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"Another mass shooting ... this time in CT"
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PepeLePew13 24731 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"

12-14-12, 01:56 PM (EST)
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"Another mass shooting ... this time in CT"
This one is a school shooting in Connecticut with the latest reports saying 27 are dead, including children and the shooter.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/World/2012/12/14/20431771.html

Perhaps my perception is off, but it seems to be that there is a greater frequency of mass shootings taking place of late. An elementary school of all places.

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  Table of Contents

  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
 RE: Another mass shooting ... this ... dabo 12-14-12 1
 RE: Another mass shooting ... this ... Estee 12-14-12 2
   RE: Another mass shooting ... this ... PepeLePew13 12-14-12 3
       RE: Another mass shooting ... this ... samboohoo 12-14-12 5
 RE: Another mass shooting ... this ... samboohoo 12-14-12 4
   RE: Another mass shooting ... this ... dabo 12-14-12 7
   RE: Another mass shooting ... this ... cahaya 12-14-12 8
       RE: Another mass shooting ... this ... samboohoo 12-14-12 14
           RE: Another mass shooting ... this ... PepeLePew13 12-14-12 16
               RE: Another mass shooting ... this ... HobbsofMI 12-14-12 49
                   RE: Another mass shooting ... this ... PepeLePew13 12-14-12 53
                       RE: Another mass shooting ... this ... michel 12-15-12 62
 RE: Another mass shooting ... this ... zombiebaby 12-14-12 6
   RE: Another mass shooting ... this ... samboohoo 12-14-12 12
       Two home so far zombiebaby 12-14-12 18
 RE: Another mass shooting ... this ... Sunny_Bunny 12-14-12 9
 RE: Another mass shooting ... this ... Molaholic 12-14-12 10
 RE: Another mass shooting ... this ... Estee 12-14-12 11
   RE: Another mass shooting ... this ... zombiebaby 12-14-12 13
       RE: Another mass shooting ... this ... WyoGuy44 12-14-12 15
       RE: Another mass shooting ... this ... frodis 12-14-12 19
   Mis-identification Snidget 12-14-12 32
       RE: Mis-identification Estee 12-14-12 35
           RE: Mis-identification cahaya 12-14-12 39
               RE: Mis-identification Estee 12-14-12 42
 RE: Another mass shooting ... this ... VisionQuest 12-14-12 17
 President orders all flags lowered ... Estee 12-14-12 20
 RE: Another mass shooting ... this ... Estee 12-14-12 21
 At the school: twenty children, si... Estee 12-14-12 22
   RE: At the school: twenty children... Tummy 12-14-12 24
       RE: At the school: twenty children... Estee 12-14-12 25
       RE: At the school: twenty children... PepeLePew13 12-14-12 33
           RE: At the school: twenty children... Tummy 12-15-12 57
 Question to other parents: PepeLePew13 12-14-12 23
   RE: Question to other parents: frodis 12-14-12 26
   RE: Question to other parents: PepeLePew13 12-14-12 29
 RE: Another mass shooting ... this ... Max Headroom 12-14-12 27
   RE: Another mass shooting ... this ... Snidget 12-14-12 30
       RE: Another mass shooting ... this ... cahaya 12-14-12 43
           RE: Another mass shooting ... this ... PepeLePew13 12-14-12 45
 Just heard about this moonbaby 12-14-12 28
   RE: Just heard about this Snidget 12-14-12 31
 More details sort out. Estee 12-14-12 34
 Who Had Mick Huckabee Snidget 12-14-12 36
   RE: Who Had Mick Huckabee Estee 12-14-12 38
       RE: Who Had Mick Huckabee cahaya 12-14-12 41
           RE: Who Had Mick Huckabee Estee 12-14-12 44
               RE: Who Had Mick Huckabee cahaya 12-14-12 48
               RE: Who Had Mick Huckabee michel 12-15-12 63
           RE: Who Had Mick Huckabee dabo 12-14-12 52
   RE: Who Had Mick Huckabee VisionQuest 12-14-12 40
       RE: Who Had Mick Huckabee Estee 12-14-12 47
           More AFA fun. Estee 01-02-13 161
               Good God dabo 01-02-13 162
                   RE: Good God Estee 01-03-13 165
                       RE: Good God dabo 01-03-13 166
               RE: More AFA fun. Snidget 01-02-13 163
                   RE: More AFA fun. Estee 01-03-13 164
       It Gets Worse kidflash212 12-16-12 75
           RE: It Gets Worse Snidget 12-16-12 76
           RE: It Gets Worse Karchita 12-16-12 84
           RE: It Gets Worse agman 12-17-12 98
           Anonymous attacks. Estee 12-18-12 105
 At least two of the weapons registe... Estee 12-14-12 37
   RE: At least two of the weapons reg... cahaya 12-14-12 46
 Odd timing Chinese School Attack Snidget 12-14-12 50
   RE: Odd timing Chinese School Attac... kidflash212 12-16-12 79
 RE: Another mass shooting ... this ... VisionQuest 12-14-12 51
   RE: Another mass shooting ... this ... cahaya 12-15-12 56
 Syfy pulls Haven Episode Snidget 12-14-12 54
   RE: Syfy pulls Haven Episode dabo 12-14-12 55
 RE: Another mass shooting ... this ... CTgirl 12-15-12 58
   RE: Another mass shooting ... this ... jbug 12-15-12 60
       RE: Another mass shooting ... this ... PepeLePew13 12-15-12 61
           To help stop it zombiebaby 12-15-12 64
               RE: To help stop it Starshine 12-15-12 67
           RE: Another mass shooting ... this ... jbug 12-15-12 68
               RE: Another mass shooting ... this ... PepeLePew13 12-15-12 69
                   RE: Another mass shooting ... this ... Snidget 12-16-12 73
                       North Korea foonermints 12-16-12 80
                           RE: North Korea Snidget 12-16-12 81
                               As Long foonermints 12-16-12 82
               RE: Another mass shooting ... this ... michel 12-16-12 70
                   RE: Another mass shooting ... this ... dabo 12-16-12 71
                       RE: Another mass shooting ... this ... Snidget 12-16-12 72
                           RE: Another mass shooting ... this ... kidflash212 12-16-12 74
                               RE: Another mass shooting ... this ... dabo 12-16-12 85
                                   RE: Another mass shooting ... this ... Snidget 12-17-12 89
                                       RE: Another mass shooting ... this ... dabo 12-17-12 90
                                           RE: Another mass shooting ... this ... Snidget 12-17-12 92
                           RE: Another mass shooting ... this ... PepeLePew13 12-16-12 77
                               RE: Another mass shooting ... this ... HobbsofMI 12-17-12 88
               RE: Another mass shooting ... this ... Estee 12-16-12 78
 RE: Another mass shooting ... this ... bullzeye 12-15-12 59
 H.S. kid in OK arrested in bomb/sho... HobbsofMI 12-15-12 65
 RE: Another mass shooting ... this ... PepeLePew13 12-15-12 66
 RE: Another mass shooting ... this ... kingfish 12-16-12 83
 The dead. Estee 12-16-12 86
 Hunger Games trigirl 12-17-12 87
 RE: Another mass shooting ... this zombiebaby 12-17-12 91
   RE: Another mass shooting ... this CTgirl 12-17-12 93
   RE: Another mass shooting ... this dabo 12-17-12 94
   I liked this article... PepeLePew13 12-17-12 97
   RE: Another mass shooting ... this agman 12-17-12 99
 If it were up to me. Karchita 12-17-12 95
   RE: If it were up to me. byoffer 12-17-12 96
 Swoop Block! HobbsofMI 12-17-12 100
 Logistical question Snidget 12-17-12 101
   RE: Logistical question cahaya 12-18-12 102
       RE: Logistical question Snidget 12-18-12 103
           RE: Logistical question aethelstan 12-18-12 104
               RE: Logistical question cahaya 12-19-12 109
                   RE: Logistical question newsomewayne 01-09-13 167
                       RE: Logistical question dabo 01-09-13 168
                           RE: Logistical question newsomewayne 01-09-13 169
                       RE: Logistical question Starshine 01-09-13 170
                           RE: Logistical question newsomewayne 01-09-13 171
                               RE: Logistical question AyaK 01-10-13 172
                               RE: Logistical question Starshine 01-10-13 173
                                   RE: Logistical question Estee 01-10-13 174
                                   RE: Logistical question AyaK 01-10-13 175
                                       RE: Logistical question cahaya 01-10-13 178
                                           RE: Logistical question dabo 01-10-13 179
                                               RE: Logistical question cahaya 01-11-13 180
                                                   RE: Logistical question foonermints 01-11-13 182
                                                       RE: Logistical question cahaya 01-11-13 183
                                                           RE: Logistical question foonermints 01-11-13 184
                                                               RE: Logistical question kingfish 01-11-13 188
                                       RE: Logistical question Starshine 01-11-13 185
                                           RE: Logistical question kingfish 01-11-13 187
                                               RE: Logistical question Starshine 01-11-13 189
                                                   RE: Logistical question kingfish 01-11-13 190
                                                       RE: Logistical question cahaya 01-11-13 192
                                                           RE: Logistical question kingfish 01-11-13 193
                                                               RE: Logistical question dabo 01-12-13 194
                                                       RE: Logistical question kidflash212 01-12-13 199
                                                           RE: Logistical question kingfish 01-12-13 200
                                   RE: Logistical question newsomewayne 01-11-13 181
                                       RE: Logistical question Starshine 01-11-13 186
                                           RE: Logistical question newsomewayne 01-11-13 191
                                               RE: Logistical question Starshine 01-12-13 201
                                                   RE: Logistical question newsomewayne 01-14-13 203
                                                       RE: Logistical question dabo 01-15-13 204
                                       In the interests of saving time. Estee 01-12-13 196
           RE: Logistical question HobbsofMI 12-18-12 106
               RE: Logistical question Snidget 12-18-12 107
                   RE: Logistical question cahaya 12-19-12 108
                       RE: Logistical question kingfish 12-19-12 110
                           RE: Logistical question cahaya 12-19-12 111
                       RE: Logistical question byoffer 12-19-12 112
                           RE: Logistical question cahaya 12-19-12 113
                               RE: Logistical question jbug 12-19-12 114
                                   RE: Logistical question cahaya 12-19-12 116
 RE: Another mass shooting ... this ... jbug 12-19-12 115
 More idiots, more agendas. Estee 12-19-12 117
   RE: More idiots, more agendas. Snidget 12-19-12 118
       RE: More idiots, more agendas. cahaya 12-19-12 119
           RE: More idiots, more agendas. Snidget 12-19-12 120
 Join the Army, see the world... Estee 12-20-12 121
 NRA press conference Snidget 12-21-12 122
   RE: NRA press conference PepeLePew13 12-21-12 123
       RE: NRA press conference Snidget 12-21-12 124
           RE: NRA press conference kingfish 12-21-12 125
       Translation cahaya 12-21-12 130
   RE: NRA press conference Starshine 12-21-12 126
       RE: NRA press conference Estee 12-21-12 127
       RE: NRA press conference Snidget 12-21-12 128
           RE: NRA press conference Estee 12-21-12 129
       RE: NRA press conference cahaya 12-21-12 132
   RE: NRA press conference HobbsofMI 12-21-12 131
       RE: NRA press conference Snidget 12-21-12 133
           Guess Who cahaya 12-22-12 146
   Tabloid reactions. Estee 12-22-12 147
 The National Enquirer article. Estee 12-21-12 134
   RE: The National Enquirer article. cahaya 12-21-12 141
       RE: The National Enquirer article. Snidget 12-21-12 144
           RE: The National Enquirer article. cahaya 12-21-12 145
 Marlton NJ to place armed guards in... Estee 12-21-12 135
   RE: Marlton NJ to place armed guard... Snidget 12-21-12 136
       RE: Marlton NJ to place armed guard... Estee 12-21-12 137
           RE: Marlton NJ to place armed guard... Snidget 12-21-12 138
               RE: Marlton NJ to place armed guard... Estee 12-21-12 139
                   RE: Marlton NJ to place armed guard... HobbsofMI 12-21-12 140
                       RE: Marlton NJ to place armed guard... Snidget 12-21-12 142
                           RE: Marlton NJ to place armed guard... PepeLePew13 12-21-12 143
 Charlotte Allen Snidget 12-22-12 148
 Firefighters shot at home fire, Web... Snidget 12-24-12 149
   RE: Firefighters shot at home fire,... Estee 12-25-12 150
       RE: Firefighters shot at home fire,... cahaya 12-25-12 151
           RE: Firefighters shot at home fire,... Snidget 12-25-12 152
 NY paper publishes hand gun permit ... Snidget 12-26-12 153
   RE: NY paper publishes hand gun per... PepeLePew13 12-26-12 154
       RE: NY paper publishes hand gun per... Snidget 12-26-12 155
 Gun control? AyaK 12-26-12 156
   RE: Gun control? Estee 12-26-12 157
 Sheriff Arpaio's solution dabo 12-28-12 158
   RE: Sheriff Arpaio's solution Estee 12-28-12 159
       RE: Sheriff Arpaio's solution Snidget 12-28-12 160
 Another shooting ... this time in C... jbug 01-10-13 176
   RE: Another shooting ... this time ... dabo 01-10-13 177
 Can we please to get the Snidget 01-12-13 195
   The other option is a Estee 01-12-13 197
   Can we also please... kidflash212 01-12-13 198
       Wasn' that Sun Tzu? foonermints 01-12-13 202
 Is the next one their fault? Estee 01-15-13 205
   An explanation newsomewayne 01-15-13 206
       RE: An explanation cahaya 01-15-13 207
           RE: An explanation newsomewayne 01-15-13 211
               RE: An explanation Estee 01-15-13 213
       You know they are. Estee 01-15-13 208
           RE: You know they are. cahaya 01-15-13 209
               RE: You know they are. Estee 01-15-13 210
           RE: You know they are. newsomewayne 01-15-13 212
 Naturally. Estee 01-16-13 214
   RE: Naturally. kingfish 01-16-13 215
 Second-grader brings gun to school ... Estee 01-17-13 216
 HuffPo: Father of victim "heckled"... PepeLePew13 01-29-13 217
   RE: HuffPo: Father of victim "heck... dabo 01-29-13 218
       Heckle away AyaK 01-29-13 219
           RE: Heckle away dabo 01-29-13 220
               RE: Heckle away PepeLePew13 01-29-13 221
                   RE: Heckle away AyaK 01-29-13 222
                       RE: Heckle away cahaya 01-29-13 223
                       RE: Heckle away dabo 01-30-13 224
                           RE: Heckle away AyaK 01-30-13 225
                   NBC dishonesty AyaK 01-30-13 226
                       RE: NBC dishonesty dabo 01-30-13 227
                           RE: NBC dishonesty AyaK 01-30-13 230
 Arizona practices ironic timing. Estee 01-30-13 228
   RE: Arizona practices ironic timing... Starshine 01-30-13 229
       RE: Arizona practices ironic timing... AyaK 01-30-13 231
           RE: Arizona practices ironic timing... Estee 01-30-13 233
               RE: Arizona practices ironic timing... cahaya 01-31-13 235
       RE: Arizona practices ironic timing... Estee 01-30-13 232
           Spackle foonermints 01-30-13 234
               RE: Spackle cahaya 01-31-13 236
 More Mental Illness kidflash212 02-03-13 237
   RE: More Mental Illness cahaya 02-03-13 238
       RE: More Mental Illness kidflash212 02-03-13 239
           RE: More Mental Illness Starshine 02-03-13 240
               RE: More Mental Illness foonermints 02-03-13 241
                   RE: More Mental Illness Starshine 02-03-13 244
                       RE: More Mental Illness kidflash212 02-03-13 245
                       It's a "friend of a friend" thing foonermints 02-03-13 250
                   RE: More Mental Illness Snidget 02-03-13 247
           RE: More Mental Illness cahaya 02-03-13 243
               RE: More Mental Illness Snidget 02-03-13 246
   RE: More Mental Illness HobbsofMI 02-03-13 242
   Al a Mental dabo 02-03-13 249
       RE: Al a Mental Snidget 02-03-13 251
   Child safe: JLDykes dead. Estee 02-05-13 252
       RE: Child safe: JLDykes dead. kingfish 02-05-13 253
           RE: Child safe: JLDykes dead. cahaya 02-06-13 255
       RE: Child safe: JLDykes dead. Snidget 02-05-13 254
       RE: Child safe: JLDykes dead. dabo 02-06-13 256
 *darkly thinking* Snidget 02-03-13 248
   RE: *darkly thinking* cahaya 02-06-13 257
 Spreadsheet. Estee 03-18-13 258
   RE: Spreadsheet. cahaya 03-18-13 259
       RE: Spreadsheet. Estee 03-18-13 260
           RE: Spreadsheet. cahaya 03-18-13 262
       RE: Spreadsheet. PepeLePew13 03-18-13 261
 NRA Solution dabo 04-03-13 263
   RE: NRA Solution kingfish 04-03-13 264
       RE: NRA Solution Snidget 04-03-13 265
           RE: NRA Solution cahaya 04-03-13 266
           RE: NRA Solution dabo 04-03-13 267
               RE: NRA Solution Snidget 04-03-13 268
                   RE: NRA Solution dabo 04-04-13 269
                       Look foonermints 04-04-13 270
                       RE: NRA Solution Snidget 04-04-13 271
                           RE: NRA Solution kingfish 04-04-13 272
                   RE: NRA Solution PepeLePew13 04-04-13 274
   RE: NRA Solution HobbsofMI 04-04-13 273
       RE: NRA Solution kingfish 04-04-13 275
 Strange Bedfellows IceCat 04-12-13 276
 NC A&T on lockdown Snidget 04-12-13 277

