After last nights episode, we can now safely say that either Vee decided not to make a move in E7, or she is just stupid enough to stick with John for a garanteed 5th (or 6th if someone pulls out immunity).

IMO, Vee is just a gutless coward going with the flow and is staying away from the drama of turning on John. Now I know that sounds stupid to some people on this board, but was Amber smart when she stuck with C/K/T? NO!! But she did. Why? Well, it is because she had no knowledge of how the game works.

Does Vee? maybe. She is screwed if she goes with John, but she is also screwed if she goes with Pappy and SweetPea. So, she could go with the sure thing, or she could go with a not so sure thing.

I pretty much base this opinion on the fact that Vee could side with Sean/Kathy/Neleh/Pappy to vote out one of John/Tammy/General/Zoe, but just like in previous Survivors, we give these people too much credit. We think that they could do the "SMART THING" and do what we say, but they always prove how stupid the game can be played and stick with the morons way of playing.

Of course, I could be wrong. It's just this time, I think I am right on.

• RE: Was Vee's Rob vote just going with the flow or just stupidity?,dabo, 01:06 AM, 04-12-02
  • RE: Was Vee's Rob vote just going with the flow or just stupidity?,dangerkitty, 01:18 AM, 04-12-02
• I think it was pretty smart,JeffGator, 01:23 AM, 04-12-02
  • RE: I think it was pretty smart,Granvil the 4th, 01:10 PM, 04-12-02
    • RE: I think it was pretty smart,samiam, 01:38 PM, 04-12-02
• RE: Was Vee's Rob vote just going with the flow or just stupidity?,drawde236, 01:28 AM, 04-12-02
  • RE: Was Vee's Rob vote just going with the flow or just stupidity?,PepeLePew13, 08:07 AM, 04-12-02
• RE: Was Vee's Rob vote just going with the flow or just stupidity?,alleyb, 02:59 AM, 04-12-02
• RE: Was Vee's Rob vote just going with the flow or just stupidity?,specie, 08:55 AM, 04-12-02
  • RE: Was Vee's Rob vote just going with the flow or just stupidity?,MeToo, 09:51 AM, 04-12-02
    • RE: Was Vee's Rob vote just going with the flow or just stupidity?,esquire, 10:02 AM, 04-12-02
      • RE: Was Vee's Rob vote just going with the flow or just stupidity?,MeToo, 10:45 AM, 04-12-02
    • RE: Was Vee's Rob vote just going with the flow or just stupidity?,3forme, 03:45 PM, 04-12-02
  • Kathy voting for Zoe,Wacko Jacko, 12:06 PM, 04-12-02
• RE: Was Vee's Rob vote just going with the flow or just stupidity?,samboohoo, 09:57 AM, 04-12-02
  • Since we are talking about Vee,weltek, 10:15 AM, 04-12-02
    • Enough about the report weigh loss theory,Wacko Jacko, 12:18 PM, 04-12-02
      • RE: Enough about the report weigh loss theory,alleyb, 02:13 PM, 04-12-02
• Dabo's right,LionChow, 11:20 AM, 04-12-02
  • RE: Dabo's right,Bebo, 11:43 AM, 04-12-02
    • RE: Dabo's right,alleyb, 02:26 PM, 04-12-02
• She is actually playing it smart.,Wacko Jacko, 12:01 PM, 04-12-02
  • Disagree,MeToo, 12:23 PM, 04-12-02
    • RE: Disagree,managerr, 12:55 PM, 04-12-02
    • You have the right to disagree, but,Wacko Jacko, 02:46 PM, 04-12-02
    • RE: Disagree,Spidey, 03:28 PM, 04-12-02
      • RE: Disagree,MeToo, 03:36 PM, 04-12-02
• RE: Was Vee's Rob vote just going with the flow or just stupidity?,JohnMc, 02:22 PM, 04-12-02
  • RE: Was Vee's Rob vote just going with the flow or just stupidity?,Wacko Jacko, 02:41 PM, 04-12-02
  • RE: Was Vee's Rob vote just going with the flow or just stupidity?,MeToo, 02:46 PM, 04-12-02

She has given up on any idea of winning and is just trying to stay in the game as long as possible, IMO.

