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"The Players, The Game, The Editing - Survivor South Pacific (post-merge) II"
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dabo 25344 desperate attention whore postings
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11-04-11, 00:06 AM (EST)
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"The Players, The Game, The Editing - Survivor South Pacific (post-merge) II"
LAST EDITED ON 11-05-11 AT 05:29 PM (EST)

Please continue the discussion here. The original thread has gotten long and unweildy. It is here for reference

http://community.realitytvworld.com/boards/DCForumID2/7706.shtml

ETA: Oh, right, keep this thread spoiler-free, please. Enjoy the rest of the season. (The founder of the editing thread may assume authority over this thread should she so desire.)

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  Table of Contents

  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
 RE: The Players, The Game, The Edit... samboohoo 11-04-11 1
   RE: The Players, The Game, The Edit... dabo 11-04-11 2
 RE: The Players, The Game, The Edit... glennyfromtheblock 11-05-11 3
   RE: The Players, The Game, The Edit... Outfrontgirl 11-05-11 4
   RE: The Players, The Game, The Edit... dabo 11-05-11 6
       RE: The Players, The Game, The Edit... Belle Book 11-05-11 7
           RE: The Players, The Game, The Edit... dabo 11-05-11 9
               RE: The Players, The Game, The Edit... Belle Book 11-05-11 10
               RE: The Players, The Game, The Edit... kiki_k 11-05-11 11
                   RE: The Players, The Game, The Edit... Corvis 11-05-11 12
                       RE: The Players, The Game, The Edit... kiki_k 11-05-11 14
                       RE: The Players, The Game, The Edit... Belle Book 11-05-11 17
                   RE: The Players, The Game, The Edit... dabo 11-05-11 23
                       RE: The Players, The Game, The Edit... kiki_k 11-06-11 24
                           RE: The Players, The Game, The Edit... dabo 11-06-11 30
   RE: The Players, The Game, The Edit... PepeLePew13 11-05-11 8
   RE: The Players, The Game, The Edit... michel 11-06-11 35
 I Don't Believe in Redemption! Outfrontgirl 11-05-11 5
   RE: I Don't Believe in Redemption! Corvis 11-05-11 13
 Episode 8 - Editing thoughts: michel 11-05-11 15
   RE: Episode 8 - Editing thoughts: PepeLePew13 11-05-11 16
       RE: Episode 8 - Editing thoughts: michel 11-05-11 19
           RE: Episode 8 - Editing thoughts: Belle Book 11-05-11 21
       RE: Episode 8 - Editing thoughts: glennyfromtheblock 11-05-11 20
   RE: Episode 8 - Editing thoughts: Belle Book 11-05-11 18
       RE: Episode 8 - Editing thoughts: Outfrontgirl 11-05-11 22
   RE: Episode 8 - Editing thoughts: kiki_k 11-06-11 25
       RE: Episode 8 - Editing thoughts: Corvis 11-06-11 26
           RE: Episode 8 - Editing thoughts: PepeLePew13 11-06-11 29
               RE: Episode 8 - Editing thoughts: kiki_k 11-06-11 31
                   RE: Episode 8 - Editing thoughts: PepeLePew13 11-06-11 33
           RE: Episode 8 - Editing thoughts: kiki_k 11-06-11 32
               RE: Episode 8 - Editing thoughts: Corvis 11-06-11 37
       RE: Episode 8 - Editing thoughts: Belle Book 11-06-11 39
           RE: Episode 8 - Editing thoughts: Brownroach 11-07-11 49
       RE: Episode 8 - Editing thoughts: Flowerpower 11-07-11 43
           RE: Episode 8 - Editing thoughts: michel 11-07-11 51
               RE: Episode 8 - Editing thoughts: Flowerpower 11-07-11 52
   RE: Episode 8 - Editing thoughts: blueeyed 11-06-11 27
       RE: Episode 8 - Editing thoughts: Corvis 11-06-11 28
       RE: Episode 8 - Editing thoughts: michel 11-06-11 34
           RE: Episode 8 - Editing thoughts: blueeyed 11-06-11 36
           RE: Episode 8 - Editing thoughts: Slider 11-06-11 41
               RE: Episode 8 - Editing thoughts: michel 11-06-11 42
                   RE: Episode 8 - Editing thoughts: parathor 11-07-11 44
   RE: Episode 8 - Editing thoughts: Dangerous 11-06-11 38
       RE: Episode 8 - Editing thoughts: dabo 11-06-11 40
           RE: Episode 8 - Editing thoughts: stu45 11-07-11 45
               RE: Episode 8 - Editing thoughts: Belle Book 11-07-11 46
                   RE: Episode 8 - Editing thoughts: dabo 11-07-11 47
                   RE: Episode 8 - Editing thoughts: Corvis 11-07-11 48
   Revisiting Dawn's Edit michel 11-07-11 50
       RE: Revisiting Dawn's Edit Flowerpower 11-07-11 53
           RE: Revisiting Dawn's Edit michel 11-07-11 56
       RE: Revisiting Dawn's Edit blueeyed 11-07-11 54
           RE: Revisiting Dawn's Edit michel 11-07-11 55
       RE: Revisiting Dawn's Edit dabo 11-08-11 57
       RE: Cochran = Anakin? parathor 11-08-11 58
           RE: Cochran = Anakin? stu45 11-08-11 59
               RE: Cochran = Anakin? PepeLePew13 11-08-11 60
                   Nerd love Outfrontgirl 11-08-11 61
       RE: Revisiting Dawn's Edit Outfrontgirl 11-08-11 62
           RE: Revisiting Dawn's Edit michel 11-08-11 63
               RE: Revisiting Dawn's Edit Outfrontgirl 11-08-11 64
                   RE: Revisiting Dawn's Edit Belle Book 11-09-11 65
                   RE: Revisiting Dawn's Edit Delurker_MN 11-10-11 66
 Episode 9 - Editing Thoughts: michel 11-12-11 67
   RE: Episode 9 - Editing Thoughts: Delurker_MN 11-12-11 68
       RE: Episode 9 - Editing Thoughts: michel 11-13-11 74
   RE: Episode 9 - Editing Thoughts: Belle Book 11-12-11 69
       RE: Episode 9 - Editing Thoughts: Slider 11-12-11 70
           RE: Episode 9 - Editing Thoughts: rose1974 11-13-11 71
               RE: Episode 9 - Editing Thoughts: michel 11-13-11 73
           RE: Episode 9 - Editing Thoughts: michel 11-13-11 72
               RE: Episode 9 - Editing Thoughts: Belle Book 11-13-11 75
   RE: Episode 9 - Editing Thoughts: parathor 11-14-11 76
 Jim (potential juror) assesses Coch... Outfrontgirl 11-15-11 77
   RE: Jim (potential juror) assesses ... Outfrontgirl 11-15-11 78
       RE: Jim (potential juror) assesses ... stu45 11-15-11 79
           RE: Jim (potential juror) assesses ... Outfrontgirl 11-15-11 80
       RE: Jim (potential juror) assesses ... michel 11-15-11 81
           Just FYI dabo 11-16-11 82
           RE: Jim (potential juror) assesses ... Outfrontgirl 11-16-11 83
           some John edit stuff OllieKat 11-16-11 84
               RE: some John edit stuff dabo 11-16-11 85
               RE: some John edit stuff michel 11-16-11 88
                   RE: some John edit stuff dabo 11-16-11 90
                       RE: some John edit stuff michel 11-16-11 91
               RE: some John edit stuff stu45 11-17-11 97
       RE: Jim (potential juror) assesses ... VerucaSalt 11-16-11 86
           RE: Jim (potential juror) assesses ... Booted 11-16-11 87
           RE: Jim (potential juror) assesses ... Outfrontgirl 11-16-11 89
 Ozzy kiki_k 11-17-11 92
   RE: Ozzy baddove 11-17-11 93
       RE: Ozzy kiki_k 11-17-11 94
           I will add this though kiki_k 11-17-11 96
               RE: I will add this though parathor 11-17-11 111
                   RE: I will add this though kiki_k 11-17-11 113
       RE: Ozzy Lasann 11-17-11 95
   RE: Ozzy Scarlett O Hara 11-17-11 98
       RE: Ozzy Lasann 11-18-11 131
   RE: Ozzy Flowerpower 11-17-11 99
       RE: Ozzy PepeLePew13 11-17-11 100
           RE: Ozzy Belle Book 11-17-11 110
   RE: Ozzy michel 11-17-11 101
       RE: Ozzy Flowerpower 11-17-11 102
           RE: Ozzy michel 11-17-11 104
               RE: Ozzy CTgirl 11-17-11 107
           RE: Ozzy michel 11-17-11 105
           LMFAO! kiki_k 11-17-11 108
               RE: LMFAO! michel 11-17-11 114
                   RE: LMFAO! kiki_k 11-17-11 115
                       RE: LMFAO! michel 11-17-11 116
                       RE: LMFAO! dabo 11-18-11 117
                           RE: LMFAO! Outfrontgirl 11-18-11 118
                       RE: LMFAO! Delurker_MN 11-18-11 119
                           RE: LMFAO! kiki_k 11-18-11 122
   RE: Ozzy CTgirl 11-17-11 103
   RE: Ozzy Belle Book 11-17-11 106
       RE: Ozzy kiki_k 11-17-11 109
       One more thing kiki_k 11-17-11 112
       RE: Ozzy Delurker_MN 11-18-11 120
           Sophie power Outfrontgirl 11-18-11 121
               RE: Sophie power Outfrontgirl 11-18-11 123
               RE: Sophie power kiki_k 11-18-11 124
               RE: Sophie power Flowerpower 11-18-11 125
               RE: Sophie power Belle Book 11-18-11 126
                   RE: Sophie power Flowerpower 11-18-11 127
                       RE: Sophie power Belle Book 11-18-11 128
               RE: Sophie power glennyfromtheblock 11-18-11 129
                   RE: Sophie power Belle Book 11-18-11 130
                       RE: Sophie power Outfrontgirl 11-19-11 132
                           RE: Sophie power PepeLePew13 11-19-11 141
                               RE: Sophie power Outfrontgirl 11-19-11 142
 Episode 10 - Editing Thoughts michel 11-19-11 133
   RE: Episode 10 - Editing Thoughts dabo 11-19-11 134
       RE: Episode 10 - Editing Thoughts michel 11-19-11 137
   RE: Episode 10 - Editing Thoughts rose1974 11-19-11 135
       RE: Episode 10 - Editing Thoughts kiki_k 11-19-11 136
       RE: Episode 10 - Editing Thoughts michel 11-19-11 138
   RE: Episode 10 - Editing Thoughts Belle Book 11-19-11 139
   RE: Episode 10 - Editing Thoughts Flowerpower 11-19-11 140
       RE: Episode 10 - Editing Thoughts Outfrontgirl 11-19-11 143
           RE: Episode 10 - Editing Thoughts Belle Book 11-19-11 146
               In fairness kiki_k 11-19-11 147
                   RE: In fairness Belle Book 11-20-11 149
       RE: Episode 10 - Editing Thoughts kiki_k 11-19-11 144
           RE: Episode 10 - Editing Thoughts PepeLePew13 11-20-11 150
               RE: Episode 10 - Editing Thoughts michel 11-20-11 151
                   RE: Episode 10 - Editing Thoughts PepeLePew13 11-20-11 152
                   RE: Episode 10 - Editing Thoughts kiki_k 11-20-11 153
                       RE: Episode 10 - Editing Thoughts Outfrontgirl 11-20-11 154
                           RE: Episode 10 - Editing Thoughts kiki_k 11-21-11 155
                               RE: Episode 10 - Editing Thoughts dabo 11-21-11 156
                                   RE: Episode 10 - Editing Thoughts PepeLePew13 11-21-11 160
                                       RE: Episode 10 - Editing Thoughts michel 11-21-11 163
                                           RE: Episode 10 - Editing Thoughts dabo 11-21-11 164
                                               RE: Episode 10 - Editing Thoughts michel 11-21-11 165
                                                   RE: Episode 10 - Editing Thoughts dabo 11-21-11 166
                                                       RE: Episode 10 - Editing Thoughts Belle Book 11-21-11 168
                                   Missing the point kiki_k 11-21-11 167
                               RE: Episode 10 - Editing Thoughts Outfrontgirl 11-23-11 178
       RE: Episode 10 - Editing Thoughts michel 11-19-11 145
           RE: Episode 10 - Editing Thoughts kiki_k 11-19-11 148
           RE: Episode 10 - Editing Thoughts parathor 11-21-11 157
               RE: Episode 10 - Editing Thoughts michel 11-21-11 158
                   RE: Episode 10 - Editing Thoughts parathor 11-21-11 159
                       RE: Episode 10 - Editing Thoughts michel 11-21-11 161
                   RE: Episode 10 - Editing Thoughts kiki_k 11-21-11 162
                       RE: Episode 10 - Editing Thoughts Belle Book 11-21-11 169
 Revisit Women's Edit Thing dabo 11-22-11 170
   RE: Revisit Women's Edit Thing kiki_k 11-22-11 171
       RE: Revisit Women's Edit Thing dabo 11-22-11 172
           RE: Revisit Women's Edit Thing kiki_k 11-23-11 177
               RE: Revisit Women's Edit Thing Outfrontgirl 11-23-11 179
               RE: Revisit Women's Edit Thing Georjanna 11-23-11 181
   RE: Revisit Women's Edit Thing michel 11-22-11 173
       RE: Revisit Women's Edit Thing dabo 11-22-11 174
           RE: Revisit Women's Edit Thing michel 11-22-11 175
               RE: Revisit Women's Edit Thing dabo 11-23-11 176
 Thoughts on the CBS website clips Outfrontgirl 11-23-11 180
   RE: Thoughts on the CBS website cli... michel 11-23-11 182
       Quick rules of thumb for recap toni... rose1974 11-23-11 183
           RE: Quick rules of thumb for recap ... Outfrontgirl 11-23-11 184
           RE: Quick rules of thumb for recap ... PepeLePew13 11-23-11 186
       RE: Thoughts on the CBS website cli... Outfrontgirl 11-23-11 185
           RE: Thoughts on the CBS website cli... michel 11-23-11 187
               RE: Thoughts on the CBS website cli... SurvivorFan101 11-23-11 188
                   RE: Thoughts on the CBS website cli... michel 11-23-11 189
                   RE: Thoughts on the CBS website cli... Outfrontgirl 11-23-11 190
                       RE: Thoughts on the CBS website cli... michel 11-23-11 191
                           RE: Thoughts on the CBS website cli... stu45 11-24-11 192
                               RE: Thoughts on the CBS website cli... michel 11-24-11 193
                                   RE: Thoughts on the CBS website cli... stu45 11-25-11 194
                                       RE: Thoughts on the CBS website cli... Belle Book 11-25-11 195
                               RE: Thoughts on the CBS website cli... Outfrontgirl 11-25-11 196

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samboohoo 17075 desperate attention whore postings
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11-04-11, 12:28 PM (EST)
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1. "RE: The Players, The Game, The Editing - Survivor South Pacific (post-merge) II"
Forgive me. I have not been able to completely read and disect the first thread.

Especially in light of reading KOB's thread about the social aspect of the game, has there been discussion about Cochran winning. We have seen Cochran bullied by the Savaiis. We have Cochran wanting Jeff to call him Cochran because Jeff calls all the "cool kids" by their last name. We have Ozzy saying he wants a Savaii to win. Has there been any discussion about the editing of Cochran becoming the cool kid and winning?


Samboobree, brought to life by Arkie


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dabo 25344 desperate attention whore postings
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11-04-11, 01:19 PM (EST)
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2. "RE: The Players, The Game, The Editing - Survivor South Pacific (post-merge) II"
Yes. Cochran is now set to go deep in the game, if he can develop some confidence in himself and start working the game he still has a chance. If not a winner edit, he's certainly a pivotal factor in how the game plays out, which explains all the attention he has received.
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glennyfromtheblock 24 desperate attention whore postings
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11-05-11, 01:08 AM (EST)
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3. "RE: The Players, The Game, The Editing - Survivor South Pacific (post-merge) II"
Long, LONG time lurker (since the Fans vs Favourites days) and finally getting off my ##### and contributing. Have to say, find this thread consistently about 50 bazillions times more effective and astute compared to say the Edgic thread on Sucks, mostly because they always seem to be too hamstrung with their so called 'rules' instead of taking each season and story on it's own merits. Plus, can never shake the feeling that half of them seem spoiled to a certain degree..

Anyway! Based on the season thus far, I'd be absolutely shocked if anyone other than Cochran won at this point. It's literally become 'Survivor : John Cochran' now. Normally, I would lean towards this ruling him out, but after last seasons Boston Robapalooza, I'm starting to think the editors are now dumbing down the editing and misdirection a little. Personally, I don't mind too much if only they would give us at least one equally viable alternative (e.g. Heroes vs Villains with Sandra and Parvati - although Sandra always clearly had the more careful and attentive winners edit in that season, sadly). I guess though, for the casual viewer, someone like Dawn probably seems like a strong possibility, or even Benjamin.

But Cochran is literally getting so much care and balance in every single step of his edit I just don't see a way he doesn't win this. They are just taking so much time to explain and justify every single action as well as giving him a lot of credit for moves that weren't really his (i.e. the Elyse boot). I mean, he literally just did the exact. same. thing. as Candice a few seasons ago but, instead of basically getting crucified for it on screen, he's getting a lot of texture and explanation and justification for the move. This would never happen if the move doesn't pan out in his favour.

The only other person I really could see winning now as a dark horse candidate is Sophie. She's been very low key the last few episodes but, again, the editors have taken very precise care to show her thoughts in every single episode and keep her presence felt. They've always taken care to seperate her from a lot of the negativity that can be associated with her tribe. Would I love her to win? More than anything. Do I think she will scrape through? Unlikely, but it's so hard to tell with female winners that aren't named Parvati. The thing that makes me doubt most that she wins is that they've left some pretty key scenes as fodder for The Insider the last few weeks. She had an absolutely fascinating and astute confessional r/e Cochran and the likelihood of him flipping this week that I'd be shocked they wouldn't include if she won. Same as her reward confessional from last week. Shame.

Coach is getting a fantastic edit this season but I really, truly think that the OTT religious stuff a few weeks back alone rules him out. There is no way they'd make him look like a cult leader for an episode (with none of the associated positivity that Rob got last season) if he won. Sure, other seasons have had religious elements, but religion is not the story of this season. That was only shown to make him look like a bit of an unlikeable lunatic.

Every single Dawn scene is about Cochran. Her whole story is about supporting his. She barely has one without him. They're taking a lot of effort to make her likeable, but I doubt that's enough. The only forseeable way she is winning is if this season takes a turn towards being the tale of how a great player loses (eg - Samoa, Guatemala, Heroes vs Villains to an extent) and she's the one who, through no move of her own, reaps the rewards of a bitter jury. I doubt it though - I feel she's probably our final juror and her tale is of being the deciding vote for Cochran or something like that. Or even handing him a win at the Final 3?

Edna has had some interesting scenes but she literally disappears whenever she is not relevant to the story. Always a sure sign that someone doesn't win (again, like Parvati in Heroes vs Villains). Curious to see where her edit leads though as there is definitely something left in it...

Anyway, there is my two cents for now - can't wait to continue you reading everyone elses thoughts. Thank you so much for everyones contributions over the years (particularly Michel who is insanely insightful in my humble opinion) - it's been one of the highlights of my week each week watching y'all so expertly deconstruct each episode!

Adios,

Glenny

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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings
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11-05-11, 03:08 AM (EST)
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4. "RE: The Players, The Game, The Editing - Survivor South Pacific (post-merge) II"
Welcome, Glenny!

I like what you said about Sophie, Dawn, Edna, and Coach.
Keep in mind that Mark Burnett and Jeff do not know how to edit female winners.

I think Cochran is this season's Phillip aka THE CHARACTER.
Which is funny, because he has taken over Coach's niche of the guy who gets way more screen time than he deserves.

I don't think he wins, any more than Phillip had a shot at winning.
Dude is not getting the votes. The jury is full of cool and pretty people, at least the majority. So then, what is he ... most likely someone they see as a way to pump up the season. Survivor is no longer about how the winner wins, IMHO. It's all about fighting for ratings. If you follow what Jeff says, you know it's true that the hunt for ratings drives everything about it.

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dabo 25344 desperate attention whore postings
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11-05-11, 11:00 AM (EST)
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6. "RE: The Players, The Game, The Editing - Survivor South Pacific (post-merge) II"
LAST EDITED ON 11-05-11 AT 01:37 PM (EST)

Welcome, glenny! Always glad to see new posters delurk.

Cochran's edit doesn't scream winner at me, though I agree he has potential. What his edit screams is a great story, and that story is far from over.

Ozzy is still getting a good edit as a potential comeback kid, he is going to fight his way to the end or go down giving it his all.

Coach is getting a stellar potential winner edit, this is definitely his best season. Unlike previous seasons, where his stories were his eccentricities, this time he is in charge and the leader. Coach 3.0. But Coach 1.0 shows up from time to time, he still has his vulnerabilities.

Sophie and Albert are shown to be a team with Sophie as the main voice and Albert as the adjunct voice who shows up from time to time. Of the two Sophie would be the more likely winner in an emerging storyline.

Brandon was the early villain who then switched gears, or tried to, and lately has fallen into the background. He may yet conquer his demons, but his story in relation to the other players is not good, he is a force to be controlled, a loose cannon they have to keep an eye on. We should watch for a resurgence of a Brandon storyline, at the moment he is simply present and accounted for.

Edna has an inconsistant edit but is shown to be very likeable and smart, let's call this a holding pattern and keep an eye out for an emerging Edna storyline.

Dawn has been on an emotional rollercoaster, there may still be some story there. She tried to play the game but sees the reality of her situation clearly, her inner strength will see her through anything. Not a winner in Survivor, a winner in life.

Jim had a great game going and a very consistant edit, but now his game is blown, I don't see where he goes from here. Shame, I really like Jim.

Rick and Whitney have been way too far in the background, Survivor doesn't do emerging from (total) obscurity stories. Thanks for playing.

Keith didn't even get a confessional in the merge episode before he got voted out, 'nuff said.

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Belle Book 3556 desperate attention whore postings
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11-05-11, 12:07 PM (EST)
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7. "RE: The Players, The Game, The Editing - Survivor South Pacific (post-merge) II"
Here's who I see as being likely to win, from least to worst:

1. Whitney -- in the background too much, on the wrong side of the Pagaonging and unlikely to win challenges at Redemption Island. Thanks for playing.

2. Keith -- has a shot at winning challenges at Redemption Island, but otherwise is like Whitney and worse, will be up against Ozzy. Thanks for playing as well.

3. Rick -- also too far in the background. The only thing helping him is that he's on the right side of the Pagonging. Still, thanks for playing as well.

4. Jim -- more strategic than the others, but his game has been blown and might not be as strong as Keith, let alone Ozzy. He'll be on the jury.

5. Dawn -- has some story but she too is on the wrong side of the Pagonging. She's more likely to be a winner in life than on Survivor.

6. Cochran -- won't win, even if he somehow makes it to the Final 3. The other Savaii would rather die than vote for him, even Dawn.

7. Brandon -- too much of an emotional trainwreck to have any real chance of winning.

8. Albert -- he might make the Final 3, but if he's mainly an adjunct to Sophie that doesn't bode well for his winning.

9. Edna -- totally loyal to Coach but sadly, her story is too inconsistent. Still, at least she has a story.

10. Ozzy -- only chance he has of winning is if he wins all the RI challenges, comes back, and wins the last two Immunity Challenges. Otherwise, see you on the jury.

11. Coach -- has a potential winner's edit but still shows traces of the old Coach. However, he might betray too many people to have a real shot at winning.

12. Sophie -- very smart and the main voice in the pairing with Albert. If her story takes off soon, there's your winner.


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dabo 25344 desperate attention whore postings
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11-05-11, 01:26 PM (EST)
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9. "RE: The Players, The Game, The Editing - Survivor South Pacific (post-merge) II"
LAST EDITED ON 11-05-11 AT 01:26 PM (EST)

I probably should explain my take on Albert and Sophie. First, it does seem clear they have teamed up, and when one of them speaks he/she is speaking for both of them. They don't take turns, though. Sophie gets the confessional when the editors have a choice between the two, Albert gets it only when it has to be Albert. Albert was present at the duel between Christine and Stacey, it had to be Albert, and then he found the clue by himself before sharing it with Coach and Sophie. Later Brandon finds a clue and shares it with Albert and Coach, it had to be Albert. That's why I think Sophie is the alpha and Albert the adjunct. They both speak clearly and comprehensively, there is no television quotient reason why the editors should prefer one over the other.

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Belle Book 3556 desperate attention whore postings
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11-05-11, 02:53 PM (EST)
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10. "RE: The Players, The Game, The Editing - Survivor South Pacific (post-merge) II"
And that's why I would favor Sophie over Albert in terms of winning -- in the editing, if there is a duo and one of that duo is featured more prominently than the other (such as deciding which one would get the confessional if the editors have to decide between the two), then the adjunct is less likely to win -- it's the "alpha" person who is more likely, assuming that they get far enough to sniff the jury, that is.


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11. "RE: The Players, The Game, The Editing - Survivor South Pacific (post-merge) II"
no television quotient reason why the editors should prefer one over the other.

Really? I can see a huge television quotient that should have led the editors to prefer Albert to Sophie. The fact that they are not has to mean something.

The more I'm thinking about the erratic edits from the 4 people with the highest visibility this season (Coach, Brandon, John, Ozzy) the more I'm convinced it is a female winner. I realize 2 returning players are going to automatically get OTT visibility, but why so much of the other 2 at the expense of basically everyone else? Well, both of them have made several disparaging/dismissive remarks about female players with key quotes early on (episode 1 I'm sure for John; episode 1 or 2 for Brandon).

Brandon said "No chick is getting in between me, my family and a million dollars."
John said "I'm not going home before those girls."

In the Survivor sexist-lexicon for editing female winners, these 2 statements could be the key that it is a female winner this year in that both Brandon & John end up voting for/losing to a female. (And that's not even taking into account the fact that the figure in the opening credits with the caption "Sole Survivor" is clearly female OR Jeff's suspicious silence about this season -- for example, if Coach won, Jeff wouldn't shut up about how "awesome" this season is -- instead, we've basically heard bupkiss from him).

Thinking along these lines, I went back & looked up that poem that Semhar recited before her duel (it always struck me as odd that they showed all of that because we already had her reciting her poetry in episode 1) and one of the last lines was: "I'll never understand how men like you can cause so much damage, or even worse, how women like myself can stand it". Another clue that it's a female winner after the men destroy each other?

I don't even know if I'm just looking for it at this point because Coach (he's Coach, enough said)*, Brandon(no amount of redemption is going to make up for his behavior toward Mikayla), John (edit, as I've always said, is villain & has specifically denounced being a "hero"), and to a lesser extent Ozzy (he could overcome the beginning FvF lazy/arrogant Ozzy now that heroic Cook Islands Ozzy is on the upswing, but he'd have to win every IC and/or duel to do it) have so many negatives I can't imagine they will win, and really, given visibility, it can only be one of those 4 or a female.

Of the females, I agree Whitney is obviously out of the running.
Edna -- as you say, at least she has a story and she was Coach's "first friend" so if we start seeing recaps of that moment, her chances definitely increase.
Dawn -- we've seen the most development from her, but I keep having the nagging feeling that she is merely a "journey" player ala Holly, not the winner.
Sophie -- she has been almost a total narrator, but she did have that out of nowhere "speaking Russian with Coach" on episode 1 thing, plus she was separated from Coach's hypocritical religious mess episode 7. I suppose she's my "default" pick, mainly because it *has* to be the reason the editors are showing her when they could be showing Albert.

*I realize that Coach is getting an extremely positive edit, especially for Coach. And the episode 7 throwback to his Tocantins edit could have just been to "create doubt" about his win. However, regardless of how much they are hiding his laziness, arrogance & overall delusional storytelling "Coachness," I'm still not 100% convinced he can pull off a win. F3? Likely. Winner? No. Nonetheless, he's my alternate pick.

And before I get slammed for not totally dismissing Ozzy based purely on "personal bias" I'll add: there are aspects to Ozzy's edit that should be visible to any fair-minded viewer that could play out for Ozzy (I'm not talking about how they could also apply to others): the "loyalty" and "redemption" themes that have been pushed hard post-merge are most clearly connected to Ozzy; the fact that Coach's edit was "up" & Ozzy's down 1st half, with Coach's now going down & Ozzy's up re: the whole "It's not how you start, it's how you finish" key quote; Ozzy saying "even when it looks like you are losing, if you just stay calm you can win" (clearly connected to all Savaii, but spoken by Ozzy & actually practiced by Ozzy as we've seen him in perform in previous challenges); the whole Ozzy with rainbow "You never know what can happen in this game but I'll never stop fighting as long as I live" clip in the promo. Although I recognize it would be a hard road for him, and, like I say above, it could just be returning player OTT visibility put in because the editors don't know what to do with a female winner, I don't think there is a valid reason to entirely dismiss all of it either.

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12. "RE: The Players, The Game, The Editing - Survivor South Pacific (post-merge) II"
That's an interesting theory. I think Coach's incredibly disparaging remarks about Edna makes your theory is even stronger. That to me was the most misogynistic comment of the whole season.

I could definitely see Edna, Sophie or Dawn as the winner. We have seen enough of all of them for them to get more developed post merge and emerge as a winner. Makes me want to go back and look at episode one and be reminded of our first impressions of them.

Other than those three, Coach, Ozzy, and Cochran all have edits that could lead to winning. Cochran could be redeemed (though I doubt it), Ozzy could get the underdog edit, and Coach is clearly getting what could be a winner's edit. Jim is a maybe, but I highly doubt it. No way Brandon, Keith, Rick or Whitney wins. I agree that since we've been shown more of Sophie instead of Albert, he does not win.

If I had to list them from most likely to least likely:

1) Sophie or Dawn
3) Edna
4) Coach
5) Ozzy
6) Cochran

Of course, all of this could change in the next few episodes as we see who is getting the focus and who is getting ignored.

Great discussion!

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14. "RE: The Players, The Game, The Editing - Survivor South Pacific (post-merge) II"
LAST EDITED ON 11-05-11 AT 04:20 PM (EST)

If I had to list them from most likely to least likely:

1) Sophie or Dawn
3) Edna
4) Coach
5) Ozzy
6) Cochran

First, co-sign.

