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"Discussion Thread Ep. 6.06: "Sundown""
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mrc 10020 desperate attention whore postings
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02-28-10, 10:49 AM (EST)
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"Discussion Thread Ep. 6.06: "Sundown""
This thread is for discussion of the episode once it airs on the Left Coast or for spoiler-free discussion prior to the episode.

(Note: The episode description and guest casting are in the spoiler thread. I'm trying to err on the side of caution, but I don't want to stifle discussion. If folks prefer, we can discuss them in this thread, and I'll make a note to include them in future discussion threads.)

Otherwise, please keep all spoilers in the designated thread.

Tribefied

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  Table of Contents

  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
 RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.06: "Su... zombiebaby 03-03-10 1
   RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.06: "Su... Breezy 03-03-10 2
       RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.06: "Su... trigirl 03-03-10 3
           RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.06: "Su... CTgirl 03-03-10 14
           RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.06: "Su... Flowerpower 03-03-10 25
   RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.06: "Su... Tummy 03-03-10 4
       RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.06: "Su... Breezy 03-03-10 7
           RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.06: "Su... Tummy 03-03-10 10
   RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.06: "Su... michel 03-03-10 32
       RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.06: "Su... frodis 03-03-10 35
           RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.06: "Su... michel 03-03-10 37
               RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.06: "Su... frodis 03-04-10 44
                   RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.06: "Su... michel 03-07-10 47
 RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.06: "Su... Tummy 03-03-10 5
   RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.06: "Su... Max Headroom 03-03-10 8
       RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.06: "Su... Road Kill 03-03-10 19
           RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.06: "Su... frodis 03-03-10 20
 RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.06: "Su... mrc 03-03-10 6
   RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.06: "Su... Flowerpower 03-03-10 29
       RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.06: "Su... michel 03-03-10 33
           RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.06: "Su... dabo 03-04-10 40
               RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.06: "Su... michel 03-04-10 43
 Claire and Charley esquire 03-03-10 9
   RE: Claire and Charley Flowerpower 03-04-10 41
 RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.06: "Su... frodis 03-03-10 11
   RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.06: "Su... Breezy 03-03-10 12
   RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.06: "Su... Tummy 03-03-10 21
 RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.06: "Su... CTgirl 03-03-10 13
   RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.06: "Su... CTgirl 03-03-10 15
       Dr. Linus Flowerpower 03-03-10 28
   RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.06: "Su... Breezy 03-03-10 16
       RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.06: "Su... Max Headroom 03-03-10 18
   RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.06: "Su... frodis 03-03-10 17
 Smokey's victims frodis 03-03-10 22
   RE: Smokey's victims dabo 03-03-10 23
       RE: Smokey's victims CTgirl 03-03-10 24
           RE: Smokey's victims trigirl 03-03-10 26
           RE: Smokey's victims frodis 03-03-10 31
               RE: Smokey's victims Flowerpower 03-04-10 42
       RE: Smokey's victims frodis 03-03-10 30
           RE: Smokey's victims dabo 03-04-10 38
   RE: Smokey's victims weltek 03-03-10 36
 Purgatory trigirl 03-03-10 27
 Their Prayers were Answered michel 03-03-10 34
   RE: Their Prayers were Answered BrassFan 03-06-10 45
       RE: Their Prayers were Answered michel 03-06-10 46
           RE: Their Prayers were Answered BrassFan 03-07-10 48
               RE: Their Prayers were Answered michel 03-07-10 49
                   RE: Their Prayers were Answered BrassFan 03-07-10 50
                       RE: Their Prayers were Answered michel 03-07-10 51
                           RE: Their Prayers were Answered dabo 03-08-10 52
                           RE: Their Prayers were Answered BrassFan 03-08-10 53
                               RE: Their Prayers were Answered michel 03-08-10 54
                                   RE: Their Prayers were Answered BrassFan 03-08-10 55
                                       RE: Their Prayers were Answered michel 03-09-10 56
                                           RE: Their Prayers were Answered dabo 03-09-10 57
                                               RE: Their Prayers were Answered michel 03-09-10 58
 RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.06: "Su... Outfrontgirl 03-04-10 39

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zombiebaby 7355 desperate attention whore postings
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03-03-10, 06:09 AM (EST)
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1. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.06: "Sundown""
My quick first thought after this crazy episode was Sayid did not have a scene where he looked in a mirror did he?

Still not sure which side is "good" and "evil". Very ambiguous. And? I kind of like that they are holding out.

Also loved Ben telling Sayid to "come on and get out of there". I just thought it was funny.

Be back this afternoon!

