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Original Message
"This is odd to me..."
Posted by bondt007 on 11-02-05 at 02:11 PM

http://www.washingtontimes.com/metro/20051101-104932-4054r.htm

"State Sen. Lisa A. Gladden, a black Baltimore Democrat, said she does not expect her party to pull any punches, including racial jabs at Mr. Steele, in the race to replace retiring Democratic U.S. Sen. Paul S. Sarbanes."

"Such attacks against the first black man to win a statewide election in Maryland include pelting him with Oreo cookies during a campaign appearance, calling him an "Uncle Tom" and depicting him as a black-faced minstrel on a liberal Web log."


I guess if a black man has a different POV, well, you just can't. It's not allowed. But why am I preached to about tolerance? I'm not following the logic.


>Issued by "Q" and RollDdice

Charter Member, April 2001; Club Anti-DAW

Table of contents
Messages in this discussion
"RE: This is odd to me..."
Posted by HistoryDetective on 11-02-05 at 02:20 PM
LAST EDITED ON 11-02-05 AT 02:28 PM (EST)

I'll make you a deal. I won't paint all conservative/Republicans with the same brush if you don't paint all liberal/Democrats with the same brush. I'd like to think that the rational the left are able to decry those instances in the same manner that rational folks on the right objected to calls for the assassination of a South American head of state.

Here's another part of the article that might have merited a mention:

A spokesman for the Maryland Democratic Party denounced the depiction as being "extremely offensive" and having "no place in politics or in any other aspect of public discourse," The Washington Post reported. Democrats have denied any connection to the News Blog.


Sigs by Syren and Seana. Bouncie by IceCat. One and Only WeinerGuy.
journal
"We must scrupulously guard the civil rights and civil liberties of all our citizens, whatever their background. We must remember that any oppression, any injustice, any hatred, is a wedge designed to attack our civilization." --- Franklin Delano Roosevelt, 9 January 1940

"You left out"
Posted by PagongRatEater on 11-02-05 at 02:38 PM
My favorite part of the article:

In 2001, Senate President Thomas V. Mike Miller Jr. called Mr. Steele an "Uncle Tom," when Mr. Steele headed the state Republican Party. Mr. Miller, Prince George's County Democrat, later apologized for the remark.

"That's not racial. If they call him the "N' word, that's racial," Mrs. Marriott said. "Just because he's black, everything bad you say about him isn't racial."

Shameful and ironic to see this on the day that Rosa Parks was buried.


I already know you don't, but I REALLY want to believe you look like the Pringles guy. J Slice

"RE: You left out"
Posted by HistoryDetective on 11-02-05 at 03:08 PM
To avoid any mis-steps during the campaign, maybe you could provide us with an exhaustive list of which literary allusions are and are not acceptable when talking about current issues. We can toss out Harriet Beecher Stowe. I wonder about George Orwell. Are we still allowed to use him? Dickens has interesting stuff to say about class. Is he forbidden? Margaret Atwood? L. Ron Hubbard?


Sigs by Syren and Seana. Bouncie by IceCat. One and Only WeinerGuy.
journal
"We must scrupulously guard the civil rights and civil liberties of all our citizens, whatever their background. We must remember that any oppression, any injustice, any hatred, is a wedge designed to attack our civilization." --- Franklin Delano Roosevelt, 9 January 1940

"RE: This is odd to me..."
Posted by geg6 on 11-02-05 at 03:11 PM
While I finder it even odder that any African American would support the Republican party as it is currently constituted, I will say that there are a-holes on both sides of the fence.


I'm such a slut for the blues.
I just happen think that the vast majority of them don't belong to my party.

"Uhh..."
Posted by PhoenixMons on 11-02-05 at 03:16 PM
What she said...


Got blog?

"RE: This is odd to me..."
Posted by dabo on 11-02-05 at 04:01 PM
Oh, but Alan Keyes is so far out there; I always love it when he comes out to put on a show, cracks me up.