Second, re: Edna -- I agree with you, but left it out because Coach is a known sexist d-bag & didn't want to get lost on that aspect to the detriment of Brandon & John's remarks. However, since you bring it up: Coach's treatment of Edna -- from the way he talks about her (which she presumably didn't hear until, you know -- she saw the episodes -- but I doubt that if he says that stuff behind her back he's talking much better to her, because we all saw exactly how he spoke to Sierra on Tocantins) "She'll do as she's told;" "She'll wipe Ozzy's @ss if I tell her to;" "You can sleep between Edna & myself -- you can have Carte Blanche!" (to John episode 8 as if she's nothing but a pillow that Coach can decide to "share" with another male) to Coach literally pushing Edna to her knees after the episode 7 tribal IC -- has definitely been the most sexist behavior of all males toward a female this season IMO (yes, even Brandon's towards Mikayla). So, that does bode well for her as a pick under my "it's a female winner that the sexist Survivor editors don't know what to do with" theory.

eta: spell out bad words. LOL

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17. "RE: The Players, The Game, The Editing - Survivor South Pacific (post-merge) II"
My list from most likely to least likely:

1. Sophie
2. Edna
3. Coach
4. Ozzy
5. Cochran or Dawn


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11-05-11, 11:33 PM (EST)
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23. "RE: The Players, The Game, The Editing - Survivor South Pacific (post-merge) II"
I'm not going to get into a quibble about TVQs. What I would like to know is where does this

"I'm not going home before those girls."

come from?

The only thing I can find close to that is Cochran's "Achille's heel" confessional in which he was just crying over the fact that he had learned from Jim that alpha male Ozzy had decided he should be the first one voted out ahead of Papa Bear, Semhar or those girls (Ozzy in the edit had just previously had a conversation with Jim and others in which he had said "the three girls" were an asset).

However he worded it, I'll grant, was not the best way to word it, but it was just an emotional crushed young puppy moment because the alpha dog wanted to kick him to the curb, certainly not the declaration you are quoting.

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24. "RE: The Players, The Game, The Editing - Survivor South Pacific (post-merge) II"
I'll admit it may have been "I don't want to go home before those girls" but it was 100% with the emotional gist/dismissiveness toward "those girls" as I'm expressing it & hence accurate for all intents & purposes to my meaning.

I'm most certainly not open to be 'mansplained on how I'm "hearing" the intent/attitude behind his words toward women wrong.

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30. "RE: The Players, The Game, The Editing - Survivor South Pacific (post-merge) II"
LAST EDITED ON 11-07-11 AT 09:57 AM (EST)

I mainly was wondering if that's where that came from, two or more valid interpretations of the same material is (I think) one of the values of these thread.

Coach's Edna statement, for example, valid to consider it sexist (though I need no convincing of Coach's sleezy misogyny). Substitute another name, Rick, it remains a disgusting thing to say, and speaks to Coach's state of mind also but in a different context.

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8. "RE: The Players, The Game, The Editing - Survivor South Pacific (post-merge) II"
LAST EDITED ON 11-05-11 AT 01:45 PM (EST)

Hey Glenny, so glad to see you have delurked and decided to post here! New faces are always welcome here and especially new ideas...

There's a lot that I agree with in your post, other than that Cochran would win.

I just don't see how it is possible for Cochran to win at this point. If he sticks with Coach/Albert/Sophie, the bitter Savai'is won't give him a single vote other than Dawn and most of the other three Upolus would rather support one of these three over Cochran even if they didn't leave the game the way they wanted to.

If Cochran finds an outlier alliance - based on what we've seen so far, the outliers are Dawn, Cochran, Edna, Rick and we also saw Brandon offering to protect Cochran at the end of TC - then none of Coach, Albert, Sophie, Jim, Keith, Whitney or Ozzy would vote for Cochran.

I am in agreement with OFG that Cochran is getting the Phillip edit - the journey player who grabs most of the headlines but ultimately fails at the end. I believe Cochran will be used as a solid vote until around the F4 or F5 and then discarded when the numbers are in favour of the final alliance (which I see as being either Coach/Albert/Sophie or Dawn/Edna/Brandon or one of the survivors of the C/A/S alliance).

The editing suggests to me that the only players with "end game legs" or some kind of a story to tell are Coach, Sophie, Cochran, and Dawn. I would have put Albert in with the likes of Edna, Rick, Brandon and the rest of the Savai'is, as his story hasn't been featured much but he's been prominently tied in with Sophie and Coach throughout the past few episodes...so I'm going to move him in with Coach and Sophie - as long as these two are there, Albert will be there.

Coach is playing a great social game, the best I've seen from him in that regard in three seasons. He'll be a major player to the end, either as a potential winner or as a finalist. He's been a little too inconsistent with his edit for me to declare whether he could win, though.

Sophie is more subtle because not only do the producers not know how to edit female end-game players but also there are several Texas-sized personalities stealing the story away from her. You can see many subtle moments where Sophie is involved with the decisions and strategies going on in camp and we heard her thoughts on fitting in with the prayer circles and how she has to focus on the game. She's looking more and more like a serious threat to win it all - the story's been all about the alpha males going at it, and it's easy to see her sneaking through to win. For me, this season's best comparison is to Australia - many outsized personalities in Alicia, Jeff, Michael, Jerri, Colby and Keith grabbing most of the headlines while Tina subtlely navigated her way through, pulled a few strings and ultimately won it all in the end. I'll join you on the Sophie bandwagon, Glenny.

More below...


>Anyway! Based on the season thus far, I'd be absolutely shocked
>if anyone other than Cochran won at this point.
>It's literally become 'Survivor : John Cochran' now. Normally,
>I would lean towards this ruling him out, but after
>last seasons Boston Robapalooza, I'm starting to think the editors
>are now dumbing down the editing and misdirection a little.
> Personally, I don't mind too much if only they
>would give us at least one equally viable alternative (e.g.
>Heroes vs Villains with Sandra and Parvati - although Sandra
>always clearly had the more careful and attentive winners edit
>in that season, sadly). I guess though, for the
>casual viewer, someone like Dawn probably seems like a strong
>possibility, or even Benjamin.

>But Cochran is literally getting so much care and balance in
>every single step of his edit I just don't see
>a way he doesn't win this. They are just
>taking so much time to explain and justify every single
>action as well as giving him a lot of credit
>for moves that weren't really his (i.e. the Elyse boot).

"Survivor: Cochran" is a fitting theme to this season, but I think his story is at its highest point of the season now and it'll eventually fade. Phillip was at his outrageous best in the middle episodes but by about the F5, he kind of blended into the background as the Rob story took over. There's plenty of time for things to fade for Cochran, but he's deserving of all the attention at the moment and they had to show care plus all of the little things that happened to show why Cochran made the moves he did in the last couple of episodes -- now that the moves have been made and the game completely turned upside down, will they still continue to highlight Cochran above all else? If his story starts to ebb after the double TC this coming week, then we've got our answer.

I would submit that Coach, Sophie and Dawn are decent alternatives presented by the editors, although there's no way Dawn will win this season.


> I mean, he literally
>just did the exact. same.
>thing. as Candice a few
>seasons ago but, instead of
>basically getting crucified for it
>on screen, he's getting a
>lot of texture and explanation
>and justification for the move.
> This would never happen
>if the move doesn't pan
>out in his favour.

I think if he outlasts all of the Savai'is, that is plenty of justification to show the care given to Cochran in the editing - the nerd "won" over his tormenters.


>The only other person I really
>could see winning now as
>a dark horse candidate is
>Sophie. She's been very
>low key the last few
>episodes but, again, the editors
>have taken very precise care
>to show her thoughts in
>every single episode and keep
>her presence felt. They've
>always taken care to seperate
>her from a lot of
>the negativity that can be
>associated with her tribe.
>Would I love her to
>win? More than anything.
> Do I think she
>will scrape through? Unlikely,
>but it's so hard to
>tell with female winners that
>aren't named Parvati. The
>thing that makes me doubt
>most that she wins is
>that they've left some pretty
>key scenes as fodder for
>The Insider the last few
>weeks. She had an
>absolutely fascinating and astute confessional
>r/e Cochran and the likelihood
>of him flipping this week
>that I'd be shocked they
>wouldn't include if she won.
> Same as her reward
>confessional from last week.
>Shame.

I'm with you on the Sophie wins bandwagon; as I've posted elsewhere, I had Sophie as my winner after episode 1. I still think she could win with the editing we've been shown so far - now that the Brandon-Mikayla kerfuffle has been dealt with and the Savai'i mess just shown, the editing story over the next few episodes will turn to highlighting the eventual finalists and winner of this season.


>Coach is getting a fantastic edit
>this season but I really,
>truly think that the OTT
>religious stuff a few weeks
>back alone rules him out.
> There is no way
>they'd make him look like
>a cult leader for an
>episode (with none of the
>associated positivity that Rob got
>last season) if he won.
> Sure, other seasons have
>had religious elements, but religion
>is not the story of
>this season. That was
>only shown to make him
>look like a bit of
>an unlikeable lunatic.

I don't know if I would term it as becoming an "unlikeable lunatic" but he got a lot of positive editing out of the Cochran/Savai'i mess, so that really was a big boost for his candidacy to win this season. I do think there's been "just enough" moments to offer up some question about whether he would really win with what he's shown. Vecepia won even with her religious beliefs being highlighted at times (no, she never was shown as a lunatic-type in these moments, though).


>Every single Dawn scene is about
>Cochran. Her whole story
>is about supporting his.
>She barely has one without
>him. They're taking a
>lot of effort to make
>her likeable, but I doubt
>that's enough. The only
>forseeable way she is winning
>is if this season takes
>a turn towards being the
>tale of how a great
>player loses (eg - Samoa,
>Guatemala, Heroes vs Villains to
>an extent) and she's the
>one who, through no move
>of her own, reaps the
>rewards of a bitter jury.
> I doubt it though
>- I feel she's probably
>our final juror and her
>tale is of being the
>deciding vote for Cochran or
>something like that. Or
>even handing him a win
>at the Final 3?

I'd think that is a strong possibility she would be our final juror or maybe second-last. As far as Cochran goes, that'll be as far as Dawn goes - their story is intertwined.


>Edna has had some interesting scenes
>but she literally disappears whenever
>she is not relevant to
>the story. Always a
>sure sign that someone doesn't
>win (again, like Parvati in
>Heroes vs Villains). Curious
>to see where her edit
>leads though as there is
>definitely something left in it...

I see Edna as a potential vote swing in case Cochran/Dawn tries to pull some Upolus over into an winning alliance, but nothing more.


>Anyway, there is my two cents
>for now - can't wait
>to continue you reading everyone
>elses thoughts. Thank you
>so much for everyones contributions
>over the years (particularly Michel
>who is insanely insightful in
>my humble opinion) - it's
>been one of the highlights
>of my week each week
>watching y'all so expertly deconstruct
>each episode!
>
>Adios,
>
>Glenny

Thanks for chipping in, Glenny! I hope you'll stick around to share your thoughts after each episode.

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35. "RE: The Players, The Game, The Editing - Survivor South Pacific (post-merge) II"
Welcome to the boards glennyfromtheblock! Another lurker delurking is great news!

Thank you for the compliment. (Now I'm feeling the pressure to be insightful!

The problem with Sophie is that we don't know much about her. Her personal development is seriously lacking. Sure, we know she speaks Russian but what else? All her confessionals have been mostly narration. A narrator doesn't usually win, especially not a minor one. I'd feel let down if she wins because she would have been a very interesting character.

I'll even give a concrete example from this episode. After talking to Cochran, she does get her usual 15 second confessional: “You can never count on someone flipping over, you can never know for sure. That being said, I think I feel as confident about Cochran flipping over because Cochran thinks that if he switches and comes back to camp, he’s going to get beat up which is a legitimate thing … to be afraid of.”

That is very dry. The interviewer must have asked her what she thought of Cochran, how she felt about Coach turning him, how she saw things develop from there. What we get is a "In-the-Present" situational analysis with nothing to tie her to the end game. If this was the only example, it would mean nothing but all her confessionals are of the same nature.

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5. "I Don't Believe in Redemption!"
LAST EDITED ON 11-05-11 AT 03:16 AM (EST)

I'll bring this over from the monster thread as it was at the end and got no response.

I am a heretic. I don't believe the winner needs to be redeemed.

The show needs redemption.
The stupid twist concept needs redemption.
Thus Redemption is a theme and they will flog that pony in every fashion they can.

In the chicken and egg story of The Winner and Theme of the Season -- there is a first. The Winner wins, and the Theme comes after. No matter how much they wanted a Redemption story, they may not get one in the winner's arc. Maybe the winner just sailed through and never went to RI? Maybe the winner was not a returnee with some image to repair?

What to do?
Let's redeem Coach. Let's redeem Ozzy.
Let's take the Nerd boy and show his journey.
Let's have Dawn's break down in as a possible Holly like story, even though she didn't fill any shoes with sand and throw them in.
They would do this whether or not any of these four won this season.

The theme does not need to be the winner's story.

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13. "RE: I Don't Believe in Redemption!"
Oh, I think you're absolutely right, OFG. They want a redemption story, but if say Sophie wins (a very real possibility in my mind) there is no redemption angle to develop. I think the next couple of episodes will really clarify things - who's getting the focus? What stories emerge now that they've merged. Should be interesting!
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15. "Episode 8 - Editing thoughts:"
Thanks for the clean sheets, Dabo. It feels kind of weird but I think it was necessary.

I am sorry for starting a new curl but I have to be careful now that there are end game spoilers. I can't read all posts so I apologize for possibly repeating things other may have said.
Here is what I saw:

Previously on Survivor, on day 17 Upolu and Savai were dead even with 6 players each
Savaii lost the challenge and quickly put the blame on Cochran.
With the merge looming, Ozzy proposed a risky plan.

At Tribal Council, Ozzy also wanted Cochran to become a double agent..and he gave Cochran his immunity idol for safe-keeping.

In the end, Savaii went along with the plan.

Now, the questions are: “Can Ozzy win at Redemption Island, will there be a merge and can Cochran become a Master spy?”

I noted that the recap was still sympathetic to Savaii. Their decision was called risky but they weren’t portrayed as dumb players.

He’s leaving Home

Cochran: “What a difference a day makes… Ozzy came down from the Heavens today and came up with this miraculous plan…If everything connects in the way that we hope it will, this is going to go down as one of the single biggest and greatest moves in Survivor history.”

Keith was still blaming Cochran for not stepping up.

It is noteworthy that Keith wouldn’t get a single confessional in the episode where he was voted out. He’s only shown opposing Cochran, giving him a legitinate mobile to vote the way he would.

Cochran told them he would play any part they wanted him to play, even the villain.

Cochran’s confessional continued: “Another big part of the plan is I become sort of a double agent so we can figure out who the Upolu tribe intends to vote out from our tribe…I think that, if anyone in the game can pull off being a double agent, it’s me. I have already been pretending like I like these people in my tribe for the last 18 days. I think I deserve an academy award for that performance.”

His confessional ended with an Al Pacino imitation: “First you get the egomaniac returning player voted out, then you get his idol and get the million dollars.”

On Redemption Island, Ozzy woke Christine and told her his story.

Ozzy: “…I put on my actor suit…I think she bought it…This is part of the plan:
The first step was getting myself voted out.
Second step is getting her to believe that.
Third step is beating her and giving false information to the other tribe.
The move is either the stupidest thing I could have done or the craziest, ballsiest thing I could have possibly thought of doing.

It’s interesting that we didn’t see Ozzy getting any information on Upolu from Christine. Maybe he didn’t think of asking which would be incredibly dumb or the viewers are meant to think of him as being just that incredibly dumb.

Redemption Island – Day 19

At the duel arena, we saw both tribes assembling in the bleachers.
Coach looked surprised when he saw Ozzy walking in behind Christine but he had already seen who was missing on the other side.

Ozzy tried to sell his story but Albert looked over at Coach saying: “I don’t buy it.”
Undeterred, Ozzy went on with the charade, even pretending exasperation by choking up in anger.
He said he would come back into the game for revenge.
During the whole challenge, we saw most members of Upolu staring over at Savaii, judging their reactions, seeing through their act.

The intent was clear: What the previous episode and the recap hadn’t told us was that the move was bound to fail. Despite the dead fish and the over-the-top religious scenes, Upolu wasn’t going to be the Dumb Tribe. At least not at the merge.
I also think it was crucial to the story that the viewers realize that Ozzy himself blew it, that Cochran didn’t have a chance. The editors could have shown smiling Upolus as the challenge went on, making us think they were ready to eat up Cochran’s tale and then the blame would have been squarely on the failed double agent but that isn’t the story. His cover had been blown before he even went behind enemy lines.

Once it was over, we heard Jim saying: “Great run Christine.”

Ozzy after his victory: “I just made the craziest move that you could possibly make and now, I can only hope that Cochran can infiltrate Upolu and take the advantage, take the lead and take their victory.”

Merged Tribe – Day 19

The first focus of the merge was on Dawn as we saw her words on screen about not drinking and auctioning off her beer. Maybe it was only a cute character scene or maybe Dawn will make an nice deal later on.

Jim: in confessional after we heard some chit-chat: “Everybody does their niceties..immediately, it’s game on though. It’s six on six so everybody is looking for an in.”

With a couple of confessionals, I was thinking at this point that Jim would be Upolu’s target but since he wasn’t we have to wonder why he was given this airtime. It wasn’t to show he was a great strategist because he didn’t give us any indications about his read of Upolu. It was just narration.

Cochran told Coach that he felt reborn and Coach answered that the game was just beginning,

Cochran had a confessional: “As luck would have it, our plan worked perfectly…Now it’s time to work my magic like I knew I could all along, become the double agent I was meant to be, infiltrate Upolu and change the game.”

Alone with Coach, Cochran talked about how poorly he had been treated in Savaii, focusing on Keith: “He’s constantly ostracizing me for my performances in challenges.” He asked: “I am wondering if I am working with the right people right now.”

Coach’s response was very direct: “Our tribe isn’t budging and I feel like you guys are trying to play us. You guys came up with a story, you sent Ozzy to Redemption, you have an idol in your pocket and, knowing that Ozzy would win Redemption, it was a risk, but you knew Ozzy would win Redemption.”

Cochran folded like a house of cards, letting Coach increase the pressure: “We will not bend, we will vote 6 strong and, if all 6 Savaii tribe vote together, there is a one in 5 chance that you are going to be drawing a black rock and so will I. It’s a bullsh*t way to play the game. Whether or not these people have treated you like that…I know what those kind of people think about people with an intellect. I’ve been made fun of my whole life, dude. I might be the dragon-slayer now but I know what it feels like to be superior in one way to people and they know it so they find ways that you are inferior to cut you down. I know what it feels like, man but you have a chance to change the game for yourself. There’s a line in the sand; come across that line.”

Cochran: “All in all, what I took away from Coach is that he is an incredibly intelligent guy…He made it quite clear…I could draw rocks or…I could completely jump ship, betray my old tribe and join Upolu.”

Then with Sophie and Albert, we had more confirmation that it was Ozzy that blew the plan;
Sophie: “You should have picked a better actor. I want to know if he volunteered.”
Cochran then completely spilled the beans.
Sophie added: “The beans were pretty loose.”
The scene ended with Cochran saying that he didn’t want them (us?) to think he was disloyal, to look down on him.
Albert told him (and us) that it wasn’t being disloyal if he wasn’t inside their inner circle and he had been mistreated.

Cochran then started bonding with Brandon who asked who had given him the most trouble.
Cochran replied: “Jim has a big temper but Keith has been more consistently rude to me.”
Brandon promised protection.

Cochran: “There are many downsides to flipping but, on the other hand, I do believe that the Upolu members are super solid, <Why insert a shot of Edna right there? Especially one with her standing next to Brandon, Coach and Cochran> completely honest and trustworthy. I consider myself a strategist and maybe even a mastermind but not an evil mastermind. So, I returned the hidden immunity idol to Ozzy…Up to this stage of the game, I feel like I put my fate in the game in people that I don’t entirely trust and who don’t entirely respect me.<we know why they gave us a shot of Keith here> Now that the merge has come and it’s an individual game, I finally feel like I am in control of my fate, to make decisions about who I want to work with <shot of Coach> and who I want to betray<shot of Ozzy>. It’s a little bit surreal but also kind of a little bit exciting that I am the person that gets to decide how Survivor South Pacific takes shape and possibly end.”

I believe this scene told us exactly how Survivor South Paicfic will take shape to the end. We just have to look at the people that were shown in this montage: Keith; we know that he’s the first casualty. Ozzy, we know will get betrayed. That leaves Coach, Brandon, Edna and Cochran as our final four. With the additional shot of Coach inserted when Cochran made a jury like statement of deciding how the game ends, we have a clue that Coach could win. But we also saw Cochran standing tall, during that voice-over portion of his confessional. His expression there can only be described as a look of satisfaction:

Satisfaction that he was the King-maker? Or satisfaction about his own coronation?

Merge Tribe – Day 21

The editors didn’t show us anything about day 20. I’d say it’s because they’ve already given us a map to day 39!

Dawn after Cochran had told her about a possible revote and the looming rocks, had a confessional: “Cochran and I went to get tree mail this morning and I know that, for a good 20 days that Cochran and I have been out here, I have watched Cochran specifically not being treated as an equal in the group. As a Survivor fan when I watch the game, I really like it when I see people stand up for what they believe in, kind of at the expense of the million dollars. I feel like I should have stood up for Cochran sooner.” (Teering up, she continued) “He’s a really great kid, I have a son that reminds me of him with red hair. But you are trying to protect your interest all the way through, you want to stay. I try to remember that this is a game for a million dollars and this is a game with casualties but I don’t really want the casualty to be Cochran. For me, that’s a way to say I don’t like how it’s been going even if it means I’m losing my footing in the game.”

This confessional was heard over a melancholic melody on the piano. The same melody we heard when Shambo told Brett that Galu was dead. Here, I think we are meant to choke up at Dawn’s personal sacrifice for Cochran. With a few words, she truly became his “mom” and the audience’s conscience at the same time. Letting us listen to that confessional, the editors wanted us to be on Cochran’s side.

The Challenge

Jeff showed that there were two necklaces.
The tribe learned that they will have to be careful not to drop their coconuts.
They would have to balance on a small perch while holding the coconuts between two ropes.
At intervals, the players would add more rope to make it harder
There would be one immunity for the men and one for the women

Dawn and Ozzy won immunity.

Te Tuna Camp

The 6 Savaiis were happy to have reduced the number of rocks they would be picking. Ozzy and Jim wanted to make sure everyone was solid with the plan to draw rocks.

Jim: “As of right now, my impression is that both tribe believe it is going to be a dead-lock at the vote. Nobody likes the idea of picking rocks for a million dollars but 2 Savaii members have immunity. That’s great for us. If it comes down to a pick ‘em, there’s 10 picks and there’s going to be only 4 of us on the chopping block, six of them. I think they will vote for Whitney because, if it comes to rocks, Whitney becomes immune and they want to have some of the strongest players in there: Me and Keith and, in their minds, they can get rid of Whit later.”

Cochran: “Savaii may feel confident that we have a 3 out of 8 shot or whatever the numbers are but those numbers aren’t that reassuring to me. Even if it was 1 in 30 that a rock would send me home, I wouldn’t want to do it because that is not what this game is about. I love this game, I respect this game but I do not respect reducing my game to a game of chance in pulling a rock out of a bag.”

Cochran told Sophie that Savaii was voting for Rick and that Ozzy would give his idol to Whitney. He wished that Rick would play the idol because then he wouldn’t be seen as flipping. Sophie told him it wasn’t going to happen that way.

Sophie: “You can never count on someone flipping over, you can never know for sure. That being said, I think I feel as confident about Cochran flipping over because Cochran thinks that if he switches and comes back to camp, he’s going to get beat up which is a legitimate thing … to be afraid of.”

Showing us Jim and Keith beating up on a coconut at that moment showed us exactly what Cochran could expect!

Cochran brought his fears to Coach, saying: “They are going to tear me apart tonight.”
Coach was reassuring: “You are sleeping right between me and Edna.. Or you can sleep next to Sophie if you want. You have “carte blanche”.”

I think Coach just “spoiled” the Final 3 here!! Cochran in between Edna and himself? It does match with the hints above when Cochran gave us his end-game confessional.

Coach : “We don’t have any choice right now but to trust in Cochran because the odds are not in our favor. It looks grim, it looks dismal. So, I did everything that I could. I got Cochran on our side to play the rest of the game with us. I have convinced him that he would be valued and loved over here. I have convinced Cochran that he will be the man of the match, that the weak would finally become strong. That the nerd would rise up to the bully and give him a bully beat-down.”

Thanks Coach for telling us that Cochran will be the man of the match. Now, help me convince the other posters that Cochran will win!!

Dawn asked one more time what Cochran was going to do but she knew his intentions.
Dawn told us that she wasn’t ready to flip anymore.
I noted that, once again, one of Cochran’s key scene was preceded by a butterfly, the symbol par excellence of metamorphosis.

Cochran: “The fact that Dawn is now completely unwilling to flip her vote alongside me and alongside Upolu gives me some pause in debating whether or not I want to make the jump but it’s a tough choice. Do I go with a bunch of people that have been constantly rude to me for the past 21 days or do I ditch the rock scenario, jump tribe and possibly cost myself a million dollars because I am going to be causing so many people to be furious at me?”

Dawn, after giving Cochran some motherly advice, had a confessional: “Before the challenge, I spent some time praying, I know it soundes cliché, but I kind of backed off of my original feeling that I should flip with Cochran because I realize I have liked my tribe. It hasn’t been as Kumbaya I think as the other tribe but there are things about each of these people that I love and I have had great experiences with them and I don’t want to go back on that. I want to stay loyal to the tribe. I haven’t talked to the rest of the tribe about that because I can understand why he is waffling but I am praying that he doesn’t. I let him know that I am disappointed. I don’t think that it’s right to flip and I think that he is watching out for himself tonight, not thinking of everybody else and I let him know that I don’t want him to do it.”

This confessional asks us: Which role is Dawn playing at this time? Is she the audience or is she Cochran’s mom? If she is the audience then Cochran’s chances of winning have just disappeared. We aren’t meant to want him to flip. BUT, if she is still his mom then this is only a normal reaction: A mom doesn’t want to see their child leave the house even if she knows it is best for him. If that is the true intent then we are right in thinking he wins.

Tribal Council

Jeff asked Coach if it would be a six-six tie.
Coach said “most certainly”
Ozzy agreed and said that it was good they had both immunity necklaces.
Dawn said that big stakes are worth big risks
Jeff had another observation: The only way to avoid a tie was if somebody flipped. He turned to Edna and asked: “What would make a person flip.”
Edna said it depended on how well the person felt incorporated in the tribe.
Cochran said that he had never seen two tribes being so cohesive.
Jim said that it wouldn’t make sense for one of them to flip.
Albert talked about Ozzy’s big production had delivered at the dueling arena and was waiting to see if he had lied about the idol.
Sophie told Jeff that they were offended by his show.
Seeing that he was busted, Ozzy said he did have the idol and said he had done it for his tribe.

Jeff sent them to vote.
Returning with the urn, it was time to see if an idol would be played.
Ozzy stood up and said he was playing it for Whitney.
We saw Sophie smiling, realizing that Cochran had told them the truth.
As expected the vote went 6-6 between Rick and…Keith.

We had a revote and, just as expected, Cochran flipped, sending Keith to Redemption Island.
Immediately, he turned to Ozzy and Jim saying that he had swapped and would explain later.
Jim wasn’t in the mood for an explanation. “Coward” was all he could say.
Brandon came to Cochran’s defense: “Don’t talk to him like that. That’s what you get for talking to people like that in the first place.”

Jeff told them that this was the biggest move in the game by far.

The Story

Before this episode, we thought the winner had to come from Savaii. Upolu was too over the top, especially in their religious bonding. Usually, such an extravagant display prepares us to see someone’s fall but we know that the eidtors love Coach and that Burnett appreciates persons of faith. As Coach said, the game started when he met Cochran. I know he meant it started at the merge but he said it when he was sitting alone with Cochran. Upolu isn’t a dead fish (yet) so we will have to take a second look at their members.

Savaii, on the other hand, is dead. The somber piano melody that accompanied Dawn’s first confessional was meant for a funeral. There can only be one member of Savaii that can win and that’s Cochran. The story of this episode was told best by Ozzy in his confessional on Redemption island: “I can only hope that Cochran can infiltrate Upolu and take the advantage, take the lead and take their victory.” The first part has already been accomplished: Cochran did infiltrate Upolu! Of course, Ozzy meant that he hoped Cochran would bring the information and the lead back to Savaii but Cochran has infiltrated Upolu so well that they are now promising him protection. Before long, Ozzy, who wants a Savaii to win, may be hoping that Cochran can indeed take THEIR victory. I suspect that, on his second appearance on a jury, Ozzy won’t be so bitter. That, of course if Cochran makes it to the end. The episode gave us hints that the final 4 will be Edna, Coach, Brandon and Cochran.

The Characters

Keith: He is probably a nice person but his role was to be the Bully. Except Cochran didn’t turn out to be his victim. The nerd gave him a bully beat-down. We were certainly meant to dislike Keith and be happy with this result. His lack of airtime tells me he won’t last very long on Redemption Island.

Whitney: It seems that most of her words have to be censored. She doesn’t get a confessional but most of the time that we see her speaking, it’s some sort of expletive that needs to be bleeped. Whitney isn’t someone we should like either and it isn’t because she’ll be in the final 3 but because she will be voted out by Cochran’s actions. Another disrespectful player that got what she deserved, not a likable victim.

Jim: He did get some confessionals and, even if he has a temper, he hasn’t been as dislikable as the previous two. His confessionals however, were more narration and lost most of their strategic value. It wouldn’t surprise me if Jim turns out to be the person that keeps us interested in what happens on Redemption Island. He’s the one that acknowledged Christine’s winning streak so that was probably to prepare us for one of his own.

Ozzy: Now we see that Ozzy’s redemption arc was only for one week. Still a fan favorite, he will get a nice exit but the way his acting part was presented, how quickly we saw that Upolu wasn’t buying it, showed everyone that Ozzy isn’t a smart player. That impression was reinforced when we didn’t see him getting any information from Christine during their night alone together. He was infatuated with his big move, unable to see its pitfalls. Even his fans should understand that he’s getting what he deserves.

Dawn: She should get the fan favorite vote and the end of this. Her role is clearly established as Cochran’s mom on the island. She wants what is best for him, doesn’t want to see him as a casualty so she knows he had to leave the nest but, like any mother, she hated it when the time came.
Dawn is also the conscience of the audience, telling us that Cochran is a good kid, that he had reasons to flip.
As she said, she lost her own footing in the game but she stood up for what she believed.
Quite a nice edit.

Rick: I don’t know if the editors really wanted us to think that Rick was in danger of leaving but he received no confessionals in this episode either. He is a meaningless player so he should leave once the Upolu’s don’t need him anymore.

