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Original Message
"Soldiers Say pull-out would be devastating"

Posted by PagongRatEater on 11-07-06 at 09:31 AM
Looks like the guys who are there every day, who the wthdraw now crowd are trying to protect, want to finish what they started.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/05/AR2006110500770.html

Of course, they are just a bunch of idiots who got stuck in Iraq.


"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - President J. Adams


Table of contents

Messages in this discussion
"RE: Soldiers Say pull-out would be devastating"
Posted by zipperhead on 11-07-06 at 09:55 AM
Soldiers and officers had difficulty conveying what victory in Iraq would look like or exactly how to achieve it.

There is a reason why field generals do not make the decisions regarding "victory", terms of surrender, treatment of the local government, etc. If you are in the thick of it, your perspective is going to be extremely distorted.

Furthermore, this is only the testimony of a few who were no doubt hand-picked to give interviews for the story. There are thousands of soldiers over there. Can someone provide any kind of survey results for a broad spectrum of the soldiers by a reliable polling firm? Otherwise, I will consider this to be more propoganda to be taken with a hefty dose of salt.


"RE: Soldiers Say pull-out would be devastating"
Posted by dabo on 11-07-06 at 10:00 AM
I don't know if there is such a survey. Last week on one of the news channels I saw a report about soldiers who had been in Iraq petitioning the government to get us out of Iraq. I don't have a link to the story, unfortunately.

"RE: Soldiers Say pull-out would be devastating"
Posted by PagongRatEater on 11-07-06 at 10:06 AM
Of course, the Washington Post is a well known schill for the war and for the right wing.


"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - President J. Adams


"RE: Soldiers Say pull-out would be devastating"
Posted by geg6 on 11-07-06 at 10:18 AM
Keep flogging that tired old dog, PRE.

WaPo, along with the NYTimes, have not been the leftwing mouthpieces you guys love to claim they are for years, if they ever have been. There is no difference between their reporting and that of the WSJ or FOXNews for the entirety of this adminstration. They have been, and still are, whores and shills for the entire neocon agenda. Whether that is from fear, intimidation, slavish devotion to power, or just inept whorishness, it is a sure thing that neither one of those publications have been in any, way, shape, or form opposing this president and his policies in any serious way.

This kind of article, in fact, just proves my point. What does it really tell you? It's not like its any kind of scientific polling or anything. It's a few soldiers' opinions. I could round up some soldiers and come up with an article saying just the opposite by picking and choosing the ones who make the point supporting my conclusion. It means nothing other than another article in support of the contention that somehow Dems don't support the troops and want us to lose in every way possible. Or, put more simply, vote for the Dems and you vote for treason.

I'm sick of this kind of innuendo and I'm going to call it out every.single.time.I.see.it.from.now.on.


Democrats make better lovers. Whoever heard of a good piece of elephant?


"RE: Soldiers Say pull-out would be devastating"
Posted by Lasann on 11-07-06 at 10:58 AM
*smooch*

Thank you. You do it so much better than I can!


It a Tribe original!!!


"RE: Soldiers Say pull-out would be devastating"
Posted by PagongRatEater on 11-07-06 at 11:11 AM
The evidence is overwhelming that the MSM is a playground of the Left. Whether you look at the Pew Survey that 70% of journals and 80%+ of editorial boards are self-described liberals, or just the consistent bias in reporting it is obvious that the media is not to be trusted by the Right. After all, where to you think the Limbaughs and Hannitys came from - if there were a huge void in the national press they would not have been able to step in and fill it.

I don't want to argue this point, mostly because I don't think I can convince you and I think it is pretty self-evident. But I will provide a link on the reporting just from this election cycle that reconfirms once again the extreme liberal bias in the media.


http://www.newsroom.ucla.edu/page.asp?RelNum=6664

http://www.investors.com/editorial/editorialcontent.asp?secid=1501&status=article&id=246150694225203

I could fill this page with links of studies by slews of organizations. I would like to see you produce a few to support the case that you are making.



"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - President J. Adams


"RE: Soldiers Say pull-out would be devastating"
Posted by HistoryDetective on 11-07-06 at 11:14 AM
I think that you make the same mistake re: journalists identifying as liberals and thus presenting an intentionally biased view as you do re: academics identifying as liberals and thus teaching an intentionally biased view. I think that people in both professions manage to separate their personal views from the narratives they present for public consumption.

