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"S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"
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KObrien_fan 8360 desperate attention whore postings
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11-03-11, 09:55 AM (EST)
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"S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"
Survivor was and still is a social game. Figuring out how you can survive the elements, but more importantly the other players, and then get them to vote for you to win the money.

We saw Savaii take a fall of epic proportions last night and their chances after the merge do not look good, even for Cochran who was the one that flipped on them in the first place.

Some people say that Cochran is a weasel who is out only for himself and that his move is the most selfish move in history, even Dawn said something to that effect.

Some even think that Cochran turned his back on the very people that saved him.

Newsflash- they didn't save him. Each time they voted in previous tribal councils the players had bigger fish to fry or self serving interests and that is what gave Cochran the next 3 days. Even in a team game people make moves that work best in their favor, or at least they try.

With Semhar it was Jim who wanted her gone to keep Ozzy focused and less powerful. Maybe others did too.

With Papa Bear it was all of them thinking that he was too old to be useful to keeping the tribe strong.

With Elyse it was Jim and Dawn once again wanting to keep Ozzy focused and weaken him as a player by taking away a back pocket girl.

Even Ozzy's big move was not one meant to save Cochran, it was meant to save Savaii so that they could go into the merge 6-6 with a chance to gain a numbers advantage on Upolu so that each Savaii individual could have a shot at winning the game.

Savaii knows Cochran is inept and yet they base all their hopes and dreams on him as double agent? They bash him repeatedly and he knows where he stands with them and then they think he won't flip? They don't really want to risk their own spot in the game by letting it all rest on Cochran's shoulders do they?

If you play Survivor, you have a plan A then a plan B, then a plan C etc. And you do the work yourself, you don't rely on one person to do all the work for you, not if you want to stick around. Savaii gave Cochran way too much responsibility, and then seemingly didn't do anything to see how it was working, work their own angles, or anything.

What could Ozzy have done differently?

As the mastermind of his dream scheme he could and should have been pumping Christine for every last drop of information about Upolu that he could since she was on that tribe and she had the chance to talk to each booted player.

Who is low man on the totem pole? Edna you say, great, we will work on her flipping. Who is in the core alliance? Sophie, Albert and Coach? Great, let's work on Rick, Edna, and Brandon. Etc etc.

Ozzy not only could have done a better job of trying to learn more about the other tribe, he could have done a better job of knowing his own tribe.

He knew them on the surface, but do you think he realized how fragile Dawn was or that she was contemplating flipping too since she felt like she was on the outside? He had no clue, because he has no social game.

Did he realize that Cochran really had an issue with pulling a rock out of a bag? He didn't, but he should have. You have got to know what your people are feeling and thinking about, or else you will get surprised when the person acts the way that all clues indicated they would.

Is Cochran a good actor? He was the only one at the RI challenge that appeared to be keeping a distance from the other Savaii. Everyone else was showing with their body language that they were rooting for Ozzy. The whole tribe gave it away, and Upolu was watching. This made Cochran's job all the harder and Coach laid it out to him exactly as it went down, because Coach had been observing.

If Cochran is such a bad actor, then why couldn't Ozzy tell that he wasn't really with Savaii? Because Ozzy was in his own world, didn't care enough to observe the body language, the tells. Even Jim the poker player should have been able to observe Cochran when they discussed the rock pulling and is everybody with me crap, he couldn't tell that Cochran was flipping? Please. Cochran was a good actor in Savaii but a bad actor in Upolu? It depends on who was paying attention, and we know who did.

Boston Rob was a master of the social game. He knew what each person in his alliance needed to hear to be assured that everything was going according to plan. Coach has done a very good job of that himself so far this season. But Ozzy hasn't learned a thing and won't, he is one dimensional in this game.

Cochran even realized how bad he would look if he flipped. He knew that there would be 5 bitter Savaii on the jury if he could make it that far. He knew Upolu would never fully trust him, if he would flip on his own tribe, why wouldn't he flip on them? He knew his chances of winning Survivor would be flushed down the toilet if he flipped. And yet he still did not want to draw a purple rock and be instantly gone from the game. He would rather take the game into his own hands then to lose that way. And nobody on his tribe, even Dawn did not understand this.

Yes, Cochran made a selfish move that cost his tribe and most likely himself the million dollars. But he didn't turn his back on his tribe, this was never his tribe in the first place, he was never "in".

Ozzy will get his turn at RI and he will beat all comers. He will beat Cochran in a duel at some point and send him to the jury and feel some sort of revenge. He will get back in the game most likely, because of his challenge prowess. And this is the game that he would much rather play, so in the end it all worked out. He really doesn't care about his tribe.


I'm not sure who came first hosting games, you or Tribe, but you are both nefarious! - CTGirl

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  Table of Contents

  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
 RE: S23 Survivor the social game as... Pretty_Kitty 11-03-11 1
 RE: S23 Survivor the social game as... Belle Book 11-03-11 2
   RE: S23 Survivor the social game as... Scarlett O Hara 11-04-11 62
       RE: S23 Survivor the social game as... PepeLePew13 11-04-11 63
       RE: S23 Survivor the social game as... KObrien_fan 11-04-11 64
           RE: S23 Survivor the social game as... Belle Book 11-05-11 67
 RE: S23 Survivor the social game as... Corvis 11-03-11 3
 RE: S23 Survivor the social game as... parathor 11-03-11 4
   RE: S23 Survivor the social game as... KObrien_fan 11-03-11 5
       RE: S23 Survivor the social game as... parathor 11-03-11 7
   RE: S23 Survivor the social game as... PepeLePew13 11-03-11 8
       RE: S23 Survivor the social game as... emydi 11-03-11 9
           RE: S23 Survivor the social game as... samboohoo 11-04-11 47
 RE: S23 Survivor the social game as... Blind Freddy 11-03-11 6
   RE: S23 Survivor the social game as... Brownroach 11-03-11 13
 RE: S23 Survivor the social game as... Flowerpower 11-03-11 10
   RE: S23 Survivor the social game as... Brownroach 11-03-11 12
   RE: S23 Survivor the social game as... KObrien_fan 11-03-11 14
   RE: S23 Survivor the social game as... Belle Book 11-03-11 18
       RE: S23 Survivor the social game as... PepeLePew13 11-03-11 21
           RE: S23 Survivor the social game as... Belle Book 11-03-11 25
       RE: S23 Survivor the social game as... kiki_k 11-03-11 26
           RE: S23 Survivor the social game as... Belle Book 11-03-11 27
               RE: S23 Survivor the social game as... kiki_k 11-03-11 29
                   RE: S23 Survivor the social game as... Belle Book 11-04-11 43
           RE: S23 Survivor the social game as... PepeLePew13 11-03-11 28
               RE: S23 Survivor the social game as... kiki_k 11-03-11 30
                   RE: S23 Survivor the social game as... PepeLePew13 11-03-11 31
                   RE: S23 Survivor the social game as... Modesty 11-04-11 39
               RE: S23 Survivor the social game as... Scarlett O Hara 11-04-11 65
                   RE: S23 Survivor the social game as... PepeLePew13 11-04-11 66
           RE: S23 Survivor the social game as... SquidProQuo 11-03-11 34
           RE: S23 Survivor the social game as... Corvis 11-04-11 40
 RE: S23 Survivor the social game as... Brownroach 11-03-11 11
   RE: S23 Survivor the social game as... KObrien_fan 11-03-11 15
       RE: S23 Survivor the social game as... Brownroach 11-03-11 20
 RE: S23 Survivor the social game as... 5cats 11-03-11 16
   RE: S23 Survivor the social game as... Corvis 11-03-11 17
       RE: S23 Survivor the social game as... PepeLePew13 11-03-11 19
           RE: S23 Survivor the social game as... 5cats 11-03-11 22
               RE: S23 Survivor the social game as... Corvis 11-03-11 23
                   RE: S23 Survivor the social game as... 5cats 11-03-11 24
                       RE: S23 Survivor the social game as... SquidProQuo 11-03-11 32
                           RE: S23 Survivor the social game as... 5cats 11-03-11 35
                               RE: S23 Survivor the social game as... SquidProQuo 11-04-11 36
 RE: S23 Survivor the social game as... SquidProQuo 11-03-11 33
   RE: S23 Survivor the social game as... Brownroach 11-04-11 37
       RE: S23 Survivor the social game as... SquidProQuo 11-04-11 53
   RE: S23 Survivor the social game as... SquidProQuo 11-04-11 38
       RE: S23 Survivor the social game as... PepeLePew13 11-04-11 41
           RE: S23 Survivor the social game as... SquidProQuo 11-04-11 50
               RE: S23 Survivor the social game as... Brownroach 11-04-11 52
                   RE: S23 Survivor the social game as... SquidProQuo 11-04-11 55
                       RE: S23 Survivor the social game as... Belle Book 11-04-11 57
       RE: S23 Survivor the social game as... dabo 11-04-11 42
           RE: S23 Survivor the social game as... Corvis 11-04-11 44
           RE: S23 Survivor the social game as... Blind Freddy 11-04-11 45
               RE: S23 Survivor the social game as... Slider 11-04-11 48
                   RE: S23 Survivor the social game as... dabo 11-04-11 49
                       RE: S23 Survivor the social game as... SquidProQuo 11-04-11 51
                           RE: S23 Survivor the social game as... Brownroach 11-04-11 54
                               RE: S23 Survivor the social game as... SquidProQuo 11-04-11 56
                                   RE: S23 Survivor the social game as... dabo 11-04-11 58
                                   RE: S23 Survivor the social game as... Brownroach 11-04-11 59
                                       RE: S23 Survivor the social game as... Slider 11-04-11 60
                                           RE: S23 Survivor the social game as... Belle Book 11-04-11 61
 RE: S23 Survivor the social game as... samboohoo 11-04-11 46

