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"S23 Recap Discussion/Spoiler thread"
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Brownroach 14241 desperate attention whore postings
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11-23-11, 03:43 PM (EST)
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"S23 Recap Discussion/Spoiler thread"
I don't remember if we usually have an East Coast thread for the recap (and I may not be watching tonight myself) but I'll start this now so that if anyone wants to comment on the episode while it's in progress they can do so, after which the thread can be used for continuing discussion.

Happy Thanksgiving everyone!

*** In memory of vince3 ***

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  Table of Contents

  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
 musical interlude dabo 11-23-11 1
 RE: S23 Recap Discussion/Spoiler th... Flowerpower 11-23-11 2
 RE: S23 Recap Discussion/Spoiler th... michel 11-23-11 3
   RE: S23 Recap Discussion/Spoiler th... Brownroach 11-23-11 4
       RE: S23 Recap Discussion/Spoiler th... 5cats 11-23-11 5
 RE: S23 Recap Discussion/Spoiler th... Brownroach 11-23-11 6
   RE: S23 Recap Discussion/Spoiler th... michel 11-23-11 8
 Survivor Recap? michel 11-23-11 7
   RE: Survivor Recap? dabo 11-23-11 9
       RE: Survivor Recap? michel 11-23-11 10
           RE: Survivor Recap? dabo 11-23-11 11
               RE: Survivor Recap? PepeLePew13 11-23-11 12
                   RE: Survivor Recap? dabo 11-23-11 13
                   RE: Survivor Recap? Belle Book 11-24-11 16
   RE: Survivor Recap? kiki_k 11-24-11 14
       RE: Survivor Recap? dabo 11-24-11 15
       RE: Survivor Recap? michel 11-24-11 17
       RE: Survivor Recap? Toban 11-24-11 18
           RE: Survivor Recap? michel 11-24-11 19
               RE: Survivor Recap? Belle Book 11-24-11 20
                   RE: Survivor Recap? michel 11-24-11 21
                       RE: Survivor Recap? Outfrontgirl 11-24-11 22
                           RE: Survivor Recap? michel 11-24-11 23
                           RE: Survivor Recap? Toban 11-25-11 24
                               RE: Survivor Recap? michel 11-25-11 28
                                   RE: Survivor Recap? Outfrontgirl 11-25-11 29
                                       RE: Survivor Recap? michel 11-25-11 30
                                           RE: Survivor Recap? Outfrontgirl 11-26-11 32
                                               RE: Survivor Recap? michel 11-26-11 33
                       RE: Survivor Recap? Toban 11-25-11 25
                           RE: Survivor Recap? dabo 11-25-11 26
                               RE: Survivor Recap? Toban 11-25-11 27
                                   RE: Survivor Recap? michel 11-25-11 31
 RE: S23 Recap Discussion/Spoiler th... SquidProQuo 11-26-11 34
   RE: S23 Recap Discussion/Spoiler th... michel 11-26-11 35
 RE: S23 Recap Discussion/Spoiler th... Outfrontgirl 11-26-11 36
   RE: S23 Recap Discussion/Spoiler th... michel 11-26-11 37

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dabo 25344 desperate attention whore postings
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11-23-11, 04:27 PM (EST)
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1. "musical interlude"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jW1vWgogLQ
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Flowerpower 7012 desperate attention whore postings
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11-23-11, 06:13 PM (EST)
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2. "RE: S23 Recap Discussion/Spoiler thread"
LAST EDITED ON 11-23-11 AT 06:16 PM (EST)


Sorry, Brownroach, I won't be able to do the writing it up tonight! Hope everyone here has a wonderful Thanksgiving. I will be thankful for all of you this year, as I have for the past... is it 10 years? Hope you all have a wonderfully filling Holiday! In all ways!



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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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11-23-11, 06:29 PM (EST)
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3. "RE: S23 Recap Discussion/Spoiler thread"
Happy Thanksgiving to all of you!

Up North of the border, it's just an ordinary (snowy) Wednesday evening so I may post a few comments right after. Hopefully we will get some funny new scenes but I think this season is hopeless as far as comedy is concerned.

