn't ask locals where to buy stuff. They relied on a phone book and the internet.

You can say what you want on the Golfclub, but do you think if the guys approached that same guy and tried to negotiate a deal that good for the golf club they would've gotten it? There is no way in heck that they would've gotten the same deal.

Even the girls said the guys had more experience negotiating then the women. If that is so why did they lose? Yes, the game plan had something to do with it but the women had the advantage in the battle of the sexes even though the men had more experience negotiating.

While the men had more experience negotiating, that doesn't mean they are GOOD at it. I guarantee any of Trumps male cronies could've beat the women. It came down to skill over experience on this one. The women knew how to find the weakness in the seller and go in for the "soft sell". The men asked and tried the "hard sell" negotiating tactic and it failed them.

I agree. The girls are just better negotiators than the men. I don't think sex appeal was the determining factor for the girls getting a better deal on practically every item. So far the girls are just better at business. I think the men will be better without Sam though.

at least you agree with me. I have to admit, I missed the Golf club negotiation (I think they may have cut it out where I live for an extra commercial), so I can't comment directly on Amy's negotiation. But I think I understand your general point: On lower priced items, in a time sensitive situations, an attractive woman is going to be at an advantage when negotiating with a man. Even though it is never metioned, the man is consious that if he bends a little on price to make the deal, he might get a phone number (or something comparable).

I disagree. We'll never know how well the men would have done in an actual negotiation on the price of the golf cluub for two reasons. First,as they did with nearly every purchase, they went to an upscale store that felt no need to mark down their merchandise. Second, they went to a store that didn't even sell the product they wanted to buy. The only reason there was not a true comparision in negotiations between the men and the women on this item is that the men didn't show up.

I didn't get my copy of the Apprentice rules in the mail yet, but I'd bet bartering with labor (or anything else other than cash) would have been against the rules for this episode. It's not to much of a stretch to say that the women bartered their bodies to get the discount on the Gold. But, it looked good on TV, so the judges igonored it.

The girls won, fair and square. They used all the skills and knowledge at their command and won(period). GIRLS RULE!
Valley Girl
"Hey Sam, thanks again for all your help (signed. The Girls)....."

I still say the men have an obvious solution that they're not exploiting:

In any deal, negotiate with well-dressed men only..and say, "Y'know, we're competing against a team of women..and if we win, one of those uppity, know-it-all women goes home instead of us."

I can GUARANTEE that most men would bend over backwards to help their fellow guys beat the women's team.

I'm quite sure that it's in the "rules" that the contestants cannot tell anyone that they are in a competition. Don't you think that if they could disclose that info, everyone would have been doing it since day one?

ditto

You're right. However, the store first has to have the product (golf club) the men want to buy and then the salesman must have the discretion or authority to discount the price from list. The men chose the wrong stores to buy from. Despite being a men vs. women competition, no salesman is going to risk his job by breaking the store's policy on sales discounts. I think the men should have made better use of the cameras following them and put together a 15-30 second commerical spot for free merchandise such as the golf club and the leg wax. The men need to work smarter in order to offset the obvious sex appeal and shenanigans of the women.

The men had a great chance of winning this contest. What good did it do the team to have Sam back at Headquarters talking on the GD phone? Why didn't he head to Squid town late in the day to buy stinky fish at a reduced rate?

None. That's why Sam is gone? Where have U been?

I think the women just took the men out on this one, fair and square -- with one exception: the performance displayed over the gold bar, which had me cringing in my seat and calculating just how much I would have given to get Protege' to go away. (Answer: the cost of one phone call to the NYPD. 'Get these nuts out of my store!')

One team was just more focused than the other, and did a better job of running down the right prices. And, to be fair, one team was handicapped with having Sam as a leader, which is happily something they'll never have to deal with again.

Still, I'd love to see one of the competitions involve no personal face-to-face contact whatsoever: phone calls, Emails, but no meetings: it would level the field somewhat.

(Anyone calculating the odds on any Protege' member attempting -- how to put this -- something other than standard phone protocol may be on the right track. Depressing, isn't it?)