That could be, dabo - and even if she is, she may find herself in a swing vote position next ep and be forced to make a decision. Sean voted John, Kathy voted Zoe AND previews indicate she doesn't trust her, Neleh is upset. We are being pointed to the alliance of K/S/P/N as,if nothing else, a group with common "enemies".

Vee voting Rob - she witnessed the "drama" between John and Rob, and I think she made a choice based on that. Also, Rob admitted lying in TC. Almost all we have seen of Vee is praying. She may have decided based on her "moral" judgement of who was the worst sinner. (seriously!)

Anyway, if the two groups of four break up the way it is being suggested, Vee is the swing vote. She shares the religious angle with Neleh and Paschal. Given what we have been shown of her, that may be enough to make her decision.

Hey I think Vee's decision to join the John/Tammy/Zoe/Robert alliance was pretty smart. Yeah, she'll probably be the first one to go when it gets down to the five of them, but you've got to remember, that the longer you stay on the show, the more money you receive from MB. Fifth place may not get a million, but from what I've heard, the money ain't bad. It's not like she had much of a chance if she stuck with Rob and Sean anyway. And there's a good chance with all the time left in the game she could convince them to vote John or someone else off before she goes. Who knows, she could wind up winning this game.

______________________________________________________________
19 year old Student at the University of Florida--Go Gators, Go Gina, and Go Gary and Dave!
______________________________________________________________
"I may be alot of things, but I ain't no Hershey Bar."

Whoa.

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that first place took the mil, and second got 100k, and Noone got any money after that - sucks to be third.

Anyone?

*Everyone* gets money, even the first one voted off, although they don't get much ($2500, IIRC). Third place gets $85K, and then on down the line.

some people wear their heart upon their sleeeve...i wear mine underneath my right pant leg strapped to my boot -- ani difranco

I wouldn't write off Vee just yet. Either Vee is a really boring person and is edited out due to her "drama-free" mode, or there is some agenda still not shown. I think this vote was just a hint of what is to come. I have a feeling (and it could just be gas) that the true Rotu 4 is Tammy, Voodoo Bob, Vee and Zoe.

>I wouldn't write off Vee just yet. Either Vee is
>a really boring person and is edited out due to
>her "drama-free" mode, or there is some agenda still not
>shown. I think this vote was just a
>hint of what is to come. I have
>a feeling (and it could just be gas) that the
>true Rotu 4 is Tammy, Voodoo Bob, Vee and Zoe.

You might not be too far off the mark there. I'm not so sure yet about Zoe, but it is true that these four have not been seen very much yet in the editing -- our possible final four? I agree that John has a good chance of getting bumped out of this foursome because he's caused a lot of uproars.

However... if Vee is truly smart, she would now see she has a tremendous opportunity to go further in the game by aligning with Pappy/Neleh/Sean/Kathy. I think Vee would hold her own better in challenges against these 4 than against Robert/Tammy/Zoe/John, plus she's got the spiritual connection there. The question is whether Pappy/Neleh would consider taking in Vee and Sean after all they've heard about Gina about (especially) Sean and going against their original tribemates. We saw Neleh speaking out in anger -- misdirection by MB to make us think she would be willing to break ties?

LAST EDITED ON 04-12-02 AT 04:12 AM (EST)

I disagree with you "gutless coward" assessment. Part of being shrewd in the game is waiting for the right time to make a move. This clearly was not the right time for Vee to go against the prevailing tribal sentiments. If she didn't vote along with the Rotus, she'd be seen as still hanging onto her loyalty to Maraamu and would definately be out of the game earlier. By going with the flow, she can continue to ingratiate herself with the people in power, and with all the "drama" still going on between other people in the game, it looks like she might get an opportunity to take advantage of the cracks in Rotu later in the game.

Bottom line: you have to pick your battles, and Vee realized that this was not the time--yet.

Also--I dispute your claim that Neleh & Pascal were available to be pulled into a counter-alliance just yet. They know there is strife, but at present it doesn't seem to threaten their positions in the game (to their eyes). Once Neleh & Pascal are able to realize their own positions in the tribe post-merge, they'll be more approachable about a counter-alliance. It's all in the timing--wait until people realize they are vulnerable, then make your move.

What a dud! There was Rob, arguing for his life, and she just acts disgusted, like she would never dirty her hands being involved in any kind of strategy. As it looks now, we're back to the same old formula - the alliance of 4, plus a likeable other tribe member strung along for 5th place. If that's what Vee is happy with, fine, just don't diss others who are trying to create their own outcomes. I don't see the new twist of being able to give your immunity to someone as having any impact in this scenario at all.