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Pretty_Kitty 536 desperate attention whore postings
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11-03-11, 10:16 AM (EST)
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1. "RE: S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"
Well said! Ive been reading the Cochran bashing all week and Ive wanted to add my 2 cents but didnt have the words. As much as I dislike Coach he's a MUCH better player then Ozzy will ever be.
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Belle Book 3556 desperate attention whore postings
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11-03-11, 11:11 AM (EST)
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2. "RE: S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"
I have to agree. Yul and Boston Rob were both masters of the social game. They both worked at making sure their alliances survived. Ozzy doesn't know how to work at making sure his alliance survives, let alone making sure that outliers feel comfortable in his tribe. If Ozzy had done so, Cochran would have stayed loyal and we wouldn't be bashing him. I must blame Ozzy and to a lesser degree, most of the rest of Savaii for not making Cochran feel comfortable, for making him vulnerable.


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Scarlett O Hara 3259 desperate attention whore postings
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11-04-11, 09:38 PM (EST)
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62. "RE: S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"
This seems like a basher thread -- should have been posted in Bashers, not Spoilers. Sorry to see the Ozzy-bashing going on here. Survivor is a social game, and Ozzy has always been a lone wolf- so, what's new? He also happens to be one of the best true survivors in the game - a natural, who actually thrives at surviving with nothing on hand. What was one of his early quotes? "I can survive out here just fine, however, I now realize that my tribemates can't. They need shelter." He didn't need a social game when he practically single-handedly kept the Aitu-Four afloat in the game. Because of who he is, he will always have a huge target on his back, but he will always manage to get farther than most.

In the beginning, Ozzy did fail to bond with his tribe. However, he realized the error of his ways, and came around and risked his life in the game for his tribe mates and for Cochran.

Cochran, on the other hand, is a total loser -- a Judas who threw his entire tribe under the bus. He will be remembered as the biggest betrayer of all time. As a so-called "student of the game," he has failed miserably. I will take great satisfaction to see Ozzy send him off of R.I. Ozzy's biggest mistake was not getting rid of the slime ball first. His second biggest mistake was not giving the most insecure player ever - Cochran - the HII at Tribal Council, (instead of Whitney). What a loser - Cochran jumped ship the first opportunity he got.

The sad thing is that the Upolos have nothing redeeming about them. I am not happy about the pagonging that is about to take place, nor the sourced spoilers that happens every time a Hantz is on the show.

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PepeLePew13 24731 desperate attention whore postings
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11-04-11, 09:59 PM (EST)
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63. "RE: S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"
LAST EDITED ON 11-04-11 AT 10:02 PM (EST)

Ok Scarlett. I'll bite.

Let me ask you this. If you knew you had a 1-in-8 chance of pulling out a purple rock and you also knew you had a lower chance of winning a duel against Christine (let's say 1-in-4 chance), why would Cochran volunteer to go to Redemption Island? Of course he's not going to volunteer to go as he knows his best shot is to stay in the game and take his chances with a purple rock or with switching. Voluntarily going to RI is game suicide for him as he knows his limitations and he knows that Christine would probably kick his azz. Let the tribe vote him out, but why volunteer to go? I wouldn't volunteer no matter what, and I consider myself a potentially good challenge player if I ever went on Survivor. Nope. Anyone else here on Spoilers forum would willingly go? If so, I'd love to play against you in a real Survivor game, then.

And why shouldn't he switch? Dawn said in the Insider that the tribe wasn't nice to Cochran - she was there so she knows how Cochran was treated. Ozzy mocked Cochran. Keith wasn't nice to Cochran. So you think Cochran should show loyalty to a tribe that had several of its members not being nice to him? You call it betrayal, I call it trying to save himself in the game and feeling hurt by how he was treated by his tribemates. None of his tribemates bothered to work with him to secure his vote -- the Upolus did. The Upolus were rewarded by having Cochran join them. Wouldn't you switch?

Knowing you're sixth of six members on Savai'i and knowing that most of your tribe doesn't like you ... or knowing that there's a possibility of being in a F4 alliance and having the Upolus give you the time of the day without putting you down? Which would you pick, Scarlett? Forget that there's an Ozzy or a Coach there, just look at the options. You know what you'd pick -- a sure 6th place finish on a tribe that dislikes you or the potential for a top 4 finish on a tribe that at least gives you the time of the day? Not a tough decision at all for me. I'd jump under these circumstances as well.

Ozzy is an idiot, plain and simple. Anyone could have predicted that Christine (assuming she beats Cochran) would be more likely to go to the Savaiis rather than to her old tribe (and Christine pretty much confirmed this in her RTVW interview). They would have been in decent enough shape with Christine joining them instead of Cochran. Read below or on the other thread why it wasn't a good idea to give Cochran the HII as you seem to believe it would have been better to give it to him instead of Whitney. It would have done *nothing* at all to give it to Cochran.

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KObrien_fan 8360 desperate attention whore postings
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11-04-11, 10:00 PM (EST)
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64. "RE: S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"
This thread was started to continue the valid discussion in the east coast spoiler thread. It is looking at the social aspect of the game and mistakes made by the entire Savaii six, each of whom is directly responsible for their downfall.

This thread is not "bashing" Ozzy as you say, it is analyzing his contribution as well as others for the failed plan. It isn't all Cochran's fault. Yes, he pulled the trigger and flipped, but so much more could have been done by Savaii to prevent it or at least minimize the damage if/when it happened.

So many are appalled at the Ozzy bashing yet freely bash and use bad names and derogatory remarks about Cochran? This is not a basher thread but there is a lot of emotion and reaction to this last episode and some of that comes out.

There was a thread earlier this season in spoilers about Uncovering Lil Hantz as people tried to figure out who he is and why he was acting the way that he was.

You may not agree with much of what is said in this thread, but as it pertains to the show and is discussing long term outcomes of the present game being played it does belong here.