Edna: She was “designated” as being part of the end game by both Coach (you will be sleeping between me and Edna) and by Cochran as we saw her when he talked about flipping to the more trustworthy Upolus. Interestingly, she had been Upolu’s Cochran; the sometimes socially inept, challenge deficient outsider but that part of her story never came up in this pivotal episode. Jeff even turned to her, tending her a perch to realize she could have flipped but her answer led us to believe she wouldn’t, that she feels incorporated in her tribe.

Albert: His role was also to talk directly to the audience, telling us what we should think of the situation. He was the one that we heard saying Upolu didn’t buy Ozzy’s act and he’s the one that told us we shouldn’t see Cochran as a disloyal player, that his motives were justified. As such, Albert still doesn’t have a story for himself, serving that of others.

Sophie: Much like Albert, she served to let us know just how dumb, how poor an actor, Ozzy was. Her interventions show that she is an intelligent person and would be a force to be reckoned with but it seems that Cochran will not choose her! Was there an ulterior motive in showing the weird scene where Coach “offered” both Edna and Sophie to Cochran? Sophie wasn’t shown when Cochran talked about shaping the end game, she doesn’t talk about her end game so it would come to reason that Sophie isn’t part of the end game.

Brandon: From the bully in the first few episodes, Brandon is now the one protecting Cochran against bullies! In our reality, that makes him quite a hypocrite but, in Survivor editing, that means he is being redeemed. His next blow-apart will probably come when he realizes that some Upolus are considering turning on the flipper and that will probably end with him getting his way again. Cochran will probably stay close to him all the way to the finale!

Coach: Once more, I have been fooled by Coach’s edit. I thought that his tribe would fall at the merge because of his portrayal lately. I have to remind myself that Coach is considered gold by Jeff and the team of editors so, yes, Coach could be our winner. He has the best character development on Upolu and he has the strategy discussions. That could earn him the title of Sole Survivor. We have also been told that he is a very intelligent person. (The editors even took a direct jab at us because we were told that when we mock him, we are cutting him down because we know he is really superior!!!) Cochran’s “shape of things to come” confessional could be interpreted as meaning that Cochran will play King-maker for Coach but I have serious reservations. Mostly because we have seen that Coach’s honesty and integrity have holes. It should only get worse if he continues to decide who will stay and who will go. If his next victims feel like Christine, Stacey and Mikayla, he should have trouble getting the votes in the end.

Cochran: I will certainly get heat for sticking with Cochran. Some may even know that he will be voted out soon if not next but the story still tells me that Cochran will be our winner. It may not make game sense but the editing is there.
Dawn’s confessionals were key. She is his mom and she told us he was right to want to flip, that she had to stand up for him. We also have to keep in mind that one of the first thing Cochran told us that he had to do was stop listening to his mom. So, when Dawn, like most moms, didn’t want to see him leave the nest/tribe, we knew Cochran shouldn’t listen. He had to use the machette and cut the (umbilical) cord.
As Coach said, he will be the man of the match. Ozzy told him he could win, they all agreed. I have to also!



I wrote this week's summary up in Bashers. I hope you enjoy it:

http://community.realitytvworld.com/boards/DCForumID1/4180.shtml

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PepeLePew13 24731 desperate attention whore postings
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11-05-11, 06:59 PM (EST)
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16. "RE: Episode 8 - Editing thoughts:"
Interesting thoughts, michel... my only question would be, who's gonna vote for Cochran? I don't see a single Savai'i voting for Cochran (other than Dawn) even if he was the only Savai'i in the final three.

At this point in time, I see almost all of the Upolus voting for another Upolu in the final three, I don't sense any of them being bitter enough to go against their finalists, with the exception of perhaps Brandon -- Coach is loyal, Rick and Edna don't strike me as bitter types, Albert and Sophie seem like intelligent sorts who will respect and reward good gameplay (and Cochran hasn't shown that for the most part).

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11-05-11, 07:38 PM (EST)
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19. "RE: Episode 8 - Editing thoughts:"
If the story is about how Cochran won, the edit will take care of the votes. But, even at this point we know that Cochran has Dawn's vote. We also know that Ozzy wants a Savaii to win. That could be good enough to put the "score" at 2-0-0 right now. Not a bad start!

If Coach brings Cochran to the end to be his goat, I do believe that a tribe that has been claiming loyalty and honesty will make him pay. Has anyone mentioned how well Coach has been playing? No. The same could be said of all Upolus. Worse, we have heard reasons why people wouldn't vote for Brandon and Edna.

If someone like Edna, Albert or Sophie won, I feel we would have been robbed of their story. I consider that, in comparison to all three, Vecepia and Danni were huge characters at this point.

PS. Christy voted for Jenna!

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11-05-11, 08:34 PM (EST)
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21. "RE: Episode 8 - Editing thoughts:"
LAST EDITED ON 11-05-11 AT 08:35 PM (EST)

Yeah, Ozzy wants a Savaii to win, but he too is all about honor and loyalty. Would he want a Savaii who had been so disloyal to win? I don't think so! I think he'd rather have Dawn, Jim, Keith, Whitney or of course himself to win, not Cochran!


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11-05-11, 08:15 PM (EST)
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20. "RE: Episode 8 - Editing thoughts:"
Even though obviously counting potential votes affects who can be viewed as a likely winner, it's too early to conclusively say anyone left couldn't win due to votes - there i so much game left to be played. Heck, so many seasons have been decided because of who is taken to the Final 2 or 3 - Cochran could easily get a majority of votes depending on (a) who he takes with him and (b) how he/they get there. Sure, it may not seem likely at this point, but isn't creating doubt about a persons chance one of the most important parts of editing? Eliza voted for Parvati, Jerri for Tina, etc etc. Dawn and Ozzy's votes are basically already telegraphed for Cochran if he makes it and they don't. He could easily get any or all of the Upolo votes. Even Jim would easily vote for him if he deserves it ala Jean-Robert and Todd. As I said before, I will be absolutely shocked, no, blindsided if anyone other than Cochran wins.
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11-05-11, 07:24 PM (EST)
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18. "RE: Episode 8 - Editing thoughts:"
I understand your reluctance to give up your idea that Cochran will win and I wouldn't mind seeing Cochran win since I think that most of Savaii was guilty either of making him feel real alienated in the first place or at least of minimizing the damage of his flipping.

But Cochran would need five people to vote for him to win if he ever faced the jury. And four of the Savaii -- Jim, Keith, Ozzy and Whitney -- seem unlikely to me to vote for Cochran. Dawn might, but that's it. As for the former members of Upolu, I think it's more likely they'll vote for one of their own than Cochran, even if the other two betray all the other Upolu members by taking Cochran to the finals.

In short, while I think it's possible that Cochran might win, I just don't think it's real likely.


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11-05-11, 08:54 PM (EST)
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22. "RE: Episode 8 - Editing thoughts:"
I agree with your overall argument, Belle, but we can't always assume that one of the F3 will be a dud. Someone can win with 4 votes, if there is a 3-2 split on the others. It is not very likely, but it could happen.

I don't think Cochran gets four votes either. I don't think more than ONE person MIGHT vote for him. Even Phillip got one vote.

Not one player respects Cochran's game play. It is all Probst and CBS calling him a mastermind. He is a mastermind like Phillip is Special Forces.

Now, IF Cochran could somehow put Savai'i back in the driver's seat, single-handedly pulling off a coup, he MIGHT get Rob C type respect by the end. But there is really no more doubt that 2 S's go home this week than there was last season that 2 Zaps would go. That leaves 2 Savai'i and the turncoat against six Upolu.

Upolu is not dysfunctional like Galu, which was cocky about it's 8-4 majority. Upolu is dysfunctional more like Casaya. And unlike Timbira, another tribe that squandered being up at the merge, we have no real development of feuds between the remaining Upolu. No Tyson upsetting Erinn, no Brendan worrying Coach, and there is no member of Savai'i whom Coach wants to annoint as the next Saint JT.

If you take a look at out story to date on Upolu:

Brandon vs. Mikayla was a pre-merge story that was well resolved.
Stacey and Mikayla can't stand Edna was a pre-merge story.
Christine worries everyone, another pre-merge story.

So really, what have the editors given us with respect to why Upolu turns on itself? We have maybe storylines:

1) Coach-Albert-Sophie hid the idol from Brandon-Edna-Rick. However, they fixed that, and it is unlikely to be confessed.

2) Coach protected Edna over Mikayla, which caused him to go against Albert and Sophie (but when they found the idol together, that was bonding). If Coach is seen to protect Edna, that could cause Sophie and Albert to worry he is herding her to the end. They could also worry that Brandon is a kept goat.

However, Coach himself is a goat, so most likely these two would work to eliminate Edna or Brandon rather than Coach.

3) Brandon is playing that the six go to the end as LOYAL. Any attempt to cut an Upolu before a Savai'i without immunity is going to wig Brandon out.

So these are the storylines we've been given. In strict game sense, Upolu who might team up with Savai'i are the two possibly at bottom of alliance:

Edna and Rick may sense they are on the fringes. However, the only game we've heard from either is about staying loyal. Ditto with Brandon.

More likely, the Upolu will go to F7 before they fracture. They could fracture at F9, but why would 2 Upolu team up with 3 Savai'i? (Counting Cochran as an S still.)

While Cochran could be dragged to the end as a GOAT RAT, there would then be FOUR disgruntled Upolu not in the F3. While that MIGHT get Cochran some votes from those who feel betrayed, I don't think the Upolu are stupid enough to play it out that way. Cochran won't go on an immunity streak to the end. I just don't see him getting there.

Editing is great stuff, but it's the same problem as with Erinn in Tocantins. She was never going to win the jury in that game. She was at best second place. So she could not be getting the winner's edit.

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11-06-11, 02:02 AM (EST)
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25. "RE: Episode 8 - Editing thoughts:"
Disclaimer -- I'm not a person who thinks the fact that a person isn't coddled equates to them being "bullied." Unfortunately, "bullying" has become a buzzword that has lost all meaning today, especially among the self-esteem generation (to which John certainly belongs) to the extent that the mere fact that they get treated not as nicely as they perhaps should have been means they were "bullied."

The whole problem with John as underdog/victim of bullies who becomes the "man" theme (besides the fact that Coach wouldn't know what a "man" was if one actually slapped him across the face) is basically: we never saw any "bullying" (and no, Keith saying he should have stepped up & gone to RI isn't "bullying" -- Dawn told him the same thing the episode before). We only have his after-the-fact word on it (and why wouldn't we see that? Because we certainly saw Brandon reduce Mikayla to tears & we saw Coach literally pushing Enda to her knees). And we know John's "word" is no good.

What we have seen is John complaining about all the stuff he couldn't do, failing miserably at challenges (and single-handedly losing one) and being considered as a boot candidate -- mainly by Ozzy -- and not for personal reasons -- we didn't hear Ozzy refer to John as a "little b!tch" for example -- but because he was a liability in challenges. And yet, both times it could have *actually* been John (prior to Ozzy volunteering to go to RI) there was Jim to rush in and throw a roadblock at Ozzy -- Ozzy wanted John out instead of Semhar? Better get rid of Semhar to make sure Ozzy can't join up with her post-merge & make sure John knows Ozzy wanted him out so John will not try to align with him either. Ozzy getting close to Elyse? Better get rid of Elyse to make sure Ozzy doesn't have any allies post-merge.

The fact is despite all the "Cochran Apologia": the person who has actually never really been a "part" of Savaii was Ozzy -- the entire pre-merge strategy of Savaii has been to ensure Ozzy didn't have anyone on the tribe who was an ally. Sure, they wanted him around pre-merge to help with challenges, but Ozzy was always getting voted out ASAP post-merge (i.e., first time he doesn't win IC), regardless of John's flip (although once Savaii was up numbers) and by John & the rest of Savaii. The only reason Jim & Keith were against Ozzy going to RI was because they were afraid the merge wasn't going to come as they expected & they wanted Ozzy for the tribe IC. They would have been fine if Ozzy had lost that duel & Christine come in once they knew merge was happening. John's "flip" isn't a betrayal of Ozzy (as he'd like you to believe), it is a betrayal of Jim & the rest of Savaii who voted off Semhar & Elyse instead of him. As I said, it has been quite clear all season that Ozzy was going anyway post-merge the first IC he lost. Even Dawn, who can stand there & sympathize with & coddle John, doesn't have much good to say about the guy who talked her down from the ledge Day 1 -- because even though Dawn said "We're going to welcome whoever it is" she knew for a fact that Ozzy was a "temporary player" for Savaii, she just didn't say it, like Christine did. Heck, Ozzy was getting slammed by Savaii for burning up energy bringing FISH to them to eat.

Furthermore, the fact that people as unreliable as Coach & Brandon, people who are actual bullies -- and this isn't from what people say, this is from what I've seen with my own lying eyes -- are backing up John only serves to discredit his version of events. If John can stand there & tell me that Coach is "smart" and yeah, he talks about slaying dragons, etc but he's just misunderstood, I don't take that as much of a recommendation of his powers of judgment or deductive reasoning. The editors can work all the magic they want on Coach, but it doesn't erase Tocantins and they can't be foolishness enough to expect people to forget it either just because Coach is being shown relatively positively for Coach.

Coach & John are 2 peas in a pod dividing up the women like pillows -- insecurity ridden legends in their own minds who cut down others to bolster their fragile egos. The two of them "liking" each other so quickly isn't a recommendation for either for their chances in the game or IRL. Survivor editors already had their fun with the Dragon Slayer "character" -- Coach can just serve as the goat this season while they spend their time creating the Nerd King "character" for John.

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11-06-11, 09:43 AM (EST)
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26. "RE: Episode 8 - Editing thoughts:"
"Disclaimer -- I'm not a person who thinks the fact that a person isn't coddled equates to them being "bullied." Unfortunately, "bullying" has become a buzzword that has lost all meaning today, especially among the self-esteem generation (to which John certainly belongs) to the extent that the mere fact that they get treated not as nicely as they perhaps should have been means they were "bullied.""

Thanks for the disclaimer. That helps me understand your point of view and why you're not seeing the bullying that happened to Cochran. As I completely disagree that bullying has become a buzzword and the characterization of an entire generation of people in that way, I can safely ignore your posts on this topic and realize I'm not missing anything.

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29. "RE: Episode 8 - Editing thoughts:"
I'm with you. I also particularly like the use of a new word, "'mansplained". It's hard to take comments into consideration when there's such a bias behind the words being typed.
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31. "RE: Episode 8 - Editing thoughts:"
Bwahahahahahaha -- hit a nerve there, huh? Well of course you see it as biased.

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33. "RE: Episode 8 - Editing thoughts:"
When 90% of your posts (at least) are on the very same subject, it's easy to take it as a bias.
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32. "RE: Episode 8 - Editing thoughts:"
Good to know. And since you, by definition as I've laid out, equate "bullying" to "not being coddled" then it will be even easier for me to dismiss you.
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37. "RE: Episode 8 - Editing thoughts:"
Obviously, you know that I reject that definition and I reject your characterization of what happened to Cochran. But you see things however makes you feel superior. It's clear to me that you need that feeling.
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39. "RE: Episode 8 - Editing thoughts:"
LAST EDITED ON 11-06-11 AT 05:30 PM (EST)

In two words: NO COMMENT!

Okay, maybe a little more: saying that Cochran was bullied might be overstating the case a bit. But I certainly think that Cochran was unwelcome by most of those on his tribe and that even if they tried to be nice to him, they couldn't conceal the fact that he wasn't welcome.


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49. "RE: Episode 8 - Editing thoughts:"
LAST EDITED ON 11-07-11 AT 07:20 PM (EST)

This is how I read things in terms of Cochran this episode:

Cochran didn't truly feel he was being bullied at Savaii, at least not at first. He said he doesn't really like his tribemates, even was somewhat disparaging toward them in confessionals. But he had never seemed overly upset or hurt if they got on his case about something. He had even encouraged them to vent on him after they lost the blindfold challenge.

From his confessionals he was looking forward to playing the double agent role with Upolu, and he was in that mode when he started telling Coach how Keith ostracized him for poor performance so he didn't know if he should stick with Savaii.

But when Coach immediately shut him down, Cochran had no idea what to do. There was nothing he could say. Then Coach "empathized" with him, saying he knew what it was like to be made fun of and generally wowing Cochran with his "ability" to see how things were. Brandon piled it on, saying he would "protect" Cochran from the ones who treated him the worst if he came with them.

It was all too much for Cochran, who proceeded to show how impressionable he really is (in comedic contrast to his prior confidence in being perfect to play the double agent role). Between realizing that he wasn't going to get any info from Upolu and Upolu telling him that he was being treated meanly, he started rationalizing that Coach and Brandon were right about Savaii's "bullying" of him, and that flipping might really be the better option for him.

Which is what he needed to convince himself of, because he hated the idea of drawing rocks.

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11-07-11, 09:18 AM (EST)
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43. "RE: Episode 8 - Editing thoughts:"
Hello everyone. I am very sad that there is so much that is polarizing this season. Clearly, the characters this season evoke alot of feeling, either you love them or you hate them. But, it has gotten to the point where I feel we are "bullying" each other. It is very ugly, and makes me seriously want to leave these boards. I never thought I'd feel that way as I so enjoy dissecting the game each week. I felt that KO's thread was very polarizing. Not KO, just her post. So much so that I found it incredulous. Trying to examine the downfall of Savaii by crucifying it's members, but it "seemed" to me that all of the evidence or most all of the evidence she provided was supposition. It was a moot point, we don't know what was done and possibly edited out. Therefore, this is why I am posting this retort in this thread.

I am not calling anyone out. I love everyone at these boards. But, people are all entitled to their opinions. Can't we leave that alone.

While I defended Ozzy's position in the game, his actions, I am not all over him like you, should I say some?, suppose that I am. I really enjoyed and respected his game play in Cook Islands. Since then I do think he's become a bit too "Bob Marley" for my personal tastes. But, never the less, I see a character this season that is indeed "playing to win". I respect that, regardless of what a bad actor he is. He's playing to win. He did make alot of mistakes in this season already, we know this, he's been lazy, and arrogant, but he has not bullied anyone that I can see. You guys, and the audience, and me...we can make up their own minds. Why do we need to argue over our own reactions to the editing? For me, I see it as Kiki does. Appealing to the tribe to get rid of the weakest perceived member is playing the game. He's not picked on Cochran, he's not called him names, he's not withheld anything from him and he's not ignored him. Quite the contrary. I see it as Kiki, in that the tribe has never embraced Ozzy. I am NOT saying that that is right or wrong on anyone's part. But, the editing has made me sympathetic toward Ozzy.

For me, I see Cochran as inept in reality, but he appears to believe that he's more of a game player than what I see. In the first episode his arguing was over the top, when the tribe had already decided. A little too desperate, imo, but I suppose I can't fault him for that. But, I did think to myself that he's not going to make a very good lawyer if this is an example of his argument.

I saw him gravitating to Dawn and Papa Bear, I didn't really see him trying to make inroads with others either. Not that the "cool kids" did either. He didn't even want to go in the water with them all the first day....his insecurities separate him...but is that everyone else's fault?

He was quick to alienate Ozzy when Ozzy reacted poorly to Elyse's blindside. I can't blame him for that. If I was low man on the totem pole I would note that as well. But, throwing the whole tribe under the bus to save yourself, imo, is not an "honorable way to play". I didn't even think that Keith "bullied" him when he noted that he thought the best course of action was to take responsibility for your own actions...I thought it was speaking his mind. Too bad if Cochran thinks it is. That's immature and selfish, imo. It notes poor character, imo. I couldn't respect the individual that would do that, so early at the merge when there were other options. No doubt there was risk. I found it cowardly. Perhaps I look at him as a mom would, and I don't like what I see. To deceive an adversary in the game is strategic, imo, but to deceive your entire tribe was self serving and cowardly. It crosses a line, "for me".

I don't understand why people can not accept anger and the expression of anger. Being dishonest, going back on your word makes others angry. It's ok to express anger. It's healthy. Perhaps it could even begin to lead to resolution. Ozzy had a right to feel betrayed and angry at his tribe when he was blindsided with the Elyse boot. The Savaii tribe has a right to feel angry as well. I don't consider voicing anger as bullying when the anger is a natural reaction to betrayal.

So, I accept that alot of folks seem to have great feelings for Ozzy and Cochran. Good or bad. I also think that the editing of the show is trying to soften the character that is Cochran. Which gives me pause. I don't see it. But, nevertheless, it is what it is! Cochran appeared to play into the "they are bullying me" thinking of Coach. But, this could have been used as a ploy to make the Upolu's think that he was turning to them. Same can be said with his "gossiping" about the Savaii's to the Upolu's. Talking about Ozzy to them, noting that "it came to him in a dream". I can give him the benefit of the doubt regarding those events.

Anyway, I most admire the giving it everything you've got in challenges, and folks that play with their teams, not against them. Like Boston Rob did, like Chris did, like Yul did. Sure we can argue all we want, but the editing evokes things in me and it's my opinion. I'm entitled to it, as others are to theirs. But, I can't take all of the harsh feelings that others seem to be pointing towards each other. Can we please try and relax a little here.

This is a game. No matter who wins, they deserve it. If they can get to the end and get the jury votes, than they certainly deserve it. Cochran is edited to be a big character this season, no doubt about it. He evokes disgust from me at this point. His edit would have to explain a lot to me in the future for me to come around, perhaps it will.

Regarding Ozzy, I still see that the editors like him. I do see him headed for a fall to RI soon, but with the confessional "I will never stop trying as long as I live", marked with the rainbow. I see Ozzy winning at RI, as long as he is there, perhaps. I still see him with a shot at winning the game. He is the hero, in editing terms, not mine, where Cochran is the "anti-hero". I still am inclined to think that someone from Savaii will win this game.

I see Coach's arc as heading downward. With the return of Tocantins Chi-Coach, which was Coach 1.0. Sophie and Albert are an enigma to me. I am stuck on Albert going to RI, as in the first episode when Jiffy talked about RI, they zoomed in on Albert, imo. I can't help but to wonder about that. I will try and go back and watch ep one and post the vidcaps to underline my thoughts.

I see Dawn as a mom too. I don't think she is the winner. Thanks everyone for all of your thoughts. I hope it was appropriate to post these thoughts here. I don't want to argue with anyone. I respect your opinions and I love to hear why you think as you do.


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11-07-11, 08:05 PM (EST)
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51. "RE: Episode 8 - Editing thoughts:"
I want to join in this discussion. I couln't venture in KO's thread, don't know what was said so I am starting with this post because I do respect you a lot FP:


"Appealing to the tribe to get rid of the weakest perceived member is playing the game."

True but there are still posters that HATE Aras for pointing the finger at Melinda and Cirie in episode 2 of EI. And Dreamz didn't get any fans when he pointed the finger at Lisi and Cassandra. The fact was, at that point, we had heard Keith saying that Cochran would be good in puzzles while Semhar, Mark and Elyse didn't look any stronger than Cochran. Ozzy's finger pointing looked like he had personal reasons, not strictly playing the game. And we know how Ozzy can be when he makes it personal; ask Billy.

"throwing the whole tribe under the bus to save yourself, imo, is not an "honorable way to play"."

Yet Jeff called it the biggest move of the game. Cesternino did it to an alliance of 4. Rafe, bit by bit, did it to the whole Axis of Evil. Cochran did it to an alliance of 6. Is it that much different?


"I didn't even think that Keith "bullied" him"

Cochran didn't either. "Bully" was Coach's word. Cochran only said they had been rude to him. AND Dawn confirmed that he was never treated as an equal.

"folks that play with their teams, not against them. Like Boston Rob did, like Chris did, like Yul did"

I don't see it that way at all. Boston Rob was using his team for his own benefit. We saw how cut-throat he can be. Ask Hunter, Lex, Matt...
Chris played an individual game the minute he hit the beach. He took out all the strong guys in his team and told Sarge who should be voted out.
Yul, the great diplomat, caused Candice's mutiny when he told her that Jonathan should be voted out before Sundra. Yul also had Ozzy tagged for an early exit until the mutiny threw them together. It's always an individual game.


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11-07-11, 09:01 PM (EST)
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52. "RE: Episode 8 - Editing thoughts:"
All good points, michel. The point about Boston Rob was that he needed his core group. Cochran threw his core group away for a different one.

Ozzy targeted Billy because he was the weakest link and his game plan was to win by keeping the tribe strong for challenges.

Yul was strategic and likable. Cochran I find not so strategic and unlikable.

Just the editing for me. I really respect you as well, michel! You are amazing with this editing stuff. You make great points, you are far more often right, than wrong, that's for sure! It really just comes down to what reactions we have to them as they are edited.

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11-06-11, 09:57 AM (EST)
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27. "RE: Episode 8 - Editing thoughts:"
I am usually just a lurker, but I love reading this thread. I understand why Michel sees Cochran as the winner, and he very well could be. I also think we still need to consider Dawn. As mentioned earlier the editors don't quite know what to do with female winners. One of the things they have done in the past several times is connect the female winner directly with the star of the show. (Natalie White won the "Russel Show." Amber won the "Rob Show." To a lesser extent Tina won the "Colby Show.") This is the "Cochran Show". Who has been Cochran's closest ally since the beginning? Dawn. Yes her whole story is connected with Cochran, but the same could be said of Natalie and Amber. Plus Dawn make a great redemptive story. The scene of her break down in Episode 1 with Ozzy telling her to dig deep to find her inner strength sets her up. This could all be wishful thinking on my part as well because I also just don't like Cochran.
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11-06-11, 10:21 AM (EST)
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28. "RE: Episode 8 - Editing thoughts:"
I like that theory, blueeyed.

I would be surprised if Cochran won this season, but I still think it's possible. But Dawn is a definite possibility in my mind, too.

Welcome to the thread and I hope you post more!

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11-06-11, 01:04 PM (EST)
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34. "RE: Episode 8 - Editing thoughts:"
Welcome to the board, blueeyed!

The problem with Dawn, from a game analysis POV, is that she is too likable. Take Holly: Even with her alliance in power, she got the boot at F4. Dawn could make F3 with an immunity win at F4 but she would need her alliance to bring her to that F4. Now, with Coach in power, why keep her when she has shown she is strong? He'd be smart to vote her out before Whit.

From an editing POV, she told us that she lost her footing in the game by protecting Cochran. She is headed for the Fan favorite vote, not the Sole survivor.

If Cochran doesn't win, the smart money would have to go to Sophie even if she lacks a story, personal development and end game hooks.



Thanks Agman!

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11-06-11, 01:25 PM (EST)
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36. "RE: Episode 8 - Editing thoughts:"
I agree that taking Dawn far from a game POV is not a smart move. I think she will stay longer than Whit just to appease Cochran. Then there is Redemption Island. She has shown us she is strong in challenges. The challenges there so often aren't about physical strength. Maybe she makes it back at F5. Granted she would have to then win two IC, but depending on her competition maybe she could do it. I do agree that Sophie is another contender. It is disappointing to me as a viewer if she wins though. Not because I don't like her, but because I will feel robbed of seeing her story. Ozzy telling Dawn in Episode 1 that she would be around as long as she keeps her head in the game keeps coming back to me. Though it is troubling that she told us she might have lost her footing.
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11-06-11, 10:14 PM (EST)
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41. "RE: Episode 8 - Editing thoughts:"
Sometimes it is amazing how we all watch the same episodes, but come up with different thoughts. We have to remember that the story has several layers. First of all, what happened on the island really happened and there is no debate about that (of course we can question what outside influences there were!).

As the story was edited and condensed, we were shown the story through the filter of editing. We, of course, spend hours wondering why they showed this or that and why they didn't show this or that. We know sometimes they try to mislead us, because they have changed the story during recaps.

The tricky thing is that this story, which has already been filtered, is filtered again by the perception of the viewer. Each of us has different life experiences, and what seems bullying to some isn't to others. What seems weak to some seems sensitive to others. Just as the story of The Wizard of Oz is from a different point of view from Wicked. It doesn't mean we are wrong, just that we see things differently.

Personally, I find it an interesting season because there aren't too many heroes or villains. I think the editing has shown strengths and weaknesses in most players.

I am coming from the camp that Cochran can't win unless he is redeemed. I watched the show again and he stated that picking a rock with a 1 in 30 chance was too high. He obviously has had a hard time, but we really haven't seem him doing anything to make this better. He has been really rude about people in confessions, so I can't pull for him to pull this off. We can talk about his not liking his tribe, but he stated that there was no one better to be a double agent than him. He crumbled. It wasn't all his fault that the plan failed, but he let us know that he was not willing to take any chances. This is not a winner!

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11-06-11, 10:52 PM (EST)
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42. "RE: Episode 8 - Editing thoughts:"
Yes, we each have our own biases so that is why I rely mostly on the recaps. That is the bare-bone story, the one we are meant to remember. It's still subject to interpretation but the margin for error is reduced.

Imagine two possible recaps for this week, Jeff: "Previously...On Survivor

1) Coach read through Cochran's attempts to fool Upolu and forced him to flip.

2) Ozzy's acting was so bad that Cochran had no chance to convince Coach so he did what he had to do to stay in the game.

If we have 1 then an Upolu is winning but if we have 2 than Cochran is winning. The obvious manipulations during the RID made me think we will get something closer to #2 so that's why I wrote my analysis that way.

I'd love to see Dawn win because she also has a great story but that story doesn't point to a win. I could have easily pulled for Sophie who appears to be smart, strong and nice but who is she? I'd be disappointed if she won, not because of who she is (I don't care at all about any of them) but because we haven't seen her story.

"Personally, I find it an interesting season because there aren't too many heroes or villains. I think the editing has shown strengths and weaknesses in most players."

You are absolutely right. That is one of the strong points of this season. They often manufacture villains like they did with Jerri, Ami and Laura or Heroes like they did with James and Sugar. It can make for a good story but I prefer balance.

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44. "RE: Episode 8 - Editing thoughts:"
"...there aren't too many heroes or villains"

I humbly disagree... Cochran, Coach, Brandon, and possibly Keith's "bullying" (and maybe Jim's "sneakiness"... or Ozzy if you're wearing crazy-glasses) have all been shown as villains, with almost no redeeming values. 3/18 or 5/18... that's a lot for a season!

The difference between Cochran, Coach, and Brandon as villains:

Coach: Manipulative; liar; self-serving; forcing people (sometimes even physically) to follow his moves
Brandon: liar (to Stacey; about Mikayla); narrow-minded black & white views
Cochran: the epitome of self-serving; whiner; tattle-tale; doesn't stick up for himself

I'm fine with Coach's method (I'm still a big fan of Russell, and this was his method), but Cochran's villainous ways are new... like he's accidentally a villain without even trying. If he tried, I'd like him more. He's coasting, taking the easy way out, blaming others for his inability to fit in (or perform at challenges, provide at camp...). He's not outwitting anyone. He's not outplaying anyone. He may outlast everyone, but that's not a winner any of us should be getting behind. At least Fabio did well in challenges, and Russell's Natalie was shown engaging in strategy. What has Cochran been shown to do? Even this last vote was an afterthought... flip-flopping... if they had gone another 5 votes, I bet he'd've flipped another 3 times.