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Messages in this topic

dabo 25344 desperate attention whore postings
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12-14-12, 02:03 PM (EST)
Click to EMail dabo Click to send private message to dabo Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
1. "RE: Another mass shooting ... this time in CT"
Horrible, just horrible. The news-sites are still gathering facts and updating, at least 27 dead maybe more, including 18 children.

http://news.msn.com/us/at-least-27-dead-in-shooting-at-conn-elementary-school?gt1=51501

Two suspects now from what I'm hearing on CNN, one dead and one taken away by police.

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Estee 55195 desperate attention whore postings
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12-14-12, 02:17 PM (EST)
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2. "RE: Another mass shooting ... this time in CT"
Waiting on the police briefing now. At one point, the victim count was a single man shot in the foot: it took hours before the reports of targeted children came in. I wish they never had.

Initially, I thought this was backyard: there's a Sandy Hook in New Jersey.

News is now discussing the school's security policy: sounds like nearly all doors were locked during the day and visitors had to sign in and show ID at the office. Which just means the first round of fire may have been in the office.

Parents rushing towards the school to find their children. To find out if they have to bury them.

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PepeLePew13 24731 desperate attention whore postings
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12-14-12, 02:25 PM (EST)
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3. "RE: Another mass shooting ... this time in CT"
One report I saw said that three adults (parents?) rushed toward the school to check on things and two of them were shot.

I really don't understand using young children as a pawn to carry through whatever vendetta a shooter might have. This is the worst fear possible for a parent - you send your kids to school thinking they're in the safest possible place for them to spend a quality day of learning while in the care of school staff.

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samboohoo 17076 desperate attention whore postings
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12-14-12, 02:30 PM (EST)
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5. "RE: Another mass shooting ... this time in CT"
I just heard a report that there was a volunteer parent at the school. She was in a meeting with 7 others. They heard a pop, pop, pop in the hall. Three people went into the hall from that room, and only one returned.

She and others called 911. She never saw the shooter. Says she heard at least 100 rounds.

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samboohoo 17076 desperate attention whore postings
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12-14-12, 02:27 PM (EST)
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4. "RE: Another mass shooting ... this time in CT"
This is absolutely heartbreaking and devastating. I just don't understand how something like this can happen.

I have friends in CT. None are affected directly by this. One friend lives 20 minutes from this site.

At my son's school, you have to be buzzed in. I don't know if there is a camera at the door. Most parents are recognized by the staff early on. I can't tell you how many times I've gone and seen a parent come to pick up a child, and the staff just knows you. There is also a police officer stationed in the office of our school. He is armed.

These are only small comforts. You never really know what is going on in the mind of another person.


Samboobree, brought to life by Arkie


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dabo 25344 desperate attention whore postings
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12-14-12, 02:41 PM (EST)
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7. "RE: Another mass shooting ... this time in CT"
Even though both my children are now at college, this seems like an odd situation to me as well. Every time I had to pick them up or drop something off for them at their public schools during the school day, doors were locked and the only place I could go was the front office, where I always had to pass by an armed police officer on duty.

Anyway, CNN is now reporting a 20-year-old shooter dead at the scene and another suspect taken away in custody, as many as 100 rounds fired.

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cahaya 18904 desperate attention whore postings
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12-14-12, 02:43 PM (EST)
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8. "RE: Another mass shooting ... this time in CT"
My daughter's school is also locked during the day and parents need to buzz in with a video-camera at the door. However, there is no police presence in the school. I can imagine how costly that would be, to have police at each school, every day.

I manage security lockdown drills here at my university and we're conducting our next drill on Monday, perhaps not a day too soon with the kind of deranged people who could do anything, anytime, without any warning.

My heartfelt thoughts and prayers go out to all of the families and children affected by this. It is indeed heartbreaking news.

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samboohoo 17076 desperate attention whore postings
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12-14-12, 03:29 PM (EST)
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14. "RE: Another mass shooting ... this time in CT"
I don't know the cost. Whatever it is, it's more than worth it. I don't know if it is even standard policy everywhere here. I think it is in our county. In all of our schools.
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PepeLePew13 24731 desperate attention whore postings
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12-14-12, 03:45 PM (EST)
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16. "RE: Another mass shooting ... this time in CT"
Here in my area, there's no police presence whatsoever, there's no security systems to pass by at our kids' schools, nothing is locked down. When I go to drop off the boys at daycare in the school's gym, I just walk in and go through the halls past the office to the gym with nothing but 'hellos' to the school custodian and the usual gaggle of teachers getting ready for their classes. It's *that* easy for someone to just stroll in and decide to take over a classroom if their whims dictated just so.
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HobbsofMI 15959 desperate attention whore postings
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12-14-12, 09:22 PM (EST)
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49. "RE: Another mass shooting ... this time in CT"
So do our schools need to be max security prisons now?


sig Syren, bouncy by IceCat, bobble head by Tribephyl, and snoglobe by agman

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PepeLePew13 24731 desperate attention whore postings
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12-14-12, 10:04 PM (EST)
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53. "RE: Another mass shooting ... this time in CT"
No, I was just comparing the differences between our schools up here and the ones being mentioned on here so far - a real sobering thought for me how easy it is for someone to just stroll into my kids' school if I can do it so easily myself without being seen.

It's a much larger societal problem than just making access to schools easier or tougher.

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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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12-15-12, 04:06 PM (EST)
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62. "RE: Another mass shooting ... this time in CT"
it is a societal problem and there is only one solution: REMOVE THE GUNS!
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12-14-12, 02:40 PM (EST)
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6. "RE: Another mass shooting ... this time in CT"
I just want to go get my kids right now. Like Boo we have to be buzzed in. I was listening to the early reports and it did not seem so bad. Once the reports of the toll came in I just sobbed. Tears are still streaming.

How do you talk to your kids about this? I have 3 in elementary school right now. I know chances are so slim that it can happen to your school but you want them to listen to adults in drill situations yet you want them to feel safe at school.

I feel so deeply for those poor parents. They sent their babies off to a place they thought was safe, where they could be kids. How many of them had typical early morning struggles like we all do getting them off to school today? This morning my 4th grader was complaining he was tired and did not want to go. After much bickering he was on his way. How many in CT did that this morning and now they won't see them again?

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12-14-12, 03:22 PM (EST)
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12. "RE: Another mass shooting ... this time in CT"
I have the same thoughts and emotions right now. I am just a mess. All I can think is that these are someone's babies, and it crushes my heart.

Talking to your kids. I am saddened when Conner comes home and tells me they had an "intruder drill" at school.

I am simply waiting for him to get off of the bus.

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12-14-12, 03:58 PM (EST)
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18. "Two home so far"
My 4th and 5th grader off the bus. Talking non-stop about I don't know what. I could not stop the tears welling up and thinking of the parents that don't get this today or ever again.
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12-14-12, 03:06 PM (EST)
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9. "RE: Another mass shooting ... this time in CT"
LAST EDITED ON 12-14-12 AT 03:07 PM (EST)

I was crying too. I was remembering when I was in school and there were no fences, 2 bouncers and nothing to be frightened about other than the bullies. Then I thought of my sons when we lived in a small mountain community where no one locked the doors and having them walk to school didn't phase any of us in the least. (keep in mind, both my sons are under 30, so this wasn't all that long ago.)

Then I think of my two grandchildren - who have to grow up in this messed up world where there doesn't seem to be anywhere that they can feel safe.

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12-14-12, 03:16 PM (EST)
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10. "RE: Another mass shooting ... this time in CT"
There are no words for this. I have cousin living in CT, not sure how close he is to this. He's got a couple of kids in this age group so I'm sure this is an anxious time for him.

Best thoughts to all involved -- parents, friends and families forced to endure the unendurable.

Kids will be getting some extra tight hugs tonight all across the country.

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Estee 55195 desperate attention whore postings
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12-14-12, 03:18 PM (EST)
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11. "RE: Another mass shooting ... this time in CT"
CNN has tentatively identified the murderer as Ryan Lanza.

There are more Ryan Lanzas in the world than I ever would have suspected.

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12-14-12, 03:23 PM (EST)
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13. "RE: Another mass shooting ... this time in CT"
LAST EDITED ON 12-14-12 AT 03:24 PM (EST)

Just heard that his mother(or father) in Hoboken is dead in their home. She was a kindergarten teacher in this school. Shot in the office then went to his mom's classroom and opened fire.

He took out a kindergarten class. 5 year olds.

Those poor angels.

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WyoGuy44 97 desperate attention whore postings
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12-14-12, 03:38 PM (EST)
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15. "RE: Another mass shooting ... this time in CT"
Horrible just horrible! *thoughts and prayers to the families*
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frodis 4442 desperate attention whore postings
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12-14-12, 04:05 PM (EST)
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19. "RE: Another mass shooting ... this time in CT"
At what point does it stop being paranoia and start being just good sense to never want to leave my house (or let my children out of it) ever again?


I pick up my 5 year old from kindergarten in 10 minutes. Tears for those who can't do that today. Gah. It's stifling to even think about.


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Snidget 43862 desperate attention whore postings
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12-14-12, 07:46 PM (EST)
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32. "Mis-identification"
Looks like Ryan is the older brother, taken to be questioned (as well as the Dad).

Adam, the younger brother, appears to be the one that did the shooting.

*sigh*

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Estee 55195 desperate attention whore postings
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12-14-12, 07:58 PM (EST)
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35. "RE: Mis-identification"
On one of those wrong ID articles, there was commentary by -- a man claiming to be Ryan Lanza, complete with Facebook photo ID. He was protesting that it wasn't him, he'd been at work, he was on his way home right now. And I dismissed it as Yet Another Internet Troll trying to make people bleed by assuming the identity of a killer.

*sigh*

And now he's a man who just lost his mother and sibling while taking on a taint he'll never be able to shake.

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cahaya 18904 desperate attention whore postings
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12-14-12, 08:21 PM (EST)
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39. "RE: Mis-identification"
Apparently, the shooter carried his brother's ID and the ID was intially leaked to the media. Also, according to the brother, he hadn't seen him in years, so how did he acquire the ID? And (with enough motives already in question), why carry the ID other than to mislead law enforcement? Did he have a vendetta against his brother too?

*sigh* indeed.

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Estee 55195 desperate attention whore postings
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12-14-12, 08:27 PM (EST)
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42. "RE: Mis-identification"
We have differing stories here: the one I just saw claimed the police accidentally transposed the first names in a report and that's what got out -- no ID involved at all. If there was paperwork being carried, it could easily make the older Lanza look like he was involved to some degree -- or it could have been as easy as 'I think my place was broken into last night'. Still -- you're twenty-four, your brother is twenty, and you haven't seen him in years? Maybe something to do with the divorce, but the bell ringing on that one doesn't sound right.

Or he might have seen what was inside and gotten out of the blast radius.

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VisionQuest 1171 desperate attention whore postings
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12-14-12, 03:50 PM (EST)
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17. "RE: Another mass shooting ... this time in CT"
I don't know what to say. It's horrible. I feel so bad for those families. I don't understand how this happens and it makes me angry.
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Estee 55195 desperate attention whore postings
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12-14-12, 04:22 PM (EST)
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20. "President orders all flags lowered to half-staff."
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Estee 55195 desperate attention whore postings
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12-14-12, 04:29 PM (EST)
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21. "RE: Another mass shooting ... this time in CT"
More details shifting. Lanza's mother is still among the dead, but it now appears he killed her in the classroom. The body in Hoboken is now being reported as that of his brother. Sources say the family is divorced and the father resides somewhere in CT. The police won't comment on that last -- they're likely trying to track the father down and make sure he's alive.

No victim names released as the state is still trying to contact all the families. The principal and school psychologist are known to be among the adult dead. No word from the hospitals on the condition of wounded.