SMILES ARE FREE

"RE: This is odd to me..."
Posted by bondt007 on 11-02-05 at 04:21 PM

Really? you find it odder that someone could have a different POV than you vs. people spewing hatred toward that person?

And - yes, a holes all around... I argee -


>Issued by "Q" and RollDdice

Charter Member, April 2001; Club Anti-DAW

"RE: This is odd to me..."
Posted by HistoryDetective on 11-02-05 at 04:30 PM
I'll give you another one since you're so interested.

I don't understand gay Republicans. I went to a Log Cabin Republicans meeting. Wanna know who I saw in attendance? A bunch of affluent white guys who don't have much to worry about in terms of discrimination because of their finances, sex, and race so they were more interested in the bottom line of their own checkbooks rather than any sort of policy that actually gave their less affluent, non-white, and/or female peers the rights that would raise them above being second-class citizens.

Can I describe them as the Uncle Toms of the gay community? Does that make me an a-hole too?


Sigs by Syren and Seana. Bouncie by IceCat. One and Only WeinerGuy.
journal
"We must scrupulously guard the civil rights and civil liberties of all our citizens, whatever their background. We must remember that any oppression, any injustice, any hatred, is a wedge designed to attack our civilization." --- Franklin Delano Roosevelt, 9 January 1940

"RE: This is odd to me..."
Posted by Fishercat on 11-02-05 at 03:29 PM
OK, enlighten me. I read UTC last year for history, and is the comment really an insult? I know it is meant that way and in the context it is, but why is calling someone Uncle Tom meant that way? From what I saw, Tom was a leader-type character who showed incredible character and ability for overcoming adversity and making decisions he felt to be correct in the face of white oppression, and eventually became a martyr of sorts for his beliefs and character.

Did I just completely misinterpret the character?

"RE: This is odd to me..."
Posted by HistoryDetective on 11-02-05 at 03:32 PM
Tom is also interpreted as a character who puts the needs of his white master and the master's family ahead of serving his own interests, somebody who has been duped and bought into the current system at his own expense.


Sigs by Syren and Seana. Bouncie by IceCat. One and Only WeinerGuy.
journal
"We must scrupulously guard the civil rights and civil liberties of all our citizens, whatever their background. We must remember that any oppression, any injustice, any hatred, is a wedge designed to attack our civilization." --- Franklin Delano Roosevelt, 9 January 1940

"RE: This is odd to me..."
Posted by Fishercat on 11-02-05 at 03:33 PM
Okay, thanks. I honestly did not take him that way, although I certainly see how.
"RE: This is odd to me..."
Posted by geg6 on 11-02-05 at 03:35 PM
Ack! HD beat me to it. His character can be interpreted either way. Depending on your point of view, of course.


I'm such a slut for the blues.

"RE: This is odd to me..."
Posted by PagongRatEater on 11-02-05 at 03:47 PM
I missed the part where you explained how/why that 'literary allusion' is an acceptable way to refer to a black Republican.


I already know you don't, but I REALLY want to believe you look like the Pringles guy. J Slice

"RE: This is odd to me..."
Posted by HistoryDetective on 11-02-05 at 04:05 PM
Surely you can see the difference between using the term "Uncle Tom" to refer to somebody who is perceived to put the interests of white Americans, who are generally "better off" (financially, less discrimination in work/legal system, etc) while simultaneously being perceived to do this at the expense of citizens from his own racial/ethnic background --- anchoring the description in a legitimate critique of that person's politics (whether one agrees with those politics or not, or that description of those politics) --- between that and the use of Sambo (no critical or intellectual underpinnings there; just pure unadulterated racism). The former expresses an idea; the latter relies on nothing but stereotyped animosity.


