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"Lame twist"
garcor 432 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Daytime Soap Guest Star"
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11-07-08, 07:41 AM (EST)
 
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"Lame twist" |
LAST EDITED ON 11-07-08 AT 08:17 AM (EST)LAST EDITED ON 11-07-08 AT 07:41 AM (EST) Bet onion wishes it had kept Dan now. Much as I enjoy blindsides and game shifts, I like them only when initiated by the players. Think last night's producer created game shift was ridiculous. Your reward for totally outcompeting the opposing tribe is to be randomly split up into new tribes where you might be in the minority. What's the point in having challenges then? And how can you put someone as completely useless as Suzie into a position where she gets to decide who stays or goes. Credit to a suddenly conscious Crystal for helping convince Suzie to flip. Kota is now in the minority; if Charlie and Company try to vote out Matty only to have him play the II they will be two votes down and likely history.
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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11-07-08, 08:02 PM (EST)
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6. "RE: Lame twist" |
"I agree that Marcus was shafted by the pseudo merge. He played too well to be tossed out by MB and Jiffy that way."Played well??
- Putting 3 votes on Susie at the previous Kota TC was dumb.
- Showing you have so much control on the game that you can throw away an idol was dumb.
- Sitting between Randy and Corinne at the feast instead of mingling with Fang was dumb.
- Making a deal with Crystal to vote out her ally instead of Susie was dumb.
- Waiting for a challenge loss to reassure Susie she was F3 was dumb.
- Talking about keeping the new Kota tribe strong when the vote depended on the weak Susie was dumb. 
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television 272 desperate attention whore postings
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11-07-08, 08:27 PM (EST)
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7. "RE: Lame twist" |
Agreed. He could have played it better. Really, would Kenny have been 'shafted' if he had been voted out? What if Fang had lost, would you say Randy had been shafted if he got voted out? Matty if he did? The only reason it seems Marcus was shafted was because he was in a comfortable position before then. But his game wasn't versatile enough, and his powers of persuasion not strong enough, to adapt and keep hold of Susie. If he hadn't offered to Crystal to vote off Susie, after he had already been switched, he probably wouldn't have been voted off. A sudden downturn in his fortunes, for sure, but they definitely didn't create the twist to shaft anyone; just to add drama and keep reminding people that they shouldn't anticipate what is going to happen. The result could have gotten anyone off; there were alot of possibilities. So maybe it looks like Marcus was shafted in hindsight, but really. That's silly. This is nothing compared to when James and whatsisname (Aaron?) got kidnapped and voted out after the challenge was thrown.
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suzzee 4956 desperate attention whore postings
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11-07-08, 08:50 PM (EST)
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8. "RE: Lame twist" |
Did Marcus know Kenny was Crystal's ally?
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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11-07-08, 09:30 PM (EST)
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9. "RE: Lame twist" |
>Did Marcus know Kenny was Crystal's ally?Did he care? How about simply asking her? It was as stupidly arrogant as Terry asking Shane to flip and ordering him to pick Cirie to come along. When dealing with new players; make friends, offer your help, blend in, but don't push your own agenda.
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garcor 432 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Daytime Soap Guest Star"
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11-07-08, 11:06 PM (EST)
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10. "RE: Lame twist" |
Figure Kota, not just Marcus, was likely shafted by the pseudo merge. Though at least Charlie, Corinne and Randy still have a chance.Not sure if Marcus could have done anything to save himself once tribes were reshuffled. Susie wanted to go as far as her swing vote could take her and knew she was bottom person in that alliance. Not sure how well anyone could have disguised that fact as three Kota members were original alliance members, Bob was an original Kota member and Randy had worked harder to assure Kota he was throwing in with them. As for the idol, hardly sure Marcus, or a member of the Kota alliance, would have found it. Might have tried making a deal with Crystal to vote out Susie, but if you were Crystal, wouldn't you want to take the opportunity to vote out the strongest player from the formerly opposing tribe. Figure she would be suspicious that Marcus would be willing to forgo his former alliance in favor of Crystal.