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Estee 55195 desperate attention whore postings
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12-14-12, 04:56 PM (EST)
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22. "At the school: twenty children, six adults."
This count does not include Lanza. It also does not include a second crime scene in the town, which the police officer leading the briefing suggested is connected to the attack -- the father? -- and it also doesn't take in the brother. Only one wounded has been mentioned, which is probably the vice-principal. The police say the shooting was confined to one part of the school, two rooms: based on what's come out, that's the kindergarten class and wherever those meetings were taking place, which had to be nearby.

Earlier, one CNN reporter mentioned the teacher-class ratio as roughly 1:22 or so across all five grades. (It's a K-4th school, about six hundred students.) The new implication came quickly.

Principal has just been identified: Dawn Hochsprung.

CNN interviewing someone who said he saw a child come out with 'a bloody face'. Maybe someone in the class did get out.

'Maybe' is all we've got.

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Tummy 3542 desperate attention whore postings
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12-14-12, 05:27 PM (EST)
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24. "RE: At the school: twenty children, six adults."
I keep hearing that his brother, Ryan Lanza, is being held for questioning.
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Estee 55195 desperate attention whore postings
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12-14-12, 05:34 PM (EST)
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25. "RE: At the school: twenty children, six adults."
I'm getting that his brother is dead and his roommates are being held for questioning. (They are not suspects: this is a 'What did you know?' interrogation.) But I don't know how many siblings are in the family. There may be a third male who happens to be one of the roommates.

People are claiming to have found Lanza's Facebook page. Most of the pictures seem to be coming from there. Naturally, there was at least one misfire first and somewhere, there's a man with the same name wondering why the world is wishing him brimstone.

Three weapons now. One rumor (claimed to have begun with an investigator) says the number of expended shells is incredibly high.

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PepeLePew13 24731 desperate attention whore postings
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12-14-12, 07:47 PM (EST)
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33. "RE: At the school: twenty children, six adults."
LAST EDITED ON 12-14-12 AT 07:49 PM (EST)

Yeah, CNN is now saying that the gunman is Adam Lanza, age 20. Ryan Lanza has been questioned, but no status of where he's at the moment.

Update: They just said that "it is believed that Ryan Lanza will be released some time soon."

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Tummy 3542 desperate attention whore postings
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12-15-12, 10:29 AM (EST)
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57. "RE: At the school: twenty children, six adults."
Same report I heard yesterday. We never did get a report that his brother was dead. Just his mother and early on they didn't know if she was dead at the school or was the person at the house. And that they couldn't locate his father.
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PepeLePew13 24731 desperate attention whore postings
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12-14-12, 05:25 PM (EST)
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23. "Question to other parents:"
How do you go about discussing this kind of thing with your children? Do we bring it up or wait and see if they say anything? Pippy will be 10 next month, he's at the age where he'll recognize a discussion going on in other places such as the news or through a link somewhere on the net, so he's bound to wonder about what's going on here.

One hour until I go get Poppy and him from the after-school daycare. I'm already thinking of how easy it could be for anyone to just walk into their school. Fortunately, each of the daycare units have a system to ensure that kids are going home with the right people and there is a sign-in, sign-out system, but obviously all that would be useless in stopping someone who is brandishing a gun.

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frodis 4442 desperate attention whore postings
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12-14-12, 05:39 PM (EST)
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26. "RE: Question to other parents:"
Here's one resource, Pepe:

http://www.fci.org/new-site/par-tragic-events.html

"When I was a boy and I would see scary things in the news, my mother would say to me, "Look for the helpers. You will always find people who are helping." To this day, especially in times of "disaster," I remember my mother's words and I am always comforted by realizing that there are still so many helpers – so many caring people in this world." - Fred Rogers


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PepeLePew13 24731 desperate attention whore postings
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12-14-12, 06:34 PM (EST)
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29. "RE: Question to other parents:"
Boys home now ... within two minutes of picking them up from the gym, Pippy brought it up and said he heard about the shooting and that the teachers and daycare workers were all discussing it. More parents than usual there to get their kids after school as well.
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Max Headroom 10028 desperate attention whore postings
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12-14-12, 05:41 PM (EST)
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27. "RE: Another mass shooting ... this time in CT"
I have no words.
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Snidget 43862 desperate attention whore postings
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12-14-12, 07:42 PM (EST)
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30. "RE: Another mass shooting ... this time in CT"
Not only that, there are not enough curse words in all the languages of the world to even begin expressing how eff-ed up this is.
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cahaya 18904 desperate attention whore postings
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12-14-12, 08:27 PM (EST)
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43. "RE: Another mass shooting ... this time in CT"
And there are no words for the sick feeling deep inside that comes from realizing the stark, bloody horror those teachers and children must have been experiencing in their own minds and hearts during this incident. I feel ill.

No words at all.

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PepeLePew13 24731 desperate attention whore postings
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12-14-12, 08:32 PM (EST)
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45. "RE: Another mass shooting ... this time in CT"
Agreed, and this has just made the lives of the parents of the surviving children that much more difficult - these kids are at an age where it's now going to be exceedingly difficult to get them to school with terrifying memories and fears that school is now a dangerous place for them.
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12-14-12, 06:31 PM (EST)
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28. "Just heard about this"
was out all day and heard the radio reports driving back from mom's house. Started crying right away. Just DAMN what is WRONG with people? Stopped crying enough to get in and I'm crying again. Those poor babies. Awful.
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Snidget 43862 desperate attention whore postings
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12-14-12, 07:44 PM (EST)
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31. "RE: Just heard about this"
I was working where there wasn't TV/radio just occasional quick internet checks.

Heard about one of the teachers who got all the kids in the classroom bathroom and the kids kept saying, "I just want Christmas". *sobs*

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Estee 55195 desperate attention whore postings
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12-14-12, 07:54 PM (EST)
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34. "More details sort out."
So now it's the mother dead at the CT home. No word yet on the timeline for her death. (I'd assumed he'd gotten in by telling the office he had to see his parent, but there would have been a substitute...) There is now no body in Hoboken and as stated above, the brother is confirmed alive: he's been in police questioning. The father has also been found and the police are speaking to him as well.

There has been no other story on CNN for nearly nine hours.

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Snidget 43862 desperate attention whore postings
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12-14-12, 08:10 PM (EST)
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36. "Who Had Mick Huckabee"
in the first public figure to make an incredibly insensitive remark pool?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/14/mike-huckabee-school-shooting_n_2303792.html

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Estee 55195 desperate attention whore postings
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12-14-12, 08:18 PM (EST)
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38. "RE: Who Had Mick Huckabee"
So. Contract renewal and a raise?

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cahaya 18904 desperate attention whore postings
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12-14-12, 08:24 PM (EST)
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41. "RE: Who Had Mick Huckabee"
As much as I don't like him, Bloomberg also said his piece fairly quickly, too. At least he made a bit more sense.
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Estee 55195 desperate attention whore postings
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12-14-12, 08:32 PM (EST)
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44. "RE: Who Had Mick Huckabee"
But if the weapons were in fact acquired legally by and registered to his mother, then preventing their use would basically require a built-in fingerprint scanner. And the instant that happens, there will be someone out there building a scanner shortout.

Making guns harder to get doesn't stop anything. It just changes the channels. And what can anyone do when the paperwork is clean, triplicate, and in someone else's name?

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cahaya 18904 desperate attention whore postings
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12-14-12, 08:38 PM (EST)
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48. "RE: Who Had Mick Huckabee"
Yeah. Note that I said a 'bit' more sense.

I think it goes well beyond gun control which, with the genie already out of the bottle, isn't likely to be effective in our ingrained culture of violence. This isn't a discussion I want to get into at the moment, maybe later in a separate thresd.

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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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12-15-12, 04:21 PM (EST)
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63. "RE: Who Had Mick Huckabee"
"But if the weapons were in fact acquired legally"

Then change the law.

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dabo 25344 desperate attention whore postings
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12-14-12, 09:40 PM (EST)
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52. "RE: Who Had Mick Huckabee"
http://www.examiner.com/article/video-president-obama-cries-wipes-tears-speech-on-ct-school-shooting

I thought President Obama addressed the matter in a perfectly appropriate manner and was correct to not take this as an opportunity to put forth a political debate.

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VisionQuest 1171 desperate attention whore postings
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12-14-12, 08:24 PM (EST)
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40. "RE: Who Had Mick Huckabee"
LAST EDITED ON 12-14-12 AT 08:33 PM (EST)

AFA spokesman said children died in shooting because school did not embrace God. Why does anyone do this when there are families out there that are ruined because of this? This can't be the Christian way. And if it is, I am glad I am not a part of it.

Edit - I know it's not the Christian way. It just peeves me that it's more believable to some people that a lack of faith is more to blame than something like mental illness. Not one of my Christian friends would endorse what these folks said. I was not fair in my above comment. Sorry, if I offended anyone.

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Estee 55195 desperate attention whore postings
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12-14-12, 08:35 PM (EST)
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47. "RE: Who Had Mick Huckabee"
LAST EDITED ON 12-14-12 AT 08:37 PM (EST)

Because their idea of Christianity centers around fear. And if fear of divine retribution makes you do what they say? Mission accomplished.

I'm waiting for them or @#$%abee to explain how the children had sinned on a level that deserved that kind of punishment. But then, their deity is one who appears to enjoy killing innocents without reason. And having been made in their own image...

You know what? I'm glad the AFA opened its mouth. This is the sort of thing which might finally make a few of its own members realize exactly what they signed on with. It's going to cost them numbers, money, public support, and some percentage of the credibility shred they were pretending to have left. Of course, those who remain will just push farther out to the extreme, but that was going to happen anyway, (extreme) right?

In @#$%abee's case, his ratings will just go up.

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Estee 55195 desperate attention whore postings
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01-02-13, 08:18 PM (EST)
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161. "More AFA fun."
I didn't want to start a separate thread for this, but the hysterical prediction/fundraising plea in this letter makes me wonder if they did lose some members from what they claimed about the shooting. If they're trying this hard to panic their membership, then there may be less people to frighten.

http://www.mediaite.com/online/conservative-org-warns-that-christians-will-soon-be-second-class-citizens-like-blacks-under-jim-crow/

I have yet to look for THE STATEMENT. I'm not sure I want to see what it SAYS ABOUT THE CURE. I'm pretty certain KILLING THE LIBERALS will be Stage One...

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dabo 25344 desperate attention whore postings
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01-02-13, 08:46 PM (EST)
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162. "Good God"
Just substitute "white" for "Christian" and it is pretty much the same alarmist racist tripe that's been making the rounds since, well, the late '60s or early '70s.

(But at least one thing should be pointed out, the government does not own the broadcast airwaves. They are public airwaves. At least in theory.)

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Estee 55195 desperate attention whore postings
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01-03-13, 00:06 AM (EST)
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165. "RE: Good God"
Which given the mention of Afrimericans and second-class citizenship, turns this towards "Do you want to risk becoming what we've tried to make everyone else into?""

Besides, don't we have an Islamic president right now? The first sign!

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dabo 25344 desperate attention whore postings
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01-03-13, 01:20 AM (EST)
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166. "RE: Good God"
LOL! The premise of the opening, that "Conservative Christians" will become second-class citizens simply for virtue of being outnumbered in the future, is exactly the same as the fear-mongering "America won't be a white (WASP) country anymore in (however many decades in) the future --" dire warning that sometimes still crops up from various quarters. Because the idea is, I guess, it isn't really our country if we aren't in the majority or at least still in charge, or whatever. Inclusiveness just seems unfathomable to so many.

I lvoe this letter, though, as it is so paranoid and over the top. It's practically a blueprint for a dystopian sci-fi for the Christian market, with a bit of work it could be made into something perhaps worthwhile. I mean, if there was a logical point that could be made out of it somehow; as it is it is just meaningless alarmism and virtually ignorant.

Anything to raise a buck.

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Snidget 43862 desperate attention whore postings
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01-02-13, 10:36 PM (EST)
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163. "RE: More AFA fun."
Best as I can tell, it's the we aren't a hate group, you are for calling us a hate group petition.

But I could be wrong.

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01-03-13, 00:02 AM (EST)
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164. "RE: More AFA fun."
*nods* Oh, right: one of those petitions which only hate groups put up.
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12-16-12, 01:00 PM (EST)
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75. "It Gets Worse"
Everything I try to type about this makes me sound deranged so I'll just post the link:

http://www.examiner.com/article/westboro-baptist-church-to-protest-newtown-when-obama-visits-on-sunday


'Westboro will picket Sandy Hook Elementary School to sing praise to God for the glory of his work in executing his judgment. - Shirley Phelps-Roper


And I thought I was angry enough already.

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Snidget 43862 desperate attention whore postings
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12-16-12, 01:25 PM (EST)
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76. "RE: It Gets Worse"
Where do I contribute to the fund to build a special circle of hell just for that *censored* *censored again* "church"?

not to mention I now need to replace some logic circuits for the brief moment I tried to understand how this particular event is all Carrie Underwood's fault.

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12-16-12, 06:11 PM (EST)
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84. "RE: It Gets Worse"
I don't really see how the Westboro gang is very different from Hucklebee. They are both trying to use this tragedy for their own selfish ends and are far, far beyond reprehensible.
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12-17-12, 04:53 PM (EST)
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98. "RE: It Gets Worse"
If those bleeping idiots are dumb enough to picket the school, they may find it to be hazardous for their health!

They have about 40 members now but I think they will be missing some members real soon.

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Estee 55195 desperate attention whore postings
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12-18-12, 05:33 PM (EST)
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105. "Anonymous attacks."
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/anonymous-wages-war-westboro-baptist-church-article-1.1222014

If you don't have the computer skills to join in, consider heading to the White House's website and signing the petition asking Westboro to be officially labeled as a hate group.

No pity. No mercy. No backing off.

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Estee 55195 desperate attention whore postings
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12-14-12, 08:11 PM (EST)
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37. "At least two of the weapons registered to the mother."
That just broke. No word on which two and it could potentially become all three. There's a report which has her dead from a gunshot to the face: the same article says it was in fact her classroom Lanza went to.

The 'why' will go on forever.

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12-14-12, 08:34 PM (EST)
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46. "RE: At least two of the weapons registered to the mother."
There's a report which has her dead from a gunshot to the face

Given the unusually high fatality to injury ratio, she probably isn't the only one.

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Snidget 43862 desperate attention whore postings
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12-14-12, 09:32 PM (EST)
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50. "Odd timing Chinese School Attack"
Heard about this on the BBC news hour this morning.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/12/14/china-knife-attack-school.html

Two mass attacks on schools, same day, just seems so weird.

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12-16-12, 02:54 PM (EST)
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79. "RE: Odd timing Chinese School Attack"
Zero deaths in China's attack. Crazy man armed with a knife.

30 deaths in CT. Crazy man armed with guns.

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12-14-12, 09:37 PM (EST)
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51. "RE: Another mass shooting ... this time in CT"
Saw this posted in a couple of places about Fox grabbing the wrong person's fb pic and saying it was the shooter (in Fox's defense, can't believe I said that, other news orgs did it too) Probably before they got the name right. If this is too big, let me know and I will just post the link.