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Breezy 18379 desperate attention whore postings
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03-03-10, 07:59 AM (EST)
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2. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.06: "Sundown""
While I enjoyed it... I was disappointed that it was hyped as an episode with answers. I didn't get any answers!

Sayid evil was awesome! He did a great job.

Did everyone notice the look XLocke gave Claire when Kate appeared? Me thinks Kate better run, run far away!

So where were Sawyer and Jin during all of this?

I like Miles, so glad he was saved.

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trigirl 2844 desperate attention whore postings
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03-03-10, 09:21 AM (EST)
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3. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.06: "Sundown""
LAST EDITED ON 03-03-10 AT 09:22 AM (EST)

I think Flocke gave Kate the "look" because he knows that he has a problem with her. He can't kill the candidates, but he didn't recruit her. She didn't choose to be there and this will cause him problems in the 'game'. She can expose his lie to Claire.

Flocke lies to tempt those to his will, but lets them think they have chosen freely. Jacob uses hope to sway those to his will. But is that any less manipulative?

Where did Ben go after he left Sayid? How did he escape smokey?

The Sayid and Jin connection in LA X was not fully fleshed out. Hmmm.

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CTgirl 7073 desperate attention whore postings
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03-03-10, 12:34 PM (EST)
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14. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.06: "Sundown""
We know that Mr. Paik operates like a gangster in Korea so it isn't too far off to see Jin having to deal with a thug like Keamy (although I was surprised when it was revealed that it was Jin tied up). We will probably see how Jin gets there during his flash back.

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03-03-10, 03:52 PM (EST)
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25. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.06: "Sundown""
I think Kate was the one that was freaked upon seeing John Locke up and running again...his stare was one of "I'll deal with you later"...

Ben told Sayid when he was sitting by the spring after killing Lennon that he knew a way out, it wasn't too late...to which Sayid replied, "it is for me". I think he went out the other way out that he knew about.

Yes, I agree with CTgirl, while Jin was supposed to deliver the watch to an associate of Mr. Pait's in the US...somehow or another Mr. Pait's organization is...was connected to Keamy's.

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03-03-10, 09:48 AM (EST)
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4. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.06: "Sundown""
No mirrors (I don't think) but there was a prominent reflection of Sayid when he knocked at Nadia's door in the FS.
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03-03-10, 10:46 AM (EST)
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7. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.06: "Sundown""
Yep that reflection was very prominent.
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Tummy 3542 desperate attention whore postings
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03-03-10, 11:38 AM (EST)
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10. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.06: "Sundown""
It was. I even went back and paused it to see if there was any reflection of the island in the background but didn't see anything.
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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03-03-10, 06:06 PM (EST)
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32. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.06: "Sundown""
>Still not sure which side is
>"good" and "evil". Very
>ambiguous. And? I
>kind of like that they
>are holding out.

Since both Jacob and MIB want something, neither can be said to be completely good. That being said, a killer is always evil. We had seen Smokey kill before and, last night, he killed anyone who didn't obey him. That is evil incarnate. While one could say Jacob killed all those that didn't survive the plane crash, we have never seen him kill anyone directly.


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03-03-10, 06:56 PM (EST)
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35. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.06: "Sundown""
I think almost every main character (and lots of minor characters) has killed someone. Sayid, of course, Kate, Ben, Jack, Sawyer, Sun, Locke, even Hurley.

Are they all evil incarnate?


It's not just A Zombie Original, it's THE Zombie Original!

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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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03-03-10, 08:14 PM (EST)
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37. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.06: "Sundown""
LAST EDITED ON 03-03-10 AT 11:13 PM (EST)

Some yes but self-defense doesn't make a killer.

ETA: I also wanted to add that what applies to deities and what applies to weak mortals isn't the same.

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03-04-10, 07:13 PM (EST)
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44. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.06: "Sundown""
And there's your ambiguity. When you start with an absolute statement like, a killer is always evil, and then modify it by saying that it depends on the circumstances, motive, method, and metaphysical state of the killer, you've introduced ambiguity.

I don't disagree with the point you made, but I do interpret it differently than you have. Where you have found it to be a difference between MiB and Jacob in that MiB is a hands-on killer and Jacob has not been seen murdering people, I think that it makes them more similar.


It's not just A Zombie Original, it's THE Zombie Original!

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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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03-07-10, 02:39 AM (EST)
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47. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.06: "Sundown""
Ambiguity? Yes, maybe I should have written "anybody who wants to kill is always evil" but I think the law is pretty clear on the difference between a cold-blooded murderer and everything else from accidental death to manslaughter.

"Where you have found it to be a difference between MiB and Jacob in that MiB is a hands-on killer and Jacob has not been seen murdering people, I think that it makes them more similar."