*shrug*


"RE: Soldiers Say pull-out would be devastating"
Posted by PagongRatEater on 11-07-06 at 11:22 AM
In theory that is ideal, in practice it is almost impossible to seperate your world view from the facts that you present. As notated above, sure 87% of journalists voted Democratic. Take that and put it aside and look at the UCLA study on the actual reporting and the liberal bias that exists there. You can't tell me that there isn't a relationship between the Pew Study's findings on the liberal leanings of reporters and the liberal bias in the reporting.

The reporters get to choose which stories to cover and how to cover it. Just in having that editorial control they get to decide what we see and how we see it.


"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - President J. Adams


"RE: Soldiers Say pull-out would be devastating"
Posted by Ante Bellum on 11-07-06 at 11:37 AM
It's really amusing to me that only strongly right-leaning groups find a liberal bias in the media. The other side of that is that Leftist groups find a conservative bias in the media. It's sooooooo funny.


Handcrafted by RollDdice


"Speaking as a Librul"
Posted by dabo on 11-07-06 at 11:50 AM
I think it would be nice if we had a genuinely Librul media in this country somewhere. For a change.

"RE: Speaking as a Librul"
Posted by Sagebrush Dan on 11-07-06 at 05:43 PM
Do you get Air America? Great stuff.


Yup, it's a Tribe
You cannot do a kindness too soon, for you never know how soon it will be too late.
-Ralph Waldo Emerson


"RE: Soldiers Say pull-out would be devastating"
Posted by zipperhead on 11-07-06 at 12:10 PM
The reporters get to choose which stories to cover and how to cover it. Just in having that editorial control they get to decide what we see and how we see it.

You're shooting yourself in the foot here. By your own admission, reporters can pretty much trump up whatever story they want. This must, then, include the story you cite at the beginning of this thread. This piece you want us to read does not hold up to the same scientific standards of objectivity that you want other posters to provide in their support of an unbiased media.


"RE: Soldiers Say pull-out would be devastating"
Posted by zipperhead on 11-07-06 at 11:27 AM
If you want to argue that the liberal media can't be trusted because they are so biased, can't the exact same thing be said about the conservative media?

"RE: Soldiers Say pull-out would be devastating"
Posted by Ante Bellum on 11-07-06 at 11:35 AM
Here's one:

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=2447

But saying that Hannity and his ilk sprang into being to fill a void of "centrist" journalists is so ludicrous as to defy comprehension, much less belief.


Handcrafted by RollDdice


"RE: Soldiers Say pull-out would be devastating"
Posted by PagongRatEater on 11-07-06 at 11:43 AM
You do realize that this study is actually a media self-assessment of how they are doing, right? There is no actual analysis of reporting and no independent review of whether their self-statements are true.

Furthermore, this is a push poll on issues put out by a progressive think tank with liberal views on these issues. Not at all on par with UCLA or Pew. They are proceeding from an assumption (the media is centrist) and then gathering data to support that assumption. Anyone would tell you that is bad methodology.

Anything a little more substantive? Or a little less biased resource?


"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - President J. Adams


"RE: Soldiers Say pull-out would be devastating"
Posted by Ante Bellum on 11-07-06 at 11:55 AM
You do realize that this study is actually a media self-assessment of how they are doing, right?
Anything a little more substantive? Or a little less biased resource?

Picking fights early today I see...


Handcrafted by RollDdice


"RE: Soldiers Say pull-out would be devastating"
Posted by PagongRatEater on 11-07-06 at 11:57 AM
Certainly not trying to pick a fight. Just asking for a fair source or scientific/statistical data to back the claim being made.


"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - President J. Adams


"RE: Soldiers Say pull-out would be devastating"
Posted by HobbsofMI on 11-07-06 at 12:05 PM
Is there one fair source or scientific/statistical data place out there any more?

I don't think so....I think everyone and everything has an agenda....the cynic in me I guess.



Save the Cheerleader Save the World
sig by Syren and bouncy by IceCat


"RE: Soldiers Say pull-out would be devastating"
Posted by geg6 on 11-07-06 at 11:42 AM
http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=2447

http://mediamatters.org/items/200505110005

There ya go. And the model that Groseclose and Milyo used to conduct their research has more than a few academics who criticise it.

And the obvious bias of an editorial in Investor.com I won't even comment on. Let's stick to at least a surface resemblance to objectivity based on some sort of scientific method, no matter how flawed.


Democrats make better lovers. Whoever heard of a good piece of elephant?