As for heroes, yes, there seems to be a lack. Maybe just Ozzy (outside chance of Dawn).

That's not to say that a villain can't win (or that an UTR player can't win), but there certainly are quite a few players who are doing disreputable things, which marks them as villains.

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11-06-11, 03:39 PM (EST)
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38. "RE: Episode 8 - Editing thoughts:"
Thanks yet again for a very interesting analysis Michel. I will not be posting my analysis of the episode or the rest of the season as I have accidentally come across some spoilers. I'm not sure how reliable they are but I feel that my objectivity is compromised. (As a side note can I just say how I really dislike being spoiled! I much prefer to see and try to guess how things will unfold.)
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11-06-11, 08:11 PM (EST)
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40. "RE: Episode 8 - Editing thoughts:"
LAST EDITED ON 11-06-11 AT 08:56 PM (EST)

I understand and applaud your restraint. Should you wish from time to time to make a comment on what has been posted, make an uninfluenced reply on a particular with which you either agree or disagree, go ahead, we'll trust your judgment.

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45. "RE: Episode 8 - Editing thoughts:"
First time posting.


I find it crazy that some of you think Cochran won’t make it to the final episode (the only way I see you being right is if they are building up his character for another season). They’re already shown the divide in the Upolu’s tribe and here’s how I see the edit set it up to end; Sophia, Al, and Rick won’t like the fact that they see Cochran, Brandon, Coach, and Eden as having more numbers – and will try something to correct it, that will backfire making the final group Cochran, Brandon, Coach, Edna (and maybe Dawn). Cochran, Coach, and somebody with no chance (probably Edna) will be the final three – with the jury (Albert, Sophia, and maybe Brandon) bringing Coach’s integrity into serious doubt, given Cochran the win and a very impressive first survivor performance (at least through the eyes of the edit).

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11-07-11, 01:17 PM (EST)
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46. "RE: Episode 8 - Editing thoughts:"
LAST EDITED ON 11-07-11 AT 01:59 PM (EST)

I forgot to point out one crack in the theory that Brandon, Coach, Cochran and Edna all make the Final 4: the Redemption Island returnee. That person might make the Final 4.

ETA: Sorry about that. I should have known better.


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47. "RE: Episode 8 - Editing thoughts:"
LAST EDITED ON 11-07-11 AT 01:33 PM (EST)

Belle, please edit out the rumor sentence

Welcome aboard, stu! I don't discount the possibility that Cochran could win, it just takes a lot of things to fall into place for it to happen, one of those being that he has to somehow get to Final Tribal. As I said up towards the top of the thread, I don't think his story is over, it just doesn't scream winner at me.

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11-07-11, 01:34 PM (EST)
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48. "RE: Episode 8 - Editing thoughts:"
That's just great. Thanks a lot, Belle. Now I can't even come to this thread, what was the one safe place, without worrying about spoilers.

I am out of here for the rest of freaking season. This just sucks.

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11-07-11, 07:32 PM (EST)
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50. "Revisiting Dawn's Edit"
The story that Jeff says they tell over and over again is how the Hero (the eventual winner), accompanied by one trusted friend, battles the Villain. Batman and Robin as the Dynamic Duo against the Joker. That story worked best in Survivor’s most successful season, the Outback, where we had Tina and Colby fighting together against Jerri. We saw the pattern again with Rupert and Sandra against Fairplay, Amber and Rob against Lex, Chris and Twila against Ami, Tom and Ian against Katie, Aras and Cirie against Terry.

Sometimes it’s a duo against everybody else: Rich and Rudy against Pagong, Danni and Rafe against the Axis of Evil, Yul and Ozzy against Raro, Earl and Yau Man against the 4 Horsemen, Todd and Amanda against Jean Robert, James and Zhan Hu, JT and Stephen against Timbira.

Being an unscripted show, the roles aren’t always as clearly defined. For example Ian and Katie were friends. Or one can think of Bob and Sugar against Kenny where Matty would have fit better than Bob who took his place next to Sugar very late in the season. Or Jenna and Heidi against Rob when it would have been so much better, for the editors and many of the viewers, if it had been Rob and Matt against Jenna. The one constant is that the two friends come to rely completely on each other through most of the game.

Who forms the dynamic duo this season? We have, on one side: Coach with one of Brandon, Sophie, Albert or Edna. On the other: Cochran and Dawn. It’s immediately clear that Sophie, Albert and Edna’s stories don’t have the amplitude associated with the players listed above. Between Brandon and Coach, we know that there are issues. Coach even said that Brandon will be shocked to learn some things later. The trust isn’t like we saw in those other examples.

No, the duo that fits best is Cochran and Dawn so, therefore, the antagonist is Coach.

The next question obviously is: Does this season fit the pattern well, partially or not at all? Since Jeff mentioned it before this season, we have to assume it does. Afterall, he did mention Game Theory just before Cesternino was about to show it in action.

The biggest question is: Cochran or Dawn? Who is the Hero, who is the sidekick?

Thinking about this showed me flaws in Cochran’s edit:

In episode 1 Semhar said something like Cochran was playing the game in his head, not really playing. (I’d love the exact quote but Global has erased the video)

In episode 2 Mark said that John’s biggest problem was that, physically, he would be a threat to himself.

In the latest episode, Dawn said: “I won’t say a thing, I am just going to let you play…To me, that’s just like starting a war and that’s not how you remedy something…Why would they watch out for you over their own people? If they had two people winning immunity today, they wouldn’t even be talking to you…You totally have to play wour game but I am telling you: What goes around, comes around. I think the way you treat people totally affects the way you live your life and I think that is going to affect them in this game.”

Maybe Papa Bear was right about Cochran hurting himself but socially, not physically. Maybe Semhar is right and Cochran’s move was great on paper but not in real-life Survivor. And, even if Dawn meant that the CoolKids would get what’s coming to them, in this social game the implication is that Cochran will get hurt for starting this war.

Those doubts aren’t the kind we want to find in an eventual winner because they question his character, not his circumstances.

Dawn could very well be our winner and it came to me that most of my concerns about her center on game analysis, not editing analysis. Her edit does have flaws, mostly that she was often ignored, not part of the story. That her own story was more about proving herself than winning (much like Yau Man, Ian, Stephen…) Another problem is that we heard Dawn change her mind only after we had heard her saying she was safe from the vote. It makes her look very much like an opportunist. Some might even say a hypocrite.

Game wise, she is in a big predicament but we have seen that there are cracks in the Upolu 6. Maybe Rick’s surprise at receiving votes caused another fracture. Galu’s John had told us it wasn’t fun being designated as the pawn so maybe Rick will have the same reaction when he learns that Sophie knew he was Savaii’s target and didn’t tell him. Rick, Dawn and Cochran; that’s still only three votes but once the rest of Savaii is gone, they’ll be needing only 1 or 2 more.

It’s interesting to note that, by leaving a “mom” that cared for him, Cochran joined a “father” that may not be too compassionate.

The recap of next episode will be interesting. Will Jeff say that Dawn tried to save Cochran from making a dangerous move, will he say that Cochran took his fate in his own hands or will that scene, the last exchange between Dawn and Cochran, be ignored. If Jeff implies that Dawn was the voice of reason, I will have to seriously reconsider my pick.


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11-07-11, 09:10 PM (EST)
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53. "RE: Revisiting Dawn's Edit"
Excellent post, michel! I really enjoyed it. Very interesting observation regarding the hero, his/her trusted ally, and the villain. I LOVE it! Great thoughts on Cochran and Dawn.



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11-07-11, 09:48 PM (EST)
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56. "RE: Revisiting Dawn's Edit"
It's a pattern used by many authors of adventure novels. The sidekick usually balances out the hero: If the Hero is strong and serious, the sidekick makes you laughs. You can also use the sidekick to make the hero more likable, more human simply by association. Here, no doubt that Dawn would be the sidekick. On the other hand, the sidekick often blunders and the Hero has to save him. In this case, Dawn could be the Hero if Upolu targets Cochran but, if Dawn is scheduled for pagonging, we are back to Cochran maybe playing the Hero.

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11-07-11, 09:21 PM (EST)
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54. "RE: Revisiting Dawn's Edit"
I hadn't thought about the Batman Robin connection with Dawn and Cochran. I love it! It's nice to hear that you think Dawn may stand a chance. I want her to win so I'm never quite sure if I'm just seeing what I want to see in her edit.
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11-07-11, 09:34 PM (EST)
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55. "RE: Revisiting Dawn's Edit"
After I wrote this I remembered that Dawn said she felt like she was the Rudy! The original sidekick...Sorry!
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11-08-11, 02:08 AM (EST)
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57. "RE: Revisiting Dawn's Edit"
This is a very interesting take on things, michel. Make that fascinating. If we are going to comic book analogies, it occurs to me we may want to consider the variant of the hero-sidekick story...

Sidekick-Sidekick!

The sidekick-sidekick story is one in which the hero has fallen under the spell and it is ultimately up to the sidekicks to work together to rescue the whole thing.

We have, actually, two potential sidekick-sidekick parallel stories running here, so let me lay it out in comic book terms:

Superman (Ozzy) has been affected by Red Kryptonite and is running wild, it is up to Lois (Dawn) and Jimmy (Cochran) to team up and work together to fix things.

Meanwhile, Batman (Coach 3.0) has fallen thrall to Poison Ivy (Coach 1.0), it is up to Robin (Albert) and Batgirl (Sophie) to work together and make things right.

If it were a comic book (okay, it's Survivor not a comic book story, every analogy falls apart at some point) the four sidekicks would ultimately join together, work together, make things right in the end, and get their pats on the backs from the established heroes.

Just food for thought.

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11-08-11, 10:04 AM (EST)
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58. "RE: Cochran = Anakin?"
I love this analysis, other than Cochran being viewed as a hero. Hero references/journeys naturally make us (er, me) think of Star Wars. So maybe he's the Anakin Skywalker character (minus the love interest) - young, ambitious, wants to have more power/recognition than he's really ready to have... no one wants him around during the adult conversations... keeps making mistakes that mess up his side's chances at success... "You're not ready to take on a real Jedi at Redemption Island...let's send Mace Windu instead."

But he doesn't view himself as evil - and in fact has decided to join the "dark insidious" character to take out his old friends. Dawn is probably Obi Wan in this analogy. The question is whether Dawn can turn her old pupil from the dark side for his eventual redemption...

...and whether the story ends at Episode III with the emperor-like Coach in victory (and Cochran screaming a pathetic "Nooo!"), or with Episode VI & Cochran's heir saving the day with the help of fuzzy teddy bears.

(I just find it very doubtful that Cochran can be a hero with all that he's actually done... I'm not saying I'd've been any better, I'm just saying he's clearly not a natural Survivor-like "Hero")

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11-08-11, 01:44 PM (EST)
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59. "RE: Cochran = Anakin?"
The edit used to focus on building heroes and villain by not showing unflattering scenes of heroes and only unflattering scenes of villains (and still does), but in recent seasons the trend seems to be to edit an individual in a way that splits the viewers opinions – some think Cochran’s a hero some think he’s a villain (he’s good at strategy/bad at strategy, lucky/unlucky, Bill Gates type nerd/Simpson’s comic book guy type nerd). The editors seem to think – the more aspects of the game the viewers debate the better($).

It makes predicting the game through the edit a lot tougher because you now can’t rely as much on historical precedent on familiar types of editing.

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60. "RE: Cochran = Anakin?"
That's a very good point.

We had to change our way of viewing an edit of a character in recent seasons (Russhole, Boston Rob, and now Coach/Ozzy) because of our familiarity with these characters influencing their current seasons - for example, we all knew Rob and Russhole were going to get a huge edit last season, so we could not narrow down certain editing behaviours in a normal way. It didn't matter what Russhole did good or bad, we all had a certain opinion of him even if the editors might have had something good to work with.

Cochran is also changing things because of the major impact he's had on this season so the editors are hyping him up more than usual and they're pulling all of the stereotypes out of the hat. As we've seen on these boards already, it's clear he's a polarizing character, and will remain that way whether he wins or loses this season.

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11-08-11, 06:24 PM (EST)
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61. "Nerd love"
Perhaps SEG wants its piece of "The Social Network" demographic. Zuckerberg, hero of his own story or villain? Or neither? But Cochran is far less interesting, and sadly, not played by Jesse Eisenberg. <Eisenberg fan here>

Excellent comment, stu. I had not thought of that, and it rings very true.

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11-08-11, 07:05 PM (EST)
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62. "RE: Revisiting Dawn's Edit"
I like the hero/sidekick discussion. Can you tell me where Jeff made that remark about the storytelling? It is one I missed.

I am not a comicbook fan at all, so when I think of sidekicks I think of Holmes & Watson, Don Quixote & Sancho Panza, Shakespeare (many). Actually the sidekick character goes all the way back to Greek and Roman Literature.

I decided to a little reading (thanks michel!) and found a paragraph that struck me in Wikipedia's article on "Sidekick."

A villain's supporters are normally called henchmen, minions, or lackeys, not sidekicks. While this is partially a convention in terminology, it also reflects that few villains are capable of bonds of friendship and loyalty, which are normal in the relationship between a hero and sidekick.

This may also be due to the different roles in fiction of the protagonist and the antagonist: whereas a sidekick is a relatively important character due to his or her proximity to the protagonist, and so will likely be a developed character, the role of a henchmen is to act as cannon-fodder for the hero and his sidekick.

As a result, henchmen tend to be anonymous, disposable characters, existing for the sole purpose of illustrating the protagonists' prowess as they defeat them."

I thought the difference between henchman and sidekick is quite interesting. If loyalty is one defining factor, is not Upolu the tribe to look to? Isn't Savai'i the tribe of no loyalty, where Jim and Cochran and Keith have competed for the title of head villain?

OTOH, Coach's allies have not been developed as much in terms of character, so that would put them more in the henchman class.

It's as if by staying loyal and achieving the advantage, Upolu became the villains because everyone (and especially Survivor) loves an underdog. Plus Upolu has Brandon.

I really do not see Coach as the Villain though. While the praying was sketchy, he did what he needed to do for his own game and to keep his tribe from fracturing over who had the idol. His ruse was the game equivalent to Boston Rob getting his tribe involved in a beach game while he secured the idol for himself -- only he tailored his strategy to Brandon's psychology.

As for Dawn, I see her as a heroine who got stuck in the wrong tribe, one where being 40 years old put her on the outside. With an unstable rat type as her unlikely friend.

Her type of character does best when there is a Colby or a Chase (Holly) to adopt. It is hard to form new bonds after the merge, much easier if there is a swap pre-merge. If Dawn gets to stick around, she might bond with someone, but honestly, I think that she and Cochran are a misfit pairing that only exists because they were both cast to the outer fringe of the tribe.

btw, a true sidekick is always same sex. An opposite sex pairing is something different, even if it is not romantic. (Ron Weasley was Harry Potter's sidekick, but Hermione was not a sidekick; she was a secondary protagonist. Unlike with LOTR, where Sam, Merry, Pippin were all sidekicks at first. Then when separated into pairs, Sam was Frodo's sidekick, and Pippin was Merry's. Gimli the dwarf was sidekick to elf Legolas when they became paired, but both were Aragorn's sidekicks when they were a threesome.)

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11-08-11, 10:06 PM (EST)
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63. "RE: Revisiting Dawn's Edit"
It came in Jeff's reply to Beatles in Sucks proper. But, to be clear, Jeff didn't talk about sidekicks. He just said that Survivor always tells the same story in different ways. I am the one that looked at Rich/Rudy and Tina/Colby as being their pattern simply because, as you pointed out, it has been a pattern since Ancient Greece.

Yes, most of Coach's allies are much to undeveloped to be sidekicks while Brandon is still to unlikable. As for loyalty, we know that Upolu's loyalty is very superficial. It worked at the merge but we know that they should have another blow-up. Coach referred to a famous sidekick; Lenny. That story didn't end well so will we see a parallel for Upolu?

Dawn talked about being Rudy. Cochran will never be as polarizing as Hatch!

Coach is a villain in my eyes because we got to hear Christine and Stacey. If the editors wanted us to see an idealized Coach then those two women would have been silenced like Elyse when she went to RI.

As for sidekicks being of the same gender, I'd say that authors have a latitude that reality TV editors don't.

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11-08-11, 10:55 PM (EST)
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64. "RE: Revisiting Dawn's Edit"
Nice point about Lenny.

Well, my answer to that is that comment was used to show us that Coach has an emotional distance from Brandon and thinks of him differently. Coach has bad memories from Russell. He fears the Hantz gene pool, distrusts it. Brandon is to be used until he is no longer useful, or becomes too much of a liability.

But we were also shown that Coach works well with others of his tribe. When he differed from Sophie and Albert, he pulled strings to go against their wishes on the boot, but he then united with them over the idol. So far, he has said nothing to indicate how he feels about this core alliance. We are in the dark about Coach's idea of an endgame.

The editors are keeping us in suspense over whether Coach wants to drag his goats along or go "with the warriors." We were also kept in doubt whether Rob's bond with Grant was good enough for him to keep Grant over the zombie girls or Phillip.

I think for right now that Coach is the best player this season in terms of guiding how things go. I'm not saying he will win like Rob. I think Coach would have huge resistance from a jury over voting for him. Plenty of people thought that Rob should have won All Stars, but I don't think anyone has ever said that Coach should have won either of his two seasons.

I disagree about the two women. I didn't like either Stacey or Christine, so their poor opinion meant nothing to me. I don't think the editors want to show idealized players this season at all. Not with Ozzy, or Coach, or Cochran, or Dawn, or Jim, not with any of them. The cast is all flawed and imperfect, but one of this cast will win.

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11-09-11, 12:49 PM (EST)
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65. "RE: Revisiting Dawn's Edit"
I agree with you, Outfrontgirl. We have to remember that Coach has bad memories of Troll (with good reason). He probably trusts Brandon the least of his allies. And although we saw him differ from Albert and Sophie in terms of Mikayla, he was able to get back with them before the next challenge.

I also didn't like Stacey and I wasn't fond of Christine's strategic play -- her challenge skills were the only thing that won my respect there -- so their poor opinion meant little to me as well.

Although there is a chance that Cochran might get enough votes to win if Savaii calms down enough to respect his game play (Jim) or just feel sorry for him (Dawn), there's also a chance that the true winner will emerge in the second half, that one most likely being Sophie. We have to wait and see after Keith, Ozzy, Jim and Whitney are either on the jury or on Redemption Island before we can tell for sure.


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66. "RE: Revisiting Dawn's Edit"
Long-time lurker since before Survivor-China here….LOVE the hard work and thoughtful analysis by all! Here’s my first contribution to your analysts’ stew.

- Ozzie: Is he getting the Terry Dietz edit? Remember Terry and Bob-Gabon standing on top of their little mountains, surveying their respective kingdoms? Ozzie had no mountains (??), but last night he stood in a palm tree. What does that say about his chances of winning? Bob won. Terry “should’ve” won, based on the non-binding “recount” that Jeff conducted at his reunion.

Which pattern fits? I say Terry. Bob was not shown saying anything cocky, even when making his fake idol. Terry was shown with two bad moments. I wondered at the time if TPTB had to scour the tapes to find ANY bad moments to justify his loss. No such problem with Jiffy’s younger favorite.

- Looking like Jesus Christ: Ozzie AND Coach, Ozzie much more strongly. Who talks more like the Bible quotes? Coach. Remember his “I am not worthy” moment? It reminded me a little of the Garden of Gethsemane. Both are getting a strong redemption edit, the season’s theme but not necessarily the winner’s theme.

- Other Biblical references: Brandon called Mikayla “Delilah,” although she demonstrated no behavior that would match the title. Who came closest to being a “Delilah”? Elysse, Whitney next, Semhar maybe? We saw longhaired Samson-Ozzie susceptible to them in varying degrees (AND of course to Amanda in Heroes Vs. Villains, to a much stronger degree).

The Bible shows Samson as a hero who was blinded but then brought the house down trying to destroy the Philistines. Ozzie “killed”” the “Philistine” at hand, Christine. He may “kill” one or two more. But Samson did not bring down the Philistine Empire; he just destroyed the leaders of one city-state. Ozzie can be a “hero with faults” to many, but that may or may not be enough for a total victory.

- Cochran vs. Cirie, vs. Todd-China and vs. Stephen-Tocantins? All four are quote machines, strategists AND betrayers of former allies. However, there is only one winner among the three previous contestants. Articulate Todd defeated teary Amanda. But charismatic AND articulate JT de-railed Stephen. Cochran has shown traits of Todd and Stephen, but also of Amanda. (Nerves, self-doubt, etc.)

Unlike Cirie, he seems to embrace the dual role of lovable/villainous. But Cirie never expressed the insecurity Cochran still shows. And unlike Amanda, Cochran is finally taking responsibility for his actions. But can he finally deliver her actual, behind-the-scenes strategic acumen?

- Who’s being cocky? It seems to depend upon one’s personal preferences. There are many candidates, two of whom have played twice before and have created impressions that are etched in stone for many people.

- What would Tom Westman do? And who most closely fits the Tom Westman mold?
> Like Ozzie, he’d find the idol, provide huge fish for his tribe, and win most challenges. Like Ozzie, he had flaws, two of which were shown (pressuring Ian, drunken tabletop performance). Unlike Ozzie, he was not shown with a temper or displaying petty moments. Also, I don’t remember him making any clear declarations of “I will never give up,” or “I will beat all comers.” His carriage implied the first; modesty and diplomacy prevented the latter.
> Like Albert, he’d combine physical challenge prowess with clear speech and insight into other players.
> Like Coach, he’d use diplomacy and rule-by-consensus to keep his tribe strong. Like Coach, he had onion layers to his alliances, even his pre-game alliance with Stephanie. Like Coach, he’d find the idol with only one clue, and pick the right players for the right roles in challenges. He’d also pressure Cochran the way he pressured Ian. Unlike Coach, he would not lead prayer groups (saying faith is a private matter), nor push someone to kneel or to join a group. And for Coach’s Dragon-Chi, substitute fishing or chopping wood.
> Would Tom smile or look satisfied at the results of tribal council? You betcha. Would he sit out a challenge to eat? No. But if he were questioned as Coach was, would he laugh? You betcha.

What do Tom Westman and Terry Dietz have to do with the Redemption Island theme? Jiffy still calls Tom “one of the two or three best players to ever play Survivor.” He painted Terry as the real winner at the reunion. I think he thinks these two represent the best of Survivor, and that “Redemption” involves growing up to be more like them.
Jiffy clearly wants to show both Ozzie and Coach growing up to be either Tom or Terry. Mission accomplished. Winner’s edit? Maybe yes, may no.

He also clearly wants to show Cochran as Todd-Stephen. Why? Perhaps because those two consistently turn down his invitations to return? Can he get Cochran to return? You betcha. Can Cochran pull a Todd and win? Maybe yes, maybe no.

I’m sorry, I meant to keep this short. Have at it! And come back Corvis!

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11-12-11, 06:18 PM (EST)
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67. "Episode 9 - Editing Thoughts:"
LAST EDITED ON 11-12-11 AT 07:40 PM (EST)

Previously on Survivor, on day 19, the two tribes merged…and Ozzy returned from Redemption Island and was back in the game.
To get information to break the tie, Cochran promised to spy on the old Upolu…but Cochran’s espionage career was short-lived when Coach seduced him into actually jumping ship.
<we saw Cochran laugh at the suggestion he’d be sleeping between Coach and Edna>
At the immunity challenge, there were two winners.
At Tribal Council, Ozzy gave his immunity idol to Whitney…but Whitney didn’t receive any votes.
On the revote, Cochran blindsided Ozzy and his old alliance and voted with the former Upolu tribe…
<We hear Jim calling Cochran a coward>
…Sending Keith to Redemption Island.
Now the former Upolu tribe plus Cochran have taken over the game.
Jeff said it was, without question, the biggest move in the game thus far.

The recap ignored both Ozzy’s bad acting and Dawn’s attempt to keep Cochran loyal to Savaii so it’s very neutral towards Cochran’s move, Certainly saying that Coach seduced him isn’t very positive but it could have been worse; saying that Coach saw through his lies and forced his hand.


Tuna – Night 21

Ozzy wanted to talk to Cochran alone.
He asked what was up.
Cochran said it had nothing to do with getting back at Ozzy, adding: “I didn’t obsess about this game for 11 years to let my fate be decided by picking a stone out of a bag.”
Ozzy: “You totally screwed me over.”
Brandon interrupted, wanting to be sure no one was being aggressive.
Ozzy assured him he was calm.

Ozzy: “Cochran said it was all about self-preservation and, sure, that’s the easy way out, that’s how a weiner plays.”

Jim walked by saying Cochran was a poor excuse for a man.
Whitney added “You realize Keith and I saved you three times… You throw the whole tribe under the bus and we are going to be knocked out one by one… You disgust me.”

Cochran: “I kinda have mixed emotions right now. On the one hand; I am glad that I stood up to the people that have been repeatedly referring to me as indecisive, weak even annoying but it’s kind of a weird balancing act I am doing right now between the Upolu members who are now embracing me more than ever and my former tribe members who really seem to hate my guts.”

We heard Whitney saying: “He just lost me 6 weeks of my freaking life out here.”
Jim added: “He’s a piece of $&*!”

Day 22

Coach: “We pulled off an amazing feat at Tribal Council last night. Our tribe of Upolu members stood six strong against all odds and it’s cause for celebration. It’s cause for walking the beach, saying a little prayer, starting the day off right, maybe a little Tai-Chi. I feel like if I can just be confident and not arrogant, I can be humble but not weak, I think I have a good shot of going all the way.”

As we heard that, we saw a close-up of Coach’s clenched fist, as it began to shake.

Coach then asked Cochran whom he would like to see voted out next.
Cochran said that Ozzy would have to be voted out as soon as he lost immunity but that, personally, Jim would be his choice.

Ozzy: “Survivor can really be cut-throat and you got to trust people at certain points and those people can turn around and just stick a knife right in your gut. That’s what Cochran did so my total strategy is gone, I have nothing more I can do. I’m just going to keep fighting and I’ll bust my ass today at the challenge and I’m going to keep on winning until there’s no one left.”

The First Challenge

Despite his pledge to win, Ozzy didn’t get to the second round.
Dawn, Whitney, Jim and Sophie were the four competitors.
We heard these fun comments:
“Dawn, trying to stay in this.”
“Huge set-back for Sophie.”
“Jim, celebrating already”
Jim won immunity.

Back in camp, Brandon said it would have to be Ozzy, asking: “How many chances to you get to vote him out of this game?”
Cochran, jokingly replied: “Apparently two!”
Brandon took a minute to catch up and then realized: “Oh! Yeah!”

Ozzy was alone with Coach, saying he didn’t want to go.

Coach: “Ozzy knows that there’s a good chance he could get voted out tonight and there’s a huge difference between yesterday when he held all the cards and the cockiness that he had and then today. I actually appreciate Ozzy’s humility. If it’s fake, or if it’s too late or if it’s simply born out of desperation, that’s OK. Some of the greatest inspiration is born of desperatio, Marcus Aurelius once said. But, at this point, it’s too little too late.”

Coach hugged Ozzy saying: “You are coming back.”
Ozzy replied: “I’ll try.”

Next, Dawn invited Coach to try the shelter.

Dawn: “We are going to Tribal Council tonight and there are really 4 Savaii members. Jim has immunity; Ozzy, myself or Whitney are going to Redemption. So, we either have to just stay loyal to the final 4 of us and just go down in flames or I’m going to consider flipping and voting with the Upolu tribe.”

Jim: “I would never, ever have thrown my tribe under the bus like Cochran did. I call a coward a coward. That’s me because I am not a coward.” Jim then presented a big idea to Ozzy: Giving him the necklace and telling Upolu to vote for Cochran, the only dishonorable player. Jim’s confessional continued: “If I don’t go tonight, I go tomorrow night. If I don’t go tomorrow night, I go the next night. I really don’t have many nights left here so my hope is that I can give a rousing enough speech at Tribal Council to get a couple of them to flip over to Cochran. It’s all I need: Two of those seven people to vote for Cochran. Then, all of a sudden, we’ve got a game.”

Ozzy: “Everything is pretty surreal to me right now. If Jim honestly gives me the immunity necklace tonight, I’ll feel like I am dreaming. Knowing Jim, if he says he’s going to give me the necklace, I believe he will. Who knows what will happen in this game and I am never going to give up, as long as I live and certainly not here on Survivor.”

Ozzy was then seen standing by the beach, a rainbow out in the distance.

Tribal Council

Jeff noted that the themes of the last two Tribal Councils had been big moves. He asked Cochran about the reactions to his huge move.
Cochran described it as chilly. Asked who had barked the most, Cochran told Jeff that it had been Jim.
Jim described his words as immature because he took it personally.

Cochran said his reaction was to remain silent and listen, adding: “It was a personal decision. I viewed it as an opportunity to take hold of my own fate…to play with the sort of people that I wanted to play with. I didn’t mean any disrespect to my old tribe…I didn’t mentally prepare for this for 11 years for having my fate decided by pulling a rock out of a bag. There’s a reason why the last time people drew rocks was season 4 because people realized that’s not how you play Survivor, it’s not the essence of Survivor. It’s about making decisions that I can be happy with.”

Jim countered that he had saved Cochran in many votes and that Ozzy had also saved him. He added: “I’ve known the Upolu tribe over the last couple of days and there’s not a single one of them that would let somebody fight their battles for them. There’s not a single person in that tribe that would do something so dishonorable.”
Brandon commented that the tone had changed since the last Council. He added: “The Upolu tribe is standing behind Cochran.”
Whitney felt she was being villainized while Ozzy asked Cochran if he had made him feel small.
Cochran answered that Ozzy had tried to get him voted out for being weak.
Asked about Immunity, Jim said: “I thought of giving it to Ozzy tonight…I know they respect us as competitors, I know that they see that I have a warrior heart and a warrior soul <Coach, obviously, shown here> and there are 10 of us that haven’t wavered from our tribe once. There’s one person who has. Today, as one voice, we can send the message to anybody that will ever play Survivor that you can go through this game honorably <Rick and Sophie shown> and that, if you are a turn-coat <Albert shown agreeing>, you have no place in my tribe. You can say that right now by voting out Cochran.”