Actually, I think they are very similar: They are 2 entities playing with human lives. The only difference is that one thinks he's doing it for our good, the other doesn't give a damn.

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Tummy 3542 desperate attention whore postings
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03-03-10, 10:06 AM (EST)
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5. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.06: "Sundown""
All I can say is - 10 episodes to go before the 2 hour finale!!!!! They'd better start showing some answers or they need to change it to an 8 hour finale.
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Max Headroom 10028 desperate attention whore postings
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03-03-10, 11:08 AM (EST)
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8. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.06: "Sundown""
Word.
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03-03-10, 01:20 PM (EST)
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19. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.06: "Sundown""
Max, are you talking about the current episode or last weeks?
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frodis 4442 desperate attention whore postings
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03-03-10, 01:31 PM (EST)
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20. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.06: "Sundown""
*snort*

*applause*

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mrc 10020 desperate attention whore postings
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03-03-10, 10:46 AM (EST)
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6. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.06: "Sundown""
I've concluded that any "aha!" moments aren't going to come until late in the season. I hope, at least.

1. I like Sayid, but his story has never drawn me in.

2. Claire is freaky. Singing that lullaby creeped me out.

3. Ben and Miles should do a comedy tour.

Tribefied

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03-03-10, 04:10 PM (EST)
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29. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.06: "Sundown""

2. Claire is freaky. Singing that lullaby creeped me out.

Did you notice that the same lullaby was playing when Sayid, Claire, and Kate walked out of the temple after Smokey had killed everyone...down and outright creepy!


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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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33. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.06: "Sundown""
Does anyone have the words to that song?
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dabo 25344 desperate attention whore postings
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03-04-10, 12:50 PM (EST)
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40. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.06: "Sundown""
You can read them and listen to it here

http://kokomo.ca/pop_standards/catch_a_falling_star_lyrics.htm

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43. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.06: "Sundown""
Thanks
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esquire 1089 desperate attention whore postings
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03-03-10, 11:28 AM (EST)
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9. "Claire and Charley"
Does anyone else think that Charlie is going to appear sometime before the show ends and somehow guide Claire to the other side
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03-04-10, 05:48 PM (EST)
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41. "RE: Claire and Charley"

Does anyone else think that Charlie is going to appear sometime before the show ends and somehow guide Claire to the other side

I sure hope so. I have hope as we saw Sun find Charlie's ring with the initials "DS" on it in the first episode, when they were at their old beach camp, didn't we? Or, was that last season? Now that I think about it, I think it was late in Season 5, when Sun, Frank, Ben, were with XLocke, before we knew he was Smokey, headed toward the statue, led by Richard. We saw their old beach camp and Sun saw Aaron's old cradle that Locke had made for Claire, and then she found Charlie's ring. I think that was the same episode where XLocke sat down with Ben, and you could see the door of the old Hatch in the background as well...



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11. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.06: "Sundown""
Nice acting from Claire. She's doing crazy really well, and creepily.

Smokey ransacking the temple was awesome. Loved the visuals, the sound, the weird orange light, the slow-mo.

Were there images in the smoke when it flew over Kate/Claire in the hole? Mr Fro thought he saw something but we're not cool enough to vidcap.

Last shot, Not-Locke walking away from the temple with the followers. . . all of the dudes in the shot had beards. I'm sure this means nothing but it stuck out.

Kind of weird:
Thus far, Season 6's episodes have mirrored Season 1's episodes.
1-2. 2 hour pilot dealing with how they got there = 2 hour first dealing with how they got there.

3. Season 1 "Tabula Rasa", Kate-centric episode = Season 6 "What Kate Does" - Kate-centric.

4. Season 1 "Walkabout" Locke-centric episode = Season 6 "the Substitute" Locke episode

5. Season 1 "White Rabbit" Jack-centric episode = Season 6 "Lighthouse" Jack episode

6. But here at episode 6, they diverge. In Season 1 the episode was "House of the Rising Sun" and was about Sun. I fully expected that this episode, called "Sundown" would be about Sun but instead it was about Sayid. I was surprised.

7. Looking ahead: The Season 1 episode was "The Moth" was about Charlie.

It's a bit of a chess match, isn't it. Smokey capturing Jacob's "pieces."



It's not just A Zombie Original, it's THE Zombie Original!

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03-03-10, 12:28 PM (EST)
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12. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.06: "Sundown""
From the previews, next week looks like a Ben episode.

I thought I saw people in the smoke when it went over Kate and Claire.... like the souls of the peeps it was killing kind of thing.

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21. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.06: "Sundown""
It's a bit of a chess match, isn't it. Smokey capturing Jacob's "pieces."