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Aruba 1891 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Herbal Healing Drugs Endorser"
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11-08-08, 05:41 AM (EST)
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13. "RE: Lame twist" |
Hey Michel...not surprisingly I must disagree with your well thought-out rebuttal...
>- Putting 3 votes on Susie at the previous Kota TC was dumb.
I don't believe Marcus unilaterally ordered the weaklings to vote for Dan. No way he knew for sure if Dan had the idol or not. Randy would have known better as an original Fang member so I feel more of the "dumbness" rested with him. Either way...the Anti-Darwin Syndrome was going to play out with or without Marcus. Casting simply put him in the minority. >- Showing you have so much control on the game that you can throw away an idol was dumb. I couldn't disagree with you more on this one. With the HII clue known by all 10 players here is the scenario...Everyone goes on a scavenger hunt which gives Marcus a 10% chance of finding the HII; or throwing out the HII and have 100% that no one possesses it. Math was never my strong subject, but I would go with 100% over 10% anyday! Also with the result of the scavenger hunt it was Randy who ultimately possessed the HII and made the ultimate choice to toss it. Marcus never had his hands on it. >- Sitting between Randy and Corinne at the feast instead of
>mingling with Fang was dumb. It would have been smarter to blend in with everyone, but I wouldn't go so far to say it was "dumb". Having a 6-4 Kota advantage put him in the majority. By socializing with Fang you don't want to give your Kota allies any reason to suspect you might flip.
>- Making a deal with Crystal to vote out her ally
>instead of Susie was dumb.
I may have to gravitate toward some agreement on this one...but still wouldn't call it "dumb". Had that coincidental "relationship" between Marcus an Crystal not surfaced I truly don't believe Marcus says anything to Crystal about voting out Ken. >- Waiting for a challenge loss to reassure Susie she was
>F3 was dumb. So you make a promise you know you probably won't keep BEFORE you have to??? Rob M did that with Alicia in All-Stars. When he figured Amb"a" would be gone after a tribal switch he felt inclined to strike a deal with Alicia he knew he would never keep. As it turned out, Lex spared Amb"a" and he broke his deal with Alicia. This resulted in Alicia casting the fatal vote against Rob at Final TC and costing him the win. >- Talking about keeping the new Kota tribe strong when the
>vote depended on the weak Susie was dumb. If your original tribe has the numeric advantge, why not talk about keeping that advantage strong? The fact it depended on a weak Susie was not Marcus' doing as perfectly stated by gracor when this thread was stated. It was circumstantially created by CBS. How sad...How pathetic.
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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11-08-08, 06:38 PM (EST)
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16. "RE: Lame twist" |
1- Even if it wasn't Marcus' call, he still went along with it and then he stupidly called out Susie on her intention to vote out Corinne instead of reassuring her.2- It's tough to be good at Math when you don't have the problem straight. By "calling their bluff" as he said, Marcus made a majority of players angry at him. Matty, Sugar, Kenny and Crystal expressed their displeasure and who knows how Susie and Bob would have felt about the idol. Not only do you have the problem wrong but you seem to have forgotten the lessons of Fiji, China and Micronesia. Someone other than Marcus could have found the idol but so what? They would have become a bigger target than Marcus. An idol is so easy to flush that Marcus had no reason to impose his will on others. That's Survivor Suicide. In the end, Randy having the idol in his hands was in no way bad for Marcus at this stage.