Coach replied: “Jim starts talking about warrior this and warrior that, I stand up a little bit straighter and listen with a more attentive ear.”
Asked about voting Cochran, Coach saw a different message being sent: “I think it would send a message to everybody that, if you stick up for yourself, you are going to get screwed. And I’m not going to see that happen.”
Jim said it would still be 6-4.
Sophie told Jeff that they weren’t eliminating someone for sure.
Ozzy said that he won’t have to feed 11 people on Redemption Island, just himself. He will be back was the message he wanted to deliver.
Jim told Jeff he would be keeping the necklace.

As he reached for his torch, Ozzy told the group: “You guys fell for my master plan.”

Jeff sent them back to camp saying the game had been unpredictable for 22 days so, for Whitney, Dawn and James, they had to hope it would stay that way.

While we heard Ozzy’s exit confessional, we saw that Dawn and Whitney had voted with Upolu. Ozzy talked about his big risks and how it made him proud.
He was confident he’d send everyone packing as soon as they got to RI.

Day 23

It started at Redemption Island with Ozzy exploring the reef and catching the biggest fish we’ve ever seen caught on Survivor.
The music was nice but it made me think of a Caribbean vacation. It wasn’t an up-tempo “getting ready to fight” tune.

The Challenge

When Jeff announced the feast twist, he noticed that everybody was celebrating except Coach.
Coach explained that he wanted to compete.
Jeff stated the obvious: “Well, compete!”
Jim said that 7 people didn’t need to compete.
Coach replied: “We are like family…unified in our stance.”

Once the eating began, Jeff asked Coach if he was still wishing he was competing.
Coach simply laughed.
Jeff then asked Brandon about the pastries.
Brandon replied: “I don’t want to talk, I want to eat.”
Jim was the first to drop out to Brandon’s obvious delight.
Dawn told the group that she will stay so they can eat. She explained that she felt it was one tribe now so they should eat as much as they could.
A point was reached where they couldn’t eat anymore, Brandon even saying: “I think I am out.”
Cochran told him to rest his head on his shoulder, another sign of their bond.
Brandon showed he was pulling for Dawn when she made an “awesome” recovery.
Whitney noticed the favoritism.

Albert: “I didn’t like the way we treated Dawn at the challenge. I thought we were a little too inclusive with her. I want to nip this in the bud as soon as I can.”

Although Jeff twice said: “Upolu tribe and Cochran” there weren’t any direct jabs at Cochran for feeling so secure with his new tribe. It was like he was part of the family. It’s doubtful that Upolu, as a tribe, will decide to vote him out before the two other Savaiis. It would have to be an individual initiative.
An individual that could initiate a plan against Cochran is Albert. It’s interesting to note that we now have a second example of Albert’s plans being rejected by Coach. It’s a developing pattern so I expect that, when it starts to get funky as Ozzy said, he will try to make a move that will get him voted out.

Day 24

It started with Cochran goofing off in Coach’s attire. Everyone enjoyed the show except…

Jim: “Cochran, right now, is playing the most brilliant third place game in Survivor history. (I guess he didn’t see Dreamz!) Everyone of those nine people would love to take Cochran to the end. Cochran isn’t going nowhere but It’s not looking good for me. I am 100% going to Redemption Island unless I make some moves right now.”

During Jim’s confessional, we heard Coach enjoying Cochran’s act, saying: “You are the man!”
Edna added: “Now you are fully incorporated into our tribe.”

We know how much feeling incorporated is important for Edna. If we remember, last week we had a screenshot making us think that 3 of Edna, Cochran, Coach and Brandon would make it to the end. It can’t be a coincidence that, as soon as Jim mentioned that Cochran was a great Final 3 goat, we heard Coach and Edna commenting on Cochran. Coach also said he was surprised to see that side of Cochran so I expect the nerd will show a new side during that Final TC.

Jim talked to Sophie and Albert, the only two that, according to Jim, weren’t drinking the Kool-Aid, that weren’t in the cult. He proposed they vote out Edna.

Albert: “Jim approached me and Sophie and said: “I have a plan: Get rid of Edna.” He drew up something that was pretty creative and pretty outside-the-box so to speak. I don’t need to entertain Jim’s offer because I have a much better plan than anything he could offer me right now. I think that Dawn, even though she doesn’t seem as overtly dangerous as Jim is, is maybe more dangerous than him in a lot of ways because she is more likable and she is slowly but surely making her way into our alliance.”

Dawn: “I always see myself as someone that can bring together different types of people. So, for me, it couldn’t be better at this stage to be that kind of person because I’m probably a good person to try to get myself in with the former Upolu tribe members and see if there’s some wiggle room there. It’s just a matter of whether I can hang on long enough.”

It’s very interesting to have been shown this scene right after Cochran’s incorporation scene. It showed us that it was possible to become part of the Upolu family if you acted soon enough. Dawn, despite being good at bringing people together, started too late so she is now on Albert’s radar. On the other hand, Dawn will get more time so…

Sophie had a confessional after Albert told her his plan: “Albert, he is getting nervous. He’s thinking a lot right now of switching up the game and I think those are important things to think about in general Survivor strategy but I’d like to stay rigid with the plan. I’d rather get rid of Jim.”

Coach and Brandon joined the pair so Albert told them about his thoughts on Dawn.

Coach: “We are in the jungle right now so I think an analogy with the animal kingdom would suffice at this moment: You’ve got Jimbo who is like a rhinoceros that just comes charging straight towards you and then you got somebody like Dawn. She is the serpent, the snake that comes sneaking through the grass. Today, at the challenge, Dawn was getting the most cheers. People are starting to like Dawn so I see Dawn as a snake and Jim as a rhinoceros. Both can kill you but, hopefully, we are going to send the right person home tonight.”

Tribal Council

Jeff asked Coach: “Is it between Dawn or Jim?”
Coach said absolutely.
Sophie said that Dawn was really strong but that Jim would be her pick if she had to make a roster.
Albert commented that Dawn was more likable, adding that she might be the strongest female player of the season.
Dawn agreed that Savaii would have done the same to Upolu. She added that she wouldn’t have eaten the food.
That surprised Brandon. He didn’t buy her explanation. He said: “They are being nice because they have to.”
Dawn understood what Brandon was saying so she explained that it was hard for her.
Brandon promised Jeff to pagong the whole Savaii tribe.
Whitney said she felt they were being villified even if she had been as honest as Upolu. She added: “We are hungry too but we have to fight for our lives.” It brought her to tears because: “They don’t accept us as real people.” <Brandon and Coach shown on screen at that moment.> “We were pegged as the bullies. I never once was a bully, it’s hard to take. I am not a bad person.”
Brandon sympathised with Whitney but repeated: “We were excluded until we got power.”

Jeff sent them to vote, a small smile on his face as Cochran passed by in Coach’s outfit.

At the end, Jeff wondered if anything had been revealed that would help Dawn and Whitney.

The Story

Coach is in complete control, Ozzy cannot be defeated, Albert has plans, Sophie sits back and analyses and Cochran? Surely, he can’t win. Then why was the episode mostly about justifying his move?

We heard Jim calling Cochran a coward which many think we wouldn’t have heard if Cochran was the winner but then, Jim himself was shown acting cowardly, keeping his necklace and abandoning his big plan to save Ozzy.

We also heard that “mom” Dawn wanted Cochran to stay with Savaii but then we saw her flip to Upolu also, enticing Coach to her shelter and voting against Ozzy. We heard her say that she was the right person to get along with Upolu and we heard Albert say that she was dangerous because she was so likable. This showed us that Dawn was too little too late. If she had acted at the merge, she could have infiltrated Upolu. Maybe the message was that she still has time. With Albert failing to get her voted out, she could still make it. My opinion is that she served Cochran’s story, showing that he was right not to waste a great opportunity.

We heard Jim saying that Cochran was playing a brilliant game for third place. That, right there, tells us that Cochran will not finish third. There is still the possibility that he gets voted out before the finale but his story points to a seat in front of the jury. If he does make it like I suspect he does, then we should see a new side of Cochran just like Coach said in the “imitating Coach” scene that was inserted in the middle of Jim’s “third place” confessional.

We also had Whitney’s accusations, her reaction of disgust and her tears at Tribal Council that make people think Cochran can’t win. However, Whitney is a minor character so the audience wasn’t meant to feel too bad seeing her tears. Besides, those tears were directed at Brandon and Coach as the camera revealed. They were the two that made her feel bad. Cochran wasn’t seen on screen during that time.

There remains the most damning accusation: Ozzy’s “that’s how a wiener plays”. Cochran's biggest editing problem is that he doesn’t deserve to win. Not a small detail! But, as Coach said, he stuck out for himself, pulling off a huge move so he shouldn’t get screwed because of it. There are still moves to make to get to the Final 3 so there is time for Cochran to show he “deserves” to be there because it is his story.


The Other Characters that Matter:

Jim: As he said, he doesn’t have many nights left.

Brandon: His reactions and comments make him almost as good a goat as his uncle so why are we getting hints that Edna will join Coach and Cochran? Something will have to happen to make Coach think that Brandon could beat him. Brandon’s words during the feast: “I think I am out” make me think he will see it coming and will blow up at TC, making Coach look bad. Coach will put a bullet in Lenny’s head but Lenny will have a chance to retaliate: His final “blow-apart” will cost Coach a chance to win the game.

Ozzy: Showing him once more on the reef could be a sign that he will be the returning player or it was simply part of his tribute. Those under-water scenes were too good to leave out though so we can’t really use them to judge his chances. I think we have to rely on Coach’s words: We did see Ozzy’s Oscar side, the arrogance and the cockiness were only tempered in defeat. Coach seemed to hit it on the head: It was all too little too late. If Ozzy does return to the game it seems that, like Cochran, Brandon will get a second chance to vote him out and Ozzy will set a record for being voted out three times!

Albert: What we see of this other coach tells us he is a smart player. He certainly had no reason to go with Jim’s idea. We heard that he had a better plan and, interestingly, we heard him exposing a plan right after that: He wanted to eliminate Dawn instead of Jim. Just like he wanted to eliminate Edna instead of Mikayla. This new plan also failed. So, even if eliminating Dawn was only part of his “better plan”, the audience sees a player that constantly tries and fails. That doesn’t make a winner.

Sophie: She is still coasting effortlessly through the game, however I expect to see her suffer a huge set-back at some point like Jeff’s challenge commentary foreshadowed. There are no doubts put in her path, no jury questions that usually immediately come to mind when we are dealing with a future finalist. She is there but she is only there. Also, her initial story was about being a strong woman but, in this episode, we heard her closest ally saying that Dawn was the strongest woman this season. It could be a subtle hint that Sophie’s story won’t lead her to victory.

Dawn: As Jeff said during the challenge, she is trying to stay in this but she is falling back fast. However, did Upolu send the wrong person to Redemption Island? Dawn has more time to wiggle and that’s all she said she needed. Her story could get interesting but she would have to outlast one Upolu first…or return from RI!

Coach: I do believe he will make it to the end as his opening scene suggested. Even more, he should be there between Cochran and Edna as the editing suggests. If so, there’s an immediate jury question that arises: What happened to Coach’s mantra of “iron sharpens iron”, of going to the end with warriors? Coach would have sold out to go to the end with the two characters that have been repeatedly called weak in challenges. That question will undoubtedly be raised by Ozzy or Albert. Coach will start shaking at that moment.


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Delurker_MN 15 desperate attention whore postings
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11-12-11, 07:10 PM (EST)
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68. "RE: Episode 9 - Editing Thoughts:"
LAST EDITED ON 11-12-11 AT 07:16 PM (EST)

LAST EDITED ON 11-12-11 AT 07:11 PM (EST)

Brilliant as always, Michel, and with much, too much rich juicy details and insights for a quick response! You picked up on so many things that I missed.

For example: I failed to notice the slam against Sophie (which might echo why Mikayla got the strong woman challenge roles that Sophie did not). Is Sophie merely strong in her own mind? Then what about her pre-Game 1 declarations of being the real controller? Also in her own mind? More needs to happen with her to get any payoff from pre-game publicity.

I agree about Albert. If he turns out to be Final 3 (or even 4), then Burnett/Probst failed to air some good promotional material!

Is Edna Final 3? Does Coach betray her? Does she betray Coach? Does she save Coach again, as in Episode 1? Whatever the answer, these 2 are firmly linked, somehow.

RE Savaii making inroads into Upolu: As smart as Dawn seems to be, will she be/was she outmatched by Harvard Law School?

More later, perhaps. I have to reread your post 3 more times.

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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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11-13-11, 10:38 AM (EST)
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74. "RE: Episode 9 - Editing Thoughts:"
Thank you delurker and welcome to the boards!

It's fun to see all the new peeps and read their ideas.

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Belle Book 3556 desperate attention whore postings
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11-12-11, 08:19 PM (EST)
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69. "RE: Episode 9 - Editing Thoughts:"
I also agree that this is Cochran's story (at least right now). The question is, what is Cochran's story? Is it that of a player who falls short but is so entertaining or polarizing that he will be invited to return? Or is it that of a triumphant winner (as you believe)? We don't have long to find out -- once the stragglers from Savaii (hopefully) are cut from the game we should see Cochran's true story emerge -- and that of the winner.


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11-12-11, 09:19 PM (EST)
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70. "RE: Episode 9 - Editing Thoughts:"
Great thoughts as usual, Michel! As I am unspoiled, this season continues to baffle me!
We were made to think that Upolu was toast, as seen by the dead fish, aslo Ozzy's declaration that he wanted a Savaii to win, hopefully Ozzy himself.

I am still amazed that some viewers still see Cochran's move as justified. Coach applauds his move to not draw rocks, yet Coach would have blown up if one of his tribe had folded like that! Their tribe was "loyal" and is applauded for it by Coach. Yet, he also salutes Cochran for being disloyal! Also, when asked by Ozzy what he did to make him feel bullied, Cochran only could answer that they made him feel weak in challenges. Well, he was weak in challenges! As a survivor strategist, wouldn't he first want to get rid of those holding them back if it weren't him? I'm all for big moves, but he has only made moves as a coward. The "loyal tribe" will be loyal to themselves, not Cochran when the Savaii are gone.

Also, I'd love to hear more from Cochran about his great strategy! Why isn't he getting confessionals about this?

Anyway, loved the imagery with Ozzy. Can't tell if he is returning or just getting a glowing edit. This makes me question Cochran's betrayal more.

Dawn was embarrassing. I loved her before this. Love to hear more from you!

Slider

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rose1974 11 desperate attention whore postings
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11-13-11, 01:28 AM (EST)
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71. "RE: Episode 9 - Editing Thoughts:"
I also lurk here often. A few points I wanted to stress...

1) I also took pause with the imagery w/ Ozzy on top of the tree, and the previews of next week's episode, etc. We've been hit over the head with these images a few times now. Either this means he does end up making it to the finals or as we have seen in the past.. maybe he is the editor's choice (as most deserving) but falls short and these images are an homage to Ozzy. I also take it to mean that he is "king of the survivor jungle". Not a single person out there is as equipped as he is to survive out there. Tarzan kept coming to mind as those images were shown!

2) Dawn's kissing up to Coach was silly. It made her look foolish IMO. I definitely see her as a contender for fan's choice as she has been endeared to the viewers, but I think those moments made her look desperate. Not a winner's edit IMO?

3) Cochran's character to me still needs more development if he is to win. I haven't seen anything that makes him worthy yet (and maybe those editing hadn't seen anything either!). Cochran is studying to be a lawyer. Closing arguments would be his strong suit. Cochran seems to be a very emotional person. Players that show no remorse or emotion for their votes often lose votes with the jury. Those that behave humbly and validate hurt feelings seem to fair better. He also seems to be one that is very perceptive and takes things in that are going on around him. The individuals accused of being bullies could not see their actions as bullying. I'm guessing it was their looks of disappointment, whispers when they think he can't hear them, the body language of disgust after a challenge, dismissals when he needed reassurance, etc. that created that feeling for Cochran. We weren't shown these things, but all that matters is that whatever they were doing.. this is how he perceived it. Is his story one of a victim turned hero? more of a David and Goliath? If he loses it at the final tribal will it be b/c the lawyer couldn't control his jury? (they repeatedly dismiss him and his explanations???)

4)I think things will pick up for coach the next few episodes. His episode of praying and pushing Edna to her knees was a bit over the top for me. Will it be a situation where the person that thinks they are in charge will be blindsided near the end? (tension w/ Coach and Albert is being set up in the previews). Maybe a theme with Coach is the hypocrisy (almost claiming self righteousness)with which the Upolo are criticizing the Savaii about may come back to bite them if there is a Savaii in the final 3.

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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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11-13-11, 02:32 AM (EST)
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73. "RE: Episode 9 - Editing Thoughts:"
Hi Rose, welcome to the board!

I don't look at previews when I write this so I'll wait to see the episode before commenting on Ozzy's great images.

I don't think the editors wanted to make Dawn look foolish. I think they wanted to show that Dawn could have been in the family if she had made the move with Cochran. It's funny that Dawn is called the snake for trying to do what Cochran has already done. He is the snake but Upolu doesn't see it.

We were shown scenes where Cochran wasn't treated as an equal. Ozzy and Elyse in the shelter laughing at his efforts and Ozzy asking him how to spell his name comes to mind. And, in Survivor, there is nothing more telling than the votes. Cochran's name constantly came up so how else should he feel but as an outsider? Lex and Rupert told us how it feels to receive votes.

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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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11-13-11, 02:21 AM (EST)
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72. "RE: Episode 9 - Editing Thoughts:"
Hi Slider,

>Great thoughts as usual, Michel!

Thank you.

>I am still amazed that some
>viewers still see Cochran's move
>as justified.

We do because the editors give us justifications.


>Coach applauds
>his move to not draw
>rocks, yet Coach would have
>blown up if one of
>his tribe had folded like
>that!

"Would have" is not part of the edit though. If Coach sees Cochran as disloyal, we didn't hear him saying it. To Coach, Cochran stood up for himself.


>Their tribe was
>"loyal" and is applauded for
>it by Coach. Yet,
>he also salutes Cochran

That is what the editing is telling us.


>Also, when
>asked by Ozzy what he
>did to make him feel
>bullied, Cochran only could answer
>that they made him feel
>weak in challenges. Well,
>he was weak in challenges!

So were Semhar, Mark and Elyse. Ozzy targeted him from the start.


> As a survivor strategist,
>wouldn't he first want to
>get rid of those holding
>them back if it weren't
>him?

As a Survivor strategist, he would want to get rid of those that aren't in his alliance first.

>I'm all for
>big moves, but he has
>only made moves as a
>coward.

Is this the confessional of a coward?
“The fact that Dawn is now completely unwilling to flip her vote alongside me and alongside Upolu gives me some pause in debating whether or not I want to make the jump but it’s a tough choice. Do I go with a bunch of people that have been constantly rude to me for the past 21 days or do I ditch the rock scenario, jump tribe and possibly cost myself a million dollars because I am going to be causing so many people to be furious at me?”

He sees that the move could cost him a million dollars yet he makes ot anyway. It's a pretty big risk.


>The "loyal tribe"
>will be loyal to themselves,
>not Cochran when the Savaii
>are gone.

Maybe but that hasn't been shown yet. We have been given hints that Upolu will blow apart.


>Also, I'd love to hear more
>from Cochran about his great
>strategy! Why isn't he
>getting confessionals about this?

??

He told us: "I don’t need to be the hero at Redemption Island. I don’t need to be the person that saves my tribe. I’m not here to be a hero. I’m here to make it as far as I can, whether it means slithering on the ground or whatever. I don’t want to shine right now; I’m willing to shine later. And maybe not to shine at all...”


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Belle Book 3556 desperate attention whore postings
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11-13-11, 05:07 PM (EST)
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75. "RE: Episode 9 - Editing Thoughts:"
Slider thus proves the point that people see what they want to see -- Slider ignored the fact that there were signs Cochran felt unappreciated in his own tribe -- and there were signs there, since Keith and Ozzy were rude to him while he was on Savaii. Although Whitney might not have been awful to Cochran, she was associated with Keith who was. And even though Jim was able to work with Cochran, it didn't lead to Cochran's feeling any safer in his own tribe. And we all saw the signs that Keith and Ozzy didn't like Cochran and maybe Jim didn't either. So Slider shouldn't ignore such evidence even if he feels Cochran was a traitor for no good reason.


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11-14-11, 10:29 AM (EST)
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76. "RE: Episode 9 - Editing Thoughts:"
Coach's "shaking hand" was clearly a villain's move (a little like the stereotypical villain vowing victory against the end-goal)... and possibly related to "the more you tighten your grip, the more that people will slip through your fingers." Possibly "he's shaking, can't keep it together." I'll be anxious to see which it is. Since stereotypical villains don't succeed in stories, and tightening your grip only makes people leave you, I'm guessing that Coach's grasp was symbolic of eventually being beaten by "the hero" in the end.

Now, whether that "hero" is Cochran or not is another discussion.

Ozzy's edit was ridiculous this episode. He's totally coming back at F5 - they couldn't have been any more obvious if they had submitted a title-card that read "Watch Ozzy return in 4 episodes." Rainbow? Coach's assurance? Ozzy's repeated vows? The long-haired guy standing on the boat, in shadow, during all of the commercials? And as this season's "hero," maybe he helps vanquish the "evil" Coach by siding with the people who (will have) risen up against him by that time (allowing Cochran to gain victory? ugh.)

Plus Ozzy finally realized at TC that Cochran actually did have a beef with him. "You kept writing my name down." I didn't see anything bullying by Ozzy during the first half of this season (and certainly writing someone's name down is not bullying), but this realization certainly has to help the rift between Ozzy and Cochran (possibly, again, setting up Cochran to receive Ozzy's vote for the $1M)

...and the “that’s how a wiener plays” quote really isn't that far of a stretch from "that's how a winner plays."

I still view Cochran as an undeserving winner, but it's becoming clearer that he will be the winner. Ugh.

In summation:
- Coach: villain who will begin to lose control
- Ozzy: totally coming back for one more boot
- Cochran: the million-dollar "wiener" (please don't invite him back)

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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings
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11-15-11, 04:17 AM (EST)
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77. "Jim (potential juror) assesses Cochran as 3rd place (at best)"
Jim
"Cochran's motive, in the history of Survivor, has played the single best third place game of all time. No question. How many people come in here playing for third is another question, but I don't need to go there. He's played the best third place game ever. There's nobody here that wouldn't take him.

There's 10 people here, including myself, that would love to have Cochran sitting next to him at the finale. Love it. No Savaii's going to vote for him, and no Upolu's going to vote for him. He's the best third place finisher of all time. Good for him."
_________

OK, so this is the opinion Jim holds as of Ep 9, that Cochran is playing to be the goat and he is a goat who really can't win. Kind of like Dreamz couldn't get a single vote. Is Jim just being bitter? Is he blind to a real possibility that players from either tribe might respect Cochran by the end, or is Jim's assessment dead on?

Personally, I think that Jim is right. If he is right, then Cochran is at best getting the edit of a third place finisher, not a winner's edit.

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11-15-11, 04:37 AM (EST)
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78. "RE: Jim (potential juror) assesses Cochran as 3rd place (at best)"
LAST EDITED ON 11-15-11 AT 04:40 AM (EST)

Talking about a F3 edit made me think of a classic argument on this board -- the great Rob Mariano can't finish 2nd (due to his edit) postulate (during ASS.

So I went and found it ... some of you might enjoy the trip down memory lane ...

"According to the editing, Rob can ONLY finish first or maybe third" by shakes the clown

and the follow-up to the "Rob wins" argument, the Amber wins and Rob is Final 3 theory:

"I'm almost ready to put the STC guarantee on the final 3....." by stc

Basic premise: there was not a snowball's chance that Rob's second place edit could actually mean that he came in second, because it wouldn't surprise anyone, and the win must have an element of surprise. (This was back in the day where EPM ruled.)

A spectacular crash and burn in the history of reading edits... very good arguments, just wrong. To be fair, not wrong that Rob made at least F3.

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stu45 6 desperate attention whore postings
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11-15-11, 10:46 AM (EST)
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79. "RE: Jim (potential juror) assesses Cochran as 3rd place (at best)"
It seems the edit is trying very hard to create some doubt that Cochran won’t win because he probably does and probably by a landslide. I bet if it wasn’t for last season’s undramtic finish (which the editors probably got chastised for) Cochran would have been shown in a more positive light throughout this season.
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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings
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11-15-11, 05:31 PM (EST)
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80. "RE: Jim (potential juror) assesses Cochran as 3rd place (at best)"
But Jim's opinion in the game was that Cochran won't get a single vote. The Savai'i have 5 votes -- unless a returnee makes it to the end-- that's enough to control who wins. Why would they vote for Cochran? To send the message that turncoats are rewarded with victory?

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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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11-15-11, 09:55 PM (EST)
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81. "RE: Jim (potential juror) assesses Cochran as 3rd place (at best)"
Thanks for bringing an old Shakes thread from archives.

As for this season, I am worried that you know exactly where Cochran finishes so I hesitate to respond.

Assuming the F3 hasn't been spoiled, I'll say this: S8 was Veruca's first season doing editing analysis. Needless to say, she learned us a thing or two since then. One thing we do know is that Morono would get a stellar edit no matter where he finishes. Cochran isn't the typical (read Terry Dietz) SEG favorite.

A better way to measure Cochran's edit would be think of Chris and Sash. Neither were SEG favorites but Chris did get a much better edit than New York's biggest bachelor. Even if Jeff hated Chris and had to apologize for doing such a poor job promoting his story, we saw the winning edit in Chris. Sash was ignored for most of the time he was in the original LaFlor. His story picked up a bit when he got Marty's idol but then it went down the drain when he was made to look ugly for letting Brenda get voted out.

If Cochran was a third place finisher, his edit would probably look a lot like Sash's but it has the substance and the density of Chris'. Why?

If Coach or Ozzy were the winners, they wouldn't need to have invisible opponents. The viewers would pull for them over newbies. Even Dawn wouldn't need to have Whitney, Edna, Albert, Rick and even Sophie be so insignificant. Cochran does. He needs this high visibility to justify a victory and he'd get this high visiblity ONLY if he wins.

I know you will object with Phillip's example. Phillip was an over the top, crazy character like Jeff loves 'em. This season, that's Brandon, not Cochran. Cochran is emotional but he isn't TV gold. He's not really funny most of the time.

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dabo 25344 desperate attention whore postings
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11-16-11, 01:43 AM (EST)
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82. "Just FYI"
As for this season, I am worried that you know exactly where Cochran finishes so I hesitate to respond. Let me settle that for you, most responses to that would themselves be spoilers in effect, so meh, quit fishing. This is a non-spoiler thread.

Not a spoiler, but also not relevant to the edit; I do not know if anyone here is directly influenced by it, but it is just unknowable if anyone is indirectly influenced by it by being influenced by someone else directly influenced by it, but--

On another site since early this season there has been a concerted effort to discredit Cochran on the basis of unPC sexist posts he supposedly made long ago (on another site), when he was much younger, even though no one can prove those posts ever existed. This on a site where many people make outrageous unPC posts often for no other reason than to bait other posters.


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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings
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11-16-11, 08:06 AM (EST)
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83. "RE: Jim (potential juror) assesses Cochran as 3rd place (at best)"
LAST EDITED ON 11-16-11 AT 08:08 AM (EST)

michel,
there is no boot list, and I absolutely do not know how Cochran finishes.
My question is legitimate. How can he win when people don't want to vote for him?

I said the same thing with Erinn in Tocantins, i.e., no matter how interesting her edit, in what scenario can she get enough votes to win? It wasn't going to happen. If she were going to be a finalist, it would be as loser finalist.

I see Cochran as a loser if he gets to F3.

No spoiler as to his finish.

There are people pretending to have spoilers this season, but the good ones are only week to week, not end game -- so as far as I'm concerned it is all open to conjecture.

I have not read whatever dabo is talking about; new to me. Interesting.

PS. At such point as I know how Cochran finishes, if I even do before the Finale, I will not be posting about him any more in this topic. So please stop insulting me with your I'm suspicious of your posts stuff.

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11-16-11, 12:15 PM (EST)
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84. "some John edit stuff"
First, I'm going to go ahead and apologize for never knowing exactly where in the thread to post my questions/thoughts. I'm still trying to figure out the ins/outs of this board and often have the feeling that I'm putting my stuff in the wrong place.


I fully admit that I really don't like the character of John (and it's the character, not the person since I don't know the guy) so I know that I'm most likely not seeing his edit "correctly". However, the logic side of my brain says that if John wins then Michel has pretty much laid out how we saw each step of the way. I could come back to this thread after the season and put check marks all over Michel's posts.

The emotional part of my brain still says there's no way that this character I hate can win this game. And the thing is, it's the editors who shaped the character and made him one that I can hardly stand to watch and I know I'm not alone in that.

Anyway, onto the questions for Michel or anyone who wants to answer:

One thing that has bugged me about John's edit from almost the beginning is his whole attitude about going to RI. From almost the beginning he's be shown to equate going to RI with going home because he has absolutely zero confidence that he could win a duel. What makes his "I'm going to lose" attitude even worse is that we (and he) know(s) that there have been duels that include a beanbag toss and tabletop shuffleboard and he STILL thinks he'd lose. My question is whether or not they'd edit him considering himself such a (duel/challenge) loser with no confidence he could win a carnival game if he had won? I know they've shown his confidence in his strategy game (even though he hasn't done much in the strategy realm) but, to me at least, it doesn't cancel out the other part. I know they had to show some of it because of the Ozzy goes to RI instead of John ep, but they could have toned down the other incidents of it if they had wanted to. And it seems like they would have if he was the winner. Thoughts?

My other thing is from the last ep. I saw the whole John in Coach's jacket/Rick's hat in a different way. To me it really reminded me of a kid who dresses up in daddy's clothes and busts in to the adult's dinner party yelling "look at me, look at me!" Meanwhile the adults look on and say "Aww, isn't he cute!" So overall it felt more like the U's were indulging John because they know it's good for them to keep him happy. I didn't see it as a good thing for John's edit. My question is whether or not you can see how that could be a valid interpretation of the scene. I think it's one of those scenes that won't be able to be labeled good or bad for John until we know how he finishes.

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dabo 25344 desperate attention whore postings
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11-16-11, 12:37 PM (EST)
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85. "RE: some John edit stuff"
I like the little kid interpretation about Cochran swaggering in Coach drag. Thing is that I very much think it was done with prior approval from Coach, and others were probably in on the gag as well. This could be a turning point for Cochran, adopting a more confident attitude he may become more confident in himself. Tactically, he adopted the entertainer role, which is a good thing on Survivor since, as the game drags on, they have very little to do most of the time except sit around and talk about how hungry they are.
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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11-16-11, 06:15 PM (EST)
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88. "RE: some John edit stuff"
"One thing that has bugged me about John's edit from almost the beginning is his whole attitude about going to RI."

