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"Good for Natalie!"
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PagongRatEater 12973 desperate attention whore postings
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12-22-09, 00:37 AM (EST)
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"Good for Natalie!"
LAST EDITED ON 12-22-09 AT 00:38 AM (EST)

I'm glad that finally a jury decided that 'playing the game' does not equal the player who evidences the most odious behavior; behavior that is somehow excused because they are "just playing the game." You shouldn't get rewarded for being a jerk and frankly the world already has too many jerks who get ahead because of their lack of regard for anyone but themselves.

I am glad for Natalie, that the nice guy wins. Eric hit the nail on the head in saying that she deserved to be there as much as any of the other players, by virtue of the fact that she was there. She absolutely earned it and should be rewarded for playing a game with integrity and consideration for others while still being able to advance herself.

Where is the strategy in buring peoples' socks? What's strategic in having 3 Immunity Idols to play? Sure Russell found them, but he got to the end more because of Galu's ineptness than his own genius. In the end, I was glad to see that - at least once in a while - arrogant jerks aren't rewarded for their character flaw.

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  Table of Contents

  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
 RE: Good for Natalie! iltarion 12-22-09 1
   RE: Good for Natalie! michel 12-22-09 7
   RE: Good for Natalie! AvidRealityWatcher 12-23-09 8
 RE: Good for Natalie! dabo 12-22-09 2
   RE: Good for Natalie! Aruba 12-22-09 3
       RE: Good for Natalie! Karchita 12-31-09 12
   RE: Good for Natalie! mindy23 12-22-09 5
   RE: Good for Natalie! PagongRatEater 12-22-09 6
       RE: Good for Natalie! dabo 12-23-09 9
           RE: Good for Natalie! michel 12-23-09 10
               RE: Good for Natalie! Tublecane 02-05-10 19
                   RE: Good for Natalie! michel 02-05-10 22
                       RE: Good for Natalie! Tublecane 02-05-10 23
                           RE: Good for Natalie! michel 02-06-10 24
                       RE: Good for Natalie! Starshine 02-06-10 25
       RE: Good for Natalie! Aruba 12-23-09 11
   RE: Good for Natalie! Tublecane 02-05-10 17
   RE: Good for Natalie! Tublecane 02-05-10 18
 PRE!!!! jbug 12-22-09 4
 RE: Good for Natalie! Colonel Zoidberg 01-01-10 13
   RE: Good for Natalie! michel 01-01-10 14
       RE: Good for Natalie! Tublecane 02-05-10 21
   The Social Game PagongRatEater 01-15-10 15
   RE: Good for Natalie! PepeLePew13 01-15-10 16
   RE: Good for Natalie! Tublecane 02-05-10 20
       RE: Good for Natalie! Belle Book 02-06-10 26

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iltarion 1791 desperate attention whore postings
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12-22-09, 02:57 AM (EST)
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1. "RE: Good for Natalie!"
LAST EDITED ON 12-22-09 AT 03:02 AM (EST)

If this truly means juries will now hold players accountable for their lies and betrayals, then this really is a great thing for Survivor. I would be all for that. I have my doubts about that though. I think there were some injured egos on the jury. I mean, how can Erik have his mind made up before FTC? He was only with the 3 finalists for 3 days!!

I had been an Erik fan, and he had several stirring speeches during the season. However, how did his FTC rant make any sense? I don't get it. Riddle me this: if Natalie's mere presence in the Finals makes her just as deserving of being there as Russell, then what about MICK?? Hahaha... Isn't HE equally deserving as well? Afterall, HE WAS ALSO THERE.

"Delusional entitlement"- Ah, where are you getting this, bro? Because Mick is a doctor? Practice classist stereotyping much? (And yeah, I used classist as a word.) You were with Mick for 3 days, and considering your behavior prior to merge, I doubt you spent those 3 days associating with the guy. You know nothing about him. I agree that Mick was a horrendous leader for FU FU and deserves part of the blame for their ineptness, but because Natalie wasn't elected leader and Mick was, that somehow makes her better? Whuh? Both Natalie and Russell feared bringing Mick to the end because he was a good guy. They spent more time with him than anyone.

"Lie, Steal, Cheat"- Ahhhhhh, when did Russell "steal" and "cheat"? I must have missed those episodes. So, what he really did was "lie." Did you, Erik, never lie in the game? Didn't you try twice to vote out Monica? Weren't you at the same time in an alliance with Laura? Not sure you got by without lying there at least once. You are a hypocrit, mon.

Your bitterness should have been directed at your own tribe, who sold you out, man. Not Russell and Mick.

Russell said it perfectly that Mick and Natalie benefitted from and celebrated every move Russell made. Mick and Natalie didn't even try to argue it. In real life, who is worse? The jack@ss or his followers? In real life, they are just as bad. And if we aren't talking about real life, only a game, then there is no moral judgement to make. Russell did nothing wrong.