"RE: Soldiers Say pull-out would be devastating"
Posted by PagongRatEater on 11-07-06 at 11:47 AM
Both of your sources are partisan hit pieces. I've addressed the 'fair' link above, but the blog link above is just argument without statistical fact. Objectivity, as you mentioned above, is does not even have a passing association with the apologist media matters whose only job seems to be rationalizing, covering up or excusing the mountains of evidence for media bias.

Investor.com uses multiple sources from unbiases (and some biased) sources to make an entire soup-to-nuts case.


"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - President J. Adams


"RE: Soldiers Say pull-out would be devastating"
Posted by Ante Bellum on 11-07-06 at 11:52 AM
I'm just waiting for the pictures of dead babies in KBR relocation camps....... followed by "liberal nutjobs using photoshop. look at the shadows!"


Handcrafted by RollDdice


"RE: Soldiers Say pull-out would be devastating"
Posted by RudyRules on 11-07-06 at 04:59 PM
WaPo, along with the NYTimes, have not been the leftwing mouthpieces you guys love to claim they are for years, if they ever have been. There is no difference between their reporting and that of the WSJ or FOXNews for the entirety of this adminstration. They have been, and still are, whores and shills for the entire neocon agenda.

*boggle*

Have a lime helmet.


"A man's soul can be judged by the way he treats his dog."
- Charles Doran
Rudy's Place


"RE: Soldiers Say pull-out would be devastating"
Posted by zipperhead on 11-07-06 at 10:52 AM
I don't know about you, but I have been interviewed before and I have helped set up interviews. I can tell you with absolute certainty that if a reporter is told to write a story about soldiers who think we should stay in Iraq, then that is who they are going to interview.

You know what's ironic? If the reporter had tried to do the "fair and balanced" thing with his or her reporting by including interviews from soldiers who want us out of Iraq, then conservatives would have jumped on it and said, "See - those liberals in the media just can't present the unbiased truth! They have to turn everything negative!"


"RE: Soldiers Say pull-out would be devastating"
Posted by HobbsofMI on 11-07-06 at 10:56 AM
Or they just ignore the other side or bad news....

http://community.realitytvworld.com/boards/DCForumID6/26508.shtml


Save the Cheerleader Save the World
sig by Syren and bouncy by IceCat


"here is a poll of US soldiers"
Posted by HobbsofMI on 11-07-06 at 11:01 AM
U.S. Troops in Iraq: 72% Say End War in 2006

Now you've heard the rest of the story.


Save the Cheerleader Save the World
sig by Syren and bouncy by IceCat


"RE: here is a poll of US soldiers"
Posted by Sagebrush Dan on 11-07-06 at 11:28 AM
Thanks for that one.


Yup, it's a Tribe
You cannot do a kindness too soon, for you never know how soon it will be too late.
-Ralph Waldo Emerson


"RE: here is a poll of US soldiers"
Posted by cahaya on 11-07-06 at 01:03 PM
Good find, Hobbes. It's interesting how different the Marines and National Guard reserves felt about it. I imagine most National Guard reservists didn't expect to actually get deployed out of the country when they joined.

Also interesting is how they view the American public. An excerpt:

The troops have drawn different conclusions about fellow citizens back home. Asked why they think some Americans favor rapid U.S. troop withdrawal from Iraq, 37% of troops serving there said those Americans are unpatriotic, while 20% believe people back home don’t believe a continued occupation will work. Another 16% said they believe those favoring a quick withdrawal do so because they oppose the use of the military in a pre-emptive war, while 15% said they do not believe those Americans understand the need for the U.S. troops in Iraq.

Wanting them back home out of harm's way in a failed and ill-conceived mission is unpatriotic? Wow.


A colorful multicultural creation by tribephyl.


"That's interesting ..."
Posted by HistoryDetective on 11-07-06 at 11:15 AM
The last soldier I was with told me not to pull out either. Who am I to argue with the troops?

"RE: That's interesting ..."
Posted by zipperhead on 11-07-06 at 11:21 AM
So, um...was it...like...uh..."mission accomplished"?

"RE: That's interesting ..."
Posted by ginger on 11-07-06 at 11:22 AM
You are a bad bad boy.

And the belle of the canteen, I suspect.


"RE: That's interesting ..."
Posted by HobbsofMI on 11-07-06 at 11:28 AM
Was his name Ted and he was a soldier of God?


Save the Cheerleader Save the World
sig by Syren and bouncy by IceCat


"RE: That's interesting ..."
Posted by Tahj on 11-07-06 at 11:32 AM
Sounds like a well-drilled soldier.


