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Original Message
"Mary Kay Letourneau has been released. "
Posted by Deonna on 08-04-04 at 04:00 PM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5594933/

I have always been fascinated by this story. For the life of me, I cannot imagine a woman being attracted to a 12 or 13-year-old boy???????????????????????????????????????????????????.

Do you'll think that she is sick or "in love"??

Deonna

Table of contents
Messages in this discussion
"RE: Mary Kay Letourneau has been released. "
Posted by deerhunter on 08-04-04 at 04:01 PM
LAST EDITED ON 08-04-04 AT 04:08 PM (EST)

Edited for seriousness.

Slice n' Dice's Sigpic Chop Shop 2004

She's got some screws loose.

"RE: Mary Kay Letourneau has been released. "
Posted by PagongRatEater on 08-04-04 at 05:21 PM
I saw that. I don't think you'd care to have a contest with me on that issue!

"RE: Mary Kay Letourneau has been released. "
Posted by StarryLuna on 08-04-04 at 04:04 PM
I've never been able to understand this woman. I teach the same age group she taught and could never imagine being attracted to one of them! They're all little kids to me. That's just "ewwwwwwww" in my opinion.


Slice'n'Dice circa 2004
"Men! As boy crazy as I've been my whole life, I sure can't stand 'em." - Vickie Hiller, Down With Love

"RE: Mary Kay Letourneau has been released. "
Posted by Deonna on 08-04-04 at 04:05 PM
Thank-you!! I really need to hear that from a teacher!

Deonna

"RE: Mary Kay Letourneau has been released. "
Posted by brvnkrz on 08-04-04 at 04:06 PM
I still think she got off(no pun intended) way too easy. If she were a man(unless he were a priest)things would have been different. I know she did time, but most of that time came because she had broken the rules of her original release terms right? Personally I don't think child molestors are punished serverely enough.


I'M LOOKING FOR A TOY.

"RE: Mary Kay Letourneau has been released. "
Posted by Deonna on 08-04-04 at 04:10 PM
Yes, she original got off with probation that included not seeing the boy again. She just became pregers again by him and was THEN thrown into jail.

Deonna

"RE: Mary Kay Letourneau has been released. "
Posted by NolayC on 08-04-04 at 04:26 PM
Which is very common in these cases, some may have to spend some time in conditional jail time, but by and large child sex offenders are given probation and no contact orders as they GENERALLY are lower risk to reoffend.
"RE: Mary Kay Letourneau has been released. "
Posted by udg on 08-04-04 at 05:20 PM
they GENERALLY are lower risk to reoffend.

Whoa. I thought the recidivism rate for pedophiles was close to 100%.


Slice n' Dice's Sigpic Chop Shop 2004

"RE: Mary Kay Letourneau has been released. "
Posted by NolayC on 08-04-04 at 05:27 PM
nope 12-13% recidivism for all sex offenders. Incest offenders are around 3-4%,
"RE: Mary Kay Letourneau has been released. "
Posted by udg on 08-04-04 at 06:19 PM
Hmmm. This meta-analysis agrees with those number. However, that's the average over a 4.5 year follow up. The longer the follow up, the higher the numbers, and of course, that only counts the people who got caught. There seems to be quite a bit of research indicating that child molesters get away with a LOT before they get caught the first time.

Not that the numbers appear to be anywhere near 100%, but I suspect that 12.7% is also much lower than the actual reoffense rate.


Slice n' Dice's Sigpic Chop Shop 2004

"RE: Mary Kay Letourneau has been released. "
Posted by NolayC on 08-04-04 at 09:43 PM
LAST EDITED ON 08-05-04 AT 01:08 PM (EST)

Oh absolutely, that figure is based on individuals who have already been caught and convicted once. Through polygraph examinations, intensive treatment, and interviews we gain a better understanding of prior victims. Unfortunately, this sometimes comes at the expense of giving immunity from prosecution on those new victims that can be verified. There are of course situational reason why the numbers remain low.
Ex: Incest offenders rarely go outside the family, and once found out will rarely be offered the opportunity to offend again.
Power/sadist rapists are generally incarcerated so as to keep them from committing new offenses.
Strangely enough our neighbors to the north--yes Canada produce some of the most compelling long range sex offender research--they have been studying recidivism rates for 15-20 years. And thankfully it is felt that we are catching and convicting a greater percentage than ever before due to education, technology and general awareness of the general public.

ETA: That is the meta-analysis that nearly all of our risk assessment tools are based on.--I couldn't get that link from home last night on dial up.

"RE: Mary Kay Letourneau has been released. "
Posted by seahorse on 08-04-04 at 04:06 PM
All I can say is it is good thing she was not a male teacher. She only went to prison because of the probation violation. Things would be perceived very differently for a male teacher.