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12-15-12, 00:35 AM (EST)
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56. "RE: Another mass shooting ... this time in CT"
And they even got that part wrong, it wasn't even Ryan but his brother instead.
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Snidget 43862 desperate attention whore postings
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12-14-12, 11:24 PM (EST)
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54. "Syfy pulls Haven Episode"
Tonight's episode was about school violence, they pulled it from the schedule for tonight. No word on when it will air.
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dabo 25344 desperate attention whore postings
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12-14-12, 11:58 PM (EST)
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55. "RE: Syfy pulls Haven Episode"
Thanks! I was wondering why we were getting the animated Christmas "Eureka".

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/haven-episode-pulled-wake-newtown-402738

According to a description of "Reunion," "Nathan (Lucas Bryant) and Duke (Eric Balfour) go back to their high school to help Audrey (Emily Rose) apprehend a troubled killer who is wreaking havoc at a student reunion."

Syfy issued a statement to The Hollywood Reporter regarding the decision: "Tonight's scheduled 10 p.m. episode of Haven contained scenes of fictitious violence in a high school. In light of today's tragedy in Newtown, Conn., we have decided not to air it. At this time, no decision has been made as to when the episode will air."

I think they really didn't need to make that call, violence at a reunion that happened to be being held at the school is a different matter, but given people's sensitivities maybe it was the right call.

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CTgirl 7073 desperate attention whore postings
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12-15-12, 10:34 AM (EST)
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58. "RE: Another mass shooting ... this time in CT"
I recently moved to MA but I lived near Newtown for 18 years. It is a bucolic New England town where everyone gives directions in relation to the flagpole in the middle of town. I have friends in Newtown and I have friends and family who teach in many towns in Connecticut. When I first saw the news on TV, I heard Danbury and elementary school shooting. My sister-in-law teaches in Danbury. I was sick to my stomach. Turns out the shooting was in Newtown and they were taken to Danbury Hospital. I was still sick to my stomach. Everyone in that school's life has changed forever.

On a side note, both my old town and Danbury (and I assume other surrounding towns) immediately put all their schools on lock down until they knew what was going on and then had an early dismissal. Between Columbine and 9-11 and other shootings, most school systems have their emergency plans in place and are able to move into them seamlessly. From what I hear on the TV this morning, the teachers in Sandy Hook also had been trained in what to do.

In reference to having a police presence in school, few of the suburban towns in Connecticut have police in the schools. Towns get very little money from the state for education, it's mostly funded by the towns through the property tax. CT is also a blue state. My town had a police officer at the high school for two years and between the cost and the amount of parents complaining that having a cop at the high school was too much of a police state, the position was cut.

IIRC, the reason why our town switched to locking all the doors and having to sign in and go through the front office, was to prevent kidnapping and child custody issues, not to prevent shooters from entering.

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jbug 16685 desperate attention whore postings
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12-15-12, 11:24 AM (EST)
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60. "RE: Another mass shooting ... this time in CT"
IIRC, the reason why our town switched to locking all the doors and having to sign in and go through the front office, was to prevent kidnapping and child custody issues, not to prevent shooters from entering.

I think this is probably the reason for security in most schools.

Even with the best security system, this guy could have still entered the school. He was the son of one of the teachers; he may have been recognized as such; or he might have identified himself as such.
No one doing the "security screening" had any reason to deny him entrance - assuming of course that they couldn't see the guns.

I've been thinking that school officials may be thinking now.....
"do any of our staff or faculty have anyone who is really angry at them & might some to the school to take out their anger there?"

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PepeLePew13 24731 desperate attention whore postings
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12-15-12, 03:13 PM (EST)
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61. "RE: Another mass shooting ... this time in CT"
LAST EDITED ON 12-15-12 AT 03:26 PM (EST)

In reference to your final sentence, might I add: "How do we know if any of our staff or faculty are having a particularly bad day and won't decide to bring their artillery with them to school and take it out on the others?"

Personally, I think we need to be looking at some form of gun control. I know it's an extremely touchy subject for millions of people with the Second Amendment and all that, but handguns and semi-automatic guns are designed for one purpose only - to kill people. I get why some want to get rifles as they're mainly used for hunting season, but handguns? Semi-automatic guns?

As I read somewhere: In 1996, Australia banned semi-automatics. In the 18 years before, there were 13 mass shootings. Since then, none.

Can't verify that last statement so will need to do some research on that.

ETA: if you (meaning any of you who reads this) feel gun control isn't the answer, then what is the answer to stop mass shootings? Our children should never have to fear going to shopping malls, movie theatres and to school - these three being the sites of recent mass shootings.

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zombiebaby 7355 desperate attention whore postings
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12-15-12, 05:13 PM (EST)
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64. "To help stop it"
I think there should be easier access to affordable, decent mental health care.

There should be free screenings at schools, starting with elementary and up through all post -secondary and graduate. Work places should offer them as well. Services should then be provided.

Is it the answer and cure all? Doubt it. But at the least it should be as easy to get help as it is to get automatic weapons.

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12-15-12, 05:54 PM (EST)
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67. "RE: To help stop it"
I agree, although even this won't stop the occasional person either slipping through the net, being untreatable, or not taking their meds.

After a session with a bloody useless counsellor on Monday I am less sanguine than you about any screenings that might take place.

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jbug 16685 desperate attention whore postings
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12-15-12, 07:18 PM (EST)
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68. "RE: Another mass shooting ... this time in CT"
gun control...

while I feel in a way that automatic weapons like those often used in these kids of shootings maybe should be banned....

I can't help but think of the movie Red Dawn.
And I am one who believes that if you take the guns away from law abiding citizens, there will be an invasion on the continental US by another country.

It's not Russia I fear; but the radicals and extremists of Iraq, Iran & Afghanistan and others.

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PepeLePew13 24731 desperate attention whore postings
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12-15-12, 08:06 PM (EST)
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69. "RE: Another mass shooting ... this time in CT"
LAST EDITED ON 12-15-12 AT 08:11 PM (EST)

That is what the military is for. When the extremists come, I want the well-trained armed forces folks to be handling the security, not a bunch of trigger-happy people who may not realize which are the good guys or the bad guys.

And here's the rub with "law-abiding" citizens ... they're all law-abiding citizens with guns until they snap and decide to break the law. For all we know, the Lanza family didn't break any laws before this incident with Adam apparently being turned down for a gun three days before the shootings. So far, I haven't heard of any sort of a criminal record by anyone in that family.

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Snidget 43862 desperate attention whore postings
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12-16-12, 08:24 AM (EST)
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73. "RE: Another mass shooting ... this time in CT"
LAST EDITED ON 12-16-12 AT 08:24 AM (EST)

I agree, a large group of heavily armed professionals with computer-guided heavy artillery and weapons of mass destruction is probably a larger deterrent than all the random civilians with shot-guns in the world.

Besides, whoever is serious about invading will just do to us what we did to Japan to avoid having to take the country one house at a time.

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12-16-12, 03:02 PM (EST)
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80. "North Korea"
Wouldn't want to radioactivify Southern California beaches, would they?

Uh Oh! maybe they would. Crazies.

As personal protection goes, I've only shot two people. With bear spray. Does the job and I'm not writing from Sing Sing.

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Snidget 43862 desperate attention whore postings
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12-16-12, 03:25 PM (EST)
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81. "RE: North Korea"
Does North Korea even have enough boats to launch an invasion, and if they did wouldn't they starve to death long before they got here to establish a beachhead?

I really don't think your shotgun is going to get a bullet all the way to Pyongyang in order to stop the launch.

One advantage of being in the USA is that we are always going to be rather difficult to invade. Lots of people may be able to get a shot off at us from a distance, but I really don't have fears of foreign armies going door to door through my neighborhood. I'm a bit shocked no one has dropped a nuke on us, yet. But I don't think having a gun in my house is going to stop that, or be what keeps the invasion force at home on another continent.

I still think the "they have enough drones and nukes and other army stuff to kill every last one of us 450X over in our own homes" is more of a factor in the "do we want to invade the USA today" than "they probably have enough bullets spread out between all their homes to kill everyone we send over".

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12-16-12, 03:52 PM (EST)
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82. "As Long"
As we have enough nukes to make the rubble bounce.

Cr@p, I guess The Soviet Union lost a few of those suitcase bombs.
I'd better check my bathroom again.
Too bad the plumbing isn't going to last 24,500 years, but the cast iron is holding up pretty good considering what it has to put up with.

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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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12-16-12, 00:38 AM (EST)
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70. "RE: Another mass shooting ... this time in CT"
Maybe? What possible use do these weapons have except for killing human beings? The right to live should be more important than the right to buy a gun.

As for invasion, you really think that could happen? Even when the US military could destroy any of those countries in minutes?

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dabo 25344 desperate attention whore postings
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12-16-12, 01:16 AM (EST)
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71. "RE: Another mass shooting ... this time in CT"
You Canadians just want to invade and take over the US. You want all our pennies, admit it you do.

Per specifications the weapon used in this tragedy was a hunting rifle.

There are several different issues which actually should be discussed relevant to this tragedy: school security, mental illness, and gun control which itself is several different issues, what guns should be legal or illegal, who can own guns, who can sell guns, etc.

I agree with you that handguns (or sidearms) in general are a poor choice of weapon for many things, hunting for example, though they are weapons of choice for self-protection, bodyguards, security personnel and so on simply because they can be easilly carried.

Anyway, I don't think a debate now on gun controls will be productive. It's a highly politically charged matter here, the tragedy too recent, people need to calm down not charge up.

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Snidget 43862 desperate attention whore postings
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12-16-12, 08:16 AM (EST)
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72. "RE: Another mass shooting ... this time in CT"
Sadly, I fear we will never get a long enough break from the gun violence for it to be time to talk about what to do about the gun violence.
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12-16-12, 11:12 AM (EST)
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74. "RE: Another mass shooting ... this time in CT"
It's been almost completely effective for gun advocates to say "Don't talk about gun control - it's too soon" or "you're politicizing the tragedy". They have intimidated the other side with this tactic so well that we may never have any reasonable debate about finding ways to prevent or limit access to weapons by madmen.
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dabo 25344 desperate attention whore postings
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12-16-12, 06:44 PM (EST)
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85. "RE: Another mass shooting ... this time in CT"
On the contrary, I think the debate should happen, delaying it a bit over the weekend serves two useful purposes. First, this was a very traumatizing event for everyone, people on both sides of the debate are emotionally charged up and could benefit by dealing first with the trauma and grieving. Second, we need to know as much what really happened, get the facts, in order to have the gun debate. For example, it does little good to talk solely about handguns when it turns out the shooter really used a semi-automatic hunting rifle to kill all his victims. It was also the weapon used by the Beltway sniper. So now we can ask why is this considered a hunting rifle?
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Snidget 43862 desperate attention whore postings
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12-17-12, 09:19 AM (EST)
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89. "RE: Another mass shooting ... this time in CT"
While you say you do want it, at some time, the too soon is used all the time to make sur it never happens.

By the time the funerals are over and the building is repaired or replaced and we've given everyone as much therapy as they can get so they are healed enough to tolerate it and it has been out of the headlines long enough and those people have calmed down enough and. And. And. And.

The next event has happened. There are endless reasons why it is too soon. If not now. When? Because it is never the time. Why would it be time next month when it was never time a month after any other mass shooting. I'm tired of it s not time. It will never be time. I can't see anyone being strong enough to make it time this time.

Deck the Halls with Sigs of Tribe

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dabo 25344 desperate attention whore postings
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12-17-12, 09:26 AM (EST)
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90. "RE: Another mass shooting ... this time in CT"
http://community.realitytvworld.com/boards/DCForumID6/37898.shtml
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Snidget 43862 desperate attention whore postings
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12-17-12, 10:10 AM (EST)
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92. "RE: Another mass shooting ... this time in CT"
Nice to hear it in a speech, but I am not expecting to see anything happen or anything change.

I mean pretty much after every one of these a few people make a "never again" noise and "this time we will do something, when it time, after things calm down, really we will..." noise.

You really think this time will be different? I like to think this President actually means it. Whether he actually will, I dunno. If he tries, he will most likely be stopped.

I hope he tries, even if he can't get something done, but he didn't do anything about gun violence the last four years even though all the gun fetishists were sure he would do way more than the first set of campaign promises suggested he would.


Deck the Halls with Sigs of Tribe

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PepeLePew13 24731 desperate attention whore postings
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12-16-12, 01:31 PM (EST)
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77. "RE: Another mass shooting ... this time in CT"
A friend sent this to me after being involved in a bit of a debate over the causes of violence, and some guy kept yelling about TV and video games being the root of crime. I didn't believe it at first but here it is:

Detroit homicides in 2010 = 310

Across the river, in Windsor, homicides in 2010 = 0 (zero)
http://www.ctvnews.ca/windsor-ont-goes-murder-free-through-2010-1.591859

Same TV shows, same video games.

Is it gun control laws? We're not permitted to carry guns in public and to get a gun, we must have a PAL permit, undergo a CRFSC training program and be screened with a background check plus a 28 day waiting period. Guns must be locked up if there is a need to transport it in a vehicle.

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HobbsofMI 15959 desperate attention whore postings
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12-17-12, 08:46 AM (EST)
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88. "RE: Another mass shooting ... this time in CT"
While I would mostly agree....the social and economics of Windsor and Detroit are not a fair comparison. Maybe if you were looking at some of the suburbs around Detroit then it would be more apples to apples.


sig Syren, bouncy by IceCat, bobble head by Tribephyl, and snoglobe by agman

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Estee 55195 desperate attention whore postings
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12-16-12, 01:49 PM (EST)
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78. "RE: Another mass shooting ... this time in CT"
What are you more afraid of, their ability to walk or their natural talent for swimming?
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12-15-12, 10:41 AM (EST)
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59. "RE: Another mass shooting ... this time in CT"
Beyond tragic. Thoughts with all at this very sad time.
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HobbsofMI 15959 desperate attention whore postings
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12-15-12, 05:30 PM (EST)
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65. "H.S. kid in OK arrested in bomb/shooting plot"
Just heard this....so I'm looking for details. I guess he tried to get help getting people into the gym/auditorium and then was going to shoot the place up and blow it up when the cops got there.

Even if we arm teachers or make schools max security prisons the crazies will just up their ways to do what they want to do. We must get to the root of the cause that push these people over the edge.


sig Syren, bouncy by IceCat, bobble head by Tribephyl, and snoglobe by agman

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12-15-12, 05:42 PM (EST)
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66. "RE: Another mass shooting ... this time in CT"
This is tough... From the principal's twitter, this picture of the first grade class was apparently taken the day before the shooting (date on the whiteboard is Thurs Dec 13).