(and yes, Marcus did have the idol in hand because he was the one that threw it out to sea!) 3- Mingling with the opposition during her birthday party was crucial to Danni's win and no one in her tribe thought she was doing it to flip. 4- Marcus didn't have to say anything to Crystal about voting out Kenny. He only needed Bob and Susie. His surprise connection to Crystal could have made him go with voting out Susie. Instead of chosing one or the other, he tried to have it both ways. Dumb. 5- Don't you see the difference between Marcus and Rob's situations? Rob wasn't in immediate danger, he didn't need to make a Final 2 deal with Alicia. Marcus was in mortal danger the moment he was switched. Look at the scene where Susie asks him for a top 3 deal. Marcus says nothing and then Susie has a confessional: “If I do switch, it’s his own fault because he didn’t give me a clear statement.” 6- "If your original tribe has the numeric advantge, why not talk about keeping that advantage strong?" Marcus told Jeff: I think it’s important to keep the tribe physically strong and ready for challenges” with Susie sitting right beside him. Don't you think she felt that as a threat? He didn't say he wanted to keep his numbers. In fact he denied it when Kenny accused him of BS.
Bob didn't help when he said he made a mistake voting out Dan when Susie was the alternative.
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Aruba 1891 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Herbal Healing Drugs Endorser"
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11-08-08, 08:19 PM (EST)
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17. "RE: Lame twist" |
1 - Marcus voted SUSIE; not DAN. The reason Dan was voted out was because the majority being the weak and pathetic targeted the strong and voted Dan. Your statement makes as much sense as a voter last Tuesday casting a vote for McCain, but because the majority wants Obama President, I guess the individual who voted McCain "went along with it".2 - Your response on this point makes about as much sense as a submarine with screen windows. Let's see... 10 players; 1 HII; 1/10 = 10%. Yep; I got it right.
I never said Randy having the HII in his hands was bad for Marcus. What I said was since Randy physically had the HII in his hands right from the sand it was his ultimate decision. Obviously you want to get into stupid symmetrics so two can play as this game...WRONG; technically Marcus did NOT have the HII in his hands...he had the BOTTLE in his hand...OK let's move on from that nonsense. You know what I meant. 3 - At Danni's B-Day party it was still early in the game where it was apparent that the interaction was short-lived and both tribes would immediately go back to their own camps after her B-Day party. So mingling with the possibility of a flip would not be a legitimate concern then. During last episode a merge seemed apparent so mingling at the feast WOULD have sent a signal of a potential flip. Let's keep apples with apples please. 4 - I agree he didn't have to say anything to Crystal. But it wasn't "dumb" that he discovered a coincidental connection with Crystal. I don't see it as an attempt of wanting it "both ways". I truly feel Marcus is just a genuinely nice guy who got caught up over the fact that a close relative of his best friend was playing the same Survivor game. 5 - Rob may not have been in "immediate" danger, but with Amb"a" out of the game, I believe his chances of making the Finals would have been remote without a quick substitution.
Come on now...Susie's confessional was nothing more than a lame smoke screen. What did you expect her to say? Golly Gee; because I am a pathetic waste of space let me vote off someone who's clearly better than me??? That's not happening. So what many many before her have done, she conjures up some lame crap to justify her Anti-Darwinism 6 - You're right about Bob's statement. Unfortunately he got caught up in the Anti-Darwinism with the four weakest targeting Dan and the three stronger targeting Susie. Of course in fairness to many of the events that occured this past episode, no one could have planned for a THIRD switch tremendously benefiting the weak and opposed.
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Aruba 1891 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Herbal Healing Drugs Endorser"
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11-08-08, 04:57 AM (EST)
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12. "RE: Lame twist" |
Outstanding post, garcor!Sadly Survivor has taken the approach that circumstance should decide the winner of the season and not merit. Especially when they cast more uesless, inept players than solid ones. So the stronger solid players are automatically placed in the minority right from the get-go. I'm sure Marcus and Randy wanted Dan over Susie. Bottom line, no way to convince the weaker players (Susie, Corinne, Bob, and Charlie) to keep someone stronger (Dan) over a weak useless waste like Susie. Just wasn't going the happen...the numbers aren't there. I still can't give much credit to Crystal. Sure Crystal worked Susie. But in life you make moves either by two ways: 1) Through inpiration, or 2) By desparation. #2 is a thousand times easier. Crystal's scrambling was by deparation so I'm not throwing her a morsal of credt. Unfortunately CBS doesn't cast enough REAL players who are inspiring, thus we get to see what we have seen the past several season...rubbish.