Hmmm - Would that make Kate the "queen"? I don't think so or she would be targeted more, but...

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13. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.06: "Sundown""
Every time I see a clip of Sayid being carried from the water in the temple, it reminds me of Jesus on the cross. He is holding his arms very rigidly. Jesus was resurrected and so was Sayid. However, he was resurrected with the 'devil' in him...

Until last night I thought that both sides could have good and evil in them, making this war have a lot of gray areas. But although Jacob manipulates people, MIB lies to them. He seems much darker and evil than Jacob's touchy-feely machinations. Here are how the teams seem to be shaping up:

Team Jacob: Hurley, Shepard, Alana, Frank, Sun, Ben?

Team FLocke: Claire, Sayid, Sawyer

so how will Kate fit in with FLocke? I like whomever said that Kate will cause problems for FLocke. Jin is in Claire's camp so he may end up on the opposite side from Sun, but he hasn't made a deal with FLocke - yet.

I am starting to think that these flash sideways are just a story telling mechanism (or filler) until the finale. This is what happened after the bomb detonated but something else bigger is going to happen on the island that will alter their destinies once again.

At this point doesn't it have to be Widmore & Co. who is coming to the island? There isn't enough storytelling time left for it to be anyone else.


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03-03-10, 12:36 PM (EST)
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15. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.06: "Sundown""
I just reread trigirl's post and she makes a good point - how did Ben survive the smoke monster?

All along Ben is the one we've never known if he's good or bad. His character has been quite the chameleon and the man we love to hate!

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03-03-10, 04:06 PM (EST)
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28. "Dr. Linus"

Well, it looks like next week is all about Ben! I won't state what the voiceover in the promo said, even though it aired last night after the episode, for fear of violating the spoiler rules in this thread. I'll wait for mrc to post the spoiler thread for "Dr. Linus".


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03-03-10, 12:46 PM (EST)
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16. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.06: "Sundown""
I like the thinking that there's another big thing going to happen.

Is someone really coming? Or did Jacob just use that as an excuse to get Hurley and Jack out of there?

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18. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.06: "Sundown""
I thought Jacob got Hurley and Jack out of the temple before XLocke arrived and trashed the place.
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frodis 4442 desperate attention whore postings
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03-03-10, 01:05 PM (EST)
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17. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.06: "Sundown""
Well, Jin and Sawyer are two of the people who have no history between 2004-2007 since they went back to 1977 and jumped right to 2007 after the bomb.


It's not just A Zombie Original, it's THE Zombie Original!

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03-03-10, 03:07 PM (EST)
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22. "Smokey's victims"
Help me out - as I may be forgetting some people.

Who have we seen Smokey kill? Seems to me that he's killed a lot of "red shirts" like the pilot, and the freighter people, and some of Danielle's French people, and all of those miscellaneous people at the temple, but other than Mr. Eko, who has Smokey killed that we "know"?

Ben has faced (summoned, even) Smokey before and was not killed so Smokey doesn't seem to just be a rampant killer. He either doesn't, or won't, or can't kill just anyone he wants to kill. We know that. But who CAN he kill?

I'm going back to the notion that he is a security system for the Island. Maybe he's able to kill people who aren't supposed to be there but wind up there anyway? I wonder whether Eko falls into that category because it's the only explanation I can figure for Smokey being able to kill him. Maybe Eko wasn't supposed to be there.

Another random thought regarding Eko. Last night's episode with Sayid professing himself to be a good person reminded me of Eko. When facing his death by Smokey, didn't he proclaim that he's a good person? (I think that conversation was with Yemi, whom I'm assuming was really Smokey.) Eko professed his "goodness" and that was when we saw Smokey with all of the images of Eko. Did Smokey scan Eko, and what was the result?

Was Eko actually "good" and therefore, of no use to Smokey, so he killed him?

Or was Eko "bad" and therefore of no use to Smokey, so he killed him?


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03-03-10, 03:36 PM (EST)
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23. "RE: Smokey's victims"
Well, the spiders that paralized Nikki and Paulo were manifestations of MIB.
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24. "RE: Smokey's victims"
I wonder if the smoke monster killing Eko, Nikki and Paolo was part of the original plot or if they just used it to get rid of characters that needed to be written off? Season 2 was early on, before they had an end date, when they weren't really sure where they were going...for example, they incorporated Ben's character into the story but he was originally hired for a short-term stint.
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03-03-10, 03:53 PM (EST)
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26. "RE: Smokey's victims"
I'm thinking there was a little tongue in cheek about the spiders.

I have often wondered how much of the plot was intially conceived. Obviously none of the character were that well fleshed out. Not only was Ben hired on initially as a small role...the character of Jack Shephard was cast with Micheal Keaton who was supposed to be killed off in the pilot.