I have to politely disagree with the points made about Omarosa. Now, believe me, I do feel she's difficult. She is not pleasant...but then again, neither is the blonde woman that Trump has working for him on that show. But what everyone seems to overlook is that Omarosa never "loses it" the way Ereka and Katrina have. Sorry, but when it comes to running a husiness, I will always choose the one who can remain calm in times of conflict over someone volatile. Katarina and Ereka seem unstable. Omaarosa knows EXACTLY how to undermine them. (Which, BTW, a tactic I do not agree with.) She does not feed into the "drama" but rather side steps it. It drives the other, more insecure women, crazy. For the most part, all of the women (save for Amy, Omarosa, Jessie) emotionalize everything. It will be what ultimately gets them "fired." Heidi...well...sorry but she's just plain unnattractive and knows it, which is why she's constantly using her boobs as negotiating tools. Most likely she has had to survive on "shaking what her mama gave her" when it came to men. It just really amazes me how women will use the same tactics in business that they do in sex.Kristi is another woman more comfortable getting by on her looks than her smarts. I wasn't surprised at all to hear she did soft core porn.

Troy is a bumpkin. He continues to use that accent as a way of wooing people...much like the women with their jiggle n' giggle act. The accent is used as a means to come across as "simple" which translates as "not a threat." Just plain tired, in my opinion. You're going to work in NYC, baby cakes...assimilate.

Bill is insubordinate...plain and simple. He was the one who put Sam in the leadership role, therefore he should have been willing to sit back and take instruction from him. If he didn't respect him, then he shouldn't have made him project manager.
(As my father says "If you can't respect the person, at least respect the position.")

Kwami offered fantastic insight...but AFTER they failed the task. Where was all the number crunching when they forst set out to purchase the items?

Nick, to me, is the only viable male candidate. Amy is also a frontrunner. I really like her. She's just the right mix of confident, smart, strong, ballsy and feminine. The other women seem completely immature. Sorry, but they're window dressing. They're there to serve a dramatic purpose...not a business one.Just my two cents....

Oh yeah...thought Sam was going to go loco last night. He had crazy eyes, didn't he?

Welcome to the forum, and thanks for sharing your insights. Please do not post the identical information on multiple threads in the future, since this is a violation of the community guidelines.

We really do have guidelines here. Believe it or not, the Guidelines make things more fun. Really.

LAST EDITED ON 01-22-04 AT 05:04 PM (EST)

NetworkingGirl... welcome to SurvivorBlows! Some good points you have made, but, you repeated the exact same message in at least 3 different threads? There's no reason at all to do that.

Edited to say... Doh! You beat me to it, Bebo.

Seems like they should have, but with Sam at the helm - no. Glad he's gone. What a loon.

At least the guys were straight shooters and used old fashioned negotiating. They may not have won, but the women's strategy is getting real old, real fast. If they started their own business with "sex will always sell" it wouldn't take long for them to generate a reputation for themselves, and it wouldn't be long for them to lose all credibility in the very business community they are trying to solicit.

I'm hoping the guys will do better now that Sam is gone. Wonder why DT thinks he's a genius?

probably because there's a fine line between genius and insanity.I don't think Sam is insane, but he sure seems definitely "out there."

i agree with you about the women,they are pouring on the drama,hysterics and manipulating their outcomes with sex appeal because they are young and attractive.How much corporate skill are they actually utilizing? i respect the efforts of the men more so far because they are using their brains more than their appeal.Let's see what they can achieve without Sam and see if the women don't self-destruct with all their bickering. The men do appear to be a more cohesive unit.

As a woman, I have to say that I am embarrassed to agree with you. Most of these women are behaving totally inappropriately, whether using sex to get what they want or in their behavior with each other. The only ones I have any respect for at this point are Amy and Jessie. I wouldn't hire any of the rest of these DAWs under any circumstances. And now that Sam is gone, I think that the men are going to do much better simply because they have probably lost all of their weakest links and are working together and bonding in a very positive way.