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12-16-12, 04:28 PM (EST)
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83. "RE: Another mass shooting ... this time in CT"
Heartbreaking.
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12-16-12, 06:51 PM (EST)
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86. "The dead."
Children

Charlotte Bacon
Daniel Barden
Olivia Engel
Josephine Gay
Ana Marquez-Green
Dylan Hockley
Madeleine Hsu
Catherine Hubbard
Chase Kowalski
Jesse Lewis
James Mattioli
Grace McDonnell
Emilie Parker
Jack Pinto
Noah Pozner
Caroline Previdi
Jessica Rekos
Avielle Richman
Benjamin Wheeler
Allison Wyatt

Adults

Rachel Davino
Dawn Hochsprung
Nancy Lanza
Anne Marie Murphy
Mary Sherlach
Victoria Soto
Lauren Rousseau

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12-17-12, 02:47 AM (EST)
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87. "Hunger Games"
I know this could be off base, but how strange is it that the author of an extremely popular trilogy about children in a violent world lives in Newtown, Conn. It's a pretty small town isn't it?
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12-17-12, 09:50 AM (EST)
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91. "RE: Another mass shooting ... this "
I've mentioned above that we talked to our kids about the shooting on Friday and answered any questions over the weekend. All seemed to be taking it in stride. Normal concerns and sadness.

Last night while watching Wipeout it was interrupted by the President's speech at the vigil. Usually when something like this happens my son(4th grade) gets angry and feels like it is a personal ploy at him to take away his show. Instead he started to cry. Not cry a little, he sobbed. I held him. He said he was so sad for those kids who won't see Christmas. He said if it happened at his school he would create a protective shield around his friends. My husband came in to see what was going on. He hugged him and we sobbed together.

My son is on the autism spectrum. "High fuctioning", he has PDD-NOS/ADHD. He probably comes across as "quirky". He can talk your ear off about the Macy's Thanksgiving Parade.

My point is please don't associate Aspergers/Autism with violence as a lot of the media is suggesting. It is not mental illness. You can be mentally ill and have autism but autism will not cause you to shoot up a school. Right now the media is behaving very irresponsibly with trying to show the killer was a weirdo and that he may have Aspergers.

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12-17-12, 10:46 AM (EST)
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93. "RE: Another mass shooting ... this "
The media is doing more harm than good by focusing on the Asperger's part of Adam Lanza's personality. So many people don't understand autism and this is making is worse. I winced when I heard a reporter describing him as weird, talking about his quietness and the fact he carried a briefcase to school instead of a back pack when he was younger. So what? That didn't cause him to shoot 26 people.

I was shocked to hear Obama say this was the 4th mass shooting of his presidency. That averages out to one a year. That is a horrible statistic that our country needs to do something to change.

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12-17-12, 02:57 PM (EST)
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94. "RE: Another mass shooting ... this "
I agree, the media did a poor job in some respects, and while the focus on mental illness as part of the issue was understandable, once Asperger's was brought into the discussion they connected dot 1 to dot we're still not checking our facts just going with whatever comes up.

Fortunately, particularly in respect to the mental health aspect of the problem, the president is not focussing singly on this one case but on the big picture. So the mental health aspect can redirect to include the Aurora shooter, the "Gabby" Giffords shooter, and so on.

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12-17-12, 04:48 PM (EST)
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97. "I liked this article..."
Really good viewpoint on what parents go through with undiagnosed children who obviously have 'some' kind of an issue:

"I am Adam Lanza's mother"

This should be required reading for all media personnel.

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12-17-12, 05:02 PM (EST)
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99. "RE: Another mass shooting ... this "

My point is please don't associate Aspergers/Autism with violence as a lot of the media is suggesting. It is not mental illness. You can be mentally ill and have autism but autism will not cause you to shoot up a school. Right now the media is behaving very irresponsibly with trying to show the killer was a weirdo and that he may have Aspergers

Well said! My son is autistic and I just cringe everytime the media plays that up!

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12-17-12, 03:45 PM (EST)
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95. "If it were up to me. "
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=To4XiBEACSQ&feature=player_embedded
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12-17-12, 04:15 PM (EST)
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96. "RE: If it were up to me. "
*like*
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12-17-12, 07:07 PM (EST)
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100. "Swoop Block!"

sig Syren, bouncy by IceCat, bobble head by Tribephyl, and snoglobe by agman
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12-17-12, 11:50 PM (EST)
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101. "Logistical question"
How would you go about arming all the teachers.

Loaded guns in every room, do they have to be armed at all times, or can they lock them in their drawer?

If they have a behaviorally dangerous student that can't be placed for a few months into a special school do you force that teacher to have the loaded gun in the room and how much will it effect their teaching to be constantly monitoring the gun and the student to keep them separate.

And after we build enough schools for the kids we need to keep away from guns, do we arm all those teachers?

Do you keep all the ammo in the main office? Do you want teachers running for the guns or ammo through the line of fire or getting the kids to safety as best as can be done in any given situation?

Will the SWAT team know who the shooter is if every adult in the school has a gun in their hand?

Is it really worth the risk of having a small number of students shot nationwide every month or two to try to prevent that one nutcase ever few years in one school?

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12-18-12, 03:24 AM (EST)
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102. "RE: Logistical question"
Good thing you used the word 'logistical' instead of 'logical'.

I simply don't see the logic in arming teachers. This is not their profession, they didn't sign on to be an armed cop as well as an educator. So a new qualification to teach includes certification in handling and shooting firearms?

Keep the guns out of school, there have already been too many in them.

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12-18-12, 08:03 AM (EST)
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103. "RE: Logistical question"
I saw a few people making well if schools weren't gun free zones then there wouldn't be shootings at schools noises. So we must arm all the teachers. Just the guns being in the schools magically makes them safe from crazy people who wanna kill a bunch of people.

After all (haven't seen a mainstream media report of this). The word on some of the blogs is that the Clackamas shooter very clearly saw a man at the mall pull out the concealed carry gun he has a permit for. The response to this "confrontation" was instead of shooting a person he had a clear view of because of the gun the man was unable to be shot at and the Clackamas guy immediate knew he must commit suicide in just that moment.

Who knew guns were shields and you can't be shot at when you are holding one and they have mind-control properties over the crazies and induce instant suicide? No wonder gun sales go through the roof after a mass shooting incident.

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12-18-12, 10:17 AM (EST)
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104. "RE: Logistical question"
I knew that one of the reactions to this tragedy would be that we need to have more guns, not less guns. I think it's ludicrous. The same day as the Newtown, CT, shootings, someone in China also flipped and went crazy. The difference? The guy in China didn't have a gun nearby, or know where there was one, so he grabbed a knife and the damaged he caused was nothing compared to Newtown, CT.
That statistic that Pepe put up from Australia is really telling.
I'm sure the founders and the authors of the second amendment are turning over in their graves to see what is happening. The goal was to have an armed militia in case of an invasion (by the Brits) but there hasn't been one in the history of the United States and yet how many Americans have been killed by guns during 'peace times' in the past 200 years? I'm guessing the number would be close to the total US WWII casualties.
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12-19-12, 02:15 AM (EST)
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109. "RE: Logistical question"
LAST EDITED ON 12-19-12 AT 02:19 AM (EST)

I'm sure the founders and the authors of the second amendment are turning over in their graves to see what is happening.

Agreed. Historically during that time, many nations had militias with armed citizens to helped defend their countries in conjunction with national armies. Those times are long past, with the 'militia' role now delegated to the National Guard in support of the U.S. Armed Forces.

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01-09-13, 00:22 AM (EST)
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167. "RE: Logistical question"
I disagree. The second amendment was not intended as a protection of the country from outside forces. It wasn't directed to hunters and it wasn't even devised for personal protection. But rather, in a government based on checks and balances, it is to be the final check and the ultimate balance. It is the final source of the people's authority over their government.

James Madison: "(The Constitution preserves) the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation ... (where) the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms."

Thomas Jefferson: "What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms."

George Mason, author of the Virginia Bill of Rights, which inspired our Constitution's Bill of Rights, said, "To disarm the people — that was the best and most effectual way to enslave them."

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dabo 25344 desperate attention whore postings
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01-09-13, 00:31 AM (EST)
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168. "RE: Logistical question"
Welcome back. How'd you manage to avoid the search parties?
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newsomewayne 9065 desperate attention whore postings
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01-09-13, 00:39 AM (EST)
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169. "RE: Logistical question"
To answer that, I'll refer you to a section of the East Tennesee National Anthem:

Once two strangers climbed on rocky top,
Lookin' for a moonshine still.
Strangers ain't come back from rocky top,
REckon' they never will.

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Starshine 4934 desperate attention whore postings
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01-09-13, 05:27 AM (EST)
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170. "RE: Logistical question"
Just because some old dead dudes thought something was so doesn't make it so.

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01-09-13, 10:27 PM (EST)
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171. "RE: Logistical question"
Not liking what they knew doesn't make it not so.
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01-10-13, 02:16 AM (EST)
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172. "RE: Logistical question"
The interesting thing about the 2nd Amendement is that its language is so clear, and yet people don't like it conclusion, so they want to misread it. The idea that its language is somehow mystifying is a total fantasy.

Here's what the Second Amendment says in the version sent to the states for ratification and authenticated by Secretary of State Jefferson (yes, authenticating the wording of bills was part of TJ's duties back in the early days). Note that the extraneous comma after "militia" was removed, showing that it was, well, extraneous:

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

If this was about setting up militias, the right to bear arms would have been given to the states. After all, militias were generally armed by their organizing state (for example, look at the Civil War, which was 90% fought by militias). But the right to bear arms was given to the people. So, as the Supreme Court correctly found, this amendment really doesn't have anything to do with militias.

So why is the militia clause there? For one simple reason: because the right to bear arms wasn't any more popular with certain groups back then than it is now.

In other words, whining about guns is as old as the Constitution. But it was a minority view then and it's a minority view now.

In the words of Mayor Bloomberg: waaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh.

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Starshine 4934 desperate attention whore postings
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01-10-13, 05:27 AM (EST)
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173. "RE: Logistical question"
OK, they also knew that Black people were inferior. I believe that to be not so.

They knew guns could fire at most nine shots a minute, I also believe this to be not so.

They believed that the only way to protest was violently. Gandhi and Bayard Rustin have shown us that is not so.


If you have arguments and beliefs then by all means state them but don't say oh some bloke who died 300 years ago said x therefore it must be true.

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Estee 55195 desperate attention whore postings
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01-10-13, 01:13 PM (EST)
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174. "RE: Logistical question"
He's just being consistent. His other political positions are generally based on the idea that things some blokes who died two to six thousand years ago said must be true.

Hanging curveball.

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01-10-13, 09:28 PM (EST)
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175. "RE: Logistical question"
>OK, they also knew that Black people were inferior. I believe
>that to be not so.

Thomas Jefferson, who was a slaveholder, wrote the Northwest Ordinance in 1787, which prohibited both slavery and involuntary servitude in the Northwest Territories. The Congress of the Conferderation passed it. So I wouldn't be so certain that the Founding Fathers "knew" black people were inferior, because if they really believed this to be so, they wouldn't have banned the expansion of slavery into the Northwest Territories.

It also appears that the reason the Continental Congress changed John Locke's declaration about "life, liberty and property" being sacrosanct into "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" in the Declaration was due to unease over people being property.

>They knew guns could fire at most nine shots a minute,
>I also believe this to be not so.

A gun that could have fired nine rounds in a minute in that day would have been such a huge advance . . . I think firing two rounds in a minute was as good as could be envisioned. And rifling was only available in gun barrels as long as George Washington was tall, which is why so few people died from gunfire. (N.B. A Revolutionary War general named Benedict Arnold figured out how to use the rebels' one company of backwoodsmen equipped with long rifles to crush a superior British army at Saratoga. Mind you, he was never given credit for this huge tactical breakthrough because of other events that happened in his life shortly thereafter.)

>They believed that the only way to protest was violently.
>Gandhi and Bayard Rustin have shown us that is not so.

Had Gandhi tried to do nonviolent protest in the 1700s, he would have been dead as a doorknob. Nonviolent protest can only succeed when mainstream violence becomes unacceptable.

>If you have arguments and beliefs then by all means state
>them but don't say oh some bloke who died 300
>years ago said x therefore it must be true.

Is there anything that "must be true"? Even despite my belief in the Christian writings, this discussion makes me think of that to which Estee alluded:

Pilate then went back inside the palace, summoned Jesus and asked him, “Are you the king of the Jews?”

“Is that your own idea,” Jesus asked, “or did others talk to you about me?”

“Am I a Jew?” Pilate replied. “It was your people and your chief priests who handed you over to me. What is it you have done?”

Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place.”

“You are a king, then!” said Pilate.

Jesus answered, “You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.”

“What is truth?” Pilate asked.

With this he went out again to the Jews and said, “I find no basis for a charge against him."

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cahaya 18904 desperate attention whore postings
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01-10-13, 11:38 PM (EST)
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178. "RE: Logistical question"
A gun that could have fired nine rounds in a minute in that day would have been such a huge advance . . . I think firing two rounds in a minute was as good as could be envisioned.

Even that is far too quick for the time. Until the invention of the Minié ball with the paper cartridge for use in the civil war, loading and firing a flintlock was a tedious 12-step process (Interesting post there, by the way.) Even the "advanced" Civil War era Minie ball allowed for only four rounds a minute.

In either case, a crazed idiot would would only get one (presumably) pre-loaded round off being being subdued.

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dabo 25344 desperate attention whore postings
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01-10-13, 11:47 PM (EST)
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179. "RE: Logistical question"
But you could do a lot of damage with a fully loaded baby cart.


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cahaya 18904 desperate attention whore postings
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01-11-13, 00:24 AM (EST)
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180. "RE: Logistical question"
And then we have a modern-day weapon capable of firing, would you believe it, one million rounds per minute, courtesy of history.com.
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foonermints 12302 desperate attention whore postings
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01-11-13, 00:46 AM (EST)
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182. "RE: Logistical question"
I wonder if they are at the Shot Show next week in Las Vegas?

Anyrate, the poor version would just be making a zip gun out of a few plumbing parts, anything from a .22 to a 12ga. Not to mention the oil filter silencer. Shh!

tiny little devil: familiar with more mayhem than big clumsy devils.

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01-11-13, 02:07 AM (EST)
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183. "RE: Logistical question"
Shot row? One round a minute would put anyone under the table!


Ragtop Ride by foonermints

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foonermints 12302 desperate attention whore postings
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01-11-13, 02:50 AM (EST)
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184. "RE: Logistical question"
tiny little devil: word-on-the-street has it that's how Grit captured Newsome.
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kingfish 16088 desperate attention whore postings
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01-11-13, 09:52 AM (EST)
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188. "RE: Logistical question"
I want one of those guns. I need someone else to buy the ammo and load clips for me. Million round clips are kinda tedious, plus I don't think I have room in my underground Doomsday bunker for that much ammo.