That's a good point. We don't have a lot of prior data to interpret Cochran's attitude towards RI. The way I see it is that you don't want to get voted out so it's understandable. Both returning players last year got U-turned right back out of the game even if they won the challenges on RI.

Maybe Cochran's fear of going to RI is telling us that he will indeed go there, face Ozzy who told him he could win if he believes in himself and then Cochran beats Ozzy!

As for the coat scene, I go by what the players say: Coach said it made Cochran a new man (remember Cochran told us he couldn't be a new Ozzy, a new Keith or a new Jim but he could be a new Cochran) and Edna said he was incorporated in the tribe. There weren't any negative comments so we shouldn't interpret it negatively no matter what our personal feelings are. When someone does something foolish and the editors want us to laugh at him, they find the right reaction shots and comments to make us see it that way.

And OFG, we read what happened to Corvis so I was just being cautious.

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dabo 25344 desperate attention whore postings
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11-16-11, 08:01 PM (EST)
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90. "RE: some John edit stuff"
With the exception of Ozzy with his Messiah plan, none of them ever wanted to go to RI. Even last season when Russell thought the RI twist would be a "vacation" way to play the game, he didn't go there voluntarily.

I'd like to think part of Cochran's thoughts on RI is that it really isn't the game of Survivor he wanted to play. The duels are much simpler than the challenges (especially considering a couple of the more brutally exhausting challenges they had late in the game last season), but RI really isn't the game itself. It is existing, and really doesn't seem like any fun at all.

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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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11-16-11, 08:43 PM (EST)
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91. "RE: some John edit stuff"
I'll buy that.
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stu45 6 desperate attention whore postings
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11-17-11, 03:56 PM (EST)
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97. "RE: some John edit stuff"
I think the editors have really stepped up their game this season – it’s crazy that so many people have such a different opinion of Cochran. My take: He hated his original tribe, yet was able to established strong enough relationships with them that they felt like they could chastise him for a mistake then turn around a couple of days later and ask him to be a double agent with the other tribe? Cochran outplayed every one of his Savaii tribe mates and is now going to do the same with Upolo. In his confessionals he acknowledges what could go wrong – players need to think of all possibilities in order to make the correct decisions. The fact that Jim, Keith, Ozzy, and Whitney thought they could use him as a puppet and were willing to risk their survivor life on him while being aware that he goes to Harvard Law School / big fan of survivor is an amazing feat.

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VerucaSalt 1577 desperate attention whore postings
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11-16-11, 03:22 PM (EST)
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86. "RE: Jim (potential juror) assesses Cochran as 3rd place (at best)"
OFG, I do love your postings and very appropriate for my fleeting words since I really do not want to suddenly jump into the fray here (rest assured dabo, if you PM me, I will start a third thread - who would have thought that my thread would stand the test of time - credit naturally goes to the level headed, objective and sound thinking here)

It's not how you start, but how you finish

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Booted 156 desperate attention whore postings
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11-16-11, 03:39 PM (EST)
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87. "RE: Jim (potential juror) assesses Cochran as 3rd place (at best)"
Veruca:

So - Maybe Brandon's comment of "It's not how you start, but how you finish" was really ment for John? That may be the story we are all missing - how does John finish...

Boot Ed

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Outfrontgirl 6830 desperate attention whore postings
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11-16-11, 06:39 PM (EST)
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89. "RE: Jim (potential juror) assesses Cochran as 3rd place (at best)"
Hi Veruca, I and WE love YOUR postings.
Glad to see you are still around!

I think we will need a third thread all right.

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11-17-11, 02:05 PM (EST)
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92. "Ozzy"
At the risk of being bullied AGAIN (yes, BULLIED because that is exactly what some posters here have done to ME), I’m going to lay out the Ozzy edit that everyone is insisting be ignored so that I have a record of it here.

I don’t know any “winner” spoiler or even if Ozzy makes it back in from RI a 2nd time, but it is ludicrous the way people are ignoring/diminishing the positive edit he’s getting since episode 6.

I’m not posting or reading here much anymore because I'm over being taunted about my alleged "Ozzy fandom." Let me make this clear: I’m not some ridiculous Ozzy “superfan.” Yes, I like Ozzy, but I hadn’t even thought about him until this season started, and I'm certainly not blind to his faults -- his edit the first 5 & ½ episodes was terrible (arrogant, lazy), but like the butterfly they kept showing for Savaii, he came out of his little self-involved cocoon & has emerged as a self-less, loyal, honorable player.

This was a season that was promoted as "up and down" & Ozzy & Coach have been being contrasted against each other the entire time and Ozzy & John have been contrasted the entire time as well. First half, Coach & John's edits were up, now their edits are going down; first half, Ozzy's edit was down, now it is going up. One of the key quotes this season, according to many here, is “It’s not how you start, it’s how you finish.” That only applies to Coach & John & doesn’t apply to Ozzy, why? His actions these last 2 weeks are a radical departure from the Ozzy of old – self-less, self-sacrificing -- again, like the butterfly, he is not even recognizable from his previous state. And who has proved they haven’t changed at all? Coach & John. Although Ozzy didn’t start that way, Ozzy is now playing the game Coach pretends to be playing: honest, loyal, a leader & unafraid to meet his opponents head on. And he is playing the game that John is "physically & emotionally incapable" of playing -- that is, playing to win instead of playing merely not to lose.

Further, the biggest fallacy of this season is that Coach started off badly just because his tribe left him initially at the challenge while Ozzy’s pretended to embrace him. Coach was part of the Upolu 5 before the end of the first day. Ozzy was the one who was on the outs – his tribe was working to weaken him from day 1 to ensure he had no allies come merge so they could oust him at their first safe opportunity. John was never 6th on Savaii once merge came (the other big fallacy of this season); Ozzy was. Keith’s day after video confirms that.

Also, to paraphrase Ozzy, there’s another part of this game everyone seems to be forgetting called “redemption.” CBS ran repeated promos of Ozzy saying "I need redemption" before the season started. Survivor has been touting this RI twist as a way a “threat” player who is booted can come back in & win. That didn’t happen last year because the twist was new & no one really factored it into their strategy. This year Ozzy did factor it into his game play – there is even an EW clip of him (I posted it in some thread) at the start of the game talking about using RI as a way to win (connect with people going to jury 1 on 1 there before sending them packing then getting back in & winning his way to F3 where’d he’d have all their votes – his “master plan”). And before anyone says “that interview was before the game started,” well, duh. But Survivor & EW selected what clips they were going to post after the game was over. If Ozzy comes back from RI & wins, Survivor can say “look, the great RI twist worked” and they can retire the stupid thing. If the RI twist didn’t work (again), I’d doubt there would have been such heavy promotion of it this season, coupled with all the promos reminding everyone that Ozzy is the “winningest player ever.”

Further unlike the edit Matt got on RI, who was shown hating it there & "at peace ready to accept God's will if he stayed or not" Ozzy is thriving on RI – just like he said, he doesn't have to worry about being back stabbed, he's fishing (and btw, that reef diving is extremely difficult, definitely not "middle age Ozzy”) & gets scores of coconuts at one time. Meanwhile, over at Te Tuna, just as Ozzy said, they are hungry (Rick has no fish in the net & John is sitting on his butt wishing for coconuts like they are going to fall from the sky) and Coach is worried about who he can trust.

Plus, that aerial shot of Ozzy on the palm tree was INSANE! Know who else got aerial shots like that? Yul, Earl Cole & Bob the Builder (all winners). Not to mention the shot of him with the rainbow saying “You never know what can happen in this game, but I’ll never stop fighting as long as I’m alive.” Yeah, that’s ALL nothing. Nothing to see here.

And, btw, now that Ozzy is on RI, he’s gone from the animal association of a butterfly to the magical sea turtle – symbol of good luck & prosperity in Polynesia. Know the last Survivor associated with the sea turtle? Natalie White (winner).

Ozzy says he is coming back from RI (with confidence, not cockiness, because he has proven he can back up his words) & why shouldn’t he be right about this when’s he’s been right about everything else this season? Ozzy has been trying to “coach” (yes, pun intended) Savaii on how to win this entire time – to all of Savaii at first 3 boots: we need to get out the weakest challenge link (John) to keep the tribe strong for merge (and we know he was right about that one); to Dawn day 1 "whatever negative thing in your head that is holding you back, you have to get it out and say you can stay in this game;" after the Savaii comeback tribal IC win with the wheelbarrow "see, even when it looks like you are losing, if you stay calm, you can win" and to John when it looked like he was going to RI to duel Christine "you just have to go in there with confidence & psyche her out by saying you are winning this thing." They all refused to listen to him and now he is giving a perfect demonstration of his words of advice. Unlike Coach (and John) who can talk the talk, Ozzy is showing he can walk the walk.

And I’d like to also note, in the VERY next episode after everyone was so eager to jump on the “John was bullied” bandwagon (taking the word of someone who was a known liar & 2 people we’ve actually seen being bullies this season about it – i.e., Coach & Brandon) when Ozzy asked John straight out "What did I ever do to you?" John answered "You wanted to vote me out because I was weak," did ANYONE acknowledge that John just admitted that he wasn't bullied? *crickets* People are sticking with their blind fandom of John, despite his OTT “joke” edit -- his dressing up as a caricature of the Dragon Slayer & prancing around like a court jester – his own description of himself – while the arrogant “king” (Coach) looks on with amusement & approval, should have been the final nail in the “John wins” argument.

I don’t know that Ozzy can overcome the odds & get into F3, but I do know based on their obvious edits – especially as contrasted with the true transformational “hero” edit Ozzy is now getting -- that neither Coach nor John is winning this thing and I’m already preparing my “Told you so song” about it. Preview here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IV4sB7O97ro


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baddove 29 desperate attention whore postings
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11-17-11, 02:24 PM (EST)
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93. "RE: Ozzy"
The editors are giving Ozzy a good edit for 3 reasons.

1. They need a decoy winner. If Ozzy was not being shown as Mr. Winner, we would all be bored watching the Upolo 3 cruise to the finish. Creating doubt creates interest.

2. Ozzy is getting the Fan favorite edit.

3. Ozzy is simply good Tv..

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11-17-11, 02:46 PM (EST)
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94. "RE: Ozzy"
LAST EDITED ON 11-17-11 AT 03:00 PM (EST)

Could be, but so what? Even if what you write is true, that doesn't refute the main point that the two players he is being contrasted with -- Coach & John -- don't win. Ozzy is walking the walk on what a Survivor winner "looks like" regardless of how he does. With obvious contrasts with Coach & John's edits (who, in comparison, are being weighed, measured & found wanting), Ozzy's edit is at least showing Coach & John cannot win. I specifically said I don't know if Ozzy does win -- I'm saying everyone is insisting on diminishing Ozzy's positive edit & what it means -- just like you just did.

eta: to take out some OTT snark.

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11-17-11, 03:42 PM (EST)
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96. "I will add this though"
The edit has shown us for a long time that a Savaii wins. John -- by his own admission & actions -- is not a Savaii; he is Upolu (he wears Coach's jacket, he sits down with the "family" to eat rather than play in the IC, he learns Coach's fake Ta'i Chi b.s. at the Dragon Slayer's feet). That leaves only 2 Savaii's with edits that can possibly support a win: Ozzy or Dawn.
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11-17-11, 10:11 PM (EST)
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111. "RE: I will add this though"
I've been on a similar wavelength for a while (Cochran = evil; a disasterous wiener/whiner/"winner"), and thoroughly enjoyed all of the evidence you presented... I nodded, smiled, had a very good time.

...but this last part "The edit has shown us for a long time that a Savaii wins" kinda sealed the deal for me. They HAVE been telegraphing that a Savaii wins, and there's really only two of them left (assuming Dawn/Whitney both get defeated by the all-powerful Oz)... and I can't stomach that Cochran is the final survivor.

Love it.

1. Create doubt that Ozzy can win? - Check.
2. Create a hero to stand up against the blatant evil edits of Coach & Cochran (and Brandon's kinda evil, too) - check
3. Outwit (purposefully go to RI), outplay (duh), outlast - check, check, and maybe
4. Absurd edit (in a good way) - check
5. Four+ built-in jury votes, if he makes it that far - check

The only drawback is that he actually ISN'T playing the game, really... he's surviving, sure, but not a part of "the game." But with the 4 Savaii, he's most of the way to getting all the votes...

I'm still tying my prediction-horse to the Albert-cart, but I'd be psyched and pleasantly surprised with an Ozzy win.

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11-17-11, 10:24 PM (EST)
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113. "RE: I will add this though"
The only drawback is that he actually ISN'T playing the game, really

Always glad to welcome another into the secret society. But you are forgetting what Ozzy told us playing Survivor is in episode 1 (which FloPo was so good to remind us) which is:

That ability to harness your passion and to stand up to what everyone says is impossible and say I can do it!

Who says he isn't playing Survivor -- at least Survivor as it is with this stupid RI twist that does give a path to a win without the "traditional" requirement that you get the people you voted out to hand you the million. But that's a flaw of the twist, not the way Ozzy is playing it.

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11-17-11, 02:47 PM (EST)
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95. "RE: Ozzy"
I agree Ozzy is good TV. I'm an admitted Ozzy "groupie". Would I watch if he is voted out, probably but I wouldn't care as much. To me he is the ultimate survivor. I relate to his blind trust in people and know he doesn't have it in him to scheme.


Go Ozzy - go Ozzy - go Ozzy

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11-17-11, 04:01 PM (EST)
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98. "RE: Ozzy"
GREAT observations Kiki!! I'm with you all of the way. I also remember an aerial shot of Robfadda on the Gibraltar-like rock last season. Survivor doesn't show aerials of just any one and this is the second episode where we have seen Ozzy at the top of that Palm Tree. While he is enjoying peace on R.I., the Upolos will be tormented by gameplay. While he swims and fishes and climbs trees for coconuts - Ozzy stays strong, while the Upolos come up empty-handed - they will weaken.

Ozzy is the ultimate Survivor, and unlike Coach, who has resorted to instilling fear in his tribemates, Ozzy is the one who coaches on how to survive.

Great stuff!

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11-18-11, 11:05 PM (EST)
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131. "RE: Ozzy"
I'm so with you Scarlett.


Go Ozzy - go Ozzy - go Ozzy

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11-17-11, 04:13 PM (EST)
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99. "RE: Ozzy"
WOW! Brilliant post, Kiki. I don't know if Ozzy can make the final three or not, he has to win every single duel or challenge to make it there, but if anyone can do it, he CAN.

John is an integral character to the story that is being presented to us this season, no doubt about that. While some really like him, others do not. I see him clearly as a villain. When John started calling Ozzy names behind his back, as you noted...middle aged Ozzy, whiney little beyotch, etc.... he became a villain, at least to Ozzy fans, of which I think "Survivor et al" is one. John is someone that foils the plans of others. Could the villain win the game? I think maybe he could....was Brian Heidik a villain? Was Pavarti a villain? But, the hero could win the game too.

The editing is leading me to a Savaii win....but I could be dead wrong, just as I was convinced that Ozzy had won in Cook Islands. But, the thing about editing is that it is what each of us sees. There really is no right or wrong. And, we all get our favorites for our own specific reasons. Regardless, right or wrong, I whole-heartedly at this point support your case for an Ozzy win.

Episode 1: "I need REDEMPTION". Title of the episode, spoken from the heart by Ozzy. Then, as Kiki noted, when Dawn was having her meltdown and Ozzy told her....whatever negative thing is in your head that is holding you back, you have to get it out and say you can stay in this game!! By the end of the episode, he speaks at TC with the quote I had noted, what it takes to win the game....That ability to harness your passion and to stand up to what everyone says is impossible and say I can do it! Ozzy is acting like a "Coach", as Kiki notes. Throughout this game he is teaching us all what it takes to win the game. These are just the first examples.

He also identified Cochran as the one that needed to be voted out in the first episode. Now, in retrospect, what do you think the entire Savaii team wished that they had done in Episode one? He tried to teach them again at RI when he said to Jim, "I don't want to say I told you so.....so, I won't. "

In most stories the winner has to learn and evolve. Ozzy was edited as lazy, arrogant, and falling back into his old ways for the first half of this season. But, with the blindside that happened regarding Elyse, he's emerged as a new player. After a bit of introspection Ozzy came back to his tribe and he apologized to each of them for his actions like a man....then he emerged as one that has his eyes wide open, one that became committed to his tribemates, and one that was willing to make big moves in this game to further them all. And, as Cochran and Ozzy and Jiffy have all told us, Survivor loves big moves. Jiffy also told us he loved Ozzy's big move because he was playing the game as someone who wanted to WIN.....and we all know that Jiffy tells us ALOT! As Kiki notes, Ozzy is playing the game that Coach pretends to be playing, he's being honest and unafraid to meet his opponents head on. I couldn't agree more with her observations.

In Jeff Probst's tout last night, he said "it all depends on Cochran now. He is number 7, he's the next one to go. He has to make a big move. The question is, can he pull it off?" I think not. I think Ozzy told us that you have to make big moves in order to win, and we all saw Ozzy do just that when he sacrificed himself to go to RI, in order to save them all, especially Cochran. Ozzy has what it takes to make a big move, to be a hero, Cochran "doesn't want to be a hero"....

At that pivotal episode, after Ozzy was blindsided with the Elyse boot, they had the wheelbarrow challenge where they were losing. But at the reward Ozzy told them....The most important thing to win is to just stay calm....even if you get behind, just stay calm and you can come back and BOOM, you can win! Another lesson taught by Ozzy, just stay calm and you can win the game of Survivor.....at least that's what it said to me. Then Ozzy went on to have another very significant confessional....A reward like this really brought us all back together. I really made me want someone (see Cochran - I think this is inserted in here to cast some doubt on Ozzy) from this tribe to win the million. I don't care if it's me....well, I do care if it's me, I want it to be me, but if it's not me, I want it to be some from this tribe to win the million...This confessional spelled out a Savaii win for me. This is why I am not drinking the Upolu koolaid, like Cochran is . As I have pointed out, I could be dead wrong, but it's the story that I am getting from the editing....fwiw.

Another interesting observation from that episode was when Ozzy had climbed up the high rock wall and dove head first into the water, Cochran said, "I am not physically or emotionally capable of doing that". That confessional was very interesting to me....does it foreshadow that he's not capable of being a hero, he's not capable of making big moves, and he's not capable of winning Survivor?

Another lesson that Ozzy pointed out to them was specifically said to Cochran, when they all wanted him to own it and go to RI, he told him what he had to do to win...As noted by Kiki, you just have to go in there with confidence and psych her out by saying you are winning this thing. When Cochran couldn't and wouldn't take the advice, Ozzy is living by example on RI. I totally agree with your statement that unlike Coach and John who can talk the talk, Ozzy is showing that he can actually walk the walk.

Now that Ozzy is at RI he is embracing it. He does not see it as a death sentence, an impossible task to outlast to the end, but a reprieve, a vacation, his "mini-paradise". He is catching the biggest fish ever, he's loving life within the reef, he's shown getting multiple coconuts with ease, while the Upolu tribe is seen not being able to catch any fish, and not finding anymore coconuts, and in sharp contrast to Ozzy, who is eating like a king and getting stronger, they are getting weaker and starving. This sharp contrast is shown for a reason. Ozzy is going to thrive...The beautiful aerial shot from atop the palm fronds reminded me of shots that they did of Earl as he stood on the top of the hill in Fiji....King of the Island! Kiki points out that Earl, Yul, and Bob the builder also got beautiful aerial shots like these, and I think that Boston Rob did as well last season....definitely gives me hope that Ozzy may pull it out...We also see his opponents embracing him as he defeats them. We are getting to see what each and every juror will do once they leave RI....first Jim, then Keith. Then Dawn as she comes, and Whitney. Surely, Ozzy would win all of their votes should he make it to the finals.

There, I have made my case, which is exactly as Kiki sees it. It could be dead wrong if Ozzy never makes it to the finals, but, I definitely don't see how any of them could beat Ozzy when he comes back to the game. Every challenge that presents will be a do or die for Ozzy, and that is most likely what he expected all along. I am not counting him out just yet. Regardless, Ozzy is a big part of this story that is Survivor: South Pacific.

Finally, it doesn't matter if each little paragraph or point is dissected, refuted, negated, chewed up and spit out. It's all good. It's what I see happening. It's a picture that this season has painted for me. Right or wrong, it's my vantage point. Clearly, John, Coach, and certainly Ozzy are integral to this story. But as Kiki mentioned, which I LOVED, btw, is that it's not how you start, but how you finish. Coach has controlled the whole game and started off strong, Cochran was featured through the entire whole show, Ozzy was downright lazy, arrogant, and smitten in the first half. I, too, see Coach and Cochran taking a serious downturn, while Ozzy's stock is rising. Can he peak at the right time? I think so.

Thanks for posting Kiki, as I said, I thought it was a brilliant post.

PS. **WAVES*** to Veruca!

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11-17-11, 07:53 PM (EST)
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100. "RE: Ozzy"
Regarding the "it's not how you start, it's how you finish" quote, that can apply to any one of Albert, Sophie, Rick or Edna as well because they didn't start off big, but are ending on a better note as of the moment. Only one of them will win.

It will *not* be either Ozzy or Cochran winning, there's just no way with all the hurdles and the at-times negative editing both have received, plus we're seeing from the comments made on the Insider how they're being perceived by the Upolu tribe members. This is going to be an Upolu win this season.

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11-17-11, 09:48 PM (EST)
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110. "RE: Ozzy"
Agreed with you on that. Albert, Edna, Rick and Sophie didn't start off big but at least one of them is getting a good edit right now. And that one is -- Sophie.

Did you see that she got an uptick in her edit by winning not just one but two Immunity Challenges and in her private conversation with Albert where she presumably talked him out of going after Edna this soon? I think her edit is picking up the most now of the four that didn't start out with big edits.

Cochran won't win. Only Dawn might even think of voting for him if he ever got to the Final 3 and considering how tight Upolu is, he's more likely to be voted out early. Then, what with his lack of challenge prowess (which we saw again), if he gets to Redemption Island, whoever is left (most likely Ozzy) will cream him and send him to the jury.

As for Ozzy, his willingness to go to Redemption Island no doubt was meant to be selfless (and probably was, in terms of ensuring that he could come back at the merge) but it was also shown as a risky move that could backfire -- and it did. He's more likely to return to the game at the Final 5 than Cochran, but I have my doubts that he'll get to the Final 3, let alone win. He's more of a decoy winner in my eyes.


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11-17-11, 08:16 PM (EST)
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101. "RE: Ozzy"
I'm certainly not ready to post but, since the helicopter shot is being discussed, I thought it would be important to show that it isn't always the winner that gets it. Remember this from
tocantins?

or this:


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11-17-11, 08:39 PM (EST)
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102. "RE: Ozzy"
Good point, michel. How could we not remember all of the special things that they did with Coach. I think I can recall that Matty in Gabon also got some special shots as well. Well, at least we can see that perhaps more winners are given aerials than not? More likely it is to favor the edit of the player that they are featuring. Interesting in Tocantins that Coach received all of those aerial shots where JT received none. At least none that I can recall...
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11-17-11, 09:30 PM (EST)
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104. "RE: Ozzy"
"at least we can see that perhaps more winners are given aerials than not?"

Certainly, yes. Natalie and Parvati also had their helicopter shots.

I'm sure you saw that there was another helicopter shot in this episode?

Parvati (who was with Nathalie B. and Alexis as they left the old Airai camp) and Natalie (who shared the screen with Mick and Brett as she walked on the beach) had confessionals during their shot. Cochran had the confessional following the Tai Chi demonstration.

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11-17-11, 09:38 PM (EST)
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107. "RE: Ozzy"
Thanks for showing us how often they use aerial shots (more than I realized). But the ones that we remember are the ones of the winners. The camera tends to linger on the scene longer and/or it's more of a close-up.
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11-17-11, 09:34 PM (EST)
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105. "RE: Ozzy"
LAST EDITED ON 11-17-11 AT 09:35 PM (EST)

ooops, double post. Sorry

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11-17-11, 09:44 PM (EST)
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108. "LMFAO!"
LAST EDITED ON 11-17-11 AT 09:46 PM (EST)

Actually, FloPo, and I do hate to disagree with you, but michel comparing Ozzy's edit to Coach's Tocantins edit is not a good point; in fact, it is laughable & cannot be taken seriously.

It isn't *only* about the aerial shots -- it is the context. Take, for example, the shot michel posts of John on the beach doing Coach Chi shot -- John's down below, not on "top" of anything. The winner's aerial shots I referenced were ALL with them on top of things (Yul, on top of shipwreck on Exile island, Earl on top of mountain, Bob the Builder on top of mountain on Exile) just like Ozzy ON TOP of the palm tree. Plus, you know, there is rest of the edit which, as I noted, is being completely ignored.

eta: for typos.

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11-17-11, 10:44 PM (EST)
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114. "RE: LMFAO!"
I feel like I am being bullied!!

The winner's aerial shots I referenced were ALL with them on top of things"

Like I said, Parvati and Natalie had aerial shots to support their edit so they weren't ALL on top of things. You can't pick and choose.

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11-17-11, 10:52 PM (EST)
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115. "RE: LMFAO!"
LAST EDITED ON 11-17-11 AT 10:54 PM (EST)

Doesn't feel good, does it?

And of course I can't pick & choose -- only you can.

The fact that I immediately thought of aerial shots of Earl on the mountain, Yul on the ship & Bob on the mountain on Exile --- you know, THE ICONIC SHOTS -- when I saw Ozzy on top of the palm is completely irrelevant because there was absolutely no similarity between them & no "rest of the edit" to support it. I had to also think of every other aerial shot ever shown on Survivor that were merely "establishment shots" or that made the player looks foolish, etc. Hence, the connection I made has absolutely no validity whatsoever & everything else that I wrote about Ozzy's edit is completely negated.

Seriously, you compared Ozzy edit to Coach's in Tocantins --I totally "get" the similarity there.

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11-17-11, 11:16 PM (EST)
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116. "RE: LMFAO!"
"Doesn't feel good, does it?"

Made me laugh so, yes, I enjoyed it.

What is an iconic shot? When I saw Natalie walking on the beach, saying she had to choose between playing with her heart or her head, talking about the differences between Brett and Russell, I thought it was iconic.

Also, this aerial shot was iconic in many people's opinion:

Iconic and erotic... Can't beat that!

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11-18-11, 01:23 AM (EST)
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117. "RE: LMFAO!"
Oh, I gang up on michel several times a season, he's used to it.

Glad to see you back. I do think Ozzy is getting a heroic edit, despite a bad start. And I thought it notable that between Ozzy, Jim and Whitney, Ozzy handled the Cochran backstab most maturely. But heroes can be defeated.

His Redemption Island plan, to win all the duels and be friendly to everyone who comes to RI, feed them well and send them on their way, is without a doubt the only game that can be made of RI. It isn't really Survivor but it is what he is stuck with now.

Not relevant to the edit per se, but the RI twist has been done in other countries (though repeated in no other country besides the US), and the best an RI returning champ has done in any game is finish runner-up. How does a returning RI champ get votes from jury members who previously voted him out to Redemption Island?

The people who voted Ozzy out the second time this season (the first time I won't count since he went voluntarily) were: Albert, Brandon, Coach, Cochran, Dawn, Edna, Rick, Sophie and Whitney.

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11-18-11, 02:57 AM (EST)
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118. "RE: LMFAO!"
LAST EDITED ON 11-18-11 AT 03:27 AM (EST)

The original heli shot of players on high happened in Survivor Africa,. King of the world shots ... Boran went on to dominate and fill the top 4 slots.

Preview caps:

Spec by Blows folks on what it all meant:
http://community.realitytvworld.com/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/rtvw2/community/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=1656&forum=DCForumID2&archive=yes

CBS recap:

With the day to themselves, the Boran tribe climbed to the top of a majestic mountaintop overlooking the land that has been their home for the last 13 days. At peace with themselves, gazing out across the landscape, Ethan put the day's events into his own words: "The tribe's happy, I'm happy, and we are all having fun. It was just so pleasant; it was like, we are here. We are in Africa!"

Heli shot on beach does not count.

Not all perches on rocks are winners.
Phillip went and sat on the rocks last season.
Earl and Dreamz climbed the mountain in Ep 1, more significant.

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11-18-11, 03:15 AM (EST)
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119. "RE: LMFAO!"
Hi, kiki. I definitely don't want to pile on you, but when I saw Ozzie's Palm Tree Stand, my first thought - and only thought, for a long time - was of Terry Dietz, who lost to Yul, with Danielle at his side. I've been seeing Ozzie's edit as Jeff Probst's love for a certain Survivor Archetype - one that he wants to promote. I did think of Bob-the Builder in Gabon, but that wasn't until I drafted my first-ever posting here. I think the "King of the Hill" shots cited by you, me, and others, are merely Jeff's way to promote the Survivor Archetype and intrigue couch-potato travelers.

I played King on the Hill as kid, as the only girl, and a very short chubby girl at that. I won at a rate of 1 win to 6 tries, but by using a very different strategy, one more appropriate for non-athletic types.

I post this at some risk, as I have not finished reading the thread. If a cease-&-desist order/request has gone out, please...carry on! Best, (:>)

If Ozzie wins, I'll be okay with that...or anyone else left. Even Cochran; he still has time to pull up closer to Russell Hantz.

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11-18-11, 03:38 AM (EST)
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122. "RE: LMFAO!"
Hi Delurker:

As FloPo pointed out, different people bring different perspectives to what they see/what strikes them most in edits. What you thought of re: Ozzy in the palm tree doesn't invalidate what I thought of upon seeing it. Sharing your different perspective on it isn't "piling on."

And please note, that shot is only 1 small aspect of what both FloPo & I wrote about re: Ozzy's edit -- disputing it's "meaningfulness" really doesn't invalidate everything else we've noted about his edit, IMO.

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11-17-11, 09:30 PM (EST)
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103. "RE: Ozzy"
Great post Kiki. Like you and FloPo, I don't know if Ozzy wins, but if anyone can come back from redemption, Ozzy can. He will have to win 2 immunity challenges in a row - a tall order even for him! But it is important not to count him out yet just because he is on Redemption Island. His story is not over yet and I look forward to seeing where it leads. He is definitely an end game player in my mind.

Whether he makes F3 or not, I think he is being edited like the Ozzy from Cook Islands: we will love him no matter what place he ends up (coughfanfavoritecough!)