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Jims02 7328 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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11-08-08, 06:20 PM (EST)
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15. "RE: Lame twist" |
LAST EDITED ON 11-08-08 AT 06:21 PM (EST)It's lame, in that it tends to make the game a little too unpredictable. I don't mind it too much, because it would've been really, really, really, really, really, really boring to watch the Onion Alliance pick off everyone post-merge. As a viewer, it makes interesting television, to say the least. It was stoopid for the Onions to not cut Susie a deal after voting off Dan. Instead, they threw three votes at her and picked a fight the following evening. This is Survivor Strategy 101, here. Have a fake sub-alliance cut a Final 3 deal and get another person on your "team." If nothing changes and you go to TC, vote them off anyway. A delusionally loyal member is a good alliance member.  
Pooky is the Mole.
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iltarion 1791 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Herbal Healing Drugs Endorser"
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11-09-08, 04:56 AM (EST)
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19. "RE: Lame twist" |
This is a lot of discussion over something as simple as a switch allowing 3 members of one tribe to vote off the strongest member of another. Pretty simple stuff that we've seen before. And yeah, yeah, Suzie was a member of Kota, blah, blah, blah. No, actually, she was a member of Fang from the beginning. She was never any real part of Kota. Certain members of Kota never got along with her; so how hard was it for her to go back to Fang? Really, it was a bad move for her. Since Fang is a tribe of 4, it stands to reason that they are a tighter group than Kota. With Kota, Suzie could have stayed UTR while everyone went after the strong. We have seen it plenty of times before. On Fang, I really doubt she makes it any farther than F5.
I don't think the twist was lame or unfair to Marcus. His mistake was not making friends with Dan and bringing him into the fold. They should have had obvious things in common. The strong should have figured out by now that they need to band together or get picked off by the weak. It didn't appear that Marcus made any move to do this. Maybe he was too busy hanging with Corinne. Can't blame him there. I'd be on her like net stockings on a Goth.
On the other hand, Marcus did offer Suzie Final 3. I don't think WHEN he offered it makes any difference. There isn't anything more he could have offered. He foolishly talked about getting rid of Ken to Crystal, but if he talks about voting for Suzie, Crystal could have just ratted him out to Suzie, and he's dead there anyway.
The only problem I have with this late twist is like others have said already, these constant switches make the tribal part of the game less and less important. Fang got its A$$ whipped like few tribes before it, and yet here it is with the majority at merge. There is something seriously messed up with that.
Plus, as we saw with Fans vs. Faves, it really isn't fair when you give some players the chance to be on a tribe with everyone while other players are stuck on the same tribe the whole time and therefore don't get the chance to make alliances with as many people.>
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Jims02 7328 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"
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11-09-08, 09:10 AM (EST)
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22. "RE: Lame twist" |
LAST EDITED ON 11-09-08 AT 09:23 AM (EST)I don't think WHEN he offered it makes any difference. Eh, I don't know if I agree with you there. There is a subtle different, psychologically, in the timing. If you're offered a Final 3 agreement before the alliance pre-swap, it puts a little more doubt into your head that you're at the bottom of the totem pole. Hey, maybe Marcus you're in Marcus' plans and not Randy? This could work. Being offered the deal after the swap just looks like an easy, temporary fix on Marcus' part. People tend to say anything to get themselves through when things are tight, so it makes the promise look flimsy. We also have to remember that Susie wasn't the closest with Ken/Crystal anyway, game-wise, since she originally aligned with Matty/Randy/Dan at Fang. So, if they would've just tried pulling Susie into the fold more (a la Randy), it could've worked. Of course, that would probably require Corrinne to control her emotions/mouth for a couple seconds... So maybe the whole scenario is impossible from the get-go.
Of course, as you pointed out, the whole scenario is a bit easier if they would've kept Dan and not Susie, though.
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