I loved the night with Rob & Kathy. Too bad Rob didn't go farther than just call people on their lying and actually try to get together a coalition to oust John.

Interesting:
- Kathy told John all that Rob told her
- Paschal and Nelah seemingly lovey-dovey with old Rotu - what happened to their disbelief at the Gabe ouster?
- Kathy votes for Zoe! What was that about?
- Sean bonding with John over their minority status

I love Kathy, but think that she's the next to go. Even if she got Paschal and Nelah and Sean to get together, they're still one vote shy of having any clout.

--Specie

Kathy voted Zoe because of her pact with Rob. Rob pointed the finger at Zoe, so that's who Kathy voted for. Question is, did he make a mistake in directing Kathy towards Zoe or is there something we haven't seen yet? Was it because Kathy told him that she bonded with Zoe, or is there some reason that Zoe SHOULD be targeted before John?

With respect to Vee, I think she just sealed a 5th place finish. No matter which way she swings her vote next, she can never finish better than 5th - even Sean doesn't trust her anymore. Kathy's biggest mistake was not realizing that her ONLY chance was to break up the Rotu-4 alliance. Rob's biggest mistake was not spelling it out to her. Pascall and Neleh? Does anybody have any idea what their strategy could possibly be at this point? Do they even have one? Did anybody get the impression that they MIGHT have sided with Kathy if she had correctly brought them into an alliance with Rob?

Again, I'm disappointed that stupidity prevails.

MeToo

ALthough I'm no fan o Vee, don't rule her out, yet. Considering her situation (virtually all of her original tribemates are gone), she is positioning herself as best as can be expected under the circumstances. If she makes it to the final 5, things can happen that help her along. NO one and I mean no one would have bet that MamaKim would be a professional athlete and Lex in the final immunity challenges to get to th efinalk round, and yet it happened. No one would have bet on Will from Big Brother on winning, and yet as long as he was still in the game, human dynamics can work in all types of ways. I',m not sure its a bad strategy for Vee to try and get to the final 5 and hope for things to break her way after that.

Of course, immunity can change everything. But Mamakim got to the final 4 by being part of the dominant alliance. She won the fallen commrades (not unexpected) and then was a surprise winner of only one immunity challenge. Vee is not part of the dominant alliance. Due to her defection, she can never be better than 5th in any alliance. Also, traiters (and perceived traiters) have never fared well ala Brandon, Kelly G, Gabe (hung out with the other tribe). Nope, turning to the dark side was DUMB.

<<Kathy voted Zoe because of her pact with Rob. Rob pointed the finger at Zoe, so that's who Kathy voted for. Question is, did he make a mistake in directing Kathy towards Zoe or is there something we haven't seen yet? Was it because Kathy told him that she bonded with Zoe, or is there some reason that Zoe SHOULD be targeted before John? >>

I think no matter who Kathy said that she had bonded with at Rotu, that Rob would have had that whole conversation with her, just using another person's name. If Kathy brought up Tammy, then Rob would have latched on to that claiming that Tammy was going to vote her out. Rob had no way of knowing who Kathy, Neleh or Paschal were close too. He would have tried to have this conversation with whoever of the three showed up.

JMO!

The reason behind it was she kept her alliance with Rob.

She also made a statement to Zoe.

I think it was a great move by Kathy.

I agree that Vee will outlive John in the Rotu Alliance. They will keep her around to serve their purpose, and now they probably need her more because we know Kathy doesn't trust them. I think Neleh's "honesty" outburst will be about the Gabe ousting -- this will cause Pappy and Neleh to re-think their relationships with the old Rotu.

Sean will not make it to anyone's alliance. Barring immunity, he's out next week.

I noticed a big spike her camera time this week. She didn't necessarily say a lot, but the camera caught shots of her more than usual. I am starting to believe we are being set up for her exit soon. Not necessarily next, but it makes me think about the possibility of Sean then Vee going. That coupled with Kathy's reported weight loss has me thinking about the obvious.

I don't think Vee is stupid. She knew where to suck up. You are right, I think she gave up playing the game to win, and is now just in it to get as far as possible. I think she has an agenda, it's just not going to be the big mastermind scheme some think.