ŠSlice & Dice Chop Shop 2004

"RE: Mary Kay Letourneau has been released. "
Posted by Deonna on 08-04-04 at 04:13 PM
I agree! A male teacher having a baby with a 13-year-old student would have been severely punished!!

Deonna

"RE: Mary Kay Letourneau has been released. "
Posted by seahorse on 08-04-04 at 04:20 PM
Especially if he bore the child!



ŠSlice & Dice Chop Shop 2004

"RE: Mary Kay Letourneau has been released. "
Posted by Schnookie Palookie on 08-04-04 at 04:08 PM
What she did was so wrong and I agree with others who say she got off too easy.
"RE: Mary Kay Letourneau has been released. "
Posted by NolayC on 08-04-04 at 04:09 PM
LAST EDITED ON 08-04-04 AT 04:17 PM (EST)

LAST EDITED ON 08-04-04 AT 04:13 PM (EST)

I believe she is no more sick than a man who has sex with a 12-13 year old female. It's sexually deviant, but by no means something she'd be diagnosed with. In fact I wonder if the offense was not the result OF a mental health issue. The fact that she went back to the boy after she had been sentenced the first time probably has more to do with some sort of attachment with having conceived a child with him, than actually being with him, but it's not unheard of.
The mind of a sex offender is a very interesting thing.

In Wisconsin my sentencing recommendation would have been 5-7 years prison followed by 2-3 years extended supervision (parole)

eta: I also believe in mandatory minimums for sex offenders, in general the treatment that is provided--that does any good--is done in a confined setting where they live, breathe, eat, sleep treatment, rather than in the community where there are other life stressors.

"RE: Mary Kay Letourneau has been released. "
Posted by seahorse on 08-04-04 at 04:15 PM
LAST EDITED ON 08-04-04 AT 04:15 PM (EST)

No doubt she is no worse than a man doing the same thing, but a female adult having sex with a 12 year old student is not looked at the same way as a male adult having sex with 12 year old student.


ŠSlice & Dice Chop Shop 2004

"RE: Mary Kay Letourneau has been released. "
Posted by NolayC on 08-04-04 at 04:18 PM
LAST EDITED ON 08-04-04 AT 04:19 PM (EST)

in the eyes of the public, absolutely, you are right--CJ system sees them as all the same these days. And moreover, the reason behind the crime is probably polar to that of the male perp, young female vic.

"RE: Mary Kay Letourneau has been released. "
Posted by Asrai on 08-04-04 at 05:23 PM
All a 12 - 13 year old girl who has been forced to have sex with a male (teacher, at that) is wait out the statute of limitations and the man gets off with absolutely NO time in jail, no trial, nothing. Just adding my .02 cents.


"You? Are the poster child for debauchery." ~Femme

"RE: Mary Kay Letourneau has been released. "
Posted by seahorse on 08-04-04 at 06:23 PM
Why would she want to wait out the statute of limitations. Report it and send the jerk to jail, just saying.


ŠSlice & Dice Chop Shop 2004

"RE: Mary Kay Letourneau has been released. "
Posted by Asrai on 08-04-04 at 06:40 PM
Speaking from experience, being 12 - 13 and being that girl, I was scared to death to say anything. When I did, it was too late. California's statute of limitations was 2 years and I blew my chance to do what was right.


"You? Are the poster child for debauchery." ~Femme

"RE: Mary Kay Letourneau has been released. "
Posted by seahorse on 08-04-04 at 08:25 PM
LAST EDITED ON 08-04-04 AT 08:50 PM (EST)

LAST EDITED ON 08-04-04 AT 08:35 PM (EST)

I am very sorry to hear that. I hope that in this day and age girls coming up have enough support to report things of this nature. They should be encouraged by their teachers and parents to report such acts. By the way the statute of limitations in Louisiana must be very long or unlimited for this type of case..

I know of a family where two girls were raped by their father as children. Their mother died many years later in 2002 and then they went to the police to report they were raped by their dad about 20 years earlier. Apparently the mom knew what her husband had done and talked the girls into being quiet about it while she was alive. He was arrested, he went to trial and was convicted of rape. This was several years ago and he is still in jail. I did hear of one state however that did overturn a similar case because there was too much time between the act and the turning in of the individual.

THe man was a nephew of my mother by her first husband, so I know the details of the story. He is probably in his 60s now and the daughters are in their late 30s or early 40s


ŠSlice & Dice Chop Shop 2004

"RE: Mary Kay Letourneau has been released. "
Posted by pythonfan on 08-04-04 at 04:11 PM
Sick.

This coming from: a teacher, a mom, a grown-up, ewwwwww

Her elevator has a short circuit.


...as does his...I mean, he's 21 now and "still loves her" Have I said Ick yet?