I laugh at the play Natalie made for the women's votes by saying she saw how the strong women (them, of course) were being booted and therefore chose to ride Russell's coattails. First of all, she's not a strong woman; so she never had the option of playing Laura or Marissa's game from the start. Hahaha... Good rationalization of what was always going to be a coattail strategy, after the fact. Remember, Natalie and Russell's alliance was made before anyone was booted.

No, I do believe Erik would actually agree, being "weak" is no more admirable than being "arrogant" or "entitled." They are all undeserving of admiration, and as such, I see no vindication in this result.


>

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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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12-22-09, 08:27 PM (EST)
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7. "RE: Good for Natalie!"
"First of all, she's not a strong woman;"

Strong enough to beat Russell in the first and Mick in both of the season's two endurance challenges; the one Jaison bought and the F4.

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AvidRealityWatcher 202 desperate attention whore postings
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12-23-09, 00:55 AM (EST)
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8. "RE: Good for Natalie!"
iltarion, I agree with your post, i said that a few posts ago about who is the true fool, the fool or the fool that follows a fool?

And I agree with one of the posters down below here, that wonders if Kelly had won season one would we have these juries from the past voting for the most obscene player, because they do condone that behavior from Richard Hatches game play. The truth of the matter is, ratings do not go up from contestants doing good all the time, they go up when people are going nuts, or when a tragedy occurs. Example: Just look at COPS for a moment and tell me, would like to watch a bunch of policeman that all they do is sit in their favorite donut shop and do their usuall finest. No, rather for this scenario, the public wants to watch a good chase, a good fight, a good shoot out, a robbery in progress, or whatever is most shocking to them, because the mass public does not act this way, and they want to see for themselves the things that go bump in the night.

As for survivor, it rings just the same. People at home dont want a cinderella story, they want fire and brimstone. Look at how much emphasis was put on Russels (Not runner up Russel, the other one) passing out during a challenge. That had ratings written all over it. Had the challenge gone unnoticed the week probably would have been the same as the week before and the week after. Look at the horrible weather conditions 15 straight days of rain, and cold. Now lets show how bad they are suffering, and why because of ratings. People are all to eager to see the darker side of themselves so they themself do not have to act this way.

Unfortunately I am still a Russel supporter, and I understand and uphold the title that Nata-Lie holds. And yes I put Lie at the end of her name. Sure she said her strategy was to skirt tail all the way to the finish line, but when she stood in front of the final TC she said that none of the decisions were hers. I'm sorry but everytime she made a vote at TC, the decision is hers as to wether she wanted to join in with the rest of the group or try to stand out and make a difference that could either bite her in the butt, or make her a millionaire. Again the decision was always hers, she just chose not to use it. A better strategy would have been to say she helped make those decisions or win a few challenges, or start a fire, anything that would show she was a true survivor.

My dad always said, "Give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day. Teach him to fish and he will never starve again." I believe this fits with our scenario. Russel didnt learn anything from Nata-Lie. Russel already had the game figured out. (meaning he already knew how to fish). She didnt learn anything from Russel either. The only thing she did was use him until he was no longer usable. Fortunately for her, he made it all the way to the end. (meaning she was given a fish everyday but not taught how to do her own fishing)

In the immortal words of Forrest Gump, "And that's all I have to say about that."

ARW

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dabo 25344 desperate attention whore postings
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12-22-09, 03:01 AM (EST)
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2. "RE: Good for Natalie!"
LAST EDITED ON 12-22-09 AT 03:05 AM (EST)

I don't know what the strategy was behind burning socks and dumping out the water and such, but if there was a strategy there so be it. All well and fine.

The main thing about RH that turned me off were his disparaging remarks about other players; the dumb blondes, the little punk, et cetera and so on. He may have kept all that to confessionals but it probably translated to the other players in subtle ways if he was constantly thinking in such terms. And he let his ego get out of control.

Natalie's actual social strategy of being genuinely likeable paid off this time. Good for her.

She's Ethan in a bikini.

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Aruba 1891 desperate attention whore postings
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12-22-09, 05:59 AM (EST)
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3. "RE: Good for Natalie!"

>She's Ethan in a bikini.


I agree with the Ethan analogy. Although Lex "deserved" to win Africa, I'm happy Ethan won over Kim or Big Tom. Heck, I'd rather see Natalie win it over Mick or Jaison even though Russell deserved it with his gameplay.

I just finished watching an interview where Russell compared himself to a QB throwing TDs and Natalie as a cheerleader who was "not even on the field." Well in football is the winning team ALWAYS the most talented team or the one who statistically played the better game? The answer is NO and this season was no different. That's life.

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Karchita 4469 desperate attention whore postings
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12-31-09, 03:46 PM (EST)
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12. "RE: Good for Natalie!"
The problem with the football analogy is that Survivor isn't football. In the ways that Survivor is like football, Russell did very well. But it's the social aspect and winning the jury, which football doesn't have, that Russell failed at.

If he is thinking that football and Survivor are in any way comparable, then he doesn't even get what Survivor is all about.