I'm not sure who came first hosting games, you or Tribe, but you are both nefarious! - CTGirl

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Belle Book 3556 desperate attention whore postings
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11-05-11, 11:16 AM (EST)
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67. "RE: S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"
LAST EDITED ON 11-05-11 AT 11:20 AM (EST)

I totally agree! Cochran may have been the one who flipped and thus was the immediate cause of the fall of the Savaii six, but Keith, Ozzy and Whitney could have done so much more to prevent his flipping by just treating him nicer or at least by making him feel more comfortable -- and Dawn herself had noticed that in the Insider.

Jim and Dawn herself could have at least minimized the damage of Cochran's flipping. Jim himself could have prevented the flipping by using his own love of strategy to form a Final 3 alliance with Cochran and Dawn. And Dawn could have realized that Cochran's feeling so alienated from his tribe might make him even more vulnerable to flipping than fear of the purple rock itself. Or if she truly believed that fear of the purple rock was the only reason Cochran might want to flip, she could have urged Ozzy to give Cochran the necklace.

Meanwhile, what did we see from Upolu? We saw a unified tribe that remained so because Coach, Albert and Sophie did their best to make the outliers feel comfortable. We also saw them offer Cochran a Final 4 deal (albeit on the Insider) -- which appears to be much more than Cochran ever got from Savaii! Savaii's failure in the social game and strategic game left the door open for Upolu to take control. That is the fault of Jim, Keith, Ozzy, Whitney and even Dawn, not just Cochran alone!


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Corvis 3116 desperate attention whore postings
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11-03-11, 11:28 AM (EST)
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3. "RE: S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"
Nice. I agree completely.
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parathor 250 desperate attention whore postings
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11-03-11, 11:43 AM (EST)
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4. "RE: S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"
I hate taking up the mantle of Cochran-bashing, but this player deserves it. He's neither hero nor villain, makes no big moves, is infamous in his own mind, plays for "3 more days." The logical comparison would be to Sandra (whose strategy was "anyone but me,") but she built alliances, dumped fish, manipulated players... What he's doing is a waste of space on this show.

they didn't save him
Whether their intention was to save Cochran or not, they did "save" him each time. Ozzy volunteered to go in order to have all 6 players survive to see another day. If Cochran wasn't going to stay loyal, then Ozzy wouldn't have needed to do that. "Good luck on Redemption. Thanks for losing the challenge for us."

What could Ozzy have done differently?
He's certainly not blameless. He could have offered the idol to Cochran instead of Whitney. He could have had Jim sell the plan (he's a salesman! AND plays poker! TOTALLY the better choice!)

Worst part of Ozzy's plan was that it didn't appear he tried to bring anyone over (as a back-up plan) from the other side. He just assumed they were tight. Had he spent a moment or two analyzing the situation he could have reached out for the outsiders.

Did he realize that Cochran really had an issue with pulling a rock out of a bag? He didn't, but he should have.
I disagree, to an extent. The plan was solid. Big moves are rewarded. 85% chance of being safe (1/7) from RI. Everyone else was ok with pulling the rock.

And yet he still did not want to draw a purple rock and be instantly gone from the game. He would rather take the game into his own hands then to lose that way.
The game wasn't going to be in his hands regardless. The winner is voted on by people they've kicked out, not by the person who lasts 39 days. He'd still be in the game via Redemption Island, so even if his goal is "3 more days" he'd get that on RI. I understand that the purple rock is an awful way to play - but it's still only been done once in 23 seasons, and 7-10 other people in the game were willing to go that route... shouldn't that tell him something? That's what irks me the most, I think - he's not a very good student of the game. His chances are 85% of not drawing a rock, and then significantly improve in winning the game by not drawing the rock. And he was already scheduled to get kicked out anyway - these are all free days for him!

"Thanks for saving me, suckers!"

...actually, that would have been a fine response. Instead he turns and says "Yeah, it was me, but I can explain." Like, he's trying to be the hero, but keeps doing villainous things... and he's not being a villain for villain's sake, either!

I feel bad that he's insecure, and I'm sure I'd probably be in the same exact boat as him if our places were exchanged, but that doesn't make it right. This guy has overstayed his time on the show, and makes stupid mistakes - I'd like for him to leave now.

...and I can't ever remember feeling this way about any other player.

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KObrien_fan 8360 desperate attention whore postings
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11-03-11, 11:55 AM (EST)
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5. "RE: S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"
The plan to draw a purple rock was not solid because not everybody was on board and willing to draw the rock.

The fact that Cochran didn't want to draw a rock was missed by his entire team except Dawn who reached out to him. Even she didn't say anything to warn the tribe of their upcoming fate, thus sealing her own fate on something she knew Cochran was going to do, even though she hoped and prayed he wouldn't.

The signs were there if they had paid attention to him when he spoke during their purple rock pow wow, he had his arms folded across his chest, he was very quiet until and unless directly spoken too, and then his response was combative and not very reassuring. Any good social player would have picked up immediately that he wasn't in on the plan with his whole heart.


I'm not sure who came first hosting games, you or Tribe, but you are both nefarious! - CTGirl

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parathor 250 desperate attention whore postings
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11-03-11, 12:10 PM (EST)
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7. "RE: S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"
I agree 100% that the other tribemates should have picked up on it. They missed easy tell-tale signs, as you suggested. For other instances:

- Dawn should have told someone on her own tribe. She's culpable in the collapse. Doing nothing is akin to pulling the trigger herself.
- Cochran should have suggested having the Whitney-idol for himself... or come back with "yeah, they're going to target me! They don't think I'm honest! Quick, give me the idol!" Bam, saves himself 3 more days, still has the 75% chance of having an Upolu get sent home and him riding the hero crest to the end.
- Jim should have picked up on the clues... he's a poker player! Read the opponents!
- Ozzy, as the hero/leader/crafter of the plan, should have put himself on the line again to save someone else. He would have drawn the votes to himself by not having the immunity necklace, forced the tie, and endeared himself even more to the potential jurors. It's easy to ask others to pull a rock when you yourself don't have to do that. If he had stepped up, it would have erased any doubts anyone else had.
- Whitney could have said something, sometime...

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PepeLePew13 24731 desperate attention whore postings
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11-03-11, 12:13 PM (EST)
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8. "RE: S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"
*stands and cheers KOB*

Well said... I said the same kind of thing in the East Coast Spoiler thread, but you put it into so much better terms, KOB. Cochran doesn't owe his tribe one single thing - most of them treated him like complete sh!t, so why should he be loyal to these guys? They've ripped him repeatedly in front of others.

Horrible, horrible tribal dynamics. Ozzy was so clueless that he had no idea that the tribe was working to get Elyse out. That shows you all you need to know about his gameplay ability, along with his constant berating of Cochran.

Parathor... the people I'd like to see leave the game now are Ozzy, Jim and Whitney for their classless beratings of Cochran who was never made to feel welcome in their tribe in the first place. Jim had it wrong -- Cochran isn't the coward, he is the one who decided to make a bold move (even if it wasn't the best move), how can one be a "coward" for wanting to improve his chances of furthering himself in the game? Jim, Keith, et al, all did the 'safe' move even if it meant losing out by a purple rock. That's stupid.

What could Ozzy have done differently?
He's certainly not blameless. He could have offered the idol to Cochran instead of Whitney. He could have had Jim sell the plan (he's a salesman! AND plays poker! TOTALLY the better choice!)

But Ozzy has not given any indication that he thinks Cochran is worth having around. His only intention of giving Cochran the idol during the TC that he got voted out was so he could bash Cochran publicly to the Upolus! By trashing Cochran openly, Ozzy showed that he doesn't value Cochran as a player and saw him as an expendible piece of the puzzle -- so why should Cochran feel indebted to him?

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emydi 13669 desperate attention whore postings
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11-03-11, 12:46 PM (EST)
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9. "RE: S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"
what you all say about why C did it are debatable and interesting but what he did was so stupid--no way he wins. He had a better chance with Savaii
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11-04-11, 12:24 PM (EST)
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47. "RE: S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"
I think Cochran has a good shot at winning. Ozzy wants someone from Savaii to win. I think if Cochran makes it, Cochran wins.