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Brownroach 14241 desperate attention whore postings
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11-23-11, 06:57 PM (EST)
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4. "RE: S23 Recap Discussion/Spoiler thread"
I think it's hopeless as far as *everything* is concerned.

I'll probably be watching after all, so I may chime in with a few observations.

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5cats 1048 desperate attention whore postings
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11-23-11, 08:36 PM (EST)
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5. "RE: S23 Recap Discussion/Spoiler thread"
Cockran's reaction to Ozzy killing the chicken may be funny. Maybe he'll throw up.
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Brownroach 14241 desperate attention whore postings
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11-23-11, 10:11 PM (EST)
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6. "RE: S23 Recap Discussion/Spoiler thread"
It basically focused on the same four people that have gotten the attention all along: Coach, Ozzy, Cochran (particularly), and Brandon. The Keith-Whitney relationship was played up quite a bit. Sophie got a brief positive segment at the very end.

Next week preview a bit vague; initially suggests Rick may be target.

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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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11-23-11, 10:14 PM (EST)
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8. "RE: S23 Recap Discussion/Spoiler thread"
Rick may be target."

They'll have to find him first!

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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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11-23-11, 10:12 PM (EST)
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7. "Survivor Recap?"
No, that wasn't a season recap, that was the pilot for a spin-off: The Coach and Cochran show.

Outside of those two though, the show really trashed Ozzy (Something I enjoyed tremendously). Coach calling him Narcissus was perfect. Then laughing at Ozzy's idea of shelter and how it explained why he never won. Finally, Coach fooled Ozzy about the merge vote. Ozzy himself showed his limitations, especially when he wanted to keep the fish only for Savaii.

PS. for those that thought Cochran hadn't been bullied, I say that forcing a PETA supporter to assist in killing a chicken at then laughiing at him about it certainly qualifies as bullying. Forcing someone to sleep on the ground without a blanket and a pillow is also bullying. Savaii was so dysfunctional that I have trouble understanding Dawn's refusal to flip.

Brandon also played a role but the rest? Ignored just as during the season. Albert particularly was trashed for having stupid ideas. Coach was shown with so much control that Sophie's cautious approach will lead to a repeat of last season.

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dabo 25344 desperate attention whore postings
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11-23-11, 10:37 PM (EST)
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9. "RE: Survivor Recap?"
Ozzy's secret alliance offer to Coach was even dumber than his RI plan. Ozzy didn't mean it, of course, but Coach or any Upolu he shared that with could easily drop that bomb on Ozzy should he make it to Final. "So, Ozzy, before Keith was even voted out you offered to take Coach to the end, is that right?" Ozzy didn't mean it, of course, but still it was dumb.
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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11-23-11, 10:54 PM (EST)
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10. "RE: Survivor Recap?"
Yep, I agree but do you agree that they really piled it on Ozzy? It was almost as if, all of a sudden, the editors told us: By the way, we have been lying to you during his three seasons but Ozzy is really a dumbass.
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dabo 25344 desperate attention whore postings
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11-23-11, 11:33 PM (EST)
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11. "RE: Survivor Recap?"
Totally agree, and that was fun to watch. (Except for the killing scene, that was inexcusable, especially since it doesn't really take two people to kill a chicken.) Kind of surprising how they dragged heroic Ozzy through the mud, I thought they would milk that edit until he lost a duel.
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PepeLePew13 24731 desperate attention whore postings
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11-23-11, 11:44 PM (EST)
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12. "RE: Survivor Recap?"
My thinking is that the editors are laying the groundwork for both of the returnees to be painted negatively so the viewers will be prepped for their eventual demises (whether by losing at RI or losing in the final TC) and there would be a shift toward the eventual winner over the next three episodes.

I did not think either Coach or Ozzy were painted positively at all in this recap.

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dabo 25344 desperate attention whore postings
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11-23-11, 11:53 PM (EST)
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13. "RE: Survivor Recap?"
Yeah, the pigfat scene especially showed how petty and mean Coach can be.
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Belle Book 3556 desperate attention whore postings
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11-24-11, 01:18 PM (EST)
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16. "RE: Survivor Recap?"
I agree -- I think the trashing of Coach and Ozzy in the recrap is meant simply to imply that neither one will win -- Ozzy by losing either at RI or (more likely) losing one of the last Immunity Challenges and being sent to the jury, and Coach by losing at the final TC.