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11-17-11, 09:35 PM (EST)
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106. "RE: Ozzy"
There are some things I agree with you on:

1. Ozzy is made for Redemption Island.

2. Coach and Cochran probably won't win.

Unfortunately, while Ozzy might be made for being a survivor of the elements, Survivor is first and foremost a strategic and/or social game. Ozzy's forte are challenges -- not strategy. He's decent at the social game but I've seen others who were better than him. Thus, while I think Ozzy will come back from Redemption Island at the Final 5, I'm not sure he will make it to the Final 3.

I think Ozzy is going to be more of a decoy winner than a true one and that the real winner will come from Upolu (but won't be Coach, you're right about that). Still, I could be wrong on that. We'll just have to wait and see.

Oh and I'm sorry if I ever sounded like I was "bullying" you.


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11-17-11, 09:47 PM (EST)
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109. "RE: Ozzy"
Actually, Belle, you are not one of those to whom I was referring. So, no worries about that.
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11-17-11, 10:12 PM (EST)
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112. "One more thing"
Unfortunately, while Ozzy might be made for being a survivor of the elements, Survivor is first and foremost a strategic and/or social game. Ozzy's forte are challenges -- not strategy. He's decent at the social game but I've seen others who were better than him. Thus, while I think Ozzy will come back from Redemption Island at the Final 5, I'm not sure he will make it to the Final 3.

re: bold part: First off, that's why the whole RI "twist" sucks (if Matt had made it back in & won his way to F3 no way was the jury not voting for him even though he would have not voted a single one of them out, which is what Survivor is supposed to be about). But that's a separate issue, as we are stuck with this stupid twist. For the RI twist to be "successful" the returnee would have to win his way to the F3, no doubt. So, I don't see a lack of strategic game as too much of a problem for my reading of Ozzy's edit.

Additionally, he could argue it was his "strategy" given his natural abilities/inclinations with being "honest & trusting" or, as he stated last night, "When we get to F3 we'll see who back stabbed who & who took the high road.

As far at the social game, Ozzy's is still playing it, but 1 on 1 (where he is more comfortable) by "making you a nice fish & sending you on your way." We saw Keith & Jim hugging him & wishing him luck & they captioned Keith saying (to make sure we didn't miss it) "Win this for us, bro."

One other point I didn't mention in my OP -- anyone else notice the emphasis on Ozzy having no one to cheer for him, while it was specifically noted that Jim & Keith had people cheering them? That couldn't possibly be some set up for a dramatic story line about the guy who no one wants to come back in coming back in.

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11-18-11, 03:26 AM (EST)
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120. "RE: Ozzy"
Totally agreed, Belle Book. Ozzie is a survivor of the elements. But I still think of non-winner Terry Dietz. There is no possible way to ignore an Ozzie-in-His-Element/Challenge Dominator. There was no way to ignore or overlook a Terry-King-of Exile-Islands/Challenge Dominator. Very good drama and pictorials, both.
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11-18-11, 03:36 AM (EST)
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121. "Sophie power"
As much as I loved all the points made by Kiki and FlowerPower, I am afraid that Ozzy is the Savai'i who could but ultimately couldn't ...

I would like to see him triumph It would be a real good story.

I think Sophie's uptick has been very noticeable. Between her and Albert, she got the first episode attention and he got the shaft. I set a lot of weight on Ep 1 and the lack of confessionals in Ep 1 for Albert I thought a sure sign.

It feels to me like they didn't emphasize Sophie that much, but she was always playing well and playing strong. Now she has been in the driver's seat. She decided whether to let 3 Savai'i have a shot last episode, and said no, overruling Albert. She doesn't want to make big splashy premature moves.

The guys want to make big moves this season, and they fall flat on their faces.
Jim, Ozzy, Brandon, Albert (held in check) ...

Has anyone considered that the moral is ... you don't need to make big moves? You just need to gently guide the game to the conclusion in which you win?

We got a winner's confessional from Sophie this episode. I can't remember now what she said in Ep 1.

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11-18-11, 03:38 AM (EST)
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123. "RE: Sophie power"
PS. Ozzy is definitely getting the Fan Favorite push. Last season they gave it to Rob, so the winner can get it, but to me this looks like consolation prize for Ozzy.

Hey, I really hope he makes it, but the odds are long.

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11-18-11, 03:41 AM (EST)
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124. "RE: Sophie power"
LAST EDITED ON 11-18-11 AT 03:42 AM (EST)

Has anyone considered that the moral is ... you don't need to make big moves? You just need to gently guide the game to the conclusion in which you win?

Why yes, I would say I noted that back in post #11. Key quote:

Thinking along these lines, I went back & looked up that poem that Semhar recited before her duel (it always struck me as odd that they showed all of that because we already had her reciting her poetry in episode 1) and one of the last lines was: "I'll never understand how men like you can cause so much damage, or even worse, how women like myself can stand it". Another clue that it's a female winner after the men destroy each other?

http://community.realitytvworld.com/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/rtvw2/community/dcboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=7777&forum=DCForumID2&omm=11

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11-18-11, 09:35 AM (EST)
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125. "RE: Sophie power"
Interesting thoughts, as always, OFG! When you notice things....I notice!

Sophie did have an interesting role this season. In fact I came away thinking that she really is playing along with Coach all the way. It appears to me that she wants to go to the end with Coach. To me, while Sophie and Albert seem tied together, I think that Sophie will not be disappointed to see Albert get cut at some point.

She is being edited as the voice of reason, OR, as Coach's loyal minion. For some reason it appears to me that Sophie doesn't see Edna as the problem that Albert does, in other words if Edna ends up sitting in the finals with Sophie, she's not concerned about that, whereas Albert seems bent on taking Edna out, because if she is there, he fears Coach will win.

I got the impression that the editing wanted us to see Sophie as the swing vote that would determine the outcome at TC regarding who to boot. I didn't see it that way. What spoke more to me, was Coach THREATENING them all. That is what spoke louder to me. So, I saw that it wasn't Sophie's call, it was still Coach's.

While Sophie seems like a reasonable person who keeps her wit, I don't really see that she has much of a story this season other than narrator. And, if she were to end up the winner, I think I would be disappointed in that we didn't see her more. Sure, she's been at the right place at the right time, and knows when to keep her mouth shut. And, let's face it, she saved the Upolu's last night by winning that last IC....I was so hoping that Whitney could pull it off, but it was not to be.

In response to your question about her in episode 1, here is what I wrote about her one confessional:

Sophie confessional...she thinks she has a great alliance right now, she's in good shape, she thinks they are all sincere, but Brandon, she's a little more worried about...she has a gut feeling that he's hiding something...

Sophie we are shown has a good gut, and we should trust it and possibly her, because they are validating her opinion. We, the audience is shown that she is an intuitive and perceptive person, 2 qualities that are good on Survivor.

As I continue to see, she has confessionals that validate to us, the viewers, what is going on out there. We see that she sees it as we see it. Is that the story of a winner? Maybe? You know, she could pull a trick like Hatch. If she were to be in the final TC, she could "jump off" and feel confident that either of the victors would choose her to go to the finals, because she is not a big move maker, she's a "girl", and she's not one of the "alphas". Hmmmmm, gives me a little pause there. If something happens along these lines than, yes, you could be right about the winners story....maybe while Survivor appreciates big moves, you can still win without them. (Of course pulling a Hatch and jumping off may indeed be considered a big Survivor move in and of itself!

Albert is shown to not have any real powers, and he's been shown to NOT be able to make the big moves. But, I think that Albert seems to be playing to win, and I respect that, despite his inadequacies, in contrast to Cochran who can't make big moves and who is playing "not to lose". Albert won't be the winner, imo.

As Whitney said, Rick is just there....there is nothing that they have even bothered to develop with him. Talk about the dog that wouldn't bark! Perhaps he is playing to just "not lose" as Cochran seems to be as well. And, one could say the same about Edna. Edna, let's talk about her, she must have lost her mind out there. As an Anesthesiologist she would have known the answer to the dehydration and daily water requirement question over every one there, yet she got it wrong??? Her hydration and nutrition status must be in severe jeopardy for her to miss that question! She clearly is playing "not to lose". I think the only nod she has gotten this season is as Coach's tool. But, now with Cochran there, she has competition for that job. When Coach is ready to cut either of them loose, he will, and that will be the end of both Cochran and Edna.

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Belle Book 3556 desperate attention whore postings
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11-18-11, 12:10 PM (EST)
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126. "RE: Sophie power"
I agree with you -- I think the guys are making the big moves and falling flat on their faces, especially Albert and Ozzy. Sophie by contrast is maneuvering things behind the scenes to guide the game to the best conclusion where she can win. And I noticed that Sophie's edit has picked up a bit since she won two Immunity Challenges this week, so that makes me think Sophie's true story is about to begin -- the one where she wins.


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11-18-11, 02:32 PM (EST)
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127. "RE: Sophie power"
Hi Belle, appreciate your perspective, but Ozzy made a big move and asked to be voted off so he could beat Christine at RU and he succeeded, he set his tribe up to be in the best possible position that it possibly could be in for the merge. His move worked. It was Cochran that made another big move when he threw his tribe under the bus because he was afraid to lose.

Albert has attempted to make moves, but only in conversation. Talking about making moves but not doing anything that you talked about is not making a move, so he's not falling flat on his face either. He's shown scheming, but he doesn't appear to follow through. And, as I stated I really haven't seen Sophie maneuver anything, to me, it appears as though Coach is the one that is maneuvering. Sophie is just going with the flow, or so it seems.

Winning immunity challenges, however, is definitely something that warrants recognition from the Survivor gods. Who would ever have picked Sophie as the possible challenge whore this season?



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11-18-11, 06:01 PM (EST)
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128. "RE: Sophie power"
You're right -- to a degree. Ozzy's big move did work inasmuch as he was able to beat Christine and get back into the game by the merge. But there were other aspects to that big move -- namely, being able to convince Upolu that Ozzy had been bounced by Cochran -- which didn't work out so well! Ozzy was such a bad actor that the whole plan to have Cochran infiltrate Upolu basically fell apart! That part blew up in his face!

Well, maybe both Coach and Sophie are maneuvering but we only see Coach maneuvering and don't see much of Sophie's own maneuvering. In that sense she's kind of like Becky from Cook Islands -- very much a part of strategy sessions but keeping her own scheming so far below the radar that we don't see it -- and in Becky's case, so far below the radar that few of the jurors saw it! And yeah, winning Survivor Immunity Challenges would definitely warrant recognition from people like Ozzy and Keith. If she makes it to the Final 3 and Ozzy doesn't, maybe she gets his vote (and Keith's) that way!


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11-18-11, 08:46 PM (EST)
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129. "RE: Sophie power"
Sophie's edit is an interesting one. She was my pre-merge pick to win from editing and, looking at the whole picture (including interviews and Insider footage) I'd place my money on her playing the single best game out of anyone all season. Hands down. What concerns me though is that the editing isn't showing this. They're doing enough to give her a degree of prominence each episode, sure, so she obviously has a story still, but I don't think it's that of a winner. She's come second in the first two challenges and then just won two in a row but who got the first confessional post-challenge? Cochran. Even Sophie's challenge wins were part of his story, none of it was her own. If you watch the Insider footage, she's getting some of the best clips on a well rounded winning strategy I've ever seen, but they're not including ANY of them, which sets off fifty million alarm bells for me.

She's either getting the edit of (a) the person who should have made a big move and didn't and therefore get's eaten by their alliance when the majority has to start cannabalizing itself or (b) of the Final 3 opponent who probably deserved to win but doesn't, so the editors are trying to make sure the audience is happy with who the jury ends up voting for by hiding Sophie's superior gameplay.

I don't know which one of the two it is yet, but it's definitely not a winners story unless the editors all decided to take a big Samoan vacation last summer. Say what you want about editing, but I think the last few seasons they have gotten a lot better and making sure they make the most of showing the winners journey, even when they don't have a lot of strategy to work with. I really, really want Sophie to win personally, but I just don't see the editing supporting it. Plus, this episode made me even more confident it's a Cochran victory, but that's a separate post.

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11-18-11, 08:54 PM (EST)
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130. "RE: Sophie power"
True, but it's also possible that Cochran will be going home soon so the editors are milking him as much as possible before he goes to Ponderosa (especially since his flip ensured that Upolu would Pagong Savaii). We'll wait and see on this.


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11-19-11, 01:14 AM (EST)
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132. "RE: Sophie power"
>>> True, but it's also possible that Cochran will be going home soon so the editors are milking him as much as possible before he goes to Ponderosa

THIS

I should clarify ...
I was the first who said the men were making big moves and falling flat on their faces. Wasn't the most accurate way to say it. I meant, in Albert's case, that he went so far as to voice a contrary position to Coach, twice now. He wasn't able to get the votes to support his move, knew that before TC, and had to back down -- that is where it falls flat.

With Ozzy, I meant that in spite of the huge move, he ended up back on Redemption. I do agree that his bad acting was a big factor, and his failure to offer Cochran something more. He could have given him the idol, then the rock draw would have been a non-issue.

But mostly I meant that the desire to make big moves has been stressed this season, mostly through Ozzy and Cochran's confessionals. Jim started the Elyse boot. Brandon wanted to take Mikayla out. Albert wants alternate boots -- Edna, Dawn, Mikayla.

Coach's hinky is up over Albert, big time, and Brandon too. Coach has not said a word about Sophie. At the same time, we don't hear anyone accusing Sophie of riding coat-tails. She is a full fledged member of Stargazers. She is part of the 3-person core with the HII secret.

I am not sure what Natalie had done by this point of Samoa other than to ally with Russell. help get Galu on board with the Erik boot (which was major), and killing the rat (I think that was later than F8 though).

That was a recent season showing the editors still suck at showing how a woman who is not a big mover and shaker wins the game. They didn't do a great job with Sandra either.

kiki, I do remember your excellent point now, thanks. This is one topic where I can't keep up with everything, much less remember, but I had read that. I hated Semhar's performance poetry, so I tried to block out anything relating to it.

Sophie is kind of getting the Andrea edit of best out of a bad bunch, but she is much smarter and more strategic than Andrea. The other Ometepe only tolerated Andrea. Sophie is at the core and for right now, no one has her as a target even at F7. That is good game play. She is neither despised nor a huge threat.

If she keeps winning immunity, she may become a threat, and she may have to play harder. Like Danni in Guatemala, she was quite safe until Gary Hogeboom was out. At that point she had to save herself -- at about F5 I think it was, and then the big scramble was surviving F4 IIRC, then winning the final IC.

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11-19-11, 01:49 PM (EST)
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141. "RE: Sophie power"
I think that could be the major recurring theme of the season - big moves do not work out, period. We have repeatedly seen big ideas thrown out there or big moves proposed/made, but each time it has not worked out for the ones involved. Ozzy's RI move did not work because he was promptly booted out again - his current stay on RI wasn't because of the initial gamble to allow himself to be voted out and then return to the game at the merge.

We've also seen Dawn discuss moves with Cochran - you could say that didn't work out, although that was never considered a major move, I'd think.

I presented Sophie as a potential winner from the editing some time ago and I stand by it - we've seen her take in lots of ideas and theories, but she appears to be calculating everything and letting other people make the moves that fall flat, while staying the course with her main alliance. As you said, both Brandon and Albert threw boot choices out there but didn't work out - that's because it appears to me that Coach and Sophie are the ones pulling the strings - Albert obviously doesn't have the pull in the tribe that the other two have, so this tells me that we should not consider Albert as a potential winner. I think we should consider Coach and Sophie as the only two potential winners left in the game - Brandon/Edna/Rick cannot win with what we've seen from them in the editing. Coach has been up and down all over the map with his editing, so I question whether he can earn the respect to garner some votes if he's in the final three, especially with earning loyalty from Brandon and Edna - would they feel the same loyalty if, let's say, they don't make the final jury while Coach does? I get the sense that the editors want to show who will bear the brunt of the anger if any of Brandon/Rick/Edna and Albert are on the jury and not in the final three - Coach will get that anger directed to him, not Sophie.

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11-19-11, 03:41 PM (EST)
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142. "RE: Sophie power"
excellently said, Pepe.
Makes solid sense to me.

I think Ozzy is the only wild card. I think though that he will fall just short. Perhaps Sophie will be the one to beat him in a challenge?

To date, it looks like Ozzy might have to duel Dawn, Whitney, Cochran, Edna -- then Rick or Brandon. Albert is being kept in reserve for the returnee. I think if Oz can out-do Dawn that he is set for the full run unless something pretty random occurs. The F5 challenge should be something physical that Ozzy can master -- that leaves the last challenge, and sometimes those are good for women.

If Ozzy wins all those challenges, I have no doubt that Savai'i will vote for him to win, but does he do it?

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11-19-11, 02:07 AM (EST)
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133. "Episode 10 - Editing Thoughts"
For 19 days, two tribes, Upolu and Savaii, traded victories in one of the closest battles ever.
When they merged it was still Upolu against Savaii.
But, at the first Tribal Council after the merge, Cochran betrayed his old tribe, sending Keith to Redemption Island, giving the old Upolu a numbers advantage and sending the old Savaii into a state of shock.
<We heard Whitney saying she was disgusted at Cochran>
When Ozzy failed to win immunity, the old Upolu jumped at the opportunity to vote him out, sending him to RI for the second time.
At the next immunity challenge, Whitney hung on for a win.
Back at camp, after previously going against his alliance and targeting Edna, Albert again tried to take control by targeting Dawn.
But, at Tribal Council, Albert’s plan was rejected by Coach and the rest of the old Upolu tribe.
Jim was sent to Redemption Island and now, with seven remaining in the Upolu alliance, the question is: Will anyone seize the opportunity to team up with Dawn and Whutney and turn the game upside down?

Using the verb “betrayed” to describe Cochran’s actions towards Savaii was accurate but it wasn’t the nicest way to spin the story in his favor. In fact it was a bad introduction for Cochran.
Jeff mentioned that Ozzy failed to win immunity when he could simply have said that Jim won it. It could be an indication that Ozzy will fail again later on.
Another player had a bad introduction: It wasn’t really necessary to tell us about Albert’s plan to target Dawn first but it was mentioned so we have to conclude that the editors really wanted us to remember that Albert tried to take control and failed.

Information Is The Biggest Power

Redemption Island – Night 24

As he woke up his old allies, we heard Jim saying: “I thought we were supposed to be the final 3.”

Jim: “The longer that Coach has them believing that they are one tribe, the more likely it is that he wins the million dollars.”
Keith said Coach would bring Edna and Cochran to the end.
Jim agreed.

Hearing Keith talking about the Final 3 we had been expecting, it gives us pause. Maybe Edna isn’t the third finalist. But, just like we didn’t believe Jim when he said that Cochran would finish third, we have to think that Coach won’t win.

Te Tuna

Returning to camp, Coach told Whitney and Dawn that Jim was the most dangerous kind of person: “To your face and on the surface, he looks like the best friend to everybody but, when the chips are down, he wouldn’t do a thing for you. That’s the worse kind of guy.”

With Jim reneging on his plan to give Ozzy the immunity necklace, we have to say that Coach is right. What was interesting was that the camera switched to show Albert and Rick as if these words also applied to them.

Coach: “Survivor 101; rule 37: Everybody that is on the bottom of an alliance better not feel like they are on the bottom of the alliance or they are going to revolt and try to scramble to find themselves a better place in the game. That’s why I keep talking to people about unity and respect <Albert shown again> because people get scared in this game. Blindsides happen every day. In fact, more blindsides happen than alliance sticking together.”

Whitney: “Coach is running the show like he’s Jesus. Do they all think they are gonna go to the end? Obviously, seven can’t gp to the end and it’s so frustrating. I kinda want to laugh at them: You are so smart. Cochran went to Harvard, Sophie is going to med school. I don’t understand how these “smart” people can be so stupid.”

An obvious answer would be that these people are indeed smart and are going to the end. Coach, Sophie and Cochran? Or just Sophie and Cochran? Then who would be their third?

The next morning, Coach was teaching some Tai Chi moves to Cochran.

Cochran: “As painful as it is for me to admit it, I am drinking Coach’s Kool-Aid. I’m drinking it very slowly, not in huge gulps…If I am not in the cult-leaders side, I am going to meet an untimely death so I got to obey the father of the family.”

Coach told him he was worried: “Albert has been really squirrely…Brandon is running around in Brandon-mode. Sometimes I think I am going to get blindsided.”
Cochran was worried himself about being voted out.
Coach said he’d do everything in his power to make sure that doesn’t happen.

Cochran: “I was kind of alarmed to hear that Coach is concernded about Albert’s mind in the game right now. I think there is some sort of power struggle. Albert, he is possibly one of the two biggest leaders of that group so it is possible that he is aware that they are gunning for him earlier than they say they are. So, I’m starting to get concerned about my place in this game. I felt comfortable 24 hours ago. Today, I am not so comfortable.”

Redemption Arena

When Jeff mentioned that the losers would be on the jury, we heard Whitney saying Wow! and saw Albert mouthing the word What?

Did we just find our third finalist? Albert didn’t seem thrilled when Jeff said the jury was starting to assemble so it seem to tell us that he won’t like how Keith and Jim vote.

We heard Rick advising Jim to stay focused.
Asked who he was rooting for, Brandon said Jim.
Jeff then asked if anyone was rooting for Keith. Whitney said yes with a big smile.
No one responded when Jeff asked if Ozzy had any fans. Ozzy was on his own.
When Jim dropped out, we saw Ozzy smile.
When Ozzy won, he stared intently at the spectators.
In repsonse, we first saw Rick and Coach being emotionless and then Albert was seen grimacing.
Keith then told Ozzy: “Try and win it for us, bro.”
Jim joined in: “Go get ‘em, brother.”
Once more, Ozzy told us that he would be nice to the next person joining him but he’d beat them.

Redemption island – Day 26

Ozzy: “Being alone on Redemption is a very nice thing…I’m glad that the Te Tuna tribe is missing my skills. As far as I can tell, no one is able to go out and get fish because they have to spend a lot of their energy watching out for who is doing what, who is going where and who they are talking to. They have to watch out for the conniving nature that is the classic end game of Survivor.” A dying fish was then seen on the sand, another sign against Ozzy.

“Redemption adds a whole new twist to it. If you have the skills like I do…you can have everything set to play the end game with a passion and a ferocity that you can’t get when you have to deal with a tribe.”

We then saw Ozzy climb atop a coconut tree, an amazing helicopter shot showing this natural survivor in all his glory.

Camp

As Ozzy said, Rick wasn’t having any success catching fish.
Dawn said she wanted to eat. Cochran replied he’d be happy just eating coconuts.
Dawn then said: “I realized again this morning how frustrated I am that I jeopardized my own game and didn’t out your game plan when our group could have shook it up. So, I feel like you could reciprocate. I’d do anything to stay right now.”
Cochran told her: “You are still the number one person that I want to work with.”

Cochran: “There is something appealing about the idea of returning to Dawn and Withney. They know it’s pretty much going to have to be the act of an angel looking over them to carry them further in the game and I think that, if I could be that angel, it will probably earn me more jury votes than just blindly following Upolu would.” To Dawn, he said: “I am willing to change things up if I think it is viable.” His confessional continued: “Either way, it is going to have to be a leap of faith. I am going to have to either trust that the few promises I have received to take me further than 7th place have been sincere or if I am really 7th in line, then I have to make a big move so this is something that I have to seriously consider.”

Cochran, we know, wasn’t that angel but we will see him trying. Will it be enough to earn the jury votes? It is much more interesting that we heard him talk about jury votes. What was really noticeable was the change in the quality of Cochran’s voice when he said “or if I am really 7th in line.” That part was spliced with the first and may come from the time frame of next episode when he will again be confronted with this dilemma. Another interesting aspect is that we didn’t really see Cochran working with Dawn. Maybe Dawn returns to make that happen.

The Challenge

Fun comments:
“Brandon and Dawn trying to win this.”
Coach giving it another shot. Coach’s got something going now.”
Right after Jeff said: “Once you find that sweet spot, this gets easier”, we saw that Cochran still hadn’t found his sweet spot. The music told us that this wasn’t a challenge for him!
“Edna…almost. Got to head back.”
“Brandon, Dawn and Sophie, fighting to win immunity. Everybody else (Albert, Whitney and Rick shown) is struggling.”
“Sophie with a huge move. A very big bowl of rice.”
Sophie won immunity and Jeff announced a twist for Tribal Council.

Dawn: “Whitney and I are on the outs so we had to win this challenge for sure…This isn’t the time to give up because anything can happen.”

One thing that could happen is Dawn beating Ozzy. We know she won’t give up.


Cochran
: “I was pretty disappointed with my performance today in the immunity challenge. I thought there was a chance I could excell at this one but, in the end, my lack of balance and agility came back to haunt me.” We heard Coach telling Cochran that Dawn would certainly win the jury vote if she made it to the end. Coachran replied that she would be a challenge threat! Cochran continued his confessional: “Luckily, Dawn and Withney are in such a bad position right now, they know they are the next two to go. Unfortunately, when Jeff mentioned that there will be a twist tonight at Tribal Council, my first thought was “OK, it’s going to be a double elimination so there’s always the possibility that, after we vote one of the two of them, then there will be another immunity challenge and, if one of the remaining two wins that challenge, I could be in danger. So, I’m a little bit nervous.”

Cochran showed that he knew what was coming and how it could impact him. The council would indeed show that he was in danger.

Dawn: “I had to win the challenge, there was no way around it…I feel that their camp has been so serious about this issue of trust, that Coach has this loyal following but it’s not over. The one thing about this game is that you can lay in bed and think I am going home and then the whole day changes.”

I found it interesting that when Dawn mentioned Coach’s loyal following we were shown a group shot where, although she was present (we see her legs) we don’t see Sophie.

Is she the one that will eventually break the alliance? It seemed Albert would be the one but he continues to fail.

Dawn knew that their only hope was to talk to Albert.

Whitney: “Right now, we would definitely be up for making a move. It’s just picking the right people. Brandon is such a loose canon that you don’t know what to believe. Rick? He’s not even playing the game. Edna is so far up Coach’s butt that it’s ridiculous. Albert, at least, seems like a good guy.”

Poor Rick and Edna, being called useless by someone just as useless! Whitney should get flagged for a late hit out of bounds but she is right. No one can argue in favor of Rick and Edna at this point.

With Cochran and Dawn present, Whitney told Albert that Coach would take Edna and Sophie to the end.
Albert was listening, especially when Dawn said: “We are two votes that can help someone.”

Albert: “Right now, I am at a cross-roads. I feel like my only real chance to win this game is to secure every Savaii jury vote I can get. So, I have an idea of possibly getting Edna out immediately for a couple of reasons. A: I really want to credit Cochran for what he’s done for us by moving him up the ladder so to speak and I also want to curry a little bit of extra favor with Whitney and Dawn. Now, I have buttered up three possible jury members and I have lost Edna who wasn’t going to vote for me anyway.”

Albert, despite what many viewers at home think, sees the value of what Cochran did but, at the same time, he shows his strategic limitations. We had just heard Cochran telling Dawn that he wasn’t giving her lip-service while Albert, in effect, did just that. Worse, he neglected to consider that Edna wouldn’t be the only jury vote he loses if he goes against the family. Or does he not remember how Brandon reacts when he sees a traitor? Someone that betrays Brandon’s side that is; not someone who betrays others for Brandon!

For some reason, when Albert told Whitney that Edna was useless and that they deserved to stay more than she did, the camera showed us Cochran.

Brandon pointed out to Coach that they weren’t supposed to talk to these people, not to make themselves available for voting discussions.

Albert and Cochran then had a game of checkers.
Cochran: “This is a bummer. You are about to take one of my pieces either way.”
After making sure that no one was standing behind him, Albert told Cochran that he would be targeted at 7th. He then took one of Cochran’s pieces.
Cochran: “Oh Boy! I didn’t see that. I think I’m screwed big time.”

Cochran: “Albert just confirmed my suspicions that I am going to be voted out at 7th. I am not exactly shocked but I felt that was a complete betrayal of our trust because I am the one that saved that entire tribe and, if they think that Edna is a more valuable player for them or is somebody that made more sacrifices for them, they are sorely mistaken.”

This scene is really bad for Cochran: Seeing him get beaten and say that he is screwed big time could very well be telling us that his future is limited in this game. But that is only a superficial interpretation. As he said about odds, Cochran doesn’t do checkers, he does Survivor. What did the scene tell us about the game of Survivor? Cochran actually got closer to Albert, infiltrating a new layer of Upolu which is the game he is playing. He got information from Albert which can be useful in the future. In his next confessional Cochran was going to tell us that he came to play Survivor, which told us that he wasn’t interested in winning checkers.

His comments about Edna are much more worrisome than the game of checkers but people have said that Edna isn’t valuable all the way back to the first few episodes. Only Coach sees the value of Edna. Maybe he’s like Earl, the only one that saw the value of Yau Man, but the viewers had been given ample evidence that Yau Man was valuable. Edna hasn’t shown us anything.

The game of checkers went on with Albert proposing a big move to Cochran saying: “This is if you want to gamble and if we want to take the game into our own hands.”

Cochran: “I came to play Survivor and Survivor is about big moves. I didn’t make the big jump I did just to be voted out in 7th place. I want to get further in this game and, if that means flipping back then it is something that I will consider.”

Sophie then joined Albert and Cochran in the jungle.
Albert asked about Edna’s allegience as a jury member.
Sophie answered she would vote for Coach.
Albert said they should get rid of her.

Sophie: “Albert is starting to show his true colors more and more which, maybe are similar to my true colors in that I am strategic and I want to win the game and this is our /one shot/ (note the cut in the sound as she said one shot) to make the big move because you have two free votes hanging around. Albert is trying to take control of this game and I am the swing vote. So, now I am debating to stick with Coach or go with Albert’s crazy plan. At the end of the day, it is a question of what will take me to then end.”

Finally, an interesting confessional from Sophie. She finally put herself in the end game discussion instead of just commenting on events around her. What should be made of her chances? We will have to come back to this later.

To Albert and Cochran, Sophie said she had made no promises to Edna.
Albert repeated that she brought zero to the table.

Coach told Edna that Albert was playing for jury votes.
Cochran told Albert that Coach was suspicious.

Coach: “Albert, righ now, is playing for Albert and that is a dangerous game to play out here. I see him talking to Whitney and talking to Dawn. He is either trying to come up with a last second plan or he is trying to curry jury votes and neither one is acceptable in my opinion.” Coach directly threatened Sophie, Rick and Albert, telling them: “If anyone goes against the five, it is instant death.” His confessional continued: “There are three types of motivational style: There is coddling, there is reaffirming and then there is fear. At the moment, I feel like an old mob boss. If anyone goes against the family, they are dead.”