Samboobree, brought to life by Arkie


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11-03-11, 12:03 PM (EST)
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6. "RE: S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"
LAST EDITED ON 11-03-11 AT 01:27 PM (EST)

KO wrote:
-------------------
"Ozzy not only could have done a better job of trying to learn more about the other tribe, he could have done a better job of knowing his own tribe.

He knew them on the surface, but do you think he realized how fragile Dawn was or that she was contemplating flipping too since she felt like she was on the outside? He had no clue, because he has no social game."...

"Is Cochran a good actor? He was the only one at the RI challenge that appeared to be keeping a distance from the other Savaii. Everyone else was showing with their body language that they were rooting for Ozzy. The whole tribe gave it away, and Upolu was watching. This made Cochran's job all the harder and Coach laid it out to him exactly as it went down, because Coach had been observing.

If Cochran is such a bad actor, then why couldn't Ozzy tell that he wasn't really with Savaii? Because Ozzy was in his own world, didn't care enough to observe the body language, the tells. Even Jim the poker player should have been able to observe Cochran when they discussed the rock pulling and is everybody with me crap, he couldn't tell that Cochran was flipping? Please. Cochran was a good actor in Savaii but a bad actor in Upolu? It depends on who was paying attention, and we know who did."
---------------------


^^^^THIS

There is plenty of blame that can be spread for the demise of Savaii. A plan is only as good as its implementation. And as we saw it was POORLY implemented.
- By Ozzie at camp(all season) (not knowing his tribe and their potential actions beyond superficially)
- By Ozzy at RI w/Christine(where he did nothing (where in this case Less is not More).
- By Ozzie at the Duel (where he stumbled and mumbled...where Less is More).
- By Savaii (minus Cochran...where they openly cheered Ozzy on).
- By Cochran at his tete-a-tete w/Coach (pathetic infiltration attempt).
- By Cochran in his game analysis...(the odds WERE w/Savaii and thus by default also w/Cochran).
- By Dawn who knew of Cochran's potential flip (but did nothing to re-direct the Savaii target vote..or re-direct the Savaii HII protection...either of which could have changed the TC outcome)
- By Savaii (not knowing or caring about one of their tribe...the entire season)
- By Savaii (not following thru on The Plan's details to ensure its success)

All of the above criteria involve failure of game playing abilities/tactics...and not failures of character or integrity. So selfishness in the game of Survivor is all but understood. The Coach understood it(tho he pretends otherwise), Ozzy understood it(tho he self denies it) and certainly Cochran understood it (he simply, foolishly showed it openly). There can be only one Sole Survivor. Kind of selfish isn't it?

I was astounded by how poorly the Savaii tribe behaved/reacted at the Duel. The Plan wasn't just a role for Ozzy to implement...or Cochran to implement. It needed every single one of the Savaii onboard. And that clearly wasn't the case. 'Out-To-Lunch' should have been the episode's title.

JP did his part to help Ozzy and Savaii by offering the acting opening at the Duel. He didn't have to but obviously it was in SEG/CBS best interests for the play-out of The Plan to occur. So much for JP supposedly not knowing what's going on at the camps.

Ultimately...after the double wins by Savaii in the Immunity Chal. they should have immediately thrown The Plan out the window...b/c the odds were now in their favor. Something any real 'student' of the game should have clearly realized.

As far as the reason for Cochran's ultimate betrayal of Savaii... The Coach simply filled Cochran's void in confidence and insecurities w/his(Coach's) own plan. And he did it in a way that was not very 'warrior-like'...by bullying. While clearly Cochran was bullied bigtime by Ozzy in E7, the Coach is just as guilty. As 'Parathor' so succinctly stated in post#53 of the East Coast thread:

"...and yet, he was bullied by Coach. "If you don't flip, then we pick rocks, and that's a terrible way to play this game." Seriously? Coach was willing to go that route and not switch, so he pushed Cochran into doing it for him? That's not bullying?"

Coach clearly became a student of the game w/that move. Cochran, though he might like to think he's a student of the game, clearly flunked both the Math exam on probability at TC and the Psych exam at his 'Intell' assignment w/Coach. As far as sympathies by Coach...please...he was playing Cochran the whole time. The Coach has only one person on his agenda..the Coach.

So blame?...there's enough of that to fill the anals of Survivor for quite some time.

Edit to change 'would' to 'could' ..."either of which could have changed the TC outcome"

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Brownroach 14241 desperate attention whore postings
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11-03-11, 01:53 PM (EST)
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13. "RE: S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"
the anals of Survivor

Where do we start? - there are so many of them.

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11-03-11, 01:32 PM (EST)
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10. "RE: S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"
This is really a moot point, to try and dissect what happened and to place blame? I can't believe that you are trying to "not blame" Cochroach for flipping on his tribe.....First of all, how do you know things that you point to were not tried and edited out. You, and we, have no clue what really went down by Ozzy, by Cochran, by any of the other Savaii's or Upolu's. We were not there, we weren't privy to it. We don't know what was tried and what was not, we only know what is edited "in".

"His tribe". Clearly Savaii was the tribe he was assigned to. Cochran "could" have made in roads that we didn't see, or not. Cochran used the "bully" angle to make in roads with Upolu...pathetic. Clearly, Cochroach was talked about every episode in consideration of who to boot, because he brought the least to the challenge table. That is not bullying, that is a fact.

It just seemed to Joe Q. Public that Ozzy came up with a way to save Cochran, to save them all by volunteering to go to RI. Sure, Christine would most likely have come to Savaii's way of thinking, but he included Cochroach. He wanted to save them ALL. They didn't know Chrisitine, they knew Cochran and they were willing to risk Ozzy going to save them all, Cochran included. If Ozzy or the tribe had shot this plan down, Cochran would have been solid toast. And, they all knew that.

Sure, would of, could of, should of. I don't think we are the one's to throw stones at the other members of that tribe, because you are sympathetic to Cochroach for flipping. As I said, we are not in the position to throw stones, just to come away with thoughts in reaction to how it was edited. Cochroach not taking a 5/7 shot to stay in the game seemed very selfish to me when everyone of his tribemates had discussed it with him and they had reached a mutual decision. Why didn't he just tell them what he would do, when they asked....because he has no backbone, nor is he a man of his word. If you respect people that play that way, then you are a fan. I am not.

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Brownroach 14241 desperate attention whore postings
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11-03-11, 01:50 PM (EST)
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12. "RE: S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"
Cochran used the "bully" angle to make in roads with Upolu...pathetic.

But I saw that as a credible double agent tactic. "Yes I want to flip because my tribe doesn't like me, they are mean to me, they bully me." You have to convince the other tribe you have a reason to want to come with them.

I saw Cochran as initially preferring to stay loyal to Savaii rather than flip to Upolu, but when Coach brought everything to a screeching halt and the reality of what was going to happen set in, he ultimately decided that he preferred even more to make sure he wasn't the one going home.

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KObrien_fan 8360 desperate attention whore postings
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11-03-11, 04:17 PM (EST)
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14. "RE: S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"
Are you talking to me FP? I did not once say that Cochran was not to blame for the downfall of the tribe, I did say that he is not the only one. There were many contributing factors as I pointed out. My main point is that Savaii has nobody to blame but themselves.

I also made the point that yes, what Cochran did was in fact selfish and wouldn't get him any closer to winning the million. After last nights episode I didn't care for any of the Savaii and how they acted, Cochran included.

Sure, would of, could of, should of. I don't think we are the one's to throw stones at the other members of that tribe, because you are sympathetic to Cochroach for flipping. As I said, we are not in the position to throw stones, just to come away with thoughts in reaction to how it was edited. Cochroach not taking a 5/7 shot to stay in the game seemed very selfish to me when everyone of his tribemates had discussed it with him and they had reached a mutual decision. Why didn't he just tell them what he would do, when they asked....because he has no backbone, nor is he a man of his word. If you respect people that play that way, then you are a fan. I am not.