Everyone has said these Survivors have eaten more than Survivor's in th past. I heard Lex and Mike Skupin get jealous that they have all the fruit they want and buckets of Crab. IT'S NOT AN ISSUE!

I don't think the weight loss reports can be dismissed that easily. One of the Survivors (Gina?...someone) estimated that they ate about 800 calories a day. Yes, enough to live on and not starve, but certainly a diet that would encourage weight loss. And you can already see the weight loss on the show--John and Rob particularly looked much thinner than at the start of the show.

Also note that they aren't eating much in the way of carbs--not even rice or corn mush. Sound like the Protein Power diet to me.

I totally agree with Dabo's theory that she is simply trying to hang on as long as possible, while keeping her eyes open in case something crazy happens.

Much like Theresa in S3, Vee has her Frank (Sean) to drag along for a bit longer, and then will be on her own. Theresa actively tried everything in the book to win, and almost pulled it off (much like Rob). I don't know yet if Vee has the same spunk that Theresa had, but it won't be long before we find out.

The big question mark is what will the "Big 4" do with Neleh and Paschal? How long would you want to let a solid and unpredictable voting block hang around if you were in the Rotu 4?

>The big question mark is what will the "Big 4" do
>with Neleh and Paschal? How long would you want
>to let a solid and unpredictable voting block hang around
>if you were in the Rotu 4?

Not to mention extremely likeable folks who could do well in a final 2 vote...

The challenge is to vote them off in a way that doesn't foster any ill will, a la Lis and Rodger's demise in S2. I could see the Rotu 3 (I'm sorry, like others have mentioned on this board, I see John as an outsider) carrying them to the final 5 and using this solid voting block to help eliminate Sean, John, Kathy, and Vee.

Wild thought to throw out here...Neleh has been shown in close embraces with both Zoe and Robert. Maybe the original Rotu alliance was Zoe, Robert, Neleh, and Paschal (plus Gabe). Zoe and Robert could be playing both sides, like Colby did in S2, and the true alliance is still being hidden from us at this point.

S.O.B.

I agree--the real alliance has yet to be shown to us. I think the title for the Recap Ep. points to that--"Look Closer"--as if the audience has been missing something to this point. What do we need to look closer at? What have we missed along the way through the first 7 episodes? We really know very little about the real relationships between the original Rotu tribe, and I think the key relationships in the game haven't been shown to us yet.

On a side note...does anyone else feel that in the brief John/Zoe alliance agreement conversation, Zoe was acting much like she did when forced to lie by Rob? I think the way she reacted to John's proposal makes me think that this was her first lie on the show, and the rest have actually been partial truths.

But I think it's more her wanting to stay in the game as long as she can. Morally I also think that she doesn't agree with the approach Rob and Sean took and she had enough and sided with John.

Now why is she smart? Well, it's like this. John gave Rob, Sean and her there word that Kathy, Neleh and Paschal would go before her. Yes, he promised Rob and Sean the same thing but John said that was before Rob decided to stir things up.

Ok, now let's say John gets paranoid like Lex did with Kelly. he decides that he can't trust Zoe. She is getting to close to Kathy. She is a waffler and can't be trusted like Gabe. John will look for someone to replace her in his group of 4 and that person would likely be Vee.

Remember Kim J from Survivor 3. She made it to the final four won immunity twice and it was her and Ethan in the finals. She had a chance. I also think Vee is playing the game better than Kim J and has made no enemies. If she is playing John or someone else from old Rotu that may not be so. It's only original Rotu and Sean/Vee from Maramuu in the jury. Sean will vote for Vee and what about Kathy, Paschal or Neleh? And Zoe if John turns on her may go with Vee too.

I know this is alot but Vee stood no chance staying with Rob and Sean. I don't care what anyone says - Paschal and Neleh would never side with Sean and Vee over their old tribe. Vee was a goner unless she did what she did.

By this vote, Vee has already demonstrated her lack of loyalty and that she IS a traitor. Gabe was voted out on the "perception" that he was not trustworthy.

> I also think Vee
>is playing the game better
>than Kim J and has
>made no enemies.

By switching sides, she has made an enemy of Sean (at the bare minimum).