But I could kill a lot of pesky neighbors. And deer, and elk, and birdies.

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Starshine 4934 desperate attention whore postings
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01-11-13, 03:41 AM (EST)
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185. "RE: Logistical question"
>>OK, they also knew that Black people were inferior. I believe
>>that to be not so.

>Thomas Jefferson, who was a slaveholder, wrote the Northwest Ordinance in
>1787, which prohibited both slavery and involuntary servitude in the
>Northwest Territories. The Congress of the Conferderation passed it.
> So I wouldn't be so certain that the Founding
>Fathers "knew" black people were inferior, because if they really
>believed this to be so, they wouldn't have banned the
>expansion of slavery into the Northwest Territories.

Just because people said they were anti slavery doesn't mean that they felt that all peoples are equal ( White man's burden).

Thomas Jefferson also proposed laws that severely restricted free blacks from entering or living in Virginia, which would have banished children whose father was of African origin and exiled any white woman who had a child with a black man.

The facts that he didn't follow the instructions in the Kościuszko will, didn't interfere with the 1806 change to the Virginia emancipation law, and formally freed only two slaves during his life (although he did allow two slaves to "walk away" in 1822, and freed five more in his will, 130 of his slaves were sold after his death) suggest to me that he wasn't anti slavery for himself.

He also said The improvement of the blacks in body and mind, in the first instance of their mixture with the whites, has been observed by every one, and proves that their inferiority is not the effect merely of their condition of life Notes on the State of Virginia

Which for some reason makes me think that he felt that Blacks were inferior.


>It also appears that the reason the Continental Congress changed John
>Locke's declaration about "life, liberty and property" being sacrosanct into
>"life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" in the Declaration
>was due to unease over people being property.

I accept that there was a lot of ambivalence about slavery and the treatment of slaves, however I don't see that this contradicts my comment on perceptions of inferiority.

>>They knew guns could fire at most nine shots a minute,
>>I also believe this to be not so.

>A gun that could have fired nine rounds in a minute
>in that day would have been such a huge advance
>. . . I think firing two rounds in
>a minute was as good as could be envisioned.
>And rifling was only available in gun barrels as long
>as George Washington was tall, which is why so few
>people died from gunfire.
(N.B. A Revolutionary War general named Benedict Arnold figured out
>how to use the rebels' one company of backwoodsmen equipped
>with long rifles to crush a superior British army at
>Saratoga. Mind you, he was never given credit for
>this huge tactical breakthrough because of other events that happened in his life shortly thereafter.)

The Puckle gun which fired nine shots a minute was patented and had been demonstrated by 1718

>>They believed that the only way to protest was violently.
>>Gandhi and Bayard Rustin have shown us that is not so.

>Had Gandhi tried to do nonviolent protest in the 1700s, he
>would have been dead as a doorknob. Nonviolent protest
>can only succeed when mainstream violence becomes unacceptable.

I would argue that institutional violence towards unarmed groups will nearly always spark an outcry, unless the unarmed group has been demonised.

>>If you have arguments and beliefs then by all means state
>>them but don't say oh some bloke who died 300
>>years ago said x therefore it must be true.

>Is there anything that "must be
>true"? Even despite my
>belief in the Christian writings,
>this discussion makes me think
>of that to which Estee
>alluded:

>Pilate then went back inside the palace, summoned Jesus and asked
>him, “Are you the king of the Jews?”

>“Is that your own idea,” Jesus asked, “or did others talk
>to you about me?”

>“Am I a Jew?” Pilate replied. “It was your people and
>your chief priests who handed you over to me. What
>is it you have done?”


>Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it
>were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by
>the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place.”


>“You are a king, then!” said Pilate.

>Jesus answered, “You are right in saying I am a king.
>In fact, for this reason I was born, and for
>this I came into the world, to testify to the
>truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.”


>“What is truth?” Pilate asked.

>With this he went out again to the Jews and said,
>“I find no basis for a charge against him."

My point was that just because someone you respect said something it doesn't make it true, as to what must be true I would say Cogito ergo sum however it appears that the holographic view of the universe suggests that even that may not be so.

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kingfish 16088 desperate attention whore postings
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01-11-13, 09:46 AM (EST)
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187. "RE: Logistical question"
LAST EDITED ON 01-11-13 AT 09:48 AM (EST)

Just to stick my nose in: To discuss what blokes said/wrote 200+ years ago is apropos when what they said/wrote became law, as the second amendment to the US constitution did.

They may or may mot have been misled, correct, or moral, but it is part of the legal code under which we live, and is certainly an apt subject for discussion.

Nose back out.

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Starshine 4934 desperate attention whore postings
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01-11-13, 10:29 AM (EST)
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189. "RE: Logistical question"
I see what you mean, however as I understand it intent is not generally applicable in law, so they may intended the amendment to do x or y but the law is

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

And those are the only words that matter, interpretation down to the courts as and when issues come up.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

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kingfish 16088 desperate attention whore postings
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01-11-13, 11:53 AM (EST)
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190. "RE: Logistical question"
Once again I’ll opine on a subject on which I have no special knowledge.

You are correct. However it's not that black and white. The words you refer to are the basis for discussion, and the leaping off point for interpretation by the courts.

There are those that understand it and feel as you do, and there are those that insist on reading between the lines, and trying to over-interpret what seems (to me) to be perfectly clear language.

"..right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed".

That could not be more clearly stated. IMO.

That word "shall" is an absolute, and shouldn't be (and normally isn't) subject to interpretation.

And courts and legal scholars will often refer to the "context of the times", or what the writers "really" meant.

Sometimes constructionist views are handy (civil rights, abortion, etc) and sometimes literalist views hold sway. It's so difficult to amend the US Constitution that sometimes those shortcuts are the only way to introduce what some see as contemporary legal fairness.

My feeling is that in regard to gun laws, the constitutional language is so direct and clear that the only course we have for change is an amendment to change the actual wording of the second amendment. An amendment to amend an amendment, as it were.

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cahaya 18904 desperate attention whore postings
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01-11-13, 04:01 PM (EST)
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192. "RE: Logistical question"
"..right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed".

Which leaves out the preamble to it... "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state..."

I read this as "Because A, then B." What happens if A is no longer relevant? Is B still relevant?

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kingfish 16088 desperate attention whore postings
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01-11-13, 05:44 PM (EST)
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193. "RE: Logistical question"
LAST EDITED ON 01-11-13 AT 05:46 PM (EST)

Well, Starshine included it, so I didn't feel that it was left out at all.

But of course that's what causes the confusion.

But the fact is that it isn't a "because A, then B", statement, that's an inference, a reading of something into it that technically isn't there.

But what is indisputable is that the absolute "shall” is there, and that means (IMO) the preamble clause is just that, a preamble, not a conditional clause, the import of the sentence would be the same if the preamble was omitted.

There will be those who disagree, but to me, no matter how one feels about the gun control debate, that phrase is clear as a bell, and the only legal way to nullify that as a right of a US Citizen is to amend the US Constitution, despite Biden's bluster.

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dabo 25344 desperate attention whore postings
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01-12-13, 02:20 AM (EST)
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194. "RE: Logistical question"
LAST EDITED ON 01-12-13 AT 09:19 PM (EST)

It is well established that the militia preamble has no import in the right of the people to keep and bear arms. That doesn't mean it was without purpose.

The militia clause establishes nothing, but it refers back to language in the body of the Constitution itself (Article 1, Section 8) and the model for U.S. military forces defined in the previous Articles of Confederation, which the founders believed was a better model for the U. s. than the European examples of the time with which they were familiar.

Basically that model was that during peacetime the United States would maintain small military forces, as many as were needed for domestic and readiness purposes, relying on volunteers to swell the ranks as needed when war was necessary. They understood that a standing army was necessary to garrison forts for defensive purposes, for example: that the navy had to maintain a certain number of ships for readiness purposes, and deal with piracy, not to mention their diplomatic usefulness: that specialty areas like engineers and quartermasters and so on couldn't just magically appear when needed: that there had to be officers schooled for war: that a certain number of arsenals would have to be maintained -- stuff like that.

But basically no U.S. administration could just decide to go to war, the people had to support that war through popular agreement by volunteering to fight that war. Conscription, a draft, was the last thing the founders wanted, the absolute last resort.

Unfortunately, that model pretty much ceased to exist after World War 2 when the U.S. initially had to maintain high numbers of military forces occupying much of Europe, Asia, and Pacific areas, and then got involved in a Cold War with the USSR and some proxy wars by extention. Though the post-Vietnam step back to all volunteer militaries did restore it partially.

And Americans still maintain a tradition of volunteering when they see an actual need to go to war. After 9/11/01, even when the actual enemy was still unknown, the recruitment centers were flooded with volunteers. Same as after the Pearl Harbor attack on 12/7/41 and other examples throughout U.S. history.

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kidflash212 3854 desperate attention whore postings
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01-12-13, 03:36 PM (EST)
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199. "RE: Logistical question"
That could not be more clearly stated. IMO.

That word "shall" is an absolute, and shouldn't be (and normally isn't) subject to interpretation.

Well the First Amendment reads like this:

'Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances'

Doesn't mean you can yell "Fire" in a crowed theatre. So even the Freedom of Speech is not an absolute.

Under an absolute interpretation you could say a drunken, angry man storming into a gun store demanding a gun "NOW!" is a person whose right to keep and bear arms should not be infringed. I think a waiting period serves the greater good.


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kingfish 16088 desperate attention whore postings
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01-12-13, 07:52 PM (EST)
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200. "RE: Logistical question"
Good point, esp. in regard to laws that affect religion. The wording of that phrase is a bit murky, but the word "shall" is there, and should carry more weight that the courts have afforded it. IMO.

I don't equate a prohibition to create panic in a crowd to the abridgment of free speech, but the courts do sometimes forget that "shall" is an absolute.

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newsomewayne 9065 desperate attention whore postings
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01-11-13, 00:40 AM (EST)
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181. "RE: Logistical question"
Ayak did a pretty good job showing the silliness of your assumptions about what was at the time, so I'll skip to what you asked for. My argument is the reason for my quotes, and that is to show that the same fears of a too powerful government are the same today as they were then.

The second amendment is not about hunters or personal protection from criminals, though it does a fine job in that regard. The second amendment is about protection of the people from the potential of government.

Our government functions only at the consent of the governed. The government must be afraid of its people, not the opposite. Without that fear, a government is free to grant itself any power it chooses. And without our weapons, what is left to instill that fear in our government? It was said then, because it was true then. It's said again today, because it is still just as true.

BTW, it's less than 250 years, not 300 since these things were said, let alone since the blokes who said them died. But you've been showing less than accurate historical knowledge on other things, so I guess that is to be expected.

Besides, I think your opinion is a little biased and untrustworthy in this regard. If our founding fathers hadn't had these beliefs and other similar rebellious ideals, it could be most of us would have to be calling you Lord or Duke or something right now, eh, Redcoat?

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Starshine 4934 desperate attention whore postings
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01-11-13, 04:43 AM (EST)
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186. "RE: Logistical question"
LAST EDITED ON 01-11-13 AT 04:51 AM (EST)

And I believe that I have refuted AyaKs points.

The government must be afraid of its people, not the opposite. Without that fear, a government is free to grant itself any power it chooses. And without our weapons, what is left to instill that fear in our government? It was said then, because it was true then. It's said again today, because it is still just as true.

OK this then is your point.

I disagree, I don't want my government to be afraid of me, I want it to represent and respect me, however I have to respect the fact that it should also represent and respect everyone in the country (inasmuch as that is possible).

The problem for me is that if people have an expectation that they can take up arms against the government (and Bill Bryson tells me that this is only legal in New Hampshire) then at what point do they do so?

A lot of Americans (Including my Great-Aunt who lives in Virginia) seem to feel that "Obamacare" is a strike against individual freedom, in general it appears that Republicans feel that the economy should be rescued by reducing the cost of government and that taxes should not be increased, whereas again in general Democrats feel that there should be a balance between taxes and cost cutting. A lot of Democrats appear to feel disenfranchised regarding the House of Representatives because of the way the constituencies have been drawn.

None of these have yet caused an insurrection, despite the words that are being thrown about. At what point do you and your neighbours decide enough is enough?

Another issue is that with your country being so large and so diverse it is very unlikely that there would be a mass rising against the government, instead any rising would cause the governments supporters to rise as well and there would be a civil war.

Also if one overthrows a government who takes their place? With the Arab spring there has been an amount of pressure from the West regarding democracy and freedom, but if it is the west doing the revolting then how can you be sure that the solution isn't worse than the problem?

Besides, I think your opinion is a little biased and untrustworthy in this regard. If our founding fathers hadn't had these beliefs and other similar rebellious ideals, it could be most of us would have to be calling you Lord or Duke or something right now, eh, Redcoat?

Haven't you heard? The Empire ended quite a while ago, generally without gunfire.

ed. Sorry I meant 200 years not 300, I think my fingers are playing up

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newsomewayne 9065 desperate attention whore postings
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01-11-13, 03:59 PM (EST)
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191. "RE: Logistical question"
Haven't you heard? The Empire ended quite a while ago, generally without gunfire.

Okay, so that part was a little tongue-in-cheek. But at the same time, I've got to say that while the empire may have died with little gunfire, the fall began with a lot of gunfire from us.

And I believe that I have refuted AyaKs points.

I'll let you two debate those points, if you wish. I wouldn't have gone the way Ayak did. Since your argument was to invalidate a person's stance on one issue based on their stance or belief for a completely separate issue, I had planned to bring a list of smart, influential people who also believed in dumb or disproven ideas and ask if we should ignore everything they did, as well. When Ayak responded, I abandoned the list, but two I were going to use were Aristotle and Einstein. But in the end, it doesn't matter because your objections are irrelevant. Case in point, I think Samuel L. Jackson is a racist thug, but I can completely enjoy his movies and give him credit on his thespian skills and knowledge. I can separate the two issues.

Now, on to more important matters.

I disagree, I don't want my government to be afraid of me, I want it to represent and respect me

An admirable desire, but ultimately a wish for Fantasyland politics. The government is only as good as the people who run it. Call me cynical, but I feel the people in the federal government who respect the people they supposedly serve are too few and far between. There is no carrot to move the mule of government and, without an armed populace, there is certainly no stick. The argument will never be framed this way, but gun control is not about safety or justice. It is about authority and power. "The People" can "march" from here to Timbuktu, but when the power of the people is surrendered to the government, then the authority of the people is soon to be surrendered to the government, as well. More on this below.

The problem for me is that ...at what point do they {take up arms against the government}?

