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"How/Why Did Kris Win?"
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geekboy 1778 desperate attention whore postings
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05-22-09, 11:22 AM (EST)
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"How/Why Did Kris Win?"
Don't get me wrong, i'm quite happy that Kris pulled it off, but there has been so much discussion about "the upset", "Shocking AI Final", etc, that it thought it would be fun and informative for all of us to get together and hash out all the theories as to WHY he won, over the so-called favorite, Adam Lambert.

I'll start it off with an idea i had...

Could Kris' win have been helped because the judges/producers were so blatently hoping/pushing for Adam to win? Could the 'voter backlash' againt the overly obvious bias this year helped Kis win?

beekboy


"I think what Randy Travis was trying to say was 'What the hell was that?!'" - S. Cowell

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  Table of Contents

  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
 RE: How/Why Did Kris Win? Snidget 05-22-09 1
 RE: How/Why Did Kris Win? HistoryDetective 05-22-09 2
   RE: How/Why Did Kris Win? zazzy 05-22-09 3
       RE: How/Why Did Kris Win? seahorse 05-22-09 5
           RE: How/Why Did Kris Win? zazzy 05-22-09 6
               RE: How/Why Did Kris Win? Snidget 05-22-09 7
   RE: How/Why Did Kris Win? geekboy 05-22-09 9
 RE: How/Why Did Kris Win? zazzy 05-22-09 4
   RE: How/Why Did Kris Win? geekboy 05-22-09 8
       RE: How/Why Did Kris Win? Snidget 05-22-09 10
           RE: How/Why Did Kris Win? geekboy 05-22-09 11
               RE: How/Why Did Kris Win? Snidget 05-22-09 12
 RE: How/Why Did Kris Win? Belle Book 05-22-09 13
 RE: How/Why Did Kris Win? grit 05-22-09 14
   RE: How/Why Did Kris Win? zazzy 05-22-09 15
 Evidently.... nailbone 05-27-09 16
   RE: Evidently.... Ahtumbreez 05-27-09 17
   RE: Evidently.... Snidget 05-27-09 18
       RE: Evidently.... byoffer 05-28-09 24
   RE: Evidently.... zazzy 05-28-09 20
       RE: Evidently.... sica077 05-28-09 25
 RE: How/Why Did Kris Win? DoodleBug 05-27-09 19
   RE: How/Why Did Kris Win? mhdallas 05-28-09 21
       RE: How/Why Did Kris Win? zazzy 05-28-09 22
           RE: How/Why Did Kris Win? Snidget 05-28-09 23

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Snidget 43862 desperate attention whore postings
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05-22-09, 11:35 AM (EST)
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1. "RE: How/Why Did Kris Win?"
I think two main reasons, and for sake of argument I'm assuming two equally talented folks here even if they are quite different in style.

1. Over hyping Adam. Sure it may get them on the tour or into the last half of the season but there will be push back against the hype at some point.

In addition to the push back excessive certainty about the winner by the judges can make the fans more complacent. My favorite can't lose doesn't tend to make people vote, my favorite might lose will motivate people to vote.

2. Who gets the voters as each person leaves. Sure some people stop voting but a lot of people just move on to the next favorite.

A polarizing performer (the love 'em or hate 'em) isn't likely to keep picking up votes all the way to the end. At some point they have all the people that like them. Some one that is more middle of the road or inoffensive is more likely to get the votes of those that will keep voting until the end but lost their favorite along the way. I'll vote for the one I'm kind of meh on over the one I can't stand if I have to make a choice.

I also think there may also be a story arc reason for Kris's appeal.

Small town kid who has to work and struggle to get better each week just to make it.

vs

The polished performer who may do something new each week but didn't really get better as there wasn't really anything left to work on.

Idol built the mythos that they pluck regular people out of regular life and catapult them to super-stardom. Truth is you rarely find someone that isn't doing something musical with their life that makes it to the voting rounds, and ever rarer to get them on the tour. Whether it is playing in a bar band, or running the church music program most of the time people who can perform on stage have been doing it for awhile. Especially if they can perform under high stress situation.

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HistoryDetective 9516 desperate attention whore postings
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05-22-09, 11:46 AM (EST)
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2. "RE: How/Why Did Kris Win?"
You mean that it doesn't all boil down to Vote for the Worst?!


"We must scrupulously guard the civil rights and civil liberties of all our citizens, whatever their background. We must remember that any oppression, any injustice, any hatred, is a wedge designed to attack our civilization." --- Franklin Delano Roosevelt, 9 January 1940

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zazzy 4390 desperate attention whore postings
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05-22-09, 12:13 PM (EST)
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3. "RE: How/Why Did Kris Win?"
I think you meant that tongue in cheek, but VFTW couldn't get Amanda O into the top ten to make the tour last season. So how much clout do they really have?
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05-22-09, 12:33 PM (EST)
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5. "RE: How/Why Did Kris Win?"
Even if "vote for the worst" accounts for only one percent of total votes, I think this is huge in the early rounds.