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03-03-10, 04:18 PM (EST)
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31. "RE: Smokey's victims"
HA! Okay, so option 3 is: Actors were good/bad/unavailable so the writers had no use for them.


I did consider that they had Smokey kill Eko just because it would look cool and give us a nice close-up look at Smokey and that beyond that, it didn't mean anything.



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42. "RE: Smokey's victims"

they had Smokey kill Eko just because it would look cool and give us a nice close-up look at Smokey


Ahhh, that reminds me of one of my favorite scenes from Lost. When Locke found the dying Eko in the woods, Eko whispered something in Locke's ear as he died, when asked what it was, Locke replied, "we're next".

GREAT SCENE! Very scary stuff!



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03-03-10, 04:15 PM (EST)
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30. "RE: Smokey's victims"
Well, the spiders that paralized Nikki and Paulo were manifestations of MIB.

They were? I completely missed that.

Although, as you point out, the spiders only paralyzed Nikki and Paulo, didn't kill them. Technically, the people who killed them are the ones who buried them. I seem to recall Sawyer burying them.


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38. "RE: Smokey's victims"
That came out in a podcast Q&A.

And yes, N&P were actually killed by those who buried them thinking they were already dead.

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36. "RE: Smokey's victims"
LAST EDITED ON 03-03-10 AT 08:30 PM (EST)

I think as you said, the question of who Smokey CAN'T kill and that can't kill him is more important. Is it people who are "Candidates?"

The more I watched Season 1 last weekend, the more this whole thing as an ancient form of backgammon of sorts makes sense. And since Locke talking about backgammon was on the "scenes from last week" after that episode where he tells Walt about backgammon ("one of the oldest games know to man, one dark one light..".)it was obviously extremely important, I did a little wikipedia reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabula (the Zeno stuff is interesting) and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senet. I'm sure this was discussed long ago, and is still being discussed in LOST circles, but it's fun to read about the ancient games and leaders, and fill in names with some of our LOSTies.


-A Tribetastic Creation

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27. "Purgatory"
I know, I know....Darlton have said since season 1 that this is not Purgatory. But the more I learn about Jacob and Smokey and free will the more I think they are in an "In Between" place.

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34. "Their Prayers were Answered"
From Jacob's conversation with MIB we know that everyone on the island was brought by Jacob. We know from Dogen that he came on the island as a direct consequence of his wish that son comes back to life.

It seems to lead to the conclusion that everyone is on the island because their prayers were answered:
Jack wanted another chance to prove to his father he's got what it takes or simply talk to him again...
Kate wanted to be free...
John wanted to walk...
Sawyer wanted to kill Sawyer...
Hurley wanted to end the curse...
Rose wanted to live...
Ana, Charlie and Sayid wanted... to die?

They all got what they wanted.

(I know that leaves a ton of secondary characters but it wouldn't be the first show to neglect the edit of secondary characters!!)

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03-06-10, 01:52 PM (EST)
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45. "RE: Their Prayers were Answered"
>It seems to lead to the
>conclusion that everyone is on
>the island because their prayers
>were answered:

Maybe...or maybe they *NEEDED* their prayers answered because of Jacob's influence on their lives.

Based on the opening scene, we know that the alternate timeline is showing us what happens when the island is destroyed, and the LOSTies go on about their lives without Jacob's influence.

So, let's see how things turn out for them without Jacob's interference

>Jack wanted another chance to prove
>to his father he's got
>what it takes or simply
>talk to him again...

But, instead, he is able to make his peace, and realize that he can be a better father than his father was.

>Kate wanted to be free...

Apparently, she is.

>John wanted to walk...

He made his peace with not being able, to the point that he passed on a free consult with Jack. He's got a good job that he enjoys, and he's about to be happily married.

>Sawyer wanted to kill Sawyer...

We don't know yet what happened to Sawyer.

>Hurley wanted to end the curse...

He did, because he never used the numbers. He even said he's a very lucky guy.

>Rose wanted to live...

Again, she made her peace, apparently with her disease, and she seems well adjusted.

>Ana, Charlie

again, we don't know yet what happens to them.

>Sayid wanted... to die?

No, Sayid simply wanted to get back to the love of his life, Nadia. And that's where he has ended up.

All of this is why I think that Jacob is the bad guy in all this. Look at their lives after Jacob's influence, and compare it to their lives after everything is undone.

I think that MIB is trapped on the island like everyone else, and he has found his loophole. He was able to "kill" Jacob, and now he's going to undo everything that Jacob did.