Christmasized by the one and only Sharnina

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mindy23 1319 desperate attention whore postings
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12-22-09, 09:34 AM (EST)
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5. "RE: Good for Natalie!"
>LAST EDITED ON 12-22-09
>AT 03:05AM (EST)

>
>I don't know what the strategy
>was behind burning socks and
>dumping out the water and
>such, but if there was
>a strategy there so be
>it. All well and
>fine.
>
>The main thing about RH that
>turned me off were his
>disparaging remarks about other players;
>the dumb blondes, the little
>punk, et cetera and so
>on. He may have
>kept all that to confessionals
>but it probably translated to
>the other players in subtle
>ways if he was constantly
>thinking in such terms.
>And he let his ego
>get out of control.
>
>Natalie's actual social strategy of being
>genuinely likeable paid off this
>time. Good for her.
>
>
>She's Ethan in a bikini.

What you said! AGREE!

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PagongRatEater 12973 desperate attention whore postings
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12-22-09, 10:01 AM (EST)
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6. "RE: Good for Natalie!"
Exactly dabo. It seems that somehow Russell got the idea that the worse he acted the better he was playing the game and I, for one, am glad that being an ##### finally had repercussions.

The fact is this goes all the way back to the first jury deciding that Richard deserved the money because of the way he played. I have always wondered if Kelly had won, if the way people play today would not have evolved into Johnny F and Russell.


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dabo 25344 desperate attention whore postings
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12-23-09, 10:08 AM (EST)
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9. "RE: Good for Natalie!"
Well, Kelly nearly won the first season. She got to F2 by winning a string of immunities and then got all but one of the Pagong votes. Had she taken Rudy to Final instead of Richard, who knows.

Comparing Richard and Russell (RH v RH), in many ways their games were similar, they both had dominant strategies to control and manipulate the game, played hard.

Richard's villain was more that he was calmly dispationate in assessing the other players, they were pieces in the game. But he tried to be likeable around camp, play the social game, may have overplayed it sometimes.

Russell's villain was that of an overly-emotional bully who didn't play well with others, was very disparaging of them all, personally insulting, threw tantrums whenever he was (in his mind) challenged by anyone, and he just got worse as the game progressed.

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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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12-23-09, 06:18 PM (EST)
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10. "RE: Good for Natalie!"
When you look at Borneo again, the main thing Hatch did to be called a villain was to form an alliance!! S1 was all about the single question of ethics behind alliances.

Ok, Hatch was arrogant but it pales in comparison to this season's creep. Hatch didn't make F2 deals with everyone just to rub their faces in it at the next TC. Hatch didn't reveal all his little secrets because it was so funny to have someone laugh with him about the other idiots and he couldn't wait until the reunion. Hatch didn't mix up his lies like the creep did to Laura about the first idol. Hatch didn't run around trying to find an idol then suddenly stop looking and think no one knew he had found it.

Hatch was a great player, a true mastermind.

Often, RussHell was simply dumb. His ego didn't allow him to see it. I wonder what prevents his fans from seeing it?

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Tublecane 141 desperate attention whore postings
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02-05-10, 07:39 PM (EST)
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19. "RE: Good for Natalie!"
LAST EDITED ON 02-05-10 AT 07:42 PM (EST)

"Often, RussHell was simply dumb. His ego didn't allow him to see it. I wonder what prevents his fans from seeing it?"

I wonder why of all the "dumb" things Russell supposedly did, none of the ones you mention affected his game much. Russell made mistakes. "Often," perhaps, but not in the sense that he made a lot of little mistakes. It was one big mistake that permeated his whole game. Namely, his ego did him in. He was too boastful and aggressive. That, and he played a shallow social game. His tribemates liked him, to whatever extent they did, because he helped them. He didn't develop fake friendships (or island friendships, if you will) with anyone but Shambo. Everything else was either pretty darn good or misguided but not destructive (more on that below), from where I'm sitting.

"Hatch didn't make F2 deals with everyone just to rub their faces in it at the next TC"

What does it matter if you "rub their faces in" (by which I suppose you mean "vote against them despite") F2 deals before the merge? What does it matter, for that matter, if you throw around F2 deals apparently without people finding out? It helped him with Natalie, so far as I can tell, and didn't hurt him at all with anyone else. So where's the big mistake?

"Hatch didn't reveal all his little secrets because it was so funny to have someone laugh with him about the other idiots and he couldn't wait until the reunion"

In the first place, this could help him get to the finals, so it's not all bad. Secondly, is that why he lost, really? I thought Jaison put his wealth in perspective at the final tribal council. Natalie wasn't exactly a Dreamz, after all. As part of Russell's overall boasting, it was one of the reasons he lost. Not a bright move, but it didn't particularly hurt him.

"Hatch didn't mix up his lies like the creep did to Laura about the first idol"

That was a stupid move, of course, but it was a hail mary. And I don't remember him mixing up lies, unless you're referring to telling different lies to John and Laura. But what's the big deal? They weren't going to work for him anyway. And he had a back-up plan, namely playing the idol at council, which he did. More than we can say for Erik.