Wow. First off, I didn't throw any stones, I wasn't using derogatory tones or calling someone an idiot for their choice or lack of action. Yet I notice you freely bash Cochran with your opinions and name calling.

Second of all, where did I say that what Cochran did was right or that I support what he did or respect what he did? Nowhere. I just said that I wasn't surprised by it and that they all have themselves to blame by not having a backup plan, not paying attention etc.

As you say, I was analyzing the edited version of the show and discussing it, that's what we do around here. You are correct, we are shown a small 45 minute piece of a 2/3 day period in time, we are seeing the story the editors want us to see. So if Ozzy did actually notice Cochran's body language and really did know that he was going to flip because he was paying attention and if he really did try all means possible to get info from Christine and/or to make Edna flip, my bad, I guess I should have assumed he did all that from the edit.

The purpose of my post was to re-emphasize the need to play the social game of Survivor and discuss how it looked like Savaii didn't do that. I thought we could discuss it calmly without name calling or deciding who is a bigger fan of the game you or I. I don't see how that is relevant to the conversation.


If you kick a dog 20 times and pet him nicely twice, are you surprised when he bites your hand off the next time you reach for him?

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Belle Book 3556 desperate attention whore postings
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11-03-11, 05:28 PM (EST)
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18. "RE: S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"
I'm not trying to avoid blaming Cochran for flipping on his tribe. That was a dumb move on his part, and he'll pay for it. I'm just trying to point out that the rest of Savaii -- including your beloved Ozzy -- shouldn't be left off the hook for contributing to Cochran's flipping by letting him know he was on the outs instead of trying to make him feel comfortable!


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PepeLePew13 24731 desperate attention whore postings
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11-03-11, 05:37 PM (EST)
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21. "RE: S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"
This is not pointed at FP or anyone else in particular... but I wonder how can anyone be a real fan of Ozzy after everything he's shown?

He's a terrible, terrible game player, a bad actor, spills that he's got the HII far too early (twice this season), a bully known to throw challenges just to dump on someone (see: Billy Garcia), been known to be excessively mean to people that he doesn't like (Billy - intentionally knocking him into the water, Cochran in this season), played a poor social game which in an indirect way cost his tribe dearly (flaunting his relationship with Elyse, bluntly making no effort to integrate Cochran in the tribe) and is an egomaniac.

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Belle Book 3556 desperate attention whore postings
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11-03-11, 07:50 PM (EST)
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25. "RE: S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"
Although I wasn't fond of Billy in Cook Islands, the rest of what you said I have to agree with. Which is why I was so irritated at Flowerpower for ignoring the fact that Ozzy's failure to even try to integrate Cochran in the tribe made Cochran so vulnerable to flipping, and that Ozzy's failure to be a good actor helped to ruin his whole plan! If Ozzy (and the rest of Savaii) had implemented the plan better and made a bigger effort to integrate Cochran into the tribe, Cochran would not have flipped.


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kiki_k 1444 desperate attention whore postings
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11-03-11, 08:46 PM (EST)
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26. "RE: S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"
The Apologia for Cochran is amusing.

I'm tired of the whole "your beloved Ozzy" meme being thrown around as an insult -- and it seems to always come from the pro-Cochran/anti-Ozzy people (and I'm pretty sure the anti-Ozzy feelings is what lead to the pro-Cochran viewpoint). Every single person on this board who "likes" Ozzy from a player standpoint admits that they do -- yet, the pro-Cochran/anti-Ozzy fans pretend they are completely unbiased.

The fact is, my recognition of Ozzy being able to walk the walk instead of merely talk the talk when it comes to challenges & providing food for his tribe (unlike, say like a Coach or Cochran who are nothing but talk ) doesn't mean I'm so head-over-heels for Ozzy that I can't see straight. Both FP & myself have stated, time & again, that Ozzy had a negative edit pre-merge until the 2nd half of episode 6.

The main problem for the pro-Cochran/anti-Ozzy people is that we were also able to see that the alleged "winners edit" that it was claimed Cochran was getting wasn't one -- at best it was a journey edit; at worse it was a villain edit. Yet we get raked over the coals for that even now when we've basically been proven right that we were just "too pro-Ozzy to see that Cochran had the winner's edit."

Furthermore, the fact that I'm not going to unrealistically tax Ozzy with being a psychic with Cochran isn't due to any "liking" I have of him. Cochran was 100% on board with the plan of Ozzy going to RI to "keep Savaii strong" and Ozzy asked him point blank after merge when they were discussing the votes if "everyone was sure about this."

And, people can play with semantics all they want and claim Cochran was never "saved" but the fact that someone is a secondary beneficiary instead of a primary beneficiary of a move (i.e., Jim lobbying for the Semhar & Elyse boots instead of Cochran for his own game and Ozzy volunteering to got to RI in Cochran's place for the "tribe" not specifically Cochran) does NOT equate to Cochran not benefiting. He wasn't exactly voted out, was he? It is pure pretzel logic & ingratitude on Cochran's part to claim otherwise. But he's proven himself ungrateful, so it isn't a surprise.

Furthermore, where is this "Ozzy mistreated Cochran" b.s. coming from other than vague accusations from Cochran -- who has proven himself to be a liar? We certainly didn't see it -- wanting to cut the weakest physical player pre-merge isn't "mistreatment" no matter how much Cochran whines about it. I saw Ozzy saying, very kindly, in his vote against Cochran at the Elsye boot TC "I hope you get that second chance, dude." Not such tough words from a guy who is mistreating you, IMO. (Recap on same episode where Cochran called Ozzy a "little b!tch" btw). I also say Ozzy step up & relieve Cochran from going to RI because he was too scared to face a middle-aged woman there. Gosh, what a monster! HOW could he have done that to Cochran!?!?! As for Jim calling Cochran a coward -- well, considering he was the only other Savaii member at risk if PROD had come into play, I think he had standing to make the accusation. Besides, the truth isn't "bullying."

Now, OTOH, we did see Coach treat Sierra like a dog in Tocantins and literally push Edna to her knees at the last tribe IC and we did see Brandon mercilessly & unfairly bully Mikalya for no other reason than he found her attractive, but now the pro-Cochran/anti-Ozzy people want us to see Coach & Brandon as the "great guys" who are "standing up for the poor little victim Cochran?" No thanks, I'll believe my lying eyes.

And how can anyone like Ozzy, someone asks? How can anyone NOT? Because, as I said, he has proven that he can stay calm & perform under pressure at challenges (and win) and has proven himself LOYAL to his tribe since Cook Islands, to FvF to this season (that's "walking the walk"). No one ever claimed his game was "perfect" because he does rely too much on "trust" and not enough on strategy (although he won the car & lost by only 1 vote in Cook Islands for the sole reason that some jurors thought he was "too young & irresponsible" for the million, which was b.s., as without him, there would have been no Aitu4 at merge).

I honestly believe that these kinds of questions, however, belong on Fanatics or Bashers, not here in spoilers, because really, what right does anyone have to question it here?

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Belle Book 3556 desperate attention whore postings
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11-03-11, 09:00 PM (EST)
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27. "RE: S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"
You're right about the fact that this question probably belongs on Fanatics or Bashers (more likely Bashers). Anyway, sorry I got you mad.

I guess I'll conclude by saying that even though Cochran should bear quite a bit of the blame for the fall of the Savaii Six, Ozzy shouldn't be let off the hook as it was his behavior earlier on before he got a better edit that sowed the seeds for Cochran's actions, and his own acting skills were terrible. Nor should the rest of Savaii -- even Dawn -- be let off the hook for their actions before, during and after the last pre-merge duel.


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kiki_k 1444 desperate attention whore postings
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11-03-11, 09:11 PM (EST)
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29. "RE: S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"
Trust me, Belle Book, it was just one straw in a barrage of "you just like Ozzy" snipes as a blanket dismissal of any positive Ozzy or negative Cochran comment that has been made by many, many on here.