Tribe rocked my sig!


"Question for PRE"
Posted by AugustGirl on 11-07-06 at 12:29 PM
And how many soldiers do you, PRE, know personally? Come face to face with every day? Speak to? How many military men and women are in your family, serving today?

It's all well and good to post links to newpaper articles, blogs, commentaries, etc, etc, but really, when was the last time YOU spoke to anyone who has served, is serving, or will serve in Iraq?

My 21 year old nephew is getting ready to deploy to Iraq for the THIRD TIME in two years. His first deployment was exactly two years ago. He was ready to go, happy to go, willing to serve.

His second deployment last fall wasn't really met with that much enthusiasm. He understood he has a committment to serve his country and went because it's his duty. He'd been there, done that, and just wanted to get back home. Thank God he came back in one piece. Not too sure about his psyche, though.

Now, he is getting ready to go back the week of Thanksgiving. He's done. He doesn't want to go back. He knows what is waiting for him. He knows the effort is lost, he knows this is a FUBAR, a quagmire beyond what Vietnam ever was or could have been. I pray to God every day he makes it back alive, and he hasn't even left yet. Many of his buddies didn't come home the last time.

He just wants to make it to May so he can get out, come home, and enroll in college.

I hate this war. I despise the people who got us into it.

And by the way, I work for the Dept of the Army. I live in an Army town. I am surrounded by soldiers, soldiers' families, retired military, and the soldiers' civilian support personnel like myself. I am not alone in my thoughts. Trust me on this. I am not the lone liberal in my community spouting off the liberal media's jargon just because we hate Bush and Rumsfeld. These people know what I know --this war is a sham. We need to get our people out of there. Now. NOW.


And really, IMHO, bringing up Kerry's botched joke in this context doesn't really do anything but make you look like a jerk. Sorry if that offends you, but your post offended me.


"RE: Question for PRE"
Posted by HobbsofMI on 11-07-06 at 12:35 PM
I think you maybe right: http://community.realitytvworld.com/boards/DCForumID6/26524.shtml#8

As you notice no one from the other side decided to respond to it.....wonder why?


Save the Cheerleader Save the World
sig by Syren and bouncy by IceCat


"RE: Question for PRE"
Posted by brvnkrz on 11-07-06 at 12:38 PM
I'm with you, Augie. The two people who I know personally who have been there, both have said that they were unwanted there. That they were spit on and cussed at by the Iraqi's who they had contact with.


Arkie Rocks!!!


"RE: Question for PRE"
Posted by PagongRatEater on 11-07-06 at 12:39 PM
I do know several people who have been over there and frankly they are pretty reluctant to talk about it. Most of the people I know look at it as a job to do and reserve judgement - at least vocally.

I won't argue with your experience or the people who you know. You can know that I pray for them. I honor what they do and I believe that they are great Americans regardless of their position on this war.


Sorry if you were offended. I was offended by Kerry's statement that stupid people got stuck in Iraq.


"RE: Question for PRE"
Posted by ARnutz on 11-07-06 at 12:55 PM
I just wanted to pop in here to say... I *heart* Augie!



*smooch*


"RE: Question for PRE"
Posted by zipperhead on 11-07-06 at 01:00 PM
Oh my. I never noticed this before, but you have such a nice, round...

DAW count.


"RE: Question for PRE"
Posted by ARnutz on 11-07-06 at 01:10 PM
Not anymore.

Now that I've posted this, that is.


"RE: Question for PRE"
Posted by cahaya on 11-07-06 at 01:26 PM
I think ZH was looking at something else besides your DAW count when he said 'round'.

(Like your lips?) *smooch*


A colorful multicultural creation by tribephyl.

You have a well-rounded personality.


"RE: Question for PRE"
Posted by ARnutz on 11-07-06 at 01:35 PM
...or my big, round butt eyes!

*smooch*


"RE: Question for PRE"
Posted by Prof_ Wagstaff on 11-07-06 at 02:32 PM
Ahhh, I love big, round...errr...eyes.



Tribephylanthropy!
A man is only as old as the woman he feels.--- G. Marx


"RE: Question for PRE"
Posted by ARnutz on 11-07-06 at 02:36 PM
Hee!

I like big butts eyes and I can not lie!
You other brothers can't deny...