"Hatch didn't run around trying to find an idol then suddenly stop looking and think no one knew he had found it."

Okay, this is really stretching. We didn't see what he did after he found it. It didn't hurt him. The main goal, aside from having it for later in the game, was to keep the idol away from the other team. Did he even care if people knew he had the idol? Even Galuans were smart enough not to target him just in case at that point. And at no point thereafter could the idol be safely "flushed out" (the Galus had to go). Certainly, he enjoyed everyone knowing later on. This whole thing about keeping idols secret is overrated.


The problem we have with Russell is that we constantly want to argue whether he should have won (endless though that argument is) or whether he is the greatest of all time. He wasn't the latter, but he was undoubtedly very good.

He lost because of the social game, yes. But his social ineptitude has been overrated. The social side was not all bad. He was tight with his own alliance, especially the ladies. That couldn't all be because of his strategic value; some of it was because they were attached to him as a person (we'll never know how much, as in my opinion it's impossible to totally seperate the strategic side from the social side). He sorta-kinda got along with John. He made inroads with Dave (by saving his neck) and Brett (by talking about him as a suitor for his daughters). And at least he tried with Laura, though when Laura turned on him strategically he totally lost it.

What I think it was was that Russell was a poor winner. Galu were sore losers, but more so they were offended by the attitude Russell brings to winning. He is not the most magnanimous guy. That's what finally sunk him socially, and that's why he lost.

Neither was Hatch the greatest, by the way. Better than Russ? Yes, as an innovator. But as for pure player, he was up against sheep, as Lex put it. Russell's game was infinitely more complicated. Getting to the final four was easy as pie for Rich (with Sean's alphabetic help and his timely immunity win), once he invented the alliance (and no one else tried it until too late). It was dumb luck that Sue and Kelly broke up, thereby torpedoing their planned sub-alliance, giving him more or less a free pass to the final two. Capitulating in the challenge so that he didn't have to vote out Rudy was brilliant, but about his only brilliant move besides the alliance idea and who he chose to ally with.


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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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02-05-10, 09:19 PM (EST)
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22. "RE: Good for Natalie!"
This is so... last decade!

"It was one big mistake that permeated his whole game. Namely, his ego did him in. He was too boastful and aggressive. That, and he played a shallow social game."

The other players lived with that ego for 20 days after the merge so it often hurt him. Every laugh he had at someone's expense was a mistake.

"Everything else was either pretty darn good or misguided but not destructive"

Sorry but it was destructive if we're talking about winning the title of Sole Survivor.

"What does it matter if you "rub their faces in" (by which I suppose you mean "vote against them despite") F2 deals before the merge? What does it matter, for that matter, if you throw around F2 deals apparently without people finding out? It helped him with Natalie, so far as I can tell, and didn't hurt him at all with anyone else. So where's the big mistake?"

I'm not talking Marisa or Ashley but Laura, John, Monica, Dave, Shambo, Jaison and Brett. He made deals with all of them and laughed when he voted most of them out = D.U.M.B.

The biggest thing about telling Mick he was a millionnaire is that it showed he wasn't smart enough to stick to his plan. It was more important to be seen as smart than being smart.

"I don't remember him mixing up lies, unless you're referring to telling different lies to John and Laura."

He told Laura not to look for the idol because Ben had left with it then he played it at the next TC. Laura knew he was full of BS.

"We didn't see what he did after he found it. It didn't hurt him...And at no point thereafter could the idol be safely "flushed out"

We saw him relaxing in the hammock. He comes back from reward, starts running around immediately then he stops and never goes out again??? He didn't even bid for the clue at the auction. We didn't hear anyone mention it because we were supposed to forget that Russell was dumb but Galu knew he had it.
The idol can always be safely flushed out.

"The problem we have with Russell is that we constantly want to argue whether he should have won (endless though that argument is) or whether he is the greatest of all time"

LOL! He shouldn't have won. Argument over. He isn't the greatest of all time. Except for Ali, greatest of all time doesn't exist. Anyway, the creep isn't even in contention because HE DIDN'T WIN!

"Getting to the final four was easy as pie for Rich"

Revisionist history. He worked hard to keep things in line. Do you know what Hatch did that most have not realized: He made an alliance yes, but with people he could beat. Hantz didn't.

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Tublecane 141 desperate attention whore postings
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02-05-10, 10:30 PM (EST)
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23. "RE: Good for Natalie!"
"The other players lived with that ego for 20 days after the merge so it often hurt him. Every laugh he had at someone's expense was a mistake."

I think I made it clear that his ego and his boasting was a mistake. It's just that I consider it one big maistake rather than a million discreet mistakes.

"Sorry but it was destructive if we're talking about winning the title of Sole Survivor."

I was talking about discreet mistakes here, not what I see as the one big mistake. Nothing he did at any stage hurt his chances in particular. Nothing you cited hurt him at the nearest vote, nor the next vote, nor the next. Nothing he did hurt his position in the game short of the finals, wherein they might become part of the overall picture. The overall picture is important, I agree. Paramount, in fact. But it's just that: a broad picture. A collection of little things that rubbed people the wrong way, but not the little things in themselves.