You didn't get me "mad" (I'm quite sane); I'm just frustrated with the unfairness when there is an obvious agenda by many (not all) who make the accusation. I chose to answer it here because it was convenient & since this entire thread is OT to spoilers anyway, it seemed like the right place to do it.

The entirely of my comment wasn't directed solely to you & I tried to make that clear (but if I didn't I apologize).

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Belle Book 3556 desperate attention whore postings
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11-04-11, 10:19 AM (EST)
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43. "RE: S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"
I meant "mad" as in angry, not "mad" as in insane. (chuckles a bit.) And I think we were both frustrated with what we perceived as unfair prejudice against someone else.

I just read an article on Reality News Online which might help explain the problem here: Keith, Ozzy, Jim, Whitney and even Dawn indeed might have been perfectly pleasant to Cochran. But people aren't great actors when it comes to controlling their emotions, and it was clear to Cochran that they didn't like him. Regardless of their efforts to pretend to be nice, the true feelings of most of Savaii were clear to him.

The basic problem seems to be a personality or values clash. Most of Savaii are challenge junkies. Cochran ... isn't. He's more of a strategy junkie. It's kind of like what happened on Sook Jai with Shii Ann. Most of the people might have been perfectly nice to her but Shii Ann was probably different from people like Penny and Erin and Penny might have been unable to conceal the fact that she didn't like Shii Ann. This made Shii Ann vulnerable to offers from Chuay Gahn, whom she probably felt closer to. Sook Jai paid the price there, aided in part by a fake merge, and the same thing will happen here.


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PepeLePew13 24731 desperate attention whore postings
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11-03-11, 09:04 PM (EST)
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28. "RE: S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"
This is a thread called "Survivor the social game aspect - the Fall of the Savaii" so it fits in here.

You say Ozzy can stay calm and perform under pressure and that he's loyal to his tribe. He completely went ballistic at the end of that challenge a week ago. Nobody else did. He behaved as a jerk in Cook Islands during the second episode challenge and petulantly dumped Billy into the water just because he didn't like him. THAT is bullying. Ozzy intentionally threw the challenge rather than to keep Billy around, which isn't being completely loyal to his tribe (yes I know most of the others agreed to the plan, but Ozzy pushed it).

Ozzy bullied Cochran. It wasn't "vague" - it was clearly out in the open when Ozzy continued to rail against Cochran's performance in last week's IC later on at TC and again at Redemption Island. You say that Ozzy "saved" Cochran and volunteered to go to RI. Who in their right mind would willingly go to RI, tell me? I wouldn't. If sending Cochran to RI was the better game play for the tribe, then do it whether Cochran likes it or not. Keith didn't think it was a good move for Ozzy to go there.

Fine, I agree Cochran is the weakest player in the game, physically. So? Boot him, or keep him around to help with the votes. But that doesn't mean he deserves to be treated poorly or dumped on all the time. Plenty of useless challenge players have been kept around long into the game but never treated like a whipping boy. Thong Granny (Kim J) was useless in the challenges (at least until the final two ICs) and she didn't do much strategic-wise, but still made F2 in Africa.

And for what (little, I'm sure in your mind) it's worth, I don't like Cochran either. I don't think he's a good game player and I never thought he might be a winner of the game. I never thought of Ozzy as a winner either.

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kiki_k 1444 desperate attention whore postings
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11-03-11, 09:25 PM (EST)
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30. "RE: S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"
See, I never claimed Ozzy had a winning edit either. Why do you say I did? Do you just presume it as a way to dismiss my opinions on this? Yep, you sure do.

We are going to have to agree to disagree on Ozzy "bullying" Cochran (and Ozzy did try to vote him out so I don't get that point; he was stymied by Jim on the Semhar vote & blindsided by him on the Elyse -- and furthermore, Ozzy was HONEST with Cochran about it -- it wasn't malicious, it was the move Ozzy thought was best to keep a strong tribe. I suppose Cochran should have been coddled for being a complete & abject failure at the challenges. Trying to say "Ozzy should have voted him out" in face of what happened is just misrepresenting everything that went down and does not prove Ozzy was "mean" to him about it).
But I will add that characterizing Ozzy's show at RI as "bullying" when Cochran agreed to it before hand is just ridiculous.

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PepeLePew13 24731 desperate attention whore postings
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11-03-11, 09:34 PM (EST)
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31. "RE: S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"
LAST EDITED ON 11-04-11 AT 09:07 AM (EST)


I didn't say that you did.

I'm just pointing out that I didn't support either Cochran or Ozzy as a winner - just because I wasn't supporting Ozzy didn't mean that I was supporting Cochran because of your repeated "pro-Cochran/anti-Ozzy people" statement. No need for the argumentative chip on your shoulder that has been present the last while. ("a way to dismiss my opinions on this? Yep you sure do." Really?)

Cochran agreed to the plan to only because it kept him in the game for three more days but Ozzy could just have said that Cochran had the HII and bounced him (which was the plan) but then Ozzy kept going on and on about Cochran's failure in the IC (which wasn't part of the plan) which was designed to make Cochran look bad. Cochran shows a lot of victim behaviour (I see it a lot in my line of work) so I wouldn't be surprised if Cochran is just nodding at whatever Ozzy says to get him off the hook, and he was in no position to disagree with the plan - if he says no way, Cochran's the one going to RI.

Oh, and thanks to Squid below, there was also the time that Ozzy mockingly asked Cochran how to spell his name while schmoozing with Elyse. That's another example of Ozzy's in-the-open put-downs of Cochran which doesn't fit with your suggestion that it's all hidden or "coming only from Cochran's viewpoint".

Again as I said earlier, I don't care much for Cochran and he's deserving of being booted much earlier than now but I don't think he is deserving of the rough verbal treatment from the others on his original tribe.

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Modesty 65 desperate attention whore postings
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11-04-11, 06:40 AM (EST)
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39. "RE: S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"
>See, I never claimed Ozzy had
>a winning edit either. Why
>do you say I did?
>Do you just presume it
>as a way to dismiss
>my opinions on this? Yep,
>you sure do.
>
>We are going to have to
>agree to disagree on Ozzy
>"bullying" Cochran (and Ozzy did
>try to vote him out
>so I don't get that
>point; he was stymied by
>Jim on the Semhar vote
>& blindsided by him on
>the Elyse -- and furthermore,
>Ozzy was HONEST with Cochran
>about it -- it wasn't
>malicious, it was the move
>Ozzy thought was best to
>keep a strong tribe. I
>suppose Cochran should have been
>coddled for being a complete
>& abject failure at the
>challenges. Trying to say "Ozzy
>should have voted him out"
>in face of what happened
>is just misrepresenting everything that
>went down and does not
>prove Ozzy was "mean" to
>him about it).
>But I will add that characterizing
>Ozzy's show at RI as
>"bullying" when Cochran agreed to
>it before hand is just
>ridiculous.

Hi Kiki... you're not alone sweetheart <3

The only Savaii I saw being mean to Cochran, was Keith. It wasn't even that mean, he was just calling him out on the fact that he was too gutless to go to redemption island and take on a 40 y/o woman. (For the record I'm a 40 y/o woman too and I will admit - we're pretty damn tough!)

What I wondered though, was did you notice how incredibly shielded Ozzy was from all the negativity surrounding Savaii in that last episode? Ozzy's perceived heroism could have been completely lost had he been singled out as a bully. He wasn't. Cochran explicitly stated Jim and Keith - more than once. He didn't get an arrogant (winning the challenge) confessional - that was given to Jim. He was strangely hidden in the second half of the episode.

I have no doubt any confessional he made during that time would have ended up being contradicted by the edit (since they went down in flames). So why shield him from the negativity? They've certainly let him cop it in the past. I have two thoughts on why.