"RE: Mary Kay Letourneau has been released. "
Posted by frisky on 08-04-04 at 04:12 PM
LAST EDITED ON 08-04-04 AT 04:12 PM (EST)

I agree that male and female child sex offenders should be treated equally.

What sets MKL apart though and what makes her case interesting is her ongoing obsession with her one victim. She's like a child sex abuser and crazed fan all rolled into one. She doesn't prey on adolescent boys, just this one boy. And she obsesses about him beyond what is "normal" for someone who is in love. She is beyond doubt a very sick person.


Slice n' Dice's Sigpic Chop Shop 2004

"RE: Mary Kay Letourneau has been released. "
Posted by Megacanuck on 08-04-04 at 04:28 PM
She does seem to be completely obsessed with him. Interestingly, the news I saw last night said that the boy wasn't sure if he wanted to have anything further to do with her. I hope for his sake he keeps all contact to a minimum. Still, there are the 2 kids. It's a difficult situation. I'm glad his mother has custody.
"RE: Mary Kay Letourneau has been released. "
Posted by toddE on 08-04-04 at 05:07 PM
This is an intriguing topic for me. I think she is both. It's weird to be in love with a 12 year old, but I know of several teachers who are married to EX-students they began seeing after the students graduated high school. She is definitely in love with Vili. I just saw Vili saying he still loves her, too, although he's not sure what kind of relationship he wants. He is fighting the court so that the two of them can see each other.

See, it was a lot simpler back when he was 12 and she was 35. Now he is 21 and she is 44. If their relationship was just starting now, it would be perfectly legal and debatably perfectly acceptable. I think they should be allowed to reunite, honestly.

It's also hard to say if males and females should be treated equally, because males tend to use their masculinity to overpower the young girl one way or another. With a female, is it the same? I think it's really questionable.

Our whole society sends conflicting messages. On one hand we present hypersexualized images of young people, on the other we try to deny their sexuality. Tricky, messy stuff.

"RE: Mary Kay Letourneau has been released. "
Posted by NolayC on 08-04-04 at 05:30 PM
On my caseload, not only would she not be allowed to see, talk or otherwise contact him, but nor would she be allowed any contact with her children, until we had all the players involved in counseling and would move ahead as the collective group of interested parties thought best.
"RE: Mary Kay Letourneau has been released. "
Posted by LeftPinky on 08-04-04 at 08:24 PM
The sad part is that the 2 girls (now 7 & 5) have seen their mother 2 or 3 times per month all through her "confinement." While she is currently prohibited from seeing Vili, she has no restrictions seeing her children.

One thing no one has mentioned in this whole thing is her previous family. When she had the first affair with Vili she was married and I believe already had 4 children. The last I heard was that the DH divorced her and moved with the children to Alaska. I wonder what, if any, contact they have had with their mother???

Slice & Dice Chop Shop 2004

"RE: Mary Kay Letourneau has been released. "
Posted by NolayC on 08-04-04 at 09:47 PM
doubtfully any, if my memory serves me at all, her DH was upset enough and over 7 years has spoiled the kids from wanting to see dear mother.

One of these days those of us in the community will get the institutions to STOP allowing contact...then if only we could educate the judges, defense attorney's, DA's....

"RE: Mary Kay Letourneau has been released. "
Posted by LeftPinky on 08-04-04 at 10:46 PM
that sounds like a tough group to educate (further)...

Slice & Dice Chop Shop 2004

"RE: Mary Kay Letourneau has been released. "
Posted by HobbsofMI on 08-05-04 at 11:28 AM
If I remember DH got a court to sever all her rights to the kids and she is a registered sex offender now so even if she did get to see them it would have to be supervised.

Reports out today states that she is trying to get permission to see Vil and marry him because she is still in love with him.


My name is Hobbs of MI and I approve this message!

"RE: Mary Kay Letourneau has been released. "
Posted by dabo on 08-05-04 at 01:53 AM
I think it says a lot about what a crummy teacher she was that Vili is currently working on getting his GED.
"RE: Mary Kay Letourneau has been released. "
Posted by HobbsofMI on 08-05-04 at 11:42 AM
My Jr High drafting teacher married his classroom helper of 3 years (7th grade through 9th) the day after she turned 16.

As students we knew something was up and so did some parents. Her mother approved of it and encouraged it from what we learned later. This was back in 1980.

What about Fedorov and Anna K. before she was 16. There is a high profile couple and it was talked about but it was ok because they were Russian.

Society has grow so accepting of so many strange things that it makes me wonder what will my kids learn, see, and know when I finally have them.



My name is Hobbs of MI and I approve this message!