"I'm not talking Marisa or Ashley but Laura, John, Monica, Dave, Shambo, Jaison and Brett. He made deals with all of them and laughed when he voted most of them out = D.U.M.B."

Laura, John, and Monica turned on him first. John voted for him anyway. As did Shambo. Dave possibly could have voted against Russ for turning on him after saving his neck, but I doubt it. And if nothing else, at least he saved his neck, which he didn't have to do. As for Brett, he vacillated on whether to vote him out, but I think Brett knew all along. Do we know he ever promised F2 to Dave or Brett, by the way?

His being boastful at tribal was a problem, I agree. It was part of what I had said cost him the final. But I think it was nothing to do with what he promised them and everything to do with their blaming him for losing and hating him for being a sore winner.

"The biggest thing about telling Mick he was a millionnaire is that it showed he wasn't smart enough to stick to his plan. It was more important to be seen as smart than being smart."

Russell spilled secrets after he said he wouldn't a few times, as with the hidden idol. And it wasn't the smart play. But I don't think it hurt him all that much. Doing something stupid is bad in and of itself, but not evidence of a bad player if its effect is null.

"He told Laura not to look for the idol because Ben had left with it then he played it at the next TC. Laura knew he was full of BS."

Oh, and that's why she turned down his deal? Not because she was never, ever going to accept it? There was no chance of a Laura/Russell combo with or without his lies in my opinion. She could have used his vote against the Galu men down the road, perhaps. When fewer people were in the game and Russell was a sub-alliance flip candidate. And that might have been handy had not Galu lost control. But what does it matter, this fantasy world, when Foa-Foa were the winners? Russell got to the finals without her, and Laura was never going to hand majority power to Russell if she could help it anyway.

"He didn't even bid for the clue at the auction."

That's a good point. But still, I don't see why them knowing is so bad. It didn't hurt, did it?

"The idol can always be safely flushed out."

How? Certainly not while a Foa-Foa majority, which is what Russ was gunning for, was dangerously possible. Perhaps down the road, had Galu maintained majority or had remaining Galuans and Foas saw fit to do it. But Russ didn't have anything to fear, obviously, since it didn't happen. His gameplay and others' desire to take him to the final (a result of his gameplay) won him the freedom not to play the idol. Again, we have a flaw that didn't hurt him.

"LOL! He shouldn't have won. Argument over."

You can always say he shouldn't have won because he didn't, but there's a difference between Is and Ought. Obviously, the person who gets a majority of votes should win. But I don't want to live in a world where I can't say that I think the jury ought to have voted another way. Any more than you want to live where you can't say this or that player shouldn't have made this or that move when the move didn't particularly hurt. Because you know that a move can be wrong (or DUMB) even if it has no immediate practical ill effects. Just as I know my opinion of what sort of play ought to be rewarded is not illegitimate merely because a particular jury didn't agree.

"Anyway, the creep isn't even in contention because HE DIDN'T WIN!"

Which is precisely why I said he's not the greatest. Well, not precisely. There were other reasons. I can't even say for sure he's in my top five. Just to be clear that your caps are not for my ears.

"Revisionist history. He worked hard to keep things in line. Do you know what Hatch did that most have not realized"

Not revisionist. That's what I thought at the time. If you can tell me what he did specifically from the merge to the final four that kept him there, aside from the previously mentioned immunity win, I'm all ears. Perhaps you can say he kept Sue and Rudy in line, but they were their own people. They kept themselves in line.

"He made an alliance yes, but with people he could beat."

You'll see I mentioned that in my post. It was in the last sentence. My point was that after coming up with the alliance idea, which includes who he was going to align with, he had an easy road to F4. That is, throwing in Sean's unwitting complicity and Rich's immunity win.

"He worked hard to keep things in line."

What else did he do outside of keeping Sue and Rudy happy after the alliance was in place? Targeting based on Sean's alphabetical vote, winning immunity, and throwing the F3 challenge. Kudos for that, but those were pretty easy moves, aside from giving up the challenge, which as I said was brilliant. He didn't keep things in line. If anything, things fell in line. Kelly revolted, which was lucky. He wanted to vote her out thereafter, but couldn't, which again was pure luck.

But he won and Russell lost, which I guess forever after makes it that Rich was a genius all the way through and Russell a dummy.

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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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02-06-10, 01:51 PM (EST)
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24. "RE: Good for Natalie!"
"I consider it one big maistake rather than a million discreet mistakes... I was talking about discreet mistakes here, not what I see as the one big mistake. Nothing he did at any stage hurt his chances in particular. Nothing you cited hurt him at the nearest vote, nor the next vote, nor the next. Nothing he did hurt his position in the game short of the finals, wherein they might become part of the overall picture. The overall picture is important, I agree. Paramount, in fact. But it's just that: a broad picture. A collection of little things that rubbed people the wrong way, but not the little things in themselves."