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03-06-10, 08:47 PM (EST)
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46. "RE: Their Prayers were Answered"
"All of this is why I think that Jacob is the bad guy in all this."

From their exchange in S5 finale, we know that Jacob wants the best for the Losties while MIB has only selfish desires. Jacob thinks humans can live without wars, destruction and corruption. MIB sees only our dark side.

If one is playing God and the other the Devil, then Jacob is "god". The question becomes: Is God good? Well, we know Jacob has ulterior motives. That's why I say most viewers may not like the outcome!


"Look at their lives after Jacob's influence, and compare it to their lives after everything is undone."

The flashbacks showed us that all the Losties were miserable but they had dreams. I see the flash-sideways, the world without Jacob, as a world without god. Look at what you've just described: All our Losties are content, they have mostly what they want but are they happy? They seem to have abandoned their dreams and are just going through the motions.


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03-07-10, 09:35 AM (EST)
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48. "RE: Their Prayers were Answered"
LAST EDITED ON 03-07-10 AT 09:39 AM (EST)

>From their exchange in S5 finale,
>we know that Jacob wants
>the best for the Losties
>while MIB has only selfish
>desires. Jacob thinks humans can
>live without wars, destruction and
>corruption. MIB sees only our
>dark side.

How did you get that from their exchange?

>The flashbacks showed us that all
>the Losties were miserable but
>they had dreams.

But, how much of hat misery is directly related to Jacob's influence? Look at Sawyer, for example. He's a kid, and he gets this idea of revenge against Sawyer in his head. Just as he's crumpling up his letter, Jacob shows up and puts him back on the path. How is that being a "good guy?"

>I see the flash-sideways, the world without
>Jacob, as a world without god. Look at what you've
>just described: All our Losties are content, they
>have mostly what they want but are
>they happy? They seem to have abandoned their
>dreams and are just going through the
>motions.

I guess this is where we disagree? Look at Locke, for example. After Jacob's influence, he was determined to prove to the world that he could do anything a walking person could do, even though that wasn't the case. He even went so far as to go to Australia to go on a walkabout, which was completely impossible. And, when he couldn't go, he lost it, he snapped.

Now, look at his life without Jacob's influence. Sure, he may have given up on his dreams of being able to do everything that a walking person can do, but he is apparently happily in love, about to marry, and has made peace with the fact that he is in a wheelchair. He now knows that, while he is physically limited, he can still be a productive member of society, and can live a happy life.

How did Jacob's influence make his life better? It brought him torment and anguish on an island that eventually lead to his suicide.

Lastly, there is the whole TV show part of this...This show has been built from the beginning as a show that leads you down a path that is 100% crystal clear, only to show you that what you've believed so far is wrong.
--We see mysterious people on the island who look like hermits, and just when we get to the point that we're about to find out what they've been doing for so long, we are told that they aren't hermits, they are in costume. Then, we find out that there *ARE* mysterious people on the island.
--We watch Jack's past as an alcoholic, pill-popping doctor who's life is in shambles...and then we find out that it is his FUTURE, not his past.
--We are driven down the path that if the losties return to the island, that Locke will be resurrected, and that happens. Then we find out that he wasn't resurrected at all.

But, now that we're being happily drven down the highway of Jacob is good, MIB is evil...you expect there isn't a twist coming?

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03-07-10, 01:18 PM (EST)
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49. "RE: Their Prayers were Answered"
"MIB: I don't have to ask. You brought them here. Still trying to prove me wrong, aren't you?

Jacob: You are wrong.

MIB: Am I? They come. They fight. They destroy. They corrupt. It always ends the same.

Jacob: It only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress." //

I heard the contempt in MIB's words, the hope in Jacob's.

"How did Jacob's influence make his (Locke's) life better? It brought him torment and anguish on an island that eventually lead to his suicide."

The "flash-sideways-Locke" seems happier but haven't you noticed that he's still very troubled. He does nothing about it. Worse, he doesn't believe in miracles anymore. He's abandoned hope. (and getting married doesn't always solve problems.)

As for the "Lostie-Locke" that killed himself, remember that happened AFTER Jacob had lost control of the island, as shown by his cabin being used by someone else. I've always thought that the incident caused by Desmond's failure to punch the numbers in time didn't only make the plane crash but enabled Smokey to counter Jacob's defenses and take possession of the island, forcing Jacob to hide in the foot of the statue.

Jacob brought the Losties to the island but what happened to them afterwards was done under Smokey's influence. He may have also influenced Ben and the Others without them knowing they weren't following Jacob's wishes anymore. It would explain why Walt, who may have been Jacob's best "candidate", turned out to be too much for MIB to handle so he told the Others to let him go.