"RE: Mary Kay Letourneau has been released. "
Posted by J Slice on 08-04-04 at 06:29 PM


It's funny you should bring up the question of love v. sickness. We discussed the very topic of Ms. Letourneau in my Anthropology of Love class, debating whether or not something like this could be considered love or mere deviance. My initial reaction is to say that, obviously, Ms. Letourneau had some kind of mental illness.

But then I thought about it. It's not like the boy was unwilling. This seemed to be a reciprocated relationship. Whether or not Villi was too young to truly understand the adult-formed concept of love, it was clear that there was some kind of real emotional attachment that one does not find in some similar cases.

Love is a man-formed concept. Only we can decide what is and isn't perverted. I'm not saying I support what Ms. Letourneau did; I really don't. But to simply pass it off as sickness isn't fair or right, either.


Big Brother 5, Ep9 summary is here, just for you.

"RE: Mary Kay Letourneau has been released. "
Posted by Deonna on 08-04-04 at 08:11 PM
I really miss Anthropology class, I wish I could have been there.

I can't help but wonder as the adult intrusted with the care of children what was she thinking?

I am only a dog mom and an aunt, but the welfare of my dogs, my nieces, nephews and children I don't even know, is more important than my personal wants and needs. It is hard for me to understand why any normal adult would take advantage of a child, even if they thought they were "in love." I would like to believe that the adult in the relationship would "love" the child enough to do what is best for the child.

The only conclusion I can come too is that she has to have some sort of mental problem, that caused bad judgement. What was the conclusion of your debate?

Thanks,
Deonna

"RE: Mary Kay Letourneau has been released. "
Posted by greenmonstah on 08-04-04 at 08:18 PM
LAST EDITED ON 08-04-04 AT 08:20 PM (EST)

Deonna, I agree 1000% with what you just posted.


An Augie Original. Action Figure Sold Separately.


Spot on. It is insidious behavior. A thirteen year old is a helpless target.

Edited for preposition malfunction...

"RE: Mary Kay Letourneau has been released. "
Posted by Deonna on 08-04-04 at 08:40 PM
As adults, I believe we have a responsibility to protect the young and innocent.

Deonna

"Count me weird"
Posted by Coconut on 08-04-04 at 09:36 PM
but when I was a 23-year old monitor, I had a serious attraction to a 13-year-old student (interestingly enough, it was seven years ago, at about the same time the Letourneau case was going on). It was reciprocal. However, I did maintain my professional distance, and it was very difficult.

I can't say whether MKL is sick or in love. I don't know her. It is a sad situation for all concerned, though.


NYC Princess Bride

"RE: Count me weird"
Posted by Deonna on 08-04-04 at 09:45 PM
You are not weird!! You were an adult and you were able to maitain a professional distance, even though it was hard you understood that you were the adult and he was a child.

*Smooches*

Deonna

Now that you are older and a mom, do you think you could still be attracted to a young student? Did he not seem like a boy to you but more like a man? Please ignore me if I am being too personal.

"RE: Count me weird"
Posted by Coconut on 08-05-04 at 09:30 AM
I think that now,I would not be attracted to a 13-year-old. At the time, though, I was young for my age, and he was mature for his. Still, it would have been extraordinarily inappropriate.

However, I am still sometimes attracted to my students, who are between 17 and 21 (generally. In the trades courses, I do have a few that are between 25 and 50). There's always one per term that has a crush on me, too. However, there has never been an intense attraction, and so everything is fine.

I find the friendship attraction hard to manage too, though. There have been half a dozen kids in the last few years that I would have really liked to be friends with, but I feel that I can't be the one to extend the first invitations, especially because it's not acceptable during college time (and even, I would say, on college grounds) and after the courses are over, we rarely meet by chance. I've only really maintained contact with one person, and that's mainly because of our joint Survivor fetish.


Big *smoochies* to my favourite Deonna

"RE: Count me weird"
Posted by Spanky68 on 08-05-04 at 11:03 AM
There is nothing wrong with being attracted to someone who is in that age group. A friend of mine from grad school did studies on comparitative historical development. His theory was that the hormones in our foods (milk, meat, etc) and our diet mean that our bodies are developing faster today than they did in previous centuries. Thus, a 12 year old girl today may well look like one of her ancestors did at 18 back when America was young.

But even if he was right, there is still the need for those of us who are older to resist temptation. As adults, we know and understand consequences in ways that preteens (and even most teenagers) can't.

I teach students who are typically 19 to 21. And some of the young women show signs of crushes on me. So I make it a point of talking about my family, especially my Lovely Bride, as early and often as I can. I think the combination of shame and the fact that I am off the market discourages almost all of them. I also go out of my way to NEVER be alone with a student. Though I wouldn't face the legal trouble Latourneau had, I don't want to lose my job or my family. And I would likely lose both if I was ever too tempted and gave in.

Temptation happens to all of us. The important thing is to not act on it.