Did he win? No, so weighting mistakes is a futile exercise. A mistake is a mistake. Discreet or big, they all piled on and it cost him the game. Heidik had a big ego also but he hid it extremely well and his only mistakes was in winning that video from home and letting Clay get close to Penny. Those were small mistakes but they almost cost him the game. In comparison, Hantz made tons of mistakes of all shapes and sizes.

Consider also that his mistakes made him a juicy partner to have. In Survivor, GOAT doesn't mean Greatest Of All Time.

"Laura, John, and Monica turned on him first. John voted for him anyway. As did Shambo."

Laura turned on the creep once he told her that one of her guys had to go first. Huge mistake that only being lucky in finding the second HII repaired. That's right, I consider he was very lucky that the producers pandered to his idea and hid the HII's in plain sight. Hantz was right, it had to be near a landmark but if it had been buried, say 10 paces away from that bridge, he never finds it.

Monica knew he was lying to her face so she simply didn't flip to his side. He sought her out and offered a deal, not the other way around. Refusing his garbage is not turning on him.

Shambutch is one of the dumbest players ever so I don't put much weight on her vote.

John didn't turn on Russell. If Russell had been smart, he would have realized he needed John sitting next to him rather than on the jury.

With Dave, he made a deal with him to vote out Shambitch even if he was going to vote Dave out. Why? Every deal has a clause that reads: "If you screw me over, I'll screw you". Hantz stupidly threw away Dave's vote (BTW, just like Morono threw away Alicia's vote).

"But I don't want to live in a world where I can't say that I think the jury ought to have voted another way"

You can say whatever you want but only 1 thing counts and it's that jury and their vote. Nothing else matters.


"If you can tell me what he did specifically from the merge to the final four that kept him there aside from the previously mentioned immunity win, I'm all ears"

I'll do you one better: Editing made it look like he needed that immunity win but posters debated whether or not he actually needed it. Most thought he really didn't, that Gervase was going home anyway.

No, Richard's genius was in first setting up that alliance before the merge, making these 3 people think the million dollars was much closer than they realized. Richard knew Stacey would be too smart for his plan and maybe even Sean if he had been told about true strategy.

After the merge he worked on the cupidity and the paranoia of Sue and Kelly and on Rudy's sense of pride and honor. He also had to keep the alliance secret, something Jeff worked hard to expose.

You have to realize that Hatch counted on Sue and Kelly breaking up at some point. He even contributed to it by speaking ill of Kelly to Sue, pointing out her closeness to Jenna and Colleen. After the fight, he calmed Kelly down and kept her focused on the million. He just didn't tell her it was his million.

None of it was easy because it had never been done before and not many were ready to accept the concept of alliance.

PS: About the idol, if it had been in the hands of a jury threat then Jaison, Natalie and Mick would have been part of the flushing out. They were happy where that idol was so that's why it wasn't flushed. You can always get that idol out when you know where it is.

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Starshine 4934 desperate attention whore postings
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02-06-10, 02:25 PM (EST)
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25. "RE: Good for Natalie!"
I read these threads, but am outclassed in Survivor by all of you so I rarely comment, however

Except for Ali, greatest of all time doesn't exist

deserves comment

Rocky Marciano greatest heavyweight ever

He doesn't have the image, but he would have put Ali in the corner and dropped him no problem.

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Aruba 1891 desperate attention whore postings
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12-23-09, 07:19 PM (EST)
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11. "RE: Good for Natalie!"

>I have always wondered if
>Kelly had won, if the
>way people play today would
>not have evolved into Johnny
>F and Russell.

My answer is NO. The sole survivor of any one season has little impact on future seasons. The Outback was won by a coattail rider benefitting from the biggest bonehead decision whether Kelly OR Hatch wins S1. You think Tina's "win" in the Outback meant a difference in S4 when UTR Vecepia won doing what she did best--Nothing.

After S9 when Chris tried to justify his lying and backstabbing because "it's what Hatch and Boston Rob did," an interviewer asked Jeff Probst if he thought anyone with honesty and integrity could win Survivor. Jeff's answer was "probably not." Enter Tom Westman (S10) who showed us a salt-of-the-earth and decent family man could not only win but dominate a season. Could we have a changing of the guard? No such luck. A few seasons later Todd, who was everything Westman was not, schemed his way to a victory in China. This was followed by Skankivor: Micronesia. Did Perv-ati's "win" pave the way for all future female castaways to act like skanky HOs??? Thankfully not.

When Wayne Gretzky, one of if not the greatest player in the history of the National Hockey League, retired he was asked in his press conference how this will affect the game of hockey. Gretzky stated the game would not only continue but flourish without him. When asked how so he answered very as a matter-of-fact..."There is no one individual bigger than the Game itself."

The same can be said for Survivor. There is no one castaway bigger than the game of Survivor itself.