Incidentally, the fact that Albert also was trashed (though not as much as Coach or Ozzy) while Sophie was not may imply that if both reach the final TC Sophie will beat Albert. And if Coach is there as well, Sophie might win it all.

Belle Book

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kiki_k 1444 desperate attention whore postings
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11-24-11, 01:07 AM (EST)
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14. "RE: Survivor Recap?"
You, of course, couldn't be more wrong if you tried. The killing the chicken scene could only be considered "bullying" if, in fact, John told the others he was a PETA supporter (and in that case, he should have refused to eat any chicken or fish -- he can't have it both ways). We don't know that he did tell them that as he only told us that he kinda was in a confessional (and not really very forcefully or believably -- I noted his leather belt). Unlike, say, Coach who, after Mikayla told him she was sick from all the pork, fried up some pork fat, ate it & pretended to throw up just to make her sick.

And there was plenty of talk about how much the others liked John -- so even if that "bullying train" hadn't already left the station with the Jim & Keith post-boot interviews, it certainly wasn't revived tonight by any alleged (imagined) "forcing" him to sleep without a blanket (on Survivor! without a blanket! OMFG how could they!) when Ozzy & Jim were both shown, repeatedly, sleeping on the ground without blankets.

And if you missed the irony of Coach naming Ozzy "Narcissus" while he named himself "Zeus," I can't help you. Coach's comment that it was no wonder Ozzy "hadn't won Survivor before" was also dripping with irony. Can you guess how? (hint, in both cases Coach is projecting).

The recap wasn't good for Ozzy if you believe Coach, I mean, ZEUS, who had all the negative things to say about him, because despite all his criticism of Ozzy, Te Tuna is starving without him. Yeah, Ozzy wanted to be selfish about feeding former Upolu, but Dawn talked sense into him & he shared -- his thinking about it isn't the same as his doing it like he did on Cook Islands. Plus, he's going to share with his competitors on RI (the new, improved Ozzy). Brandon calling Ozzy rude? Again, irony.

The whole reminding everyone of "selfish Ozzy" was just throwing doubt on his eventual return from RI (and most likely win) after the OTT positive edit he's gotten the last 2 episodes.* The most significant thing in the recap (besides showing, once & for all, that neither Coach nor John -- he feels the "dragon blood" seeping into his pores & totally bought into Coach naming him Hercules -- is winning this thing) was the shot of the Ozzy stand-in right after the beginning summary of the season so far & right before the opening credits -- the Ozzy stand in (same build, same hair, same swim suit) is on a cliff with a wave crashing around him holding a lit torch over his head.

*Yes, I know the Sophie supporters are going to say the recap was "good" for her, but it was, at best, neutral towards her. Sure, it reminded us she was "there" but the recap didn't show her in anything more than a narrator role still about what other people were doing nor did it even bother to mention her 2 back to back IC wins. She's still the only possible one that can pull an upset win, but she'd still be the worst edited "winner" in the show's history.

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dabo 25344 desperate attention whore postings
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11-24-11, 01:21 AM (EST)
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15. "RE: Survivor Recap?"
LAST EDITED ON 11-24-11 AT 02:11 AM (EST)

But you should take into account what Jeff says in v-o.

"Coach was a kind and benevolent father to his family, but not so much to outsiders..." set up the pigfat scene.

"To add insult to injury, Ozzy went out of his way to put Cochran in uncomfortable situations, making him an object of ridicule." right as they were taking the rooster to the chopping block. (I wouldn't call it bullying, really, but ostracism.)

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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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11-24-11, 04:51 PM (EST)
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17. "RE: Survivor Recap?"
Dabo already answered this quite nicely but, since it was my "portion" I feel I should reply, give thanks if you will for such a nice set-up:

>The killing the chicken scene could
>only be considered "bullying" if,
>in fact, John told the
>others he was a PETA
>supporter

No, all he had to do was tell them he didn't want to do it. The scene told us he was forced to hold the chicken.
Forcing someone to do something they don't want to do = Bullying.

(and in that case,
>he should have refused to
>eat any chicken or fish
>-- he can't have it
>both ways).