At top 10, the last place vote getter may get like 5% of the total votes cast. 1% additional votes is huge at that time. At final 2 round the 1% additional votes from "vote for the worst" is not nearly as significant.

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zazzy 4390 desperate attention whore postings
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05-22-09, 12:36 PM (EST)
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6. "RE: How/Why Did Kris Win?"
That's my point--they should have an impact in the early rounds, but we have seen many instances of their early round picks getting booted, like Amanda O.

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Snidget 43862 desperate attention whore postings
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05-22-09, 12:47 PM (EST)
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7. "RE: How/Why Did Kris Win?"
LAST EDITED ON 05-22-09 AT 01:17 PM (EST)

Sometimes even a 1% boost is not going to be enough.

After all they do tend to vote for the people no one else wants to see stick around.

I do think sometimes, depending on circumstance, they can be the difference in which week someone leaves. I think Amanda was unlikely to make the tour no matter what and IMO lasted a week longer than she probably would have without them. I kinda felt sorry for her. I think after week one of the semis she wanted out of there, but her fans wouldn't let her go.

ETA: Basically I see it this way, when there is a reason for America to rally behind someone (either the bad was entertainingly bad, or they just want to keep someone in to spite Simon, etc.) I think the extra votes from VFTW probably helps to reinforce that and may make the difference in any given week.

VFTW will tend to stick with that person even if the next week they don't really give America a reason to keep them around. They usually don't choose anyone with long term staying power if they can help it. So you can't expect an early pick to make it to the finals or win.

Even though Amanda didn't make the tour, Megan did. So sometimes things work out and sometimes they don't. Heck people that shouldn't have stayed did before VFTW was founded. That was part of the reason they got going. I think they may make it happen a little more often than it would organically. Mostly they are just having fun for a rather twisted value of fun. I don't think they take themselves or their "mission" all that seriously.

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05-22-09, 12:49 PM (EST)
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9. "RE: How/Why Did Kris Win?"
I don't give VFTW any credit for doing anything that changes AI. People like to think they do, but give me proof.

I think VFTW is just a place people go to bash AI and that's fine.

geekboy


"I think what Randy Travis was trying to say was 'What the hell was that?!'" - S. Cowell

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05-22-09, 12:30 PM (EST)
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4. "RE: How/Why Did Kris Win?"
ITA that they totally overpimped Adam.

Danny, too. So, people became really invested in Danny. How different would things have been if the F3 were Adam/Allison/Kris?

Another thing the show did was restrict per usual the songs at F3 and F2. If they had allowed more contestants' choices, Adam would have had more of an opportunity to "make a moment". As it was, he peaked earlier around Mad World and Born to be Wild. Those were stand outs. After that it seemed like more of the same.

I think Adam should have come out and done an a capella song ala Bo Bice at F3 season 5, In A Dream.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmeS3v_w4Kk

Instead, he only got one chance in F3 and F2 to do one new song of his choosing. He's been quoted saying U2's One was not his thing. So when he had a chance he did a rock song, Cryin', to show what he wanted to be post idol. But it was more of what we had seen. It was not a grabber imo, one that played over and over in your head the way Mad World and Born to be Wild did. Kris's performance of Heartless stood out because earlier in the season Kanye had performed it as a rap song. He out-Kanyed Kanye!

I've read many comments on other boards that Adam seemed like he screamed a lot. He did put a lot of yowls in the last few songs he sang. He has the chops to do a capella. I think it would have made an AI moment, would have made a difference.

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geekboy 1778 desperate attention whore postings
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05-22-09, 12:48 PM (EST)
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8. "RE: How/Why Did Kris Win?"
In a way, i agree with you. Adam could have chosen somehting other than 'Cryin' and had a moment...like Kris did. I think the fact that he didn't choose more of a "moment" song when given the chance hurt him.

I think Kris' choice and performance of "Heartless" was a true game-changer for the final three. I compare it to Bo's acapella rendition of "In A Dream".

Simon said repeatedly that Adam was fearless. I think doing "Heartless" with just an acoustic guitar and a mic was Kris showing he was fearless. It was risky, it was a well-known current song that he chose to mix up completely. If that isn't fearless, what is?