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Tublecane 141 desperate attention whore postings
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02-05-10, 06:18 PM (EST)
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17. "RE: Good for Natalie!"
LAST EDITED ON 02-05-10 AT 07:44 PM (EST)

"The main thing about RH that turned me off were his disparaging remarks about other players; the dumb blondes, the little punk, et cetera and so on"

There's no way people didn't pick up on Russ' condescension, though the specific case of "dumb blonde" I don't think applies. The blondes liked him. As did most of the women, for that matter. The cop and Laura (and by extension Monica) picked up on the possible mysogyny, but he had a stable of more or less loyal alliance mates who didn't seem to see him as a woman-hater (Natalie, Ashley, Liz, and Shambo).

I have to say, there's been a lot of hulabaloo over the "dumb girls alliance" in the Survivor-watching community, and I think it's exaggerated. I wouldn't be surprised if Russell is a woman-hater, but this particular comment as such an egregious example of it. If someone said something about using dumb frat boys, or something similar, few would bat an eye. Because they really are useful dumb guys out there. Dumb guys who fit various stereotypes. Just like there are easily-led blonde girls in the world.

Surely, he didn't say anything about a "dumb guys" alliance, so we can safely assume he thinks dumbness is more prevalent in women. Or that dumb guys aren't as easy to manipulate. Whichever it was, he was more interested in controlling women than men, which is evidence of a bias against women. However, his woman-complex cuts both ways. He's also afraid of women, and seeks to remove them whenever they show any sign of free-thinking (Betsy, Liz, Laura, Monica). Which I think means he respects women on some level (fear can come from respect).

How often, in the past, have male players been criticized for overlooking femal competition? How often has it been said they're misogynists for not respecting women as threats? At least Russell overcame that blindspot.

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Tublecane 141 desperate attention whore postings
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02-05-10, 06:27 PM (EST)
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18. "RE: Good for Natalie!"
"I don't know what the strategy was behind burning socks and dumping out the water and such"

As Russell explained, the goal was to stir people's emotions, thereby making them more pliable. Basically, it's psychological warfare. And he's got a point; emotional people are easier to control. It may have actually had an impact, as the first bootee had a fight with Ben over water, if I recall.

However, it was far too risky for the reward, which at best is . You get caught dumping water or destroying property, you're out. Also, creating a aura of general desperation could snap back in your face. Especially if you're an abrasive person like Russ.

If I were to use such a tactic, I'd target someone specific, preferably with a uniquely fragile psyche. Shane, for instance. Pull him aside and tell him someone said his son all that great. "Hey, Shane bit me! He needs to go."