Sigs by Syren and Seana. Bouncie by IceCat. One and Only WeinerGuy.
journal
"We must scrupulously guard the civil rights and civil liberties of all our citizens, whatever their background. We must remember that any oppression, any injustice, any hatred, is a wedge designed to attack our civilization." --- Franklin Delano Roosevelt, 9 January 1940

"RE: This is odd to me..."
Posted by geg6 on 11-02-05 at 04:06 PM
You mean besides the party's aversion to affirmative action, trumpeting of law and order (which many take as code for cracking down on urban poor whether they've committed a crime or not. Ever heard of a DWB?), demonization of welfare, tax cuts for the rich, the smell that arose from voting irregularities in predominantly black neighborhoods in Florida and Ohio, the continued savaging of Bill Clinton who they feel an affinity for, and, last but not least, the images of the 9th Ward, the Superdome, and the Convention Center of New Orleans in which 99.9% of the victims who suffered for days on end had were African American?


I'm such a slut for the blues.

"RE: This is odd to me..."
Posted by PagongRatEater on 11-02-05 at 04:09 PM
So it's OK to call blacks names if they're Republicans?


I woulda thought that anybody who engaged in this kind of reprehensible race-baiting would be roundly criticized by all. I guess throwing oreo cookies at a guy just because he has the courage to form his own beliefs IS kinda funny.

"RE: This is odd to me..."
Posted by HistoryDetective on 11-02-05 at 04:19 PM
Does context count for anything? I would think that an editorial describing somebody's policies as reminiscent of an Uncle Tom would be on par with saying that another politician's tactics reminded the writer of Machiavelli. Isn't a legitimate political idea being expressed?


Sigs by Syren and Seana. Bouncie by IceCat. One and Only WeinerGuy.
journal
"We must scrupulously guard the civil rights and civil liberties of all our citizens, whatever their background. We must remember that any oppression, any injustice, any hatred, is a wedge designed to attack our civilization." --- Franklin Delano Roosevelt, 9 January 1940

Please show me where in this thread anybody condoned the Oreo cookie incident. Maybe the perpetrators got the food idea from the folks that were tossing around waffles a few years ago.

"RE: This is odd to me..."
Posted by bondt007 on 11-02-05 at 04:31 PM

Yes - context does count for something, to me. Here's my point though. There are months dedicated to blacks, and museums (here in LA) dedicated to tolerance. And I go to training so that I can tolerate others and their views.

Why? Why is it so difficult, or impossible for a black person to accept another black person if they are conservative? Why do they get to lable them as "traitor", call them names, and bring race into it?

BTW, HD - I will take you up on your deal...


>Issued by "Q" and RollDdice

Charter Member, April 2001; Club Anti-DAW

"RE: This is odd to me..."
Posted by HistoryDetective on 11-02-05 at 04:41 PM
Honestly, I don't think that it is any more acceptable for black people to call other black people names or engage in Oreo-tossing behavior and the like than it is to call each other by the n-word. Both make me uncomfortable --- though I am also uncomfortable policing black people on how I think that they should talk about themselves and each other. That being said: Categorically, I found the examples in that article despicable, with the exception of using "Uncle Tom" in an appropriate context to describe a political ideology (or lack thereof).

Deal accepted. I have several conservative/Republican friends that I get along with quite well. Arguing politics with them over a beer at the local pub helps to keep the a-holes in perspective.


Sigs by Syren and Seana. Bouncie by IceCat. One and Only WeinerGuy.
journal
"We must scrupulously guard the civil rights and civil liberties of all our citizens, whatever their background. We must remember that any oppression, any injustice, any hatred, is a wedge designed to attack our civilization." --- Franklin Delano Roosevelt, 9 January 1940

"RE: This is odd to me..."
Posted by bondt007 on 11-02-05 at 04:45 PM

So - where's the beer???


>Issued by "Q" and RollDdice

Charter Member, April 2001; Club Anti-DAW
I knew I was missing something here!!

"RE: This is odd to me..."
Posted by geg6 on 11-02-05 at 04:28 PM
You'll notice above that I called her an a-hole. And meant it.

You asked why African Americans would criticize a fellow African American for being a Republican. I just gave sound reasons they would.


I'm such a slut for the blues.

"RE: This is odd to me..."
Posted by PagongRatEater on 11-02-05 at 04:37 PM
Then why are we arguing when we agree?



I already know you don't, but I REALLY want to believe you look like the Pringles guy. J Slice