1. He's the next boot and they want to keep his redemption edit in tact.... see him off with some dignity. They didn't care about that in Micronesia though now did they? And... James Clement in HvV anyone? So although this is possible, it would be a generous gift that's not expected.

2. They're trying to create us an underdog or two to root for. Upolu are not popular - I'm talking about in the general public here. Argue what you want - they're far less liked than Savaii.

3. There's a chance of resolution between him and Cochran. For this to happen Ozzy would have to be seen beyond next episode - which I admit is unlikely. His tone was measured and hurt, rather than angry, in the promos for next week. That's stark contrast to the anger we've seen. He gives a hysterical laugh to Cochran after the vote. Not angry so much as perplexed.

I didn't mean this to be so long. Sorry... hope you get all the way to the end... it may be a ray of light for you.

xo


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11-04-11, 10:02 PM (EST)
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65. "RE: S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"
Pepe, I never saw Ozzy as a bully. Just honest.

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11-04-11, 10:22 PM (EST)
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66. "RE: S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"
Once again... Ozzy bullied Billy in Cook Islands. What do you call that act where he petulantly dumped Billy into the water during the IC? Also, Dawn said the tribe wasn't nice to Cochran - Ozzy was the de facto leader of the tribe along with Jim, but Jim fought for Cochran more than Ozzy did. Ozzy mocked Cochran in front of at least one other person - a bullying tactic to make Cochran fear for his status in the game.

At the very least, Ozzy has consistently shown that he's not above putting other people down for his enjoyment.

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11-03-11, 11:47 PM (EST)
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34. "RE: S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"
Kiki, I love your spunk! Your posts always crack me up....wish I could tell it like it is like you do.

I think it's 2 different things to "like" and root for Ozzy (which I really do....and my young son adores him) vs. to objectively admire his game play (which I don't from a strategic and social aspect). That's why these last few episodes were so emotional and frustrating to many of us -- they teased us that Ozzy was finally making a game changing, strategic/bold move that would redeem him, but then it was blown. There still was that rainbow/beach shot of him at the end, so I suppose there's hope, but it's not looking good right now.

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40. "RE: S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"
Dawn thinks Cochran was treated poorly by her tribe. She was there. You weren't. I don't doubt for a minute that he was treated badly. And no one deserves that. If he sucks at challenges, vote him out, but don't keep him around and berate him for it. (And of course, Brownroach provided some great evidence of that bullying too.)

I don't have a pro-Cochran bias. I think he's a kind of pathetic in a lot of ways, but at the same time I do think he's making some good moves to get to the end. I don't think he's a journey player because he's not going to get redeemed. He's either going to win, get to the final and lose (most likely in my opinion), or get revenged upon by those he betrayed.

I do not understand the hatred for Cochran by some people on this board. It's over the top in my opinion and I'm really shocked by it. Didn't we all know a Cochran in high school - the nerdy kid who always got picked last? Maybe some of us were Cochran. Maybe some of us have a kid who's like Cochran. I realize he's not a kid anymore, but how about some empathy for a guy who almost certainly went through that and may be acting the way he is because of those experiences?

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11-03-11, 01:34 PM (EST)
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11. "RE: S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"
(Cochran) was the only one at the RI challenge that appeared to be keeping a distance from the other Savaii. Everyone else was showing with their body language that they were rooting for Ozzy. The whole tribe gave it away, and Upolu was watching. This made Cochran's job all the harder and Coach laid it out to him exactly as it went down, because Coach had been observing.

Theoretically they were supposed to root for Ozzy. The ploy was that everyone had wanted Cochran out, but he played the idol to get rid of Ozzy, and now they were mad at Cochran.

But I agree they weren't very convincing at whatever it was they were doing. They pretty much telegraphed that the whole thing was a fabrication.

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11-03-11, 04:22 PM (EST)
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15. "RE: S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"
True, but Ozzy did make the statement that he thought at least one of them was in on it and that this is now a 1-1 game all for themselves. If they had reacted less for Ozzy and more nondescript, possibly could have worked a plan B or C from it.


I'm not sure who came first hosting games, you or Tribe, but you are both nefarious! - CTGirl

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11-03-11, 05:36 PM (EST)
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20. "RE: S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"
That's right, I forgot he said that. I didn't really get the point of insinuating that others were in on it.
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11-03-11, 05:06 PM (EST)
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16. "RE: S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"
I suppose that because Cochran did give the idol back to Ozzie Savaii felt safe that C wouldn't flip but whether or not they should have kept a closer eye on him is up for discussion. They could have lied to him about who was getting the idol just in case BUT, to me, the biggest blunder was DAWN. What was she thinking when she kept C's flipping to herself? She had to know it would be the beginning of the end. As others have said she could have saved them by switching the idol to Keith or Jim. At least they would have had a 50/50 chance and seeing that Keith was the nastiest to Cochran they may have figured it would be him. Dawn screwed her tribe and I wonder if they'll find out. She said she came to the conclusion that she liked her tribe so why did she destroy them. I can see Cochran doing what he did because of who he is but why Dawn unless she was flipping also? Cochran, in his own mind, had a reason to flip so imo Dawn gets the worst player award for the episode and maybe season.
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11-03-11, 05:12 PM (EST)
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17. "RE: S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"
I agree that Dawn made a terrible move by not outing Cochran's intentions. However, she may have been worried that would blow up in her face since Cochran could tell everyone that she was also going to flip.
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11-03-11, 05:29 PM (EST)
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19. "RE: S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"
Dawn is a big fan of Survivor, so I wonder if it was in the back of her mind about what happened with Alina in Nicaragua - Na'Onka stole the food and let Alina into the loop, but Alina was the one who was immediately targeted and blamed when the whole thing blew up and she was booted at the next TC.

That hesitation from Dawn might have been caused by trying to sort out what's the right move, and by the time it became clear what she should do, a lot of time had passed and maybe she felt she was better off not saying anything rather than make it appear she sat on this for some time (thus showing her tribe that she at least 'considered' it).

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11-03-11, 06:15 PM (EST)
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22. "RE: S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"
I understand that but she could have said she overheard Cochran tell Coach about the idol or that she saw his hesitation re the rocks and confronted him and got the feeling he was going to flip. She could always deny anything Cochran said or say she pretended she was considering flipping just to get the truth out of him. The stakes were too high for her not to tell them and she knew the second she won immunity she wasn't going to flip. She still gets my vote for the worst game play or not play. By not telling she was sure to go home and soon. By telling she had a chance.
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11-03-11, 06:22 PM (EST)
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23. "RE: S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"
Yeah, she could have done one of those things. But Dawn doesn't strike me as the type that would lie so blatantly.

Still, I totally hear what you're saying. It would probably have been better to let everyone know what Cochran was thinking.

Though I don't think Dawn is in a terrible position. She won't be first on the chopping block - Ozzy and Jim will. That'll give her time to exploit the cracks in the Upolo alliance. Hello, Edna. Hello, fellow Mormon Rick...

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11-03-11, 06:35 PM (EST)
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24. "RE: S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"
Dawn and Rick are Mormons? Hmmmmmmm I still think she'll go after Ozzie and Jim because there really aren't any cracks and mainly because she is good at challenges unlike Edna.
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11-03-11, 11:05 PM (EST)
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32. "RE: S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"
5cats, there was an Insider Clip of Dawn and Rick bonding over the Mormon thing in the Insider clips. Brownroach posted it in another thread if you want to check it out.
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11-03-11, 11:54 PM (EST)
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35. "RE: S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"
Thanks, didn't see it I guess but then again I like to avoid all the religious bonding in Survivor. I don't think it will keep Dawn from being voted off as Rick has no power. If it was Coach that was Mormon it might be a different story. Wish they'd leave their religions home as it could be a game changer if you weren't christian. If you were in Coach's group would you pretend to pray to avoid the wrath of Coach or just sit alone while they prayed. You would take the chance of not being trusted if you didn't believe in their god. Sorry, going a little off point but wondered about this scenerio.
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11-04-11, 00:08 AM (EST)
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36. "RE: S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"
Yes, I'm definitely with you on that. I hate how Survivor seems to be exploiting the religious stuff in recent seasons.
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11-03-11, 11:33 PM (EST)
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33. "RE: S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"
While we're on the subject of a social game...I hate to say this, but Coach is actually doing a pretty impressive job when it comes to social/persuasive skills this season -- especially when you consider his less than warm welcome in Ep. 1 vs. all the good will that Ozzy had at the start. Just a few examples: Getting his enemies voted out first...Convincing Rick to side with him on the Mikayla vote.....making Edna feel she's invaluable....managing Brandon....manipulating Cochran's intellectual ego and finding his hot button this past episode. I also think that Sophie's doing a masterful job of managing all the various personalities on her team. Right now, you have to like those two's chances to go far....which I guess supports the argument that a good social game typically trumps challenge strength.