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jbug 16685 desperate attention whore postings
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12-22-09, 09:04 AM (EST)
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4. "PRE!!!!"
~~~hi~~~~


Santa is shakin! bobblin! Thanks Tribe!

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Colonel Zoidberg 3645 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Thong Contest Judge"

01-01-10, 12:41 PM (EST)
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13. "RE: Good for Natalie!"
I'm not sure why Natalie won this game. I could see why she got some of the votes she did - Erik appreciated big moves, and so she got his vote...Laura bonded over Jesus talk with Natalie and was bitter with Russell...Jaison was pissed off at Russell for being blindsided...but other than a few nibbles of niceness and some anti-Russell sentiment, name me two big moves Natalie made. The first was starting the ball rolling on getting rid of Erik.

That's probably what won her the game, and purely by an accident of mathematics. Erik was out first to the jury, and thus he had plenty of time to influence everyone. In addition, he became a sort of "mascot" of Galu, a symbol of its downfall. Everyone who joined the jury had Erik to talk to and was swayed toward his POV - vote Natalie. John, a Russell voter, had less time and less trust, and Shambo was a basket case. These were Russell's only two votes - the groupthinkers of Galu went along with voting Natalie, and Jaison, the lone Foa Foa on the jury, went along with it to spite Russell. Let's be honest - Mick was the Becky of the group. He wouldn't have gotten a vote alongside Debb from Australia and Billy from Cook Islands.

Russell's game was a little more spread out - more big moves, but no bombshells. His biggest move was whipping out the idol at F11 - necessary, sure. Bold, why not? The biggest move of the game? Hardly. Same for ditching Laura - inevitable, so not the big move of the game.

The jury was largely Gabon redux - bitterness and personal feelings got in the way. Sugar played an awesome game. So did Russell. But because the jury voted personally rather than strategic (Sugar flipped Corinne the bird, and Jaison made a big deal about how rich the F3 members were...as if he didn't stand to make a big payday as a lawyer, the damn hypocrite) then Natalie won.

That said, if Natalie was the best player, as many Samoa cast members decided she was, the editing was a big problem. Not since Jenna's triumph over Matt have the editors so misled us. I thought for sure Russell had it in the bag, and if anyone was beating him, it would surely be close. For him to lose 7-2 is a head-scratcher.

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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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01-01-10, 05:52 PM (EST)
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14. "RE: Good for Natalie!"
I understand your point of view Colonel, but Survivor isn't a game where you make moves and they add up on a scorecard. Some of the biggest moves have simply resulted in putting the schemers in positions where they couldn't win. Think Jonathan in CI. Sometimes the best move is the one you don't make. Or the one that helps you but puts the blame somewhere else.


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Tublecane 141 desperate attention whore postings
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02-05-10, 08:12 PM (EST)
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21. "RE: Good for Natalie!"
"Survivor isn't a game where you make moves and they add up on a scorecard."

Yes it is, depending on the jury. That's why Todd won, partly. He made more friends than Amanda, yes. But Courtney also got a lot of votes and she wasn't so loveable. Todd won, in large part, because he put the mastermind seed in the jury's head. Amanda got nowhere explaining her part in strategic decision-making because Todd bogarted that role. He admitted to lying and what-not, and they rewarded him for it.

Russell got the mastermind vote from John, and he could have gotten it from others had he played nicer (but not too nicer).

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PagongRatEater 12973 desperate attention whore postings
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01-15-10, 10:22 AM (EST)
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15. "The Social Game"
Natalie won the social game, hands down. It's an aspect of the game that is undervalued, but Jeff talks about it every season - you have to win the jury vote. For once there were actual consequences to how a dominant player lied and manipulated others and I think that's how it should be. Winning by any means necessary does not make you the best player, just the person most willing to do anything to get the prize.

At the end of the game, you have to look at the jury and be able to ask them for their vote. In order to do that you have to maintain at least some of their respect and trust. Survivor IS a social game and I'm glad that someone who played the best social game won. Perhaps future Survivors will note that there is some boundary they can't go beyond and still be able to ask the jury to reward them in the end.


A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.

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PepeLePew13 24731 desperate attention whore postings
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01-15-10, 04:22 PM (EST)
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16. "RE: Good for Natalie!"

>That said, if Natalie was the
>best player, as many Samoa
>cast members decided she was,
>the editing was a big
>problem. Not since Jenna's triumph
>over Matt have the editors
>so misled us. I thought
>for sure Russell had it
>in the bag, and if
>anyone was beating him, it
>would surely be close. For
>him to lose 7-2 is
>a head-scratcher.

I didn't get that sense at all. I always had this sense that Natalie was going to have a very good shot at winning because a lot of key confessionals went her way while there were a lot of negative moments surrounding Russell. My experience has been that (for the most part) the editors want us to be okay or satisfied with the winner. I felt there were far too many negative moments for Russell to be a winner - the editors could have painted him as a lot shrewder than what we saw, but instead, while we did see a number of shrewd moments, we saw even more negativity (name-calling, cutting remarks, growing egotistical behaviour, etc.) that we didn't have to see or could have been edited differently if he was a winner.

Look at Stephenie. You couldn't have seen more extreme editing for one person between two shows than what we saw for Stephenie in Palau and Guatemala. The reason why is that the storylines presented themselves the way they did - heroic battle despite being on one of the all-time worst tribes to finish seventh and then finishing second and knowing that fans loved her in Palau & would have wondered how she could possibly have finished second so a major editing downturn was needed.

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Tublecane 141 desperate attention whore postings
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02-05-10, 08:06 PM (EST)
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20. "RE: Good for Natalie!"
I can't say the Kelly vote was less of a big vote than Erik's. Erik would obviously respect it more, being Erik. As you say, both ouysters are necessary. Without Kelly's, Galu still has a majority, thus rendering the Erik ouster meaningless. So why is it that you say Erik's was bigger? Because it was first? That's specious. Because it set a trend? Not really, since all three of the votes that put Foa-Foa in power were so different.

Not to take away Natalie's big move--it, too, was awesome and necessary--but I think Russell's was a more difficult, and therefore bigger, move. Galu may have was more willing to let one of their own be voted off because tensions were high since they waited so long to return to tribal council. All Natalie had to do was pass on the information; the intra-Galu split and Laura's knowledge of Erik and John's alliance did the rest. NO WAY they were going to let it happen again. Not having numbers and not having any "in" with the Galus besides Shambo, all that remained to them was the idol. Russell had to find the it out of the blue, simply assuming it was back in the mix.

Thus, if difficulty has anything to do with the bigness of the move, I give it to Russell. Also, it tied the balance of power rather than being the first step toward gaining the numbers advantage, which makes it more important and therefore "bigger" in my opinion.

"Same for ditching Laura - inevitable, so not the big move of the game."

"Inevitable" it was not. That Laura would be the one they'd target was perhaps inevitable. But it wasn't inevitable that Foa-Foa would pull it off. It was the third longshot in a row, though not as long a shot as the other two.

I agree, though, that the final vote was partly a bitterness vote. They blamed Russell for their loss. But it was Russell's fault, since he played up the mastermind role and rubbed their faces in it more than necessary. It was also a "worthiness as a human being" vote. They didn't like Russ as a player or a person, I think.

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Belle Book 3556 desperate attention whore postings
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02-06-10, 08:03 PM (EST)
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26. "RE: Good for Natalie!"
Which is why I was happy when RussHell didn't win the vote -- he behaved in such a way that it was impossible for most of them to respect him as a player or as a person.


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