Tribal Council

Dawn told Jeff that Upolu should use the two of them. She said people in positions 5, 6 and 7 should join them.
Whitney said Cochran was 7th.
Cochran said that he was a late comer to the Upolu group. He added he would do some maneuvering once he reached 7th.
Jeff was surprised to see that Cochran hadn’t looked ahead. “You are going to be very late to a party that won’t be interested in letting you in the door.”
Cochran said he was already making plans. He agreed with Jeff that this was a great time to make a big move.
Dawn promised her loyalty to the people she had spoken to.
Coach said he was worried: “We have some thinkers on this tribe…I am not running the show but I am always thinking in the back of my head that people have to make big moves in order to get ahead in this game so I worry, I stress, I believe, I trust. All of those emotions all day long. It drives me crazy.”
Having been caught rolling her eyes at Coach’s claim not to be leader, Whitney said: “It seems that everybody always reports back to Coach.”
Albert seemed to put his foot in his mouth when he said: “It is widely believed that Coach is the leader by the Savaii members. I definitely don’t think he is my leader or the leader of this group. He might just be a figurehead who just represents leadership or he may be pulling the right strings.”
Coach had to respond to that: “I am not the leader of this tribe but I like to get information. Information is the biggest power in this game…Will I use it when my life is in jeopardy which I feel is coming pretty soon?” <The camera showed Albert at that moment> “Yes”.

As soon as Dawn walked down the stairs, Jeff announced a second immunity challenge with a vote to follow.
We saw a few surprised look at Whitney’s reaction: “Damn it.”

When the challenge game down to Whitney, Coach and Sophie, the camera zoomed in on a nervous Cochran.
Sophie won her second immunity to the delight of her tribe and the relief of Cochran.
Whitney was voted out leaving Jeff to say: “The good news is that the 7 of you have accomplished your goal. The bad news? Nowhere left to hide. This game is about to change.”

Dawn’s last words told us that Upolu would have problems playing the end game because of their constant talk of loyalty.

The Story

It is interesting that, this late in the season, the story can still go one of four ways:
1- The Upolu 5 sticks together and we wind up with a final three that would most likely involve Coach, Sophie and Albert.
2- The Upolu 5 break up and Albert leads the move against Coach.
3- The Upolu 5 break up and Coach gets rid of Albert.
4- The Redemption Island returnee finds a way to get to the end.

Of course, the first possibility implies that we were wrong to see Cochran as our possible winner. Hearing Cochran speak against Edna in confessional wasn’t necessary and it didn’t portray him in a flattering light. It’s also troubling that, having reached Final 7, Cochran wasn’t presented as the decoy boot; the previews giving that role to Brandon. And, of course, Cochran could be screwed like the game of checkers implied. Jeff’s words at TC weren’t an endorsement of his end game.

The Characters

Ozzy: Starting with scenario #4, Ozzy has a beautiful story. However, this could be nothing more than a tribute to a great Survivalist instead of setting the stage for our Sole Survivor. Some think that the helicopter shot is meaningful but that image was too great to leave on the editing floor even if Ozzy was to lose the next challenge. Coach in Tocantins and Phillip last season had aerial shots that didn’t translate in victory. Anyway, Coach and Cochran also saw the helicopter filming them as they did their tai chi exercises. Redemption Island edits are tricky as seen last season when two relative nobodies received strong enough edits that some saw them as eventual winners when they turned out to be the returning players only.

Ozzy certainly has the passion and he did have a rough start. He embraces the Redemption Island twist like no one before him which could validate the twist. However, his personal theme, as he said it himself in episode #1, was that he had to improve his strategy. Time and again, he failed. Even his big move was greeted by an unimpressed Upolu tribe that simply didn’t buy it. In my eyes, Ozzy is showing too much confidence in his own abilities. Granted, he dominated challenges in his original season in a way never seen before but that was a long time ago. This season, he failed winning immunity when he really needed it. Let’s see him beat another player with a good edit before making a final decision on his story.

Dawn: With Cochran saying that Dawn could be a challenge threat and her confessional about not quitting, there are hints that Dawn will be the returning player. Will that lead her to a final victory? Coach understood that she would certainly win the million if she is taken to the end so she would face a huge battle once she returned to the game.

Coach: His chances of winning look really good in the first scenario. Like Jim said: “The longer that Coach has them believing that they are one tribe, the more likely it is that he wins the million dollars.” With all of Albert’s talk of making a move and Sophie’s strategic confessionals, this ending would imply that these two fail to get rid of Coach.

There are many parallels between Coach’s story this season and Rob during the last one, notably his confessional about acting like a mob boss. A win by Coach would somewhat fit the main themes we have been following: He does have a passion for this game as evidenced by his “it drives me crazy” response to Jeff. He started off poorly and would be finishing strong. As for his own theme, scenario 1 would mean that he was loyal and played for his tribe to the end.

However, if things work out perfectly for Coach and he ends up in the Final 3, it would be a stretch to say that he started poorly because it only lasted for the first 30 minutes of the premiere episode. It has been going well since then. Also, despite the parallels with Rob, we have seen odd negative moments for Coach, especially his happy little wave as Jim walked off to Redemption Island, his desire to see Christine lose the first duel, his fake hug to Stacey for example. Rob was shown always focusing on the big picture, the win, while Coach., too often, was seen celebrating little victories. Jim has been wrong so often this season that we have to doubt that he told us the true ending when he said that Coach was the likely winner.

The probable reason that Coach would lose is that we have been given hints that he won’t be able to continue making them believe they are one tribe. As he told us; more blindsides occur than alliances sticking together. There are thinkers in that tribe not only puppets and a delusional fool that followed advice from a dead ancestor. Like Coach said in his mob boss speech; if anyone goes against the family, they are dead. If he himself goes against the family, he will need witness protection!

Albert: His story consists mainly of hatching plans to improve his game and being constantly stopped by Coach. Even if he were to succeed, he seems destined to stay with Sophie and her edit overshadows his. It would be weird to see him get the votes over her when she has been presented as the smartest half of that pair while neither appears to be more liked than the other. On the other hand, viewers’ perception and players’ feelings are different things. Stephen from Tocantins could attest to that. Considering that, maybe we should keep in mind that Whitney thought Coach would bring Edna and Sophie to the end. Whitney was presented as an observer during tribal Council so maybe there is something to her observation and Sophie isn’t seen as a jury threat by her fellow players.

That being said, Albert doesn’t fit the themes of the season. He hasn’t shown any passion for the game, he started off well and things have stayed on course despite his best attempts to rock the boat. His chances of winning are in scenario #2 but then he would have to go against the family and that should mean death.

Sophie: She finally talked about more than events surrounding her, talking directly about her end game. Her challenge wins finally validate her comment that she is a strong woman but knowing that clams aren’t dangerous isn’t worth a million dollars! She will need to do more than this even if this episode made her a popular choice to win the game at this stage. The first question I have concerns her lack of presence: Did the editors hide her because they knew she’d shine in late challenges or did they hide her so that her challenge wins won’t make her our favorite. To answer that, let’s examine her story more closely.

Like Albert, her main flaw is that we have no personal connection to her. She is a player, no doubt, but who is she? Whitney knew that she was in Med school so they had to have shared personal moments. We didn’t hear any of that. Other problems comes from the themes which don’t fit her story. Her confessionals have shown no passion and she has never been in trouble.

To complete the analysis of Sophie’s story, we need to go back to Semhar’s last poem, essentially the line: "I'll never understand how men like you can cause so much damage, or even worse, how women like myself can stand it"
Some have mentioned this as “proof” that a woman wins this season but, as we look at it objectively, the poem gives an “even worse” role to the woman. What is more interesting is that we have seen examples of this in each tribe:
- Cochran caused so much damage to Savaii that he is the only one left outside of Redemption Island and we have heard that Dawn let him do it and she regretted doing so, fitting the poem perfectly.
- Albert has tried to cause damage to the Upolu family and Sophie has let him do it. It has been Coach that has stopped Albert up to now. It would be surprising to see Sophie stop Albert’s next attempt because she told us that she shares the same color, the same strategy, as Albert. If Albert and Sophie carry through scenario #2 then neither should win. Going against the family means death.

If Sophie were to win, the theme of the season would become: “Don’t ever, ever step up” which for Survivor’s future is a terrible theme.

As a funny observation, we heard someone ask Sophie how many bowls of rice she had carried to the end and her answer of three was captioned on screen as if we really needed to know. It made me think that she would receive only 3 votes if she makes it to the end.

Cochran: Inevitably, we are led back to our nerd. As one who has been seeing him as winner, I cringed when Jeff said he had betrayed his tribe but then we heard Jim telling Ozzy and Keith that they were supposed to be Final 3 which indirectly justified Cochran’s betrayal.

Cochran isn’t in the South Pacific to play checkers, he is there to play Survivor as he keeps reminding us. His passion for the game was evidenced when he knew exactly what would be the twist at Tribal Council. The thought of that twist forced Cochran back to his natural worried state: The possibility of a win by Whitney would mean his elimination. If this season tells us that it isn’t how someone starts that matters but how they finish, then Cochran is still not there yet, still has ways to go but look at the road traveled since the beginning. This has been his theme and every episode, every vote has reminded us that Cochran still has work to do to get to that good finish.

As for this episode, Coach words about information being power seemed important enough to look at the episode through them. Whitney said that everyone reported to Coach but that wasn’t what we were shown. What we saw was that everyone, everyone that mattered that is, talked to Cochran. He mostly listened and talked to us. Coach told him his worries about Brandon and Albert. Dawn told him she was ready to do anything to stay. Albert told him about his big idea to take over the game and Sophie joined in the discussion. Cochran was present when Brandon told Coach that the other Upolus weren’t supposed to be available to discuss votes with Savaii.

So looking back at Semhar’s poem, a survivor fan will understand the damage that big moves can cause and fans like big moves so maybe this season will show Semhar/us how to play.

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dabo 25344 desperate attention whore postings
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11-19-11, 02:43 AM (EST)
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134. "RE: Episode 10 - Editing Thoughts"
As always, michel, commendable work on your part. Kudos.

I do think, though, that Semhar's poetic nonsense long ago reached the point of total irrelevance.

For some reason, when Albert told Whitney that Edna was useless and that they deserved to stay more than she did, the camera showed us Cochran.

Exactly the same position Cochran had in Savaii. Except he had the Woody Allen perspective about it, and played the Survivor fan thing, oh please don't vote me off first, oh please don't send me to Redemption, take pity on me!

The thing that stands out for me this episode is that Albert is ready to be rid of Edna because she is a Coach vote at the end, there is no point in trying to work her around. There was absolutely no consideration given to the prospect of getting rid of Coach, forcing her to make any other decision.

Coach is going to final.

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11-19-11, 11:44 AM (EST)
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137. "RE: Episode 10 - Editing Thoughts"
Thanks Dabo.

You may be right about Semhar's poetry but it's been brought up a few times so I started to think how it applied to our story. Maybe nothing there but who knows what is a clue and what is meaningless.

"Coach is going to final"

Most probably, yes. I was convinced he had his seat reserved before this episode but the scenes between Cochran and Albert seemed important. If Albert does get rid of Edna, Coach may become so furious that it would turn into a battle of the two leaders. When there are too many leaders, a follower is more likely to win and who is the biggest follower right now?

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11-19-11, 10:44 AM (EST)
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135. "RE: Episode 10 - Editing Thoughts"
Interesting! Another take on that fish... Was the fish dying? It actually was breathing on the shore there with fins waving. I remember making a note that it wasn't dead with flies all over it like last time. Is it waiting for a wave? Temporarily stuck? A flopping fish needing a little nudge? It still has a little life in it?
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11-19-11, 11:36 AM (EST)
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136. "RE: Episode 10 - Editing Thoughts"
Not to mention it was part of the haul Ozzy caught to feed himself on RI while the next shot we got from Te Tuna was an empty fishing net. It was the complete opposite of the dead, rotting, fly-ridden fish associated with Upolu earlier this season.
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11-19-11, 11:48 AM (EST)
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138. "RE: Episode 10 - Editing Thoughts"
Hi Rose and thank you for your input. I don't see a fish on a beach as being in a good spot. We didn't see that wave, we didn't see that nudge. Like it, Ozzy could be on his last breath in this game.

(Then again, the dead fish with flies all over it hasn't told us anything yet...unless Upolu lets a Savaii win.)

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11-19-11, 12:36 PM (EST)
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139. "RE: Episode 10 - Editing Thoughts"
I agree that a Survivor fan will understand the damage that big moves can cause. In fact, I think that is the theme of this season: that big moves can really backfire big-time while smaller moves might just help you win the game -- which might well help Sophie out as she hasn't made the "big moves" that could backfire.

But you mentioned how Semhar's poem about men doing damage and women letting the men do damage (or at least attempt it) and that Dawn let Cochran do fatal damage to Savaii. That doesn't sound as good for Cochran's chances as you might think if the theme of the season is that big moves can totally backfire! Cochran's "big move", that of betraying Savaii, could well backfire for him in the end.

Sophie's confessionals could indicate that she'll help Albert make a big move against Coach or it could just have been some misdirection intended to make us think Edna might be heading to Redemption Island. Anyway, I think we have to wait until two weeks from now since if Cochran can last past the next Tribal Council, your theory that he'll win is looking very good. If not -- well, you'd better put Sophie up in first place.


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11-19-11, 12:56 PM (EST)
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140. "RE: Episode 10 - Editing Thoughts"
Always great to sit back and bite into your editing thoughts, michel. You never disappoint, that's for sure!

I agree with alot of what you see but this time I do see somethings a bit differently than you do.

no one is able to go out and get fish because they have to spend a lot of their energy watching out for who is doing what, who is going where and who they are talking to. They have to watch out for the conniving nature that is the classic end game of Survivor.” A dying fish was then seen on the sand, another sign against Ozzy. “Redemption adds a whole new twist to it. If you have the skills like I do…you can have everything set to play the end game with a passion and a ferocity that you can’t get when you have to deal with a tribe.”

I definitely do not see the fish on the beach as "another sign against Ozzy". I saw this fish as underlining Ozzy's skills as the ultimate survivor thriving on RI, catching his bounty of fish, in contrast to the Upolu's who after this scene were heard failing to catch fish...Rick wasn’t having any success catching fish.
Dawn said she wanted to eat. Cochran replied he’d be happy just eating coconuts.

The fresh fish pulled right out of the ocean and onto the beach was proof that Ozzy is indeed eating well, just as his shot high atop the palm tree was proof that he is indeed getting ample coconuts. These shots underline him as the ultimate Survivor....whether he should win the game or not, imo.

Regarding Cochran and Albert, Albert fails with his plot to possibly make a move to boot Edna rather than the girls. We know this because in the end he voted with Coach to boot Dawn. Cochran also fails, with all of the talk of possibly making a big move to advance above 7th place, but then doesn't. “I came to play Survivor and Survivor is about big moves. I didn’t make the big jump I did just to be voted out in 7th place. I want to get further in this game and, if that means flipping back then it is something that I will consider. Did he even consider it, or is he too much of a coward, in the end we saw that he, like Albert, voted with Coach to boot his good ally Dawn.

I give them both credit for failure.

We had just heard Cochran telling Dawn that he wasn’t giving her lip-service while Albert, in effect, did just that. Well, I saw Cochran in the same vein. He did just give her lip service as well.

With this statement, Cochran is getting a taste of how the Savaii may have felt...
“Albert just confirmed my suspicions that I am going to be voted out at 7th. I am not exactly shocked but I felt that was a complete betrayal of our trust because I am the one that saved that entire tribe and, if they think that Edna is a more valuable player for them or is somebody that made more sacrifices for them, they are sorely mistaken.” How ironic for him... And, would any people argue now that Albert is bullying Cochran because he told him where he stood? Of course not!

And from Coach...Coach: “Albert, right now, is playing for Albert and that is a dangerous game to play out here. I see him talking to Whitney and talking to Dawn. He is either trying to come up with a last second plan or he is trying to curry jury votes and neither one is acceptable in my opinion.” Coach directly threatened Sophie, Rick and Albert, telling them: “If anyone goes against the five, it is instant death.” His confessional continued: “There are three types of motivational style: There is coddling, there is reaffirming and then there is fear. At the moment, I feel like an old mob boss. If anyone goes against the family, they are dead.” He is making out right threats here. Just as Savaii felt when Cochran went against their family. Coach could have been talking from a Savaii perspective and talking about Cochran at the merge, or he could be talking about Cochran now. Because Cochran is the one that I see who is playing the "dangerous game", talking to everyone, trying to come up with a last second plan , trying to curry favor from anyone, and then Coach goes on to bully, just as he has chastised Savaii for "bullying" Cochran. I find this to be a fair assessment of what is going on, but also very hypocritical by Coach as well.

The thing with Coach that is different than with Albert or John, is that he is the one that is controlling everything and everyone at Te Tuna. This bodes extremely well for him. So far there has been doubt cast from others that are trying to change the game to suit themselves...Albert, Cochran specifically. But, in the end, Coach gets to maintain the control over the game. But, there is one thing that Coach can't control, and that is who comes back from RI. This is where Ozzy still has quite a viable chance left in the game.

If Coach rules with an iron fist throughout the rest of the game, and wants to keep his word to foster votes, then he should get Cochran out next, then Edna. If it doesn't happen this way, and Edna were to go next, I would bet that Cochran could indeed be winner. This next episode will either make him, or, break him.


Then, if Coach continues to have his way, he'll favor the 3 best "warriors" for the final 3. And, we know that this is where Coach wants to end up, because he considers himself as "Zeus" and as the ultimate warrior. So, if Coach is destined to the final three, who could be the other two? At this point, because he has no edit whatsoever, I think it will not be Rick.

We heard Coach say if Dawn were to come back she could win. I think Dawn will never get past Ozzy, with the edit Ozzy is receiving at RI. So, if Ozzy is there, he could certainly qualify as a warrior. He is the "uncontrollable" factor in this game, and he will either create doubt as to the winner, or he will win. He still is a very viable option for F3.

At this point, I see the final 5 as Coach, Ozzy, Albert, Sophie, Brandon....fwiw. Like Boston Rob, Coach is handling the game magnificently, and turning into the mob boss was reminiscent of last season. I'd say that bodes very well for Coach.


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11-19-11, 04:00 PM (EST)
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143. "RE: Episode 10 - Editing Thoughts"
Fantastic post, FlowerPower!

I agree with your F5. My only doubt is whether the last Upolu to go is Brandon or Rick. Ozzy will return, and either he will win or he will lose the final challenge and have his streak sadly end as with Terry Deitz -- and will win Fan Favorite.

My only slight difference in perspective:
>>> then Coach goes on to bully, just as he has chastised Savaii for "bullying" Cochran. I find this to be a fair assessment of what is going on, but also very hypocritical by Coach as well.

I think Coach's mob boss impersonation was more Robfaddah than bullying like Savai'i schoolyard picking on the misfit. The Upolu swore an oath to stay true to the five, and for Coach to reinforce that was not bullying. He was reminding the "made" 5 that to go to a rival family and break oath would bring retribution. If they are loyal, they live. If not, they die in the game.

With Cochran, it was that they ran him down as a person. Coach was more enforcing the contract they had all made.

I agree that the fish was not meant to be a portent of doom. We should look at these scenes through the eyes of people deprived of nutrition. Protein is energy. The fish is almost pure protein and nourishing fish oils that feed the brain and cardio. The rice diet with almost no protein messes up their thinking.

It is very generous of Ozzy to feed his competitors before they duel. It will help them. If he didn't share, he'd have a better chance to win, but he is willing to duel on a more level playing field. Yes he is doing it to get jury votes, but I think he would do it anyway.

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11-19-11, 07:50 PM (EST)
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146. "RE: Episode 10 - Editing Thoughts"
I agree that the Final 5 will be Albert, Coach, Ozzy, Sophie and either Brandon or Rick, most likely Brandon (sorry, Michel, I'm thinking Cochran's run is going to come to an end in the next episode). I also think that Ozzy will win the penultimate Immunity Challenge but Sophie will win the final one, sending Ozzy to Ponderosa as the final juror.

Coach's "mob boss" impersonation might seem like bullying to some but it might also just be his way of trying to reinforce the "Upolu to the end" mentality that he worked so hard to create. It worked, since Dawn and Whitney were sent over to Redemption Island.

The interesting part is that we all look at editing and we all see different things. Michel still sees Cochran as the winner in the end. Kiki is one of those who sees Ozzy as the winner. And I'm kind of leaning towards Sophie as the winner. The next original episode will tell the tale for Cochran, and later ones will tell the tale for Ozzy and Sophie.


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11-19-11, 08:44 PM (EST)
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147. "In fairness"
I've said the winner is Ozzy or a female.


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149. "RE: In fairness"
True. And Sophie's the most likely candidate left among the women who are still in the game (unless Dawn comes back from Redemption Island, and that's unlikely). I guess I erred in your case. I'm sure Flowerpower sees the editing supporting an Ozzy win, however.


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11-19-11, 05:35 PM (EST)
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144. "RE: Episode 10 - Editing Thoughts"
Very nice assessment FloPo.

I do, however, disagree with your point that Coach is playing like Boston Rob -- IMO Coach is playing the game he *thinks* Boston Rob played (i.e., it is an imitation). Boston Rob actually had complete control of the Ometepes; with Albert & Brandon, I think we've seen Coach doesn't have that same control. Also, Coach seems to have forgotten the part of Boston Rob's game called the Buddy System -- sure, Rob would have used a guy like John to avoid a tie, but he would have gotten rid of him by now & not leave the potential for Albert (or other Upolus) & John to join forces (not saying they will, just pointing out that Coach doesn't have the same kind of control Rob did. It's why he got rid of Matt). Finally, we had confessionals of Boston Rob fully aware that if these guys weren't so naive they'd be voting him out & laughing about it. With Coach we get threats against the others for going against him which he delivers with seriousness. Rob was ruling through wiles; Coach is ruling through fear.

And while Coach started out the game magnificently, his edit has gone steadily down hill since episode 6. Not only has Tocantins "joke player" Coach come back (Coach Chi on the beach), he has become associated with 2 mass-murdering cults -- The Family (Manson) and Kool-Aid (Jim Jones). He can't win with that kind of association. (It is true the Ometepes were called a "cult" toward the end, but it wasn't specifically tied to Manson & Jim Jones like the Upolus/Coach are; and it was done more to create a little doubt about a Rob win; I don't believe the same can be said of Manson & Jim Jones).

I actually do think John will be next (Coach was very wishy-washy about seeing what he could do about not having him go out at F7 -- already preparing his excuses for jury votes, what he accuses Albert of doing) but even if the next boot isn't John I don't think that will increase his chances for winning. John has gone out of his way to associate himself with the cult-leader Coach we are seeing now (wearing his coat, doing Coach Chi on the beach). John can't come back from embracing The Family & drinking the Kool Aid and the negative connotations associated therein.

I've already stated in previous posts that the winner is either Ozzy or a female. If that female is Sophie she, unlike John who has immersed himself in Coach, has been shielded to a certain extent from Coach -- she was shown as critical of Coach's religious hypocrisy in Episode 7 & she was noted by Jim as being one of the 2 (Albert the other) who wasn't drinking the Coach Kool Aid.

However, I'm still only so-so on Sophie being the "winner." While it is true, as I've noted, that female winners usually get the shaft edit wise on Survivor, Sophie would have the absolute worst edit of all female winners -- even Vecepia's was better. We have gotten no personal connection with her & her confessionals until this last episode were nothing but narration (as opposed to strategy). She won 2 ICs last episode & she was still seen as an after thought/swing vote, when it should have been a huge episode for her. Even though we finally got a little bit of strategy from her this past episode, and some see that as an "uptick" in her edit, I don't see it that way. The extent of her "strategy" was merely saying she was going to do what was best to get her "to the end." Note, she didn't say "the million;" she didn't say "the win;" she said "the end." I'll pick her right now as F3, but I don't think she is the winner. Also, they showed her throwing up at the coconut water challenge -- I just can't seem them showing that if she was the winner (Natalie White threw up in a challenge during Samoa & they didn't show it).

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11-20-11, 08:56 PM (EST)
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150. "RE: Episode 10 - Editing Thoughts"
I'm in agreement with you that Coach *thinks* he's playing like Boston Rob. He's trying to make some of the same moves that Rob did last season, but the difference is that he's been a little too vocal about his threats and trying to instill fear, while we found out that Rob worked over each person in his tribe quietly in an one-on-one manner and made sure they didn't talk to each other. Coach appears to be letting the tribemates talk to each other and we've seen that some are not buying into his B.S.

I see Sophie as being a good deal more visible than Vecepia ever was in the Marquesas. Personally, I like to see winners being shown in a strategic manner and expressing their thoughts on what's happening in the game or within in the tribe - personally I don't really care all that much about who they are as personalities. I think Sophie's edit has been remarkably consistent and gradually going up, while we've seen significant flaws from just about everyone else left in the game. The closest thing to a "flaw" for her is the gakking during the coconut water challenge, but even so, she was thisclose to winning that challenge and would have been three in a row for her. I don't see throwing up as being a big deal - every winner has had a flaw somewhere along the way.

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11-20-11, 09:24 PM (EST)
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151. "RE: Episode 10 - Editing Thoughts"
LAST EDITED ON 11-20-11 AT 09:25 PM (EST)

"I see Sophie as being a good deal more visible than Vecepia ever was in the Marquesas."

I guess it has been a long time ago but you should take another look at episodes #2, 3 and 4 of Marquesas. Sophie never had episodes like that, especially the third.

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11-20-11, 09:58 PM (EST)
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152. "RE: Episode 10 - Editing Thoughts"
But then Vecepia disappeared for long stretches and we rarely heard her strategic thoughts on the game. The only thing of note that I recall is her conversation with Sean about it being about time a black person won the game.
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11-20-11, 10:12 PM (EST)
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153. "RE: Episode 10 - Editing Thoughts"
LAST EDITED ON 11-20-11 AT 10:15 PM (EST)

When michel & I actually agree on something, people need to just take it to the bank.

I specifically said "even Vecepia had a better edit <than Sophie>." That doesn't mean Vecepia had a great edit & that certainly doesn't mean she got something other than the usual Survivor "female winner shaft" edit. Nonetheless, her edit was better than Sophie's. Especially episode 4 after the tribal swap where they showed her confessional learning her new tribe mates names contrasted with Rob's confessional making fun of his new tribe mates.

And Sophie throwing up is a big deal, IMO, or else why did they specifically hide Natalie White doing the same thing at a challenge? I just can't believe they'd leave that scene in for a winner, even one that beats Jeff's man-crushes Coach & John.

eta: Obviously, Sophie could win -- as I've said I believe it is Ozzy or a female -- but I'd still be right that if the winner is Sophie her edit is even worse than Vecepia's.

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11-20-11, 11:15 PM (EST)
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154. "RE: Episode 10 - Editing Thoughts"
I can't buy into the -- winners don't yak theory.

Perhaps they didn't show Natalie throwing up because they wanted to hide how much Russell was protecting his supposed goat. She was kept even though better performing Foa Foa were voted out.

IIRC, Tina threw up and lost the gross food challenge for Ogakor.
If you regurgitate during a challenge as Sophie did, it just shows that you're willing to play hard.

Sophie won that last IC by daring to take three times as much rice as the others and betting the challenge on making it, as that was the last run. That was bold.

The Ponderosa videos are interesting. CBS wants viewers to see them, so I consider them part of the edit.

Jim and Keith agreed that Coach was winning the game if the Upolu stuck together and didn't make a move with Dawn and Whitney. They also said that everyone would want Cochran at F3. They don't see Coach as a loser. They see him leading the game, and they would reward that.

Sophie says that if Ozzy came back, he would be as good to sit next to in F3 as Cochran, that Ozzy won't get the votes. I think she is wrong, but interesting perception.

My belief with the female winner edit is that the producers don't believe that the audience will deliver ratings if they see a season pointing to someone like Sophie winning. So they direct the editing to hold out hope that a splashy character will win, to get people to watch the Finale. I think that is the goal, Finale ratings.

I think Ozzy will be in the Finale, so they can build him up. So will Coach. I don't know about Cochran. Jonathan Penner didn't make the finals, but his moves and the drama he generated made the Cooks post-merge interesting. Cochran has helped to fill an otherwise dull progression. Last season, Phillip's drama was the filler during the pagonging, and would have been shown regardless of his finish.

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11-21-11, 01:57 AM (EST)
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155. "RE: Episode 10 - Editing Thoughts"
Sophie says that if Ozzy came back, he would be as good to sit next to in F3 as Cochran, that Ozzy won't get the votes. I think she is wrong, but interesting perception.

I saw that clip & the fact that CBS left it out of the show & only put it on an insider clip actually bodes well for Sophie IMO because it shows she isn't 1/2 as smart as she thinks she is (or they are trying to make us believe) -- she talks about Ozzy having pissed people off & yet somehow imagines she's getting to F3 without pissing anyone off? And she somehow thinks 4 Savaii votes on the jury would go to her instead of Ozzy who proved his loyalty to them by going to RI to beat Christine to give Savaii a chance at merge? I also guess she didn't hear Keith tell Ozzy "Win this for us, bro" when he left RI. The fact that she can say what she did about Ozzy with a straight face is a clue as to why we haven't heard more "strategy" from her, so maybe her cr@p edit is actually protecting her (just like they are shielding her from Coach's religious hypocrisy & the "Coach kool aid" comments). The clip shows she assumes everyone else thinks the way she does & that isn't the mark of a very savvy Survivor player.

My belief with the female winner edit is that the producers don't believe that the audience will deliver ratings if they see a season pointing to someone like Sophie winning.

I'm reading this as if you find this acceptable and/or understandable. I hope I'm wrong about that.

And yep, Sophie kicked butt in the rice challenge & yet the focus was on how pathetic her competition was, not how great she did. The entire episode should have been HUGE for her, but it wasn't. Not good for her, IMO.

Maybe you're right about the throwing up not being a big deal* (although, to be fair, that isn't the only reason I'm so-so about her, but fine). Nonetheless, if Sophie wins it will be the worst edit ever for a winner. All she has is narrator confessionals & shielded from Coach (despite being 100% with him). Is that really enough for people to be picking her as a winner? IMO, no, it isn't -- it is a default "why Coach doesn't win" edit, not a "winner's edit." (Or, as I would say the default "female winner shaft" edit).

*I still disagree -- gross food challenges don't count because (1) the whole point of a gross food challenge is to "create TV" with people throwing up and (2) people at home can relate to throwing up with that type of challenge. Those factors don't exist in the coconut water challenge -- Sophie throwing up then made her look weak -- if she had only gagged & been able to continue without throwing up, then she would have looked like she "played hard." And, as I pointed out, they could have easily hid her throwing up if they had wanted (unlike with the gross food challenge which, as I said, is the point of those challenges)-- the fact that they didn't isn't good for her, IMO.

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