"RE: Question for PRE"
Posted by geg6 on 11-07-06 at 02:23 PM
You said what I wanted to say, Augie. I didn't mainly because I figured I would be smacked down by someone saying that my contacts with veterans in my role as coordinator of VA educational benefits here are not objective or scientifically valid.

But by trying to pit my evidence (admittedly, they can be disputed) against PRE's evidence of media bias (just as disputed, but not admittedly), I ended up with the same result.

So I'll just go with what I know from people I am in contact with every single day. I deal with active duty veterans from all the services; reserves from the Marines, Army, and Air Force; and PA National Guard. I am the staff person here on campus with whom they probably have the most contact, mainly because I am their designated contact/liason. They know how much I respect them and that feeling goes both ways. And I never discuss my views with them. You could talk to any single of them and ask them my political orientation and I can guarantee that not one of them could tell you how I feel about the war or show you any instance in which I revealed my political leanings to them, other than how I feel about their concerns about veterans programs and how they adminstered by the VA.

The Reserves and National Guard are pretty outspoken in their criticisms of this war and this administration. No one even has to prompt them. They will happily tell you that this war is the most dispiriting thing they have ever been through. Some of these guys are long-time reservists who have seen a lot and many of whom were once active duty during Gulf War I and on duty in the Balkans. Some of them have been in Iraw two and three tours, interrupting their family lives, devastating their family finances, and missing their children's milestones and births. So we're not talking about people who have never seen action before or who haven't seen how screwed up things can get in the heat of battle.

Our veterans of active duty are less outspoken. They tend to still often have that military mindset of being a part of a company or platoon. Our highest ranked vet on campus (also the oldest of the bunch) seems to be their spokesperson. He's the one that gives them advice on other vet's benefits and who comes to me to voice any common concerns. In his very quietly authoritative way, he has made known (in the most discreet way possible) how much of a FUBAR this mission is in his eyes.

I have a soft spot for all these guys (and they are mostly guys). They work hard. They are grateful for the benefits they receive for education. They are respectful. They are dedicated students. They are good role models on campus. I try to help them in every possible way because of my admiration for them. So, the implication that is always made that, as a Democrat who wants a change in the Iraq policy, I somehow don't support the troops and might even be betraying them is so much garbage. I spend more time with the troops and do more to help them out than most people I know. I don't want glory for it, but I refuse to accept the labels people like to slap on me. I daresay the troops would say the same.


Democrats make better lovers. Whoever heard of a good piece of elephant?


"RE: Question for PRE"
Posted by dabo on 11-07-06 at 02:28 PM
The military code of conduct discourages members of the military from going public with their political opinions. Not that they do not have legitimate political venues, they do, but they have to walk the tightrope should they employ their options.

"RE: Question for PRE"
Posted by geg6 on 11-07-06 at 02:41 PM
Well, except for the citizen soldiers of the reserves and the Guard (who see themselves as citizens first and soldiers second. Just ask them, they'll tell you.), the vets of active duty, who are the least likely to spout their views on the war unprompted are no longer constrained by the Military Code of Conduct. Mainly because they have been discharged. So, no tightrope for them. Maybe just habit.


Democrats make better lovers. Whoever heard of a good piece of elephant?


"RE: Question for PRE"
Posted by dabo on 11-07-06 at 02:51 PM
One of the guys I work with is active National Guard (and I do know some others who are active in the military). He has been deployed twice in the past several years and is so disgusted with how things have been going that he has no intention of re-upping when his term is up. It's a shame, he had intended to remain in the Guard as long as he could, he has no problem serving his country; but he's so thorougly disgusted with how things are going and no longer wants to be abused for his love of his country.

"RE: Question for PRE"
Posted by geg6 on 11-07-06 at 03:00 PM
That's pretty much the same attitude the guys in the Guard and Reserves have here.

They're disgusted.


Democrats make better lovers. Whoever heard of a good piece of elephant?


"RE: Question for PRE"
Posted by Lasann on 11-07-06 at 04:03 PM
A disable vet, in a wheel chair, came out for the dems in a TV ad in Ohio. He called Debra Pryce (pub) some names too.


It a Tribe original!!!



"RE: Soldiers Say pull-out would be devastating"
Posted by miamicatt on 11-07-06 at 05:10 PM
I'll keep that in mind as I wait to find out if my 39-year-old friend who just had gall bladder surgery will be going back to Iraq. He served in the first Iraq conflict and in Bosnia and thought he was all done.

Guess not. He just caught called back up and is having meetings with Army officials over his recent medical problems.


I'm not getting much comfort from that thought.