Yes, there is a votes from the voted off people, there is the pimping, there is a story arc, but in the end i think - go figure - the actual vocals and performances count. What a concept. Again, I think "Heartless" helped Kris more than we give it credit for.

geekboy


"I think what Randy Travis was trying to say was 'What the hell was that?!'" - S. Cowell

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Snidget 43862 desperate attention whore postings
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05-22-09, 01:08 PM (EST)
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10. "RE: How/Why Did Kris Win?"
I don't know that you can plan it well, but I do think Kris managed to have all his moments late in the competition, which does help with that come from behind, had to work hard for it type of story arc. People do love that sort of thing and will vote for the underdog that really does seem to be trying hard to make it in the end.

Having those Idol moments late in the competition compared to Adam who had most of his earlier own will help. Kinda like singing last on a given night helps. Peaking too early is something I feel a lot of people on AI have done. You don't want your most memorable performance to be from the semifinals or the first couple of weeks.

But again, how much of that you can plan in advanced, I don't know. I think more often than not it is just what happens when people try to do their best with whatever gets tossed at them from week to week.

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geekboy 1778 desperate attention whore postings
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05-22-09, 01:31 PM (EST)
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11. "RE: How/Why Did Kris Win?"
I agree totally, but...

The only chance Idol contestants have to make their own 'moment' is on the rare occasion of having a 'contestants choice' song, which unfortunately is becoming more rare year after year.

So, in the final three they get that chance. Kris' brings out his version of "Heartless" which was a brilliant choice/arrangement and i contend helped him win in a BIG way.

Adam brings out "Cryin" which really does nothing for him. Adam had an equal chance of having a "moment". I really expected him to pull out something like Bowie's "Ziggy Stardust" or a performance-ready Queen song like "These Are The Days Of Our Lives"...but he does a pretty conventional Aerosmith song.

I think it had a large part in him coming in 2nd.

geekboy


"I think what Randy Travis was trying to say was 'What the hell was that?!'" - S. Cowell

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Snidget 43862 desperate attention whore postings
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05-22-09, 01:52 PM (EST)
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12. "RE: How/Why Did Kris Win?"
Unfortunately I think there is a lot of hind sight being 20/20 and the issue with what themes actually give someone an opportunity for their moment.

I'm not sure you can easily predict ahead of time which song is really going to be the one that people remember. If you are lucky it happens to come together near the end of the series and you did the right things to get to the end up until then.

So I don't know how much of Heartless at the right time was brilliance planning and how much was he's just lucky he did the right song at the right time.

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05-22-09, 04:51 PM (EST)
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13. "RE: How/Why Did Kris Win?"
I think it played a role in spurring Kris's fan base to really vote their hearts out, but there were other factors as well.

First, the teens and pre-teens are more likely to vote over and over, and are more likely to text. I should know -- I'm in my thirties, and I don't text -- although that's because I don't have a text phone. The teens and pre-teens may have been going more for Kris than for Adam, and if they were texting their votes (you don't get busy signals that way), they might have helped pull off the win.

Also, Kris would probably have picked up a lot of Danny voters. And of course, there are some who just would never vote for Adam one way or another. Some might be turned off by his probably being gay. Some might just be turned off by Adam's singing style -- like me. But it all adds up.


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05-22-09, 06:00 PM (EST)
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14. "RE: How/Why Did Kris Win?"
The one thing that everyone keeps forgetting to mention in this "How/Why Did Kris Win?" conversation is this: Kris is a really talented musician.

Okay, he doesn't have the vocal power that Adam has, but he still has a very good voice. Add that to the fact that he plays both piano and guitar really well AND he's a very talented musical arranger. He's a very well-rounded musician.

I agree with all the other reasons why Adam didn't win - backlash over judges pimping, Kris scooping up the Danny votes, and, yeah, the idiots who wouldn't vote for Adam because of who he is. Does it matter? No. Adam is a great singer and got a ton of exposure on AI and will have a great career.

Maybe, just maybe, the judges have finally learned their lesson about over-pimpage.

Sure, and maybe the tooth fairy is real...

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05-22-09, 06:10 PM (EST)
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15. "RE: How/Why Did Kris Win?"
LAST EDITED ON 05-22-09 AT 06:13 PM (EST)

Nicely said.

BTW, Kris's "No Boundaries" hit no. 1 on itunes. In fact he has three in the top 10--#1, #4 (Heartless) and #10 (Ain't No Sunshine). Adam has one song in the top ten, "Mad World", coming in at #6.

David Cook is number 7 with "Permanent".

Glee's cast is number 2 with "Don't Stop Beleiving".

Black Eyed Peas and Katy Perry are also in the top ten. That leaves just two spots for non AI/Fox related songs that were performed on their shows.

Danny has one solo in the top 100: "You Are So Beautiful" is number no 64; his duet with Kris is no. 94.