>I know this is alot but
>Vee stood no chance staying
>with Rob and Sean.
>I don't care what anyone
>says - Paschal and Neleh
>would never side with Sean
>and Vee over their old
>tribe. Vee was a
>goner unless she did what
>she did.

Vee had nothing to lose by voting WITH Rob and Sean - it would be expected. It is still possible to overthrow the Rotu-4 with combined forces. Paschal and Neleh can't be so utterly naive that after 3 more days, they aren't able to figure out where they stand. Kathy is already on the fence. Rob tried to show them the way - Pagong John and his crew and then play 2 teams of 3. By switching sides, Vee accepts a best possible 5th place finish, barring any immunity she may win but we haven't seen any particular strength of hers to put her at any advantage. Even if she tries to switch back, she will still be 5th based on her demonstrated lack of loyalty and untrustworthiness.

Nope, Vee pulled a Brandon, and look where that got him.

How would Vee's voting with Rotu alienate Sean? From the CBS previews, it looks like they're back together next week. (Sean isn't nearly as dense as Kim P was) Vee realized taht her vote was utterly worthless this week and chose to vote with Rotu--she might be playing for 5th place against Paschal and Neleh. Better to not rock the vote right now.

I will grant that personality wise, Vee reminds me of Amber/Kim J, but I'll wait one more week before I judge her as being "stoopid". I think people are letting their sentiment towards Rob impair their judgement.

Let's say Vee is the 5th person of the alliance.

There is a very probable chance that one of the top 4 get's ousted because they are not trusted.

They said it last night no one trusts no one.

If Zoe get's too close with Kathy, Zoe may be that person and then Vee could be in the final 4. Remember Kim J slipping to the finals once she made it to the final 4. She was the 4th person of the 4 person alliance.

I am just saying Vee stood a better chance of making it to the final 4 this way than by aligning herself with Rob and Sean.

I don't believe Neleh or Paschal would form an alliance with Rob and Sean. And I think Vee felt the same way. Vee played it very smart in my view.

>By this vote, Vee has already
>demonstrated her lack of loyalty
>and that she IS a
>traitor.
>By switching sides, she has made
>an enemy of Sean (at
>the bare minimum).
>
Jiffy never read the last vote. For all they know it could have been Vee's for John. He may suspect her, but unless she tells, I don't see how Sean will KNOW Vee has turned.

>>
>Jiffy never read the last vote.
> For all they know
>it could have been Vee's
>for John. He may
>suspect her, but unless she
>tells, I don't see how
>Sean will KNOW Vee has
>turned.
>
You may be right about this and it may be Vee's last hope. But there was an aweful lot of evidence other than the vote that Vee had switched (i.e. the kissing etc.), as well as Sean and Rob's comments the previous week about Vee keeping her distance and
"sucking up" to the others. I think there is a good chance that everybody, including Sean, knows who Vee is siding with.

If Vee is the swing vote with 2 groups of 4, then she truly does cast the deciding vote on who makes final 5. The other 4 can effectively be Pagonged.

I'm more inclined to believe, though, that Sean is the next to go. He has no alliance anymore. The other 8 may vote him off 8-1. Vee's position will then be determined on how well she has bonded with any of the remaining Rotu. If she has bonded, then she'll be treated like an original lovetribe Rotu. If not, she's next after Sean, though there is a possibility that other Rotu may be voted out before her, ala Jerri/Amber.

To win the game, though, you also have to court jury votes. Vee will lose Sean's vote if she doesn't side with him. (Of course, if, by some extreme freak of nature, they both end up in F2, then his vote doesn't count anyway.)

Vee doesn't necessarily lose Sean's vote. I think they aligned in the first place becuase of race and I think that bound is still there.

If she has
>bonded, then she'll be treated
>like an original lovetribe Rotu.
> If not, she's next
>after Sean, though there is
>a possibility that other Rotu
>may be voted out before
>her, ala Jerri/Amber.
>

With or without Vee, eventually, the original lovetribe Rotu WILL have to vote on itself. Who will that be - lovable Neleh, stoic Pascall, or 2-timing, adopted child Vee? I will grant you that Kathy is/was unstable enough to bring her own vote first, but somehow I doubt it. Jerri was brutal to have around and they only kept her as long as they needed to. As a result, Colby lost her vote in the jury since she thougth he was part of an alliance with her. Amber is/was insignificant and never played anyway.