An unanswerable question. That's only something that each individual can answer for hirself. I suppose that when one reaches that point, one hopes that others are at that point as well, or they can find some who have already reached that point. And as for what happens if such actions were successful, I think that has no bearing on such a decision to take action. If what you have is unacceptable, fear of what might be is a cowardly reason to remain. If you don't believe me, go visit a battered women's shelter. Should they have stayed just to avoid an unknown future?

Now that we've addressed your objections, let's look at some of mine. Are these bans, laws and confiscations necessary or even a worthy endeavor?

I decided to look at some murder statistics and see what they have to say about it. I found this:

First, from the Dept. of Justice, a list of murder weapons used from 1965 to 2009. As you'd expect, guns account for the majority of murders committed. Something I did notice was that regardless of total murders committed, the % by guns hovers around the 67% mark.

In this article that calls out Rahm "never let a good crises go to waste" Emanuel for his stance on victim disarmament, it is said that from 1965 to 2010, "Some 2,956 people have been killed in 646 mass shootings over this 35-year period, with a mass shooting defined by the FBI as one in which four or more people (not including the shooter) are killed in a single incident and typically in a single location. FBI homicide data show no discernible trend in the number of mass shootings or victims during that time." This is equal to 85 people a year killed in mass killings. Now, the true tragedy in murder is the loss of life. Assuming all lives have an equal right to exist, can you say that 85 murders at one time are more tragic than murder of one 85 times? Or 30 at once over 30 separately?

Something else to glean from these numbers is the practicality and effect of proposed bans. The call for this action stems from the high visibility of the mass murders. But the <3000 killed over this 35 year period is less than 1% of all murders during that time. Way less. Visible, yes. Tragic, yes. A major contributor to murder statistics, arguably, no. So why go to all the trouble of gun control future victim disarmament? To make ourselves feel better. To ease our guilt, even when that guilt is misguided. It's an emotional response. Emotions are great for motivation. They are terrible for judgment.

Another set of data I find interesting is from the FBI. This huge call-to-arms (pun intended) by the left is for ridding ourselves of "assault rifles" and automatic weapons (which already are banned). Again, the question is will this have an real effect? This data from 2011 shows state by state the total murders and by which type of weapon. Out of 58 50 states, one territory, and D.C., in only two cases do we find murders by rifle or shotgun exceeds murders by knife or blade. West Virginia and Michigan. And tons more are committed by handguns. So shouldn't we be looking to ban handguns? I'm sure this mother would disagree. And banning knives? Only a certifiable moron would propose that, right?

And as an exercise in logic, let's ask when did most of these mass murderers stop their rampage? When they realized what they were doing was wrong? When someone asked them to stop? No. They stopped when someone with a gun showed up. When someone had the means and desire to oppose them, they stopped.

Now all of that is based on my objections based on the reaction of the proggies. But let's go back to my objections based on the potential abuses of a government. Any government. Any. Government. En. knee. Government.

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Starshine 4934 desperate attention whore postings
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01-12-13, 09:21 PM (EST)
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201. "RE: Logistical question"
My comment on the Empire was intended as tongue in cheek as well, as I hope was your suggestion that the American Revolution had any impact on the Empire.

By merely quoting people and not interpreting their quotes you are implying And X said that so it must be correct I think that pointing out that X was not perfect and therefore we cannot take their words as an end to an argument is valid.

The government is only as good as the people who run it.

A valid point, however if one lives in a democracy then one decides who runs it. If you don't like it join the party and change it. This is what the Tea-Party people have done.


I must admit that this debate always makes me think of old joke about the Irishman who when asked for directions said "Well if I were you I wouldn't start from here."


On Murder weapons for some reason this took me to who does the murdering? And the UK (p17) and US figures look (to me) surprisingly different




UK US
Spouse 21.30% 5.49%
Family 15.65% 8.25%
Known 25.25% 29.71%
Stranger 24.29% 12.45%
Unknown 13.50% 44.11%

Which seems to suggest don't marry a Brit! Or more seriously if we assume that most of the unknown killers are also strangers to the victim then the US stranger rate is quite a bit higher, more analysis is needed to determine if this is because of cultural differences or firearm availability (or both).

I haven't said (because in instances when it would be appropriate it would be rather inappropriate) but I do get frustrated by concentrations on mass killings, any parent whose child has died is going to feel as bad as they possibly can, I don't think there are degrees of grief in this. The difference will probably be survivors guilt. However whilst each death is no more tragic than any other death of a similar individual in the case of mass killings there is an additional horror that each death is an extra death caused by someone choosing to kill individuals.

The practicality of a ban is where any restriction on gun ownership falls down, we can compare murder rates, however again we have cultural differences to take into account, if a genie were to remove guns from the US does that mean that the murder rate would drop to that of Japan or China? We will never know, and we have to start from where we are.

I would generally agree that the previous UK Government were certifiable morons, however I happen to agree with them that if someone is carrying a knife (not including a penknife) they should have a damned good reason for doing so.

My impression has been that a lot of these rampages have stopped when the killers main gun has jammed, and that they then use a secondary weapon to kill themselves, however I have not looked at that.

1) Pravda - Sorry but Stanislav Mishin idolises the US right wing to such a degree I cannot take his opinion seriously, if you want a good laugh read his articles on why the USA is a Marxist state.

2) PRC - I read the article, and whilst it does cherrypick facts the main suggestion is that the more guns there are the more people get shot, which seems reasonable to me.

3) Fox News - Sorry, cannot watch the video, however this Executive Order thing seems odd to me. There is no real basis for it in your constitution but it can only be overturned by a supermajority in Congress? It appears that Executive Orders have been issued since 1785 so I would suggest that if the people who agreed with the 2nd Amendment had no issues with them then it must be OK for the President to do this.

I think that we will never reach a point where the populace being armed or unarmed will make a difference in a popular uprising, my understanding is that you feel that the populace being armed is a check on a government becoming too totalitarian, I think we shall have to agree to disagree on this one.

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newsomewayne 9065 desperate attention whore postings
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01-14-13, 11:27 PM (EST)
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203. "RE: Logistical question"
By merely quoting people and not interpreting their quotes you are implying And X said that so it must be correct

No, I am saying this is what people who wrote the 2nd amendment said and I agree with them.

however if one lives in a democracy then one decides who runs it. If you don't like it join the party and change it.

No, not one. Every.one. Everyone decides who runs it. And unfortunately, not everyone is as smart as me.

however I happen to agree with them that if someone is carrying a knife (not including a penknife) they should have a damned good reason for doing so.

This is off topic, but if I want to carry a knife, it's nobodys business but my own.

Pravda

You have me at an advantage on what this guy's opinions are, but it was his take on how guns were removed from the citizenry after the Communist takeover that interested me.

PRC

Really? One of the world's most stringent totalitarian government and biggest violator of human rights says that our citizens have too many guns (with which to resist our government should they follow the same path as China's) and you bypass all that absurdity to go with fewer guns means fewer dead? Wow.

As I was showing in the preivous post, once you get past the shock and the emotions, there is no sound, logical reasoning for the types of bans and confiscations that are being talked about. There are plenty of good reasons to continue to allow citizens to keep them. This isn't about saving lives, it's about power. Murders by handgun astronomically outweigh murders by other weapons. If it were about saving lives, the discussion would be about 100% removal of all guns, no matter the style, caliber, or purpose.

One last thing, here is an article about Piers Morgan interviewing Ben Shapiro about this very issue. It includes video of the whole interview. I hope you can watch this video. Ben argues many of the same points I have.

http://www.humanevents.com/2013/01/11/cnn-host-obliterated-during-interview-malfunction/

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dabo 25344 desperate attention whore postings
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01-15-13, 02:50 AM (EST)
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204. "RE: Logistical question"
LAST EDITED ON 01-15-13 AT 09:57 PM (EST)

No, I am saying this is what people who wrote the 2nd amendment said ...

Rep. Fisher Ames
Rep. John Baptista Ashe
Rep. Abraham Baldwin
Sen. Richard Bassett
Rep. Egbert Benson
Rep. Theodorick Bland
Rep. Timothy Bloodworth
Rep. Elias Boudinot
Rep. Benjamin Bourne
Rep. John Brown
Rep. Aedanus Burke
Sen. Pierce Butler
Rep. Lambert Cadwalader
Sen. Charles Carroll
Rep. Daniel Carroll
Rep. George Clymer
Rep. Isaac Coles
Rep. Benjamin Contee
Sen. Tristram Dalton
Sen. Philemon Dickinson
Sen. Oliver Ellsworth
Sen. Jonathan Elmer
Sen. William Few
Rep. Thomas Fitzsimons
Rep. William Floyd
Rep. Abiel Foster
Sen. Theodore Foster
Rep. George Gale
Rep. Elbridge Gerry
Rep. William B. Giles
Rep. Nicholas Gilman
Rep. Benjamin Goodhue
Sen. William Grayson
Rep. Samuel Griffin
Rep. Jonathan Grout
Sen. James Gunn
Rep. Thomas Hartley
Rep. John Hathorn
Sen. Benjamin Hawkins
Sen. John Henry
Rep. Daniel Hiester
Rep. Daniel Huger
Rep. Benjamin Huntington
Sen. Ralph Izard
Rep. James Jackson
Sen. William S. Johnson
Sen. Samuel Johnston
Sen. Rufus King
Sen. John Langdon
Rep. John Laurance
Rep. Richard Bland Lee
Sen. Richard Henry Lee
Rep. George Leonard
Rep. Samuel Livermore
Sen. William Maclay
Rep. James Madison
Rep. George Mathews
Sen. James Monroe
Rep. Andrew Moore
Sen. Robert Morris
Rep. Frederick Muhlenberg
Rep. Peter Muhlenberg
Rep. John Page
Rep. Josiah Parker
Rep. George Partridge
Sen. William Paterson
Sen. George Read
Rep. James Schureman
Sen. Philip Schuyler
Rep. Thomas Scott
Rep. Theodore Sedgwick
Rep. Joshua Seney
Rep. John Sevier
Rep. Roger Sherman
Rep. Peter Silvester
Rep. Thomas Sinnickson
Rep. William Smith
Rep. William L. Smith
Sen. Joseph Stanton, Jr
Rep. John Steele
Rep. Michael J. Stone
Sen. Caleb Strong
Rep. Jonathan Sturges
Rep. Thomas Sumter
Rep. George Thatcher
Rep. Jonathan Trumbull, Jr.
Rep. Thomas Tudor Tucker
Rep. Jeremiah Van Rensselaer
Rep. John Vining
Rep. Jeremiah Wadsworth
Sen. John Walker
Rep. Alexander White
Rep. Hugh Williamson
Sen. Paine Wingate
Rep. Henry Wynkoop

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Estee 55195 desperate attention whore postings
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01-12-13, 12:30 PM (EST)
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196. "In the interests of saving time."
Can we just pretend we already went from the 'The government has guns, so I need guns to feel as if I have a true voice' argument all the way to 'The government has nukes, so I need someone to refine some uranium for me' one and got about as far as usual?
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106. "RE: Logistical question"
From what I've read about the mall shooter was his AR-15 was jammed and he was trying to clear it and the CCW guy pulled out his weapon but was behind a pillar. He doesn't know if he saw him or not and never called out to the shooter. Then he took his own life but we don't know if he saw this guy or "heard or feared" the cops were coming like the Conn. shooter did and so he ended his own life.


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Snidget 43862 desperate attention whore postings
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12-18-12, 10:09 PM (EST)
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107. "RE: Logistical question"
LAST EDITED ON 12-18-12 AT 10:10 PM (EST)

My problem is a lot of the pro-gun, more guns, need way more guns blogs are promoting this as a "confrontation".

Sounds like this guy is a responsible guy who would have done pretty much the same thing without the gun.

1. Take Cover
2. Stay Covered
3. If you can peek out to assess the situation, peek, but mostly
4. Remain in the safe spot you got yourself into unless there is a clear way to escape.

Now I can see the point that if the gunman had come around the pillar looking for him he could have defended himself.

I just worry about the ones who have any tendency to feel invincible because they have a gun and hear repeatedly that crazed gun-men will back down and kill themselves if anyone shows them a gun.

Usually it seems to me the killing themselves comes the second they are certain that living out their fantasy of killing as many people as possible is about to end. The big gun jams too much, the cops are coming, too many people are hiding so no more easy targets.

Now some have a post-shooting scenario they want to play out like that Norwegian guy where the whole speaking his views to the court system seems almost to be the point of the plan.

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12-19-12, 01:48 AM (EST)
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108. "RE: Logistical question"
LAST EDITED ON 12-19-12 AT 02:02 AM (EST)

Yes, in most of the cases we've seen so far in the last few years, suicide follows what is meant to be a personal, not a political, statement. The last thing those shooters wanted was to go through the whole trial of what would follow and rot (and face the uncertainty and dangers) behind bars or drugged out in mental institution. For them it was literally, finis. The Norwegian, on the other hand, had a political agenda that he wanted to continue to propagate even afterwards.

I get the pro-gun position, but I don't agree with it. I know for certain that, as a skilled rifle and pistol target shooter on the range, I'd far rather have a firearm in my possession in this kind of situation than not. It gives me options I otherwise wouldn't have in a situation that I hope I would never have to face. Having to either try to stay safe or try to take down a gunman in attempting to save others with my bare hands is certainly reducing my own chances at helping myself and others survive. On the other hand, I think that introducing firearms into schools (apart from a trained law enforcement officer, which is a costly solution) creates more risks than it mitigates.

Either way, "defending schools and malls" is just a band-aid. We need to address the accessibility to weapons of mass destruction (i.e., semi-auto large mag weapons), mental health treatment, and perhaps most of all, the culture of gun violence which is prevalent in every facet of our society, web, media, film, music, print, and on the streets.

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kingfish 16088 desperate attention whore postings
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12-19-12, 10:50 AM (EST)
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110. "RE: Logistical question"
LAST EDITED ON 12-19-12 AT 11:39 AM (EST)

Rookie mistakes.

"The last thing those shooters wanted was to go through the whole trial of what would follow and rot (and face the uncertainty and dangers) behind bars or drugged out in mental institution."

You are evaluating their thinking on a rational basis. I mean, who really knows what they're thinking? If they were anything close to rational, I believe that they would opt for death by police. Running out the front door with guns blazing into a police cross fire is bound to be easier than pulling the trigger on your own self. Would be for me. But then again, I can't put myself in their place either.

"I get the pro-gun position,..."

There are a myriad of pro-gun positions, some are not so disagreeable, and some are off the wall insane. If I understand you correctly, I agree with the rest of your statement, it would be unthinkable to have pistols in teacher's desks. Just insane. Children (especially IMO boy children), are far too curious and clever for that to not end in tragedy.

I partially disagree with your last statement, though. I think what we need to do is work this problem from the outside in. Identify those things that we can most easily agree on and get them accomplished, then identify the next practical steps to be taken. Right now, it seems that the availability of large capacity clips is a low hanging fruit, so let's ban them. Also Teflon coated bullets. Maybe tightening access to powerful ammo in general is an idea to explore.