As for the rest, yes I expect a twist but not because we are being told Jacob is good and MIB is evil. We are heading down a path showing that believing in God is what brought misery to mankind and I don't think American TV is ready to make that statement...at least, not ABC's sponsors.

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03-07-10, 02:43 PM (EST)
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50. "RE: Their Prayers were Answered"
>"MIB: I don't have to ask.
>You brought them here. Still
>trying to prove me wrong,
>aren't you?
>
>Jacob: You are wrong.
>
>MIB: Am I? They come. They
>fight. They destroy. They corrupt.
>It always ends the same.
>
>
>Jacob: It only ends once. Anything
>that happens before that is
>just progress."
//

I guess I interpret that differently. I see that as Jacob traps people on the island to prove his point that it can work, and MIB is saying that because they are humans, they are going to act the way humans do.


>I heard the contempt in MIB's
>words, the hope in Jacob's.

The only hope I see is Jacob's hope that he might be able to finally prove MIB wrong.

>The "flash-sideways-Locke" seems happier but haven't
>you noticed that he's still
>very troubled. He does nothing
>about it. Worse, he doesn't
>believe in miracles anymore. He's
>abandoned hope. (and getting married
>doesn't always solve problems.)

Sure he's troubled, he's in a wheelchair, and he just realized that he can't do everything that a person who can walk can do. Who wouldn't be troubled? And, I wasn't saying that getting married is going to solve his problems...but you can't deny that his relationship seems much healthier than it was with Jacob's influence.

>As for the "Lostie-Locke" that killed
>himself, remember that happened AFTER
>Jacob had lost control of
>the island, as shown by
>his cabin being used by
>someone else.

How did Locke know this? His last experience on the island was talking to Christian...and when Locke asked if he was Jacob, Christian said, "I can speak for him." Why would Locke think that Jacob has lost control of the island?

>It would explain why Walt,
>who may have been Jacob's
>best "candidate", turned out to
>be too much for MIB
>to handle so he told
>the Others to let him
>go.

I think that had more to do with the actor growing older, and not being able to play a young child well into his teenage years.

>As for the rest, yes I
>expect a twist but not
>because we are being told
>Jacob is good and MIB
>is evil. We are heading
>down a path showing that
>believing in God is what
>brought misery to mankind and
>I don't think American TV
>is ready to make that
>statement...at least, not ABC's sponsors.

So, then what possible twist could there be? We are heading down a path showing that believing in God is what brought misery to mankind, and finally, when God's followers win the war, everyone's life goes back to being ok....That's not much of a twist. Having the devil win, and everyone's life end up ok...well that doesn't seem like a rewarding message...

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03-07-10, 04:40 PM (EST)
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51. "RE: Their Prayers were Answered"
I don't know how the twist will play but I expect that it all comes down to Jacob and MIB. Their interactions have influenced the events outside the island: Look at what Widemore and Dharma have done. So, with that in mind, I think that the game between Jacob and MIB is more than just proving a point but saving all of mankind. We are all Lost if it doesn't turn out right or something like that. Maybe MIB wants it to end, wants to leave the island so that he can spread the "disease" of the island, the inability to have children, to the outside world.

Yes, of course, technically, the actor playing Walt had to go but Ben's: "He was more than we could handle" or something like that has to be explained at least indirectly. I haven't read anything that explains it except the possibility I brought up that MIB doesn't want to deal with Jacob's #1 candidate.

(Did we see who was #1 in the cave or in the lighthouse? That question just reminded me of another popular, weird television program from long ago!)

Why would Locke need to know whether or not he was acting under Jacob's or MIB's influence. The Devil can take on many forms so Locke could have been fooled.

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03-08-10, 01:06 AM (EST)
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52. "RE: Their Prayers were Answered"
#2 is Lacombe.

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Jacob%27s_candidates

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03-08-10, 11:30 AM (EST)
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53. "RE: Their Prayers were Answered"
>Yes, of course, technically, the actor
>playing Walt had to go
>but Ben's: "He was more
>than we could handle" or
>something like that has to
>be explained at least indirectly.

I wouldn't count on them evening mentioning Walt again, or explaining that comment. I hope they don't, since they have enough other things to answer in the next 12 hours.

>Why would Locke need to know
>whether or not he was
>acting under Jacob's or MIB's
>influence. The Devil can take
>on many forms so Locke
>could have been fooled.

I said that Locke's life was so bad in the original timeline that he ended up committing suicide. You said that was after Jacob lost control of the island. I was simply saying that Locke did not know anything about Jacob at the time, so that wasn't relevant to his suicide. He was simply a bitter man, who continued to fail at everything he tried, and he had enough. That was hardly a better life than the one where he realized that he is limited, but he realizes that it doesn't mean he has to be miserable or a failure. He can still be a successful, happy person, even with his disability.