I would hope that someone can be against cruelty to animals and still eat meat. In every other occasion, the tribe asked around who wanted to do the nasty job. No one was ever forced to participate in the actual killing. Huge difference.


>We don't know
>that he did tell them
>that

He was being dragged to the killing zone. Isn't that enough?

>And there was plenty of talk
>about how much the others
>liked John

They "liked" the guy that made them laugh. Liking isn't respecting. Dawn told us that they didn't treat him as an equal. That really should be enough to convince everyone that Cochran wasn't treated right.


>so even
>if that "bullying train" hadn't
>already left the station with
>the Jim & Keith post-boot
>interviews,

Post-boot interviews!!!! As if there's never any positive spin done by losers to make themselves look good!


it certainly wasn't revived
>tonight by any alleged (imagined)
>"forcing" him to sleep without
>a blanket (on Survivor! without
>a blanket! OMFG how could
>they!) when Ozzy & Jim
>were both shown, repeatedly, sleeping
>on the ground without blankets.

The team had blankets. Keithney simply didn't want to share. And, if Ozzy is dumb enough to sleep on the ground that's his choice.


>And if you missed the irony
>of Coach naming Ozzy "Narcissus"
>while he named himself "Zeus,"
>I can't help you.

I get it, don't worry. It's the choice of Narcissus in the whole panoply of gods that was perfect. Of course, Coach would name himself Zeus, no surprise there, but Narcissus cracked me up.


>Coach's
>comment that it was no
>wonder Ozzy "hadn't won Survivor
>before" was also dripping with
>irony. Can you guess how?
>(hint, in both cases Coach
>is projecting).

And that would be bad how??? Do you take me for a Coach fan?!! But we will see if he indeed loses. Not so sure about that.


>The recap wasn't good for Ozzy
>if you believe Coach,
>I mean, ZEUS, who had
>all the negative things to
>say about him,

I believe my ears and I couldn't stop laughing at all the crap Ozzy was receiving from all sides, particularly from Jeff.


>The whole reminding everyone of "selfish
>Ozzy" was just throwing doubt
>on his eventual return from
>RI (and most likely win)

LOL!


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Toban 110 desperate attention whore postings
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11-24-11, 06:08 PM (EST)
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18. "RE: Survivor Recap?"
For me, the recap was the "Coach and Cochran" show. (Which makes me feel very uneasy that one of these two knobs will win). I have to agree with Michel that the Ozzy-trashing was not just through the eyes of Coach but was also done by Jeff via voice-overs (and a couple of comments by others). The Jeff narration is what has convinced me that Ozzy can't win.

FWIW, I think Coach came off as a tool too, albeit a much more well-rounded one. I can see how he could win (ugh...I hope not) but the character-assassination seems a little late in the game to set him up as the winner.

Albert was made to look like a fool. (As per Sophie: making big moves just for the sake of making big moves)

Brandon, Edna, Rick, Dawn and Whitney were all irrelevant minor characters. Brandon got more recap airtime because he's a "character".

I am still holding out for Sophie. She came off in the recap, as she has all season, as thoughtful and articulate. I'm hoping that her otherwise weak edit is due to the fact that Survivor doesn't know how to edit women like her and that she might pull off a victory.

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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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11-24-11, 06:57 PM (EST)
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19. "RE: Survivor Recap?"
What is different between Sophie and, say, Amanda? You can't say Amanda was a big character and she kept her head in the game. Why not show Sophie at least as much as Amanda was shown in China? Hell, even Denise had a better edit than Sophie!!!!!!
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Belle Book 3556 desperate attention whore postings
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11-24-11, 07:55 PM (EST)
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20. "RE: Survivor Recap?"
You forgot one thing about Amanda -- she may have kept her head in the game for the most part in China and Fans vs. Favorites (except when she was involved with Ozzy), but she choked in the final Tribal Council -- both times! You just can't choke when you're facing the jury! In fact, the only thing worse than choking in that situation is totally ignoring the jury, as we saw in the two seasons Troll faced the jury!

As for why Sophie isn't being shown as much as Amanda is shown in China, one reason: there weren't as many larger-than-life characters in that season. We have Coach, we have Cochran, we have Ozzy, and we have Brandon. That means people like Sophie, who have their head in the game as well, will be ignored.