Let's focus on specific and attainable goals in a stair step fashion, and quit positing wide ranging unspecific and impractical solutions. They just muddle up the situation and are more divisive than useful. And at this time, IMO, a semi-automatic weapons ban or a ban on rifle/pistol type weapons that have a military heritage might be an exercise in futility. The assault weapons ban that expired in 2004 wasn't IMO very useful, but it did expose the futility of that approach. Lesson learned, I hope.

This needs a systems engineering approach.

ETA: Here's a utopian gun control goal. Whith our present constitution this is unattainable, but as something to shoot (oops) for...

http://amanpour.blogs.cnn.com/2012/12/18/getting-a-gun-in-japan/?hpt=hp_c4

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cahaya 18904 desperate attention whore postings
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12-19-12, 11:39 AM (EST)
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111. "RE: Logistical question"
You are evaluating their thinking on a rational basis.

No, neither mass murder nor suicide are rational, although in their mental illness it may seem rational to the person doing it.

When someone goes through the steps to plan a premeditated mass murder, there's an ending to that script in their minds. In many of these cases, the ending includes their own death, whether it's by self-inflicted suicide or suicide by cop. The first of those may be more difficult to do, but it is the most reliable. Attempting suicide by cop could easily end up in being captured (which could be the least desired outcome). In addition to this, self-inflicted suicide leaves the method and timing of one's death within one's own control, and the desire to control the whole situation is one of the motivations that lead to these kind of actions.

Let's focus on specific and attainable goals in a stair step fashion

I agree with the basic idea of achieving what it attainable, the "low hanging fruit" as you put it. This may mitigate the damage caused in terms of the number of lives lost, but it does not get to the source of the problem, that being mental health of youth in an increasingly demanding society which condones violence in its arts and media, combined with ready access to highly lethal weapons. It's like a match and a container of gasoline. By themselves, they're harmless, but all it takes is for the match to get lit (a mentally ill person to go off) and tossed in to make a big bang with nothing left.

Even if you remove guns from the equation, there are still other means to inflict harm if anyone is desperate enough (explosives, knives, poison gas, etc. have all been used).

And there's a part of me that says that there will always be people on the fringe with mental health issues that don't get properly addressed, and some of them are going to fall through the cracks, no matter what we do. It's a problem that is not going to ever be fully solved, although we can lessen the problem and/or its impact.

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byoffer 15808 desperate attention whore postings
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12-19-12, 12:39 PM (EST)
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112. "RE: Logistical question"
Cahaya - I have a question for you. You mentioned in another recent thread about being held up some number of years ago by knife. Given your comment above about being skilled with a gun, would you have wanted to be carrying a gun to protect yourself? I suspect you were in a "non-carry location", but just wonder if that would have made you feel safer.

I am not a skilled gun person, and definitely would not have felt safer having one (and having to dig it out to try to protect myself).

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cahaya 18904 desperate attention whore postings
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12-19-12, 02:21 PM (EST)
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113. "RE: Logistical question"
Good question, and you have to take in context to where I lived at the time, in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, where private ownership of firearms is prohibited except through special permits.

Even if I did have a firearm and permit there to carry, I wouldn't have been carrying a firearm the night we were held up (close to the front gate of our house). So few criminals in Malaysia use firearms and the few that do are into far more serious crimes than street holdups.

Having said that, I certainly would have preferred to have a firearm in that situation. Just showing it would have been enough for them to want to flee while I would take down their motorcycle plate number and their descriptions. I'm not sure they would have willingly surrendered themselves to me holding a firearm, knowing they'd certainly be facing jail time in a Malaysian prison and they almost certainly would have fled anyway (in which case I wouldn't fire a shot, only in actual self-defense).

After the incident, I spoke with the police chief in the district that we lived in. He wanted to speak with me personally, given that I was a foreign national and I had done computer systems work with the Malaysian police in the past. I have a permanent residence visa there, so technically I'm eligible to apply for a permit. He strongly advised against the idea of people carrying firearms, because that might even make you a target (to steal your gun and ammunition) instead of protecting you. We had our house broken into by professional thieves once in the 20 years we lived there, and I'm glad I didn't have a gun on the premises to be stolen too.

And this goes back to what I posted some time earlier. In a country like Malaysia or Singapore where private ownership of firearms is banned (apart from very hard to get special permits), I feel much safer there than in many other countries in the world. Armed robbery and murder with firearms are almost non-existent, and if someone does attempt to harm you, you have a fighting chance or can make a run for it.

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jbug 16685 desperate attention whore postings
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12-19-12, 03:33 PM (EST)
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114. "RE: Logistical question"
and for the criminals who are caught with firearms?
I'll bet they get more than a nice cozy cell w/ internet tv to spend their time in, right?
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cahaya 18904 desperate attention whore postings
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12-19-12, 03:45 PM (EST)
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116. "RE: Logistical question"
LAST EDITED ON 12-19-12 AT 03:50 PM (EST)

Jbug, illegal possession and use of a firearm in the conduct of a crime is a capital crime in Malaysia and Singapore. They hang. That is, if they aren't shot dead by the police first.

Death penalty: Possession of firearms - Section 57 Internal Security Act (1960), Malaysia. Death sentences are carried out by hanging as provided in Section 281 of the Criminal Procedure Code.

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jbug 16685 desperate attention whore postings
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12-19-12, 03:34 PM (EST)
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115. "RE: Another mass shooting ... this time in CT"
take your pick....

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/12/18/utah-sixth-grader-found-with-unloaded-gun-in-class-reportedly-says-parents/

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2012/12/sixth-grader-gun-school-utah.html

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Estee 55195 desperate attention whore postings
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12-19-12, 07:28 PM (EST)
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117. "More idiots, more agendas."
These two have one major thing in common.

http://www.mediaite.com/online/are-too-many-women-to-blame-for-sandy-hook-death-toll-one-national-review-contributor-thinks-so/

http://www.mediaite.com/print/ny-times-best-selling-religious-author-blames-ct-shootings-on-jon-stewart/

If more people died, they'd just argue it proved their point.

Any bets that they're both rooting for it?

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Snidget 43862 desperate attention whore postings
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12-19-12, 08:43 PM (EST)
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118. "RE: More idiots, more agendas."
Um, so, um there should have been a whole lot more school shootings when I was a kid because...um. Well I think there was a time it was so unmanly to be an elementary school teacher you never saw a single one. I didn't have any male teachers until jr. high and there weren't even all that common in high school. We had a fair number but not all that many.

Not that they are plenty of male elementary school teachers today, but teaching is girly work, especially in the lower grades. How do you get members of the he-man club to be girly teacher types? What is he going to do? Raise the salaries to the amount that will be manly enough? Manly enough to wipe noses?

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cahaya 18904 desperate attention whore postings
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12-19-12, 09:10 PM (EST)
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119. "RE: More idiots, more agendas."
And this quote: “The Lord God Almighty is a gentleman...”

But apparently not manly enough.

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Snidget 43862 desperate attention whore postings
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12-19-12, 10:59 PM (EST)
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120. "RE: More idiots, more agendas."
Besides, if a school has a lot of husky 12 year old boys in the fourth grade, they may have bigger problems than wondering if there happens to be a crazy in their town.

Funny how the husky adult males at Fort Bragg still ended up dying from bullets. I mean they aren't too husky, they have to be physically fit, but surely they are husky enough to throw a decent tackle at someone, right?

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Estee 55195 desperate attention whore postings
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12-20-12, 08:51 PM (EST)
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121. "Join the Army, see the world..."
...join the National Guard, see P.S. 43.

http://www.mediaite.com/online/sen-barbara-boxer-proposes-using-national-guardsman-to-protect-schools/

Oh, AyaK...

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Snidget 43862 desperate attention whore postings
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12-21-12, 12:31 PM (EST)
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122. "NRA press conference"
LAST EDITED ON 12-21-12 AT 12:33 PM (EST)

I tried to listen but it made me feel all stabby.

I did not know that the gun industry makes no money what so ever off the manufacture and sales of guns. Only the entertainment industry does. Only mentally ill people kill good guys with guns. Not one incidence of gun violence could ever be committed by the sane. It's all the mentally ill people. Gee you mean that since the vast majority of Australia is a gun free zone they mus have a school shooting this bad every single month.

I'm really not anti gun but to pretend that the gun industry and those who protect and defend it can't in any way have anything to do with our love affair with the power of the gun.

At least I hope when this becomes a police state with an armed guard on every corner and in every class room we won't lose too many people from friendly fire. I better start working on some upper body endurance so I can keep my hands out and up every minute of every day so no one mistakes me for the bad guy every time the shooting starts.

And I couldn't listen long enough to hear if we need every gun to be equipped with high capacity magazines. After all you never know how many bad guys you will see each day and you can't risk running out of good guy bullets. After all no legally bought gun or magazine ever gets into the hands of a monster.

And yet I do want gun ownership by civilians. I just wanna see that well regulated part of the second ammedment get a tiny tiny bit of respect.

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PepeLePew13 24731 desperate attention whore postings
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12-21-12, 01:43 PM (EST)
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123. "RE: NRA press conference"
Quote from the NRA press conference. "This is the beginning of a serious conversation. We won't be taking any questions."
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Snidget 43862 desperate attention whore postings
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12-21-12, 01:57 PM (EST)
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124. "RE: NRA press conference"
You mean one side talks while the other side is in their room, making no noise and pretending they are not there, isn't a conversation?
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kingfish 16088 desperate attention whore postings
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12-21-12, 03:43 PM (EST)
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125. "RE: NRA press conference"
THat's how it is in Washington.

It's a new world.

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12-21-12, 04:55 PM (EST)
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130. "Translation"
"This is the beginning of a serious conversation. We won't be taking any questions."

Translation in gun-speak:

A serious conversation piece, with a silencer.

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12-21-12, 04:00 PM (EST)
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126. "RE: NRA press conference"
Please tell me that was a sick form of satire.


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Estee 55195 desperate attention whore postings
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12-21-12, 04:14 PM (EST)
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127. "RE: NRA press conference"
No, and this wasn't either.

http://www.realitytvworld.com/news/santa-suspended-for-sandy-hook-comment-1032158.php

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Snidget 43862 desperate attention whore postings
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12-21-12, 04:38 PM (EST)
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128. "RE: NRA press conference"
Sadly, no.

But it made a bit more sense when I read that a fair percentage of the NRA board are gun and ammo manufacturers and some feel the point of the NRA isn't to protect the rights of gun owners so much as to make sure the gun industry makes more money.

See the more you scare people that everyone else is a bad guy and the only way you will be safe is to be a good guy that is always armed to the teeth at all times and in all places...well the more guns and ammo you sell, especially of ammo and guns bigger and badder than the last gun you saw anyone with.

If your point is to sell more guns then you are going to blame everything but the number of guns sold every year and try to scare everyone into needing one.

And in the "please tell me this is satire news"...Sandy Hook was a false flag operation. http://community.realitytvworld.com/boards/DCForumID6/37722.shtml#139 for the trope on that.

See the government sold the kids into sexual slavery and this is all just a ploy to steal your guns from you. And if you wanna see the logic that gets you there, you will have to google it yourself. I just can't go back to find the links.

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Estee 55195 desperate attention whore postings
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12-21-12, 04:49 PM (EST)
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129. "RE: NRA press conference"
Start looking around the Honey Boo-Boo fan sites, right?

Same as the alcohol and tobacco industries: deaths are just part of the profit line.

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cahaya 18904 desperate attention whore postings
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12-21-12, 05:04 PM (EST)
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132. "RE: NRA press conference"
Please tell me that was a sick form of satire.

No, but there was an element of Estire in it.

Estire (n., org.: conjugation of a board name and a word): The stark, naked truth which many people willingly choose to be blind to, because it's too ugly.

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HobbsofMI 15959 desperate attention whore postings
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12-21-12, 04:57 PM (EST)
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131. "RE: NRA press conference"
What about at the bus stops? on the bus? off the bus until in the school? outdoor recess? after school to the bus? off the bus to home? after school activities?

Do we really want to make our schools an armed prison camp like?


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Snidget 43862 desperate attention whore postings
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12-21-12, 05:19 PM (EST)
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133. "RE: NRA press conference"
Too bad he was calling for all the cops to be volunteers. I mean just think how many people you could put back to work with all the armed guards we need for all the schools and buses as well as one at every intersection in America.

I mean would you want your kid to ride his bike two blocks to a friends house without at least a couple of snipers along the way ready to take out any bad guys.

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cahaya 18904 desperate attention whore postings
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12-22-12, 04:29 AM (EST)
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146. "Guess Who"
An old song from my teens, with a rubber duck.

American hunter, bring ‘em up the north side
Guns, guns, guns
Run, take the money, here’s a bullet for your boyfriend
Guns, guns, guns
Eagle all gone, and no more caribou
Guns, guns, guns
You be the red king, I’ll be the yellow pawn

God speed Mother Nature
Never really wanted to say good-bye

Shoot a few, knock ‘em down, cost you half a buck now
Guns, guns, guns
Babe give you kisses if you hit a rubber duck now
Guns, guns, guns
You be the red king, I’ll be the yellow pawn
Guns, guns, guns
Eagle all gone, and no more caribou

God speed Mother Nature
Never really wanted to say good-bye

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Estee 55195 desperate attention whore postings
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12-22-12, 09:50 AM (EST)
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147. "Tabloid reactions."
Post: Gun Nut!

Daily News: Craziest Man On Earth

Of course, the Post had to go ruin the conjunction by having a columnist compare it to 'pro-abortion' extremists refusing to compromise their 'values' by passing mandatory parental consent laws, but for one whole front page...

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Estee 55195 desperate attention whore postings
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12-21-12, 05:36 PM (EST)
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134. "The National Enquirer article."
...well, that was odious.

I refuse to quote, link, or summarize. Someone else can sue.

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cahaya 18904 desperate attention whore postings
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12-21-12, 10:25 PM (EST)
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141. "RE: The National Enquirer article."
Try as I may, I couldn't find what you might be referencing to. The last Enquirer blurb on the CT shooting goes back to 12/14. Maybe they pulled it?

Give me a word or two to throw into the Google lottery bin to see what comes up.

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12-21-12, 10:49 PM (EST)
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144. "RE: The National Enquirer article."
Found this
Story about one of the stories

and they have the cover on their facebook page
Cover

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cahaya 18904 desperate attention whore postings
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12-21-12, 11:53 PM (EST)
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145. "RE: The National Enquirer article."
Woah! It seems like perhaps he found out mom wanted to have him committed. And apparently not only did he have a site, he also posted some of his intentions on some message boards.

Yikes.

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Estee 55195 desperate attention whore postings
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12-21-12, 07:03 PM (EST)
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135. "Marlton NJ to place armed guards in schools."