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03-08-10, 07:09 PM (EST)
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54. "RE: Their Prayers were Answered"
First, Brassfan, I want to say that I'm not trying to prove anything to you by shoving it at you or even continuing an argument just to argue but that you are helping me shape my thoughts and theories like frodis, FP and others have done. Thanks for that.

You write:

"I was simply saying that Locke did not know anything about Jacob at the time"

And I'm saying he didn't have to know about Jacob or MIB to have been influenced by one or the other. Since it was Christian who guided him, that Christian was in the cabin presumably after Jacob had been forced out of it, that Christian and MIB have both been with Claire, that Christian is a tool, then it stands to reason that MIB was directing Locke, not Jacob.

I do wish they address Walt because that is one of the biggest questions I have besides MIB and Jacob. Practically everything else is trivial or will fall in place when those questions are answered.

I don't know how it could be done but Walt being the one Jacob wanted to see return to the island would be immensely more awesome than just a fake to get Jack to the lighthouse, much more than Widemore and even more than Desmond returning.

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03-08-10, 11:44 PM (EST)
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55. "RE: Their Prayers were Answered"
>First, Brassfan, I want to say
>that I'm not trying to
>prove anything to you by
>shoving it at you or
>even continuing an argument just
>to argue but that you
>are helping me shape my
>thoughts and theories like frodis,
>FP and others have done.
>Thanks for that.

Exactly why I continue these discussions when we so obviously disagree. It helps both of us continue to work out our theories.

>You write:
>
>"I was simply saying that Locke
>did not know anything about
>Jacob at the time"

>
>And I'm saying he didn't have
>to know about Jacob or
>MIB to have been influenced
>by one or the other.

I think you're completely missing the point of my statement that Locke didn't know anything about Jacob. I'm not saying that in an effort to make a point about what happened to Locke.

It was a reply to your comment, nothing more.

ME: Locke's life was so bad due to Jacob's influence that he committed suicide
YOU: But, that was after Jacob lost control of the island.
ME: How could that possibly be relevant to Locke's suicide, since he didn't know anything about Jacob losing control.

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03-09-10, 06:54 PM (EST)
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56. "RE: Their Prayers were Answered"
LAST EDITED ON 03-09-10 AT 07:45 PM (EST)

"-: Locke's life was so bad due to Jacob's influence that he committed suicide

-: But, that was after Jacob lost control of the island.

-: How could that possibly be relevant to Locke's suicide, since he didn't know anything about Jacob losing control."

OK, I'll try to be clearer: Locke wanted to be able to do whatever he wanted to do.

Jacob answered his prayers by bringing him to the island: Locke regained use of his legs and his miserable life finally had meaning. On the island he felt fulfilled; his mission was to save the world, no less.

Without Locke knowing, I agree, Jacob lost power and MIB took over and HE started influencing Locke, eventually forcing him off the island where his mission directly led to his suicide attempt. But Locke's death was MIB's plan all along: Locke was his loophole. Jacob isn't responsible for Locke's downward spiral, MIB is. MIB is the evil one.

Now the flash sideways aren't just a world without Jacob, they are also a world without MIB: The whole island was destroyed.

It could be that the question is: Is it better to have hoped and lost than never to have hoped at all? We're insignificant ants anyway but isn't it our dreams that make us a bit taller?


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03-09-10, 08:48 PM (EST)
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57. "RE: Their Prayers were Answered"
But when was the island destroyed? And how?

If 815 never crashed on the island none of the timejumps happened, Sayid didn't shoot Benchild, Benchild never got Othered, no one warned Miles' father to begin an evacuation, Benchild and Milesbaby and Charlottechild were on the island when Juliet wasn't there to detonate a nuclear bomb during the incident.

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03-09-10, 11:31 PM (EST)
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58. "RE: Their Prayers were Answered"
LAST EDITED ON 03-10-10 AT 07:53 AM (EST)

You are asking the wrong question: It isn't when? It's Where? The answer is: In another, parallel universe.

ETA: That's why I think they call them flash "sideways".

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39. "RE: Discussion Thread Ep. 6.06: "Sundown""
About the lullaby, nobody mentioned this so I will. It should be "Catch A Falling Star" - which is the only memory she has of her father, of Christian singing it to her. She wanted the adoptive couple to sing it to Aaron. (Did Kate sing it?) Anyway, Claire has been shown fixated on the lullaby since we first learned about her.

Which reminds me, that Rousseau was hung up on her music box. She let Sayid go because he fixed it. And it reminded her of Alex, her lost child.

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