Re the Ozzy and Cochran discussion: Can't we all agree to disagree? I think there's room here for everyone's opinions.

In hindsight, the scene where Ozzy was hanging in the hammock with his girlfriend and mockingly asked Cochran how to spell his name (implying he was going to vote him out next) should have been a tipoff how their 2 fates were intertwined. It's almost Shakespearean in the way it's worked out.

That's why I love KOB's spec that the two meet up again on RI... I think the majority of fans out there are hoping that Ozzy kicks the weasel's butt!

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11-04-11, 00:14 AM (EST)
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37. "RE: S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"
I keep wondering what alien entity is inhabiting Coach's body. Where is the loonybins Coach, the Coach that tells jawdroppingly ludicrous, self-aggrandizing stories, the Coach we all love to despise? Okay he has shown up briefly with the Tai Chi and the over the top prayer circles, but on the whole this incarnation actually seems to have a handle on what's going on.
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11-04-11, 03:28 PM (EST)
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53. "RE: S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"
LOL, I've been thinking the same thing. We know Coach is still telling his crazy stories and Dragonslayer stuff, but they're choosing not to edit him as the court jester, so he must go far. It's a very different edit than his last 2 times around....and to be fair, he really does seem to be playing an improved social/strategic game.

P.S. As I recall, his one Tai Chi scene was actually very nice with a cool sunlight effect...it kind of reminded me of the star of david thing on a smaller scale. Definitely getting the vibe that Coach is F3.

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11-04-11, 00:22 AM (EST)
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38. "RE: S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"
P.S. This Insider Clip pretty much sums up everything we've been talking about in this thread re social game:

- Coach is playing a surprisingly good social game this season -- esp. his insights into how to win someone over
- Why Cochran ultimately decided to side with Upolu vs. Savali....i.e., no one on S was talking end game with him and he thinks he has an F4 deal with Coach/Sophie/Albert.
- If only Dawn or Ozzy or someone thought to give Cochran more reassurances.

This clip is a highly edited package (vs. simple confessional), so must have almost made it into the show but been cut at the very end due to time. Wish they had shown it because it helps make a little more sense why Cochran flipped.

http://www.cbs.com/shows/survivor/video/2163765698/survivor-south-pacific-offer-final-four

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41. "RE: S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"

>This clip is a highly edited
>package (vs. simple confessional), so
>must have almost made it
>into the show but been
>cut at the very end
>due to time. Wish they
>had shown it because it
>helps make a little more
>sense why Cochran flipped.

I'd say this firmly puts an end to Cochran's meager chances of winning this season - if he was a finalist, you betcha they would have put this into the package that we saw on TV. At the absolute best, Cochran would be out at F4.

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11-04-11, 02:48 PM (EST)
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50. "RE: S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"
Pepe, I was thinking the same thing. The fact that this was left on the cutting room floor doesn't bode well for Cochran's long term (F3) prospects. They did have the Dawn crying scene that added a lot of sympathy for Cochran, but maybe that was more about positioning Dawn vs. just Cochran.

I also wonder, could Albert/Sophie/Cochran/Coach actually be the F4? We always say that strategies revealed don't succeed -- perhaps this is an example of this in reverse, and they didn't want to give it away? I wouldn't be surprised at all if they are the F4. Coach is certainly getting a great edit and playing a much improved game this time around.

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11-04-11, 03:24 PM (EST)
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52. "RE: S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"
Coach is certainly getting a great edit

Well then, here's another possibility: they didn't show it because Coach does *not* bring Cochran to the F4, and showing it would have cast something of a bad light on Coach when he boots Cochran later prior to the F4.

I don't believe Coach plans to bring Cochran to F4. He only said it to ensure that Cochran would flip for the merge vote. He's been nurturing his core six all along, and I think his plan is to just pagong the Savaiis, including Cochran at some point.

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11-04-11, 04:19 PM (EST)
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55. "RE: S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"
Yes, I tend to agree with you on this, BR.

Just posted in the clues thread that to me, watching the Coach/Sophie/Albert core alliance is now the most interesting part of the stratgegic/social game, esp. since it looks like we're in a Pagonging stage.

If I were Coach, I would not want to be sitting next to Sophie and Albert in the F3. Coach has obviously been cultivating relationships like Edna, Brandon and Rick, more so than Albert and Sophie, so the key now in terms of jury management is how will Coach finesse it when he has to boot them? (Presuming that's what happens). Or will he mix it up and try to bring one of them farther and ditch someone like Albert or Sophie instead?

I would guess that Edna/Rick/Brandon will hold more of a grudge against someone like Coach, who they trusted and felt they had an alliance with, vs. someone like Albert/Sophie. So it will be interesting to see how it plays out. As Dabo mentioned, now we're in the jury management phase where courting votes is key.

I do think Coach will humor Cochran and make sure not to throw him to the wolves too soon.

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57. "RE: S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"
I agree -- if Coach boots Brandon, Edna and Rick before Albert & Sophie, they'll hold a real grudge against Coach and he would cost them their votes, which they would give to either Albert or Sophie.


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42. "RE: S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"
If only Dawn or Ozzy or someone thought to give Cochran more reassurances.

Dawn or Ozzy could have made the move of conferring II to Cochran at Tribal so he would have had no more worries about drawing the rock, but of course that didn't happen.

Cochran's insecurities are central to how he is perceived by others. While it is good he has self-awareness of his limitations, his tendency to dwell negatively on them is self-defeating. The smart player would be trying to play on his/her strengths while diminishing his/her weaknesses. That first day when he went ahead and stripped down to go frollicking in the surf, that was a great move, the sort of thing he should have kept doing.

Unfortunately, an inferiority complex is exactly the sort of thing that attracts bullies, so I've no doubt Cochran has put up with a fair amount of getting picked on throughout his life. (And outside of bullying, it can also become a source of frustration to friends and family, negativity is such a buzzkill.) Cochran is still in school though, still maturing and coming into his own, because adulthood isn't a 21st birthday present it is an ongoing lifelong process. Survivor just isn't a very good place for growing up.

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11-04-11, 10:26 AM (EST)
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44. "RE: S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"
Survivor just isn't a very good place for growing up.

Yeah, exactly. That's why I don't get the hatred of Cochran. I feel bad for him because he's obviously immature and has some growing up to do. The vitriol toward him is disturbing to me.

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11-04-11, 10:53 AM (EST)
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45. "RE: S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"
Good take Dabo, on the Cochran conundrum. He's just not yet ready for PrimeTime. That's not to say that he isn't responsible for his choices and actions...we all are...including those who choose poorly in interactions with him.

Life is over all too quickly to waste it with negativity and selfishness...on anyone's part. I'm thinking Colleen(S1) had it right. In the big picture, Survivor is but a small pixel.

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11-04-11, 12:48 PM (EST)
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48. "RE: S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"
I don't get why there is a question about the way Ozzy's tribe acted at redemption. I thought the idea was that Cochran found the idol and bounced Ozzy on his own, so Cochran was