Belle Book

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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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11-24-11, 09:55 PM (EST)
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21. "RE: Survivor Recap?"
Please... First of all, Amanda's jury performance is completely irrelevant because we don't even know if Sophie will face the jury. One step at a time. As for larger than life characters: HA! HA! HA! That's my answer to that.

You had James who was larger than Coach and Ozzy put together. You had Courtney who was funnier than anyone this season. You had Jean Robert who was as vile as Brandon, You had Todd who was certainly as big a fan and a bigger player than Cochran. You had PG who had a very nice, complete edit and you had crazy David Crusher who was a larger pre-merge character than anyone this season. Despite all that, Jaime, Erik, Denise and Frosty had more airtime than Rick, Edna and Whitney. So my question remains: Why didn't Sophie get at least Amanda's airtime?

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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings
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11-24-11, 10:28 PM (EST)
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22. "RE: Survivor Recap?"
Put them side by side in bikinis ... question answered.
Remember how The Blur was Amanda's constant companion in China?
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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11-24-11, 11:13 PM (EST)
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23. "RE: Survivor Recap?"
Kelly S. was pretty hot in a bikini but was ignored. Natalie T, last season was ignored even if she was hot. Whitney was ignored this season. Anyway, Sophie looks better than Denise in a bathing suit and, like I pointed out, Denise still had more story.
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Toban 110 desperate attention whore postings
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11-25-11, 01:19 AM (EST)
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24. "RE: Survivor Recap?"
That was going to be my first response too (as to why level-headed, boring Amanda got more air time than Sophie). Amanda was possibly the hottest female player ever to have played the game. Appearance-wise, Sophie is average, at best.

The other reason may be that Amanda had a "big move", that being her masterminding the James blindside. What if Sophie's best game has no "big moves"? That's what her edit seems to suggest. The recap made it clear that she (and probably most viewers) felt it was foolish to stab your family members in the back when they're all going to be on the jury. Maybe the editors don't know how to handle that kind of game when it's combined with a low-key, level-headed player.

Anyway, part of my Sophie support is based on me grasping at straws. I don't want to see Cochran win and I really don't want to see Coach win so she's all I got left.

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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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11-25-11, 09:43 AM (EST)
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28. "RE: Survivor Recap?"
Amanda being hottest is certainly questionable but, like I said, other beautiful women were ignored. The biggest such edit bungle was not showing us more of Jenn in Palau. No one ever had a more beautiful presence than her.

As for the move against James, it wasn't even Amanda's move. Todd had said the same thing she did two episodes before when, at the last minute, he switched it up to boot JR. Amanda was shown deciding to boot James to get the blame, not the credit!! The whole thing could have easily been edited as another move by Todd especially since James voted for Courtney in the end.

But, I can understand grasping at straws...

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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings
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11-25-11, 06:12 PM (EST)
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29. "RE: Survivor Recap?"
Amanda was a beautiful woman who made F3 that season. That distinguishes her from hot babes that were dumped early or even late.

I don't know why they ignored radiant Jenn. Another UTR F4 edit.

But she didn't have Amanda'a athleticism or bikini popping body, and, most importantly, she didn't get to the finals. Once Gregg was out at F6, Jenn's game was over. She had no game other than being a dominant alliance Koror and allied with Gregg.

That said, I think the editors made a big mistake in not sharing more of her with the audience.

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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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11-25-11, 09:50 PM (EST)
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30. "RE: Survivor Recap?"
I do know why they ignored Jenn: Pre-merge she went up against Stephenie in many challenges and Steph beat her repeatedly. The audience was supposed to fall in love with Steph so they had to hide Jenn so that no one saw Steph as a bully picking on the beautiful, smaller woman.

Other beautiful women made the finals and were hidden: Becky and Natalie T for example. The reason for ignoring them was easy to figure out: They didn't get any votes so they were irrelevant. That should be the only explanation for Sophie if she does make the finals. Or it could be that the winner isn't widely liked so they can't have a finalist being more popular.

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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings
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11-26-11, 01:32 AM (EST)
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32. "RE: Survivor Recap?"
>>> Other beautiful women made the finals and were hidden: Becky and Natalie T for example.