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05-27-09, 02:00 PM (EST)
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16. "Evidently...."
AT&T had something to do with it....

http://omg.yahoo.com/news/at-t-may-have-swayed-idol-outcome-to-favor-kris-allen/23028?nc



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05-27-09, 02:32 PM (EST)
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17. "RE: Evidently...."
If AI would limit the number of votes/texts then this wouldn't be a problem.


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Snidget 43862 desperate attention whore postings
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05-27-09, 02:40 PM (EST)
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18. "RE: Evidently...."
LAST EDITED ON 05-27-09 AT 02:46 PM (EST)

LAST EDITED ON 05-27-09 AT 02:45PM (EST)

I swear I remember them doing that for Kellie Pickler here.

I think they do it for any Idol contestant that has a home town that does the whole town comes out for a party thing.

San Diego County has more people in it than all of Arkansas. Could they really trump the whole rest of the country with a couple of gatherings?

ETA numbers 2008 estimates
San Diego County--3,001,072
Arkansas--2,855,390

ETA more: The power texting instructions were posted all over the web. You didn't need an ATT representative to teach you. If Adam's fans wanted to they could use the same trick to power text.

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05-28-09, 01:27 PM (EST)
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24. "RE: Evidently...."
Don't underestimate the small towns/communities. When Canadian Idol is on here, it seems that the small communities get behin their contestants in a huge way. Since the producers want a spread of contestants from across the country, they always pick a few from the smaller maritime provinces to make the top 20. These guys almost always go much further in the contest than their talent would justify.

Toronto, on the other hand, has done statistically poorly on Canadian Idol. The lack of community with the huge city does not seem condusive to drumming up votes.

How many AI winners/finalists have come from NY? LA? Chicago? I haven't looked at the stats, but it would seem the cities are under-represented. This could be because talented people in big cities go get opportunity rather than waiting for AI to come find them.


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05-28-09, 12:14 PM (EST)
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20. "RE: Evidently...."
LAST EDITED ON 05-28-09 AT 01:03 PM (EST)

This has been so debunked. The Hollywood Reporter ran the numbers and they were a drop in the bucket of 100 million votes.

Look for the clip of Kris on the Jimmy Fallon show. He picks up his guitar and performs Heartless. No pyrotechnics, no smoke, no costume...just great vocals.


ETA link: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x9f1sf_kris-jim_music

He starts singing around 7:50 Love it!


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05-28-09, 10:55 PM (EST)
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25. "RE: Evidently...."
Great clip, thanks zazzy!
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05-27-09, 03:26 PM (EST)
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19. "RE: How/Why Did Kris Win?"
LAST EDITED ON 05-27-09 AT 03:28 PM (EST)

A lot of people love and root for the underdog in a competition and in this case, we had a happy ending.

Kris had a gradual build throughout the season while Adam blazed early and tried to hold on to it.

And Kris just simply appealed to a larger audience (ETA: who actually watches a show like this and votes).

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05-28-09, 12:33 PM (EST)
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21. "RE: How/Why Did Kris Win?"
Frankly, I think they both won. Kris may have won the title, but Adam seems to have won even more. I think that even the possibility of him singing with Queen (something that's widely rumored) is far more of a victory than an AI title, especially for those of us who prefer our music a little less cheesy than what AI typically puts out.

The fact that the media's still all over him, while the only things I've seen about Kris are how AT&T might've helped him win,is a further indication that Adam is the real star here, regardless of who won the 'title'. No disrespect to Kris, who is a sweet guy and should do relatively okay with his fan base, but when it comes to a long-term star such as Kelly or Carrie, then my money's still on Adam. (And if he does end up singing with Queen, then Kris will really be left in the shadows, so to speak. After all, a soft pop album can hardly compare to fronting a legendary rock band!)

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zazzy 4390 desperate attention whore postings
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05-28-09, 01:10 PM (EST)
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22. "RE: How/Why Did Kris Win?"
IIRC, you weren't much interested in Kris during the show.

The AT&T story is just to get more press for the show and it keeps Adam's name in the press, too. Controversy sells, even if it's a tempest in a teapot. The runner up routinely gets interviews the week after the show. The Hollywood Reporter debunked the story--see MJsbigblog for details.

BTW, Kris is outselling Adam on the Billboard charts. There's a market for soft pop.

If Adam sings with Queen in a guest appearance (which is what is being discussed, not fronting Queen on a regular basis), that will be great for Adam. I disagree that it would leave Kris in the shadows.

Are you going to see Adam on the AI tour?

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05-28-09, 01:20 PM (EST)
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23. "RE: How/Why Did Kris Win?"
Adam was selling better during the season, but I think that was more some of the hard core watch every week (from what Itunes got leaked during the season).

I could see the winner getting a lot more downloads after the show, especially someone that was building a following and may not have gotten the downloads immediately each week.

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