Do you really not see how Amanda was different?
Why she has played three times and these other two never came back?
If you can't see it, I can't explain it to you.

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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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11-26-11, 01:53 AM (EST)
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33. "RE: Survivor Recap?"
You think Amanda playing three times means anything? Now that's funny as seen here:


http://funny115.com/v2/112.htm

Besides that, in FvF, Courtney was SEG's first choice but she turned them down.

Amanda owed her HvV invite mostly because she was part of Parvati's entourage.

Bottom line: Beauty doesn't guarantee airtime.

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Toban 110 desperate attention whore postings
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11-25-11, 01:21 AM (EST)
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25. "RE: Survivor Recap?"
Who the heck is David Crusher? Google got me nothing.
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dabo 25344 desperate attention whore postings
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11-25-11, 01:35 AM (EST)
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26. "RE: Survivor Recap?"
Dave Cruser, fourth person voted out of Survivor: China.
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Toban 110 desperate attention whore postings
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11-25-11, 03:30 AM (EST)
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27. "RE: Survivor Recap?"
Ah, that spelling works. I barely remember him though.
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"

11-25-11, 09:53 PM (EST)
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31. "RE: Survivor Recap?"
He's the guy that was obsessed with building the perfect fire-pit. He thought it would be a good idea to get naked before a wrestling challenge. He also had some funny fights with Ashley and Sherea. Quite a character.
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SquidProQuo 2281 desperate attention whore postings
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11-26-11, 06:23 PM (EST)
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34. "RE: S23 Recap Discussion/Spoiler thread"
I just watched the recap on tape and am surprised that no one's brought up Jeff's comment that Coach "bedazzled" Cochran to go from 6th in one alliance to 7th in another. That should be the nail in the coffin for anyone who was still holding out hope that Cochran's the winner....especially coming on top of Jeff's prior comment that Coach "seduced" Cochran. Not to mention the goofy music, poop in the pants story, etc.)

Definitely agree that the "selfish" comment and constantly foiled plans = Albert's not winning.

But I disagree with those who felt it was a terrible edit for Coach in the recap. Seems to me that the central theme was Coach is in control and he's the father figure. I think Coach and Sophie are the only 2 who have a shot to win....with Ozzy a long shot.
Sophie's chopping shot that was shown a couple times at the very end really caught my eye and could be symbolic that she's the only really calling the shots behind the shots and will decide who's head is on the chopping block next.

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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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11-26-11, 06:39 PM (EST)
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35. "RE: S23 Recap Discussion/Spoiler thread"
>I...am surprised that
>no one's brought up Jeff's
>comment that Coach "bedazzled" Cochran

That's because the discussion has moved to the editing thread.

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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings
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11-26-11, 08:05 PM (EST)
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36. "RE: S23 Recap Discussion/Spoiler thread"
Proposed title for this recrap:
A closer look at the Massive Casting Fail that was Survivor South Pacific.

Focused on all the people who didn't thrive or weren't ready for the challenge and how the two tribal "daddies" "parented" their miscast charges.

Ignored casting choices who were ready for the game and didn't need special handling --Jim and Sophie and Rick Who? Demonstrated that Keithney should have been cast on Big Brother where there are enough beds that showmancers only need to share a room with third parties, not the blanket.

Demonstrated again that without a pre-merge swap, the two tribes have o hope to become one tribe at the merge.

I think the chicken scene was perfect to symbolize this season. They should never have let it loose. They should have bitten it right in the jugular and ended it.

How bad is a season when Cochran's I pooped in my pants so that no one would know I pooped story is a highlight.

Maybe Cochran is the chicken. He did identify with said chicken. He did talk about getting eaten. And the recap told us that the Tribe Is Hungry.

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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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11-26-11, 10:19 PM (EST)
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37. "RE: S23 Recap Discussion/Spoiler thread"

>Demonstrated again that without a pre-merge
>swap, the two tribes have
> no hope to become
>one tribe at the merge.

A pre-merge swap isn't really a solution though as we have often seen tribes throwing challenges to keep their allies safe. That, in my opinion, is even worse. This season, the problem was compounded by the fact that the two returning players have always been strategic morons.


The bloated jury, the absence of reward challenges where players pick some to share, redemption island and the F3 all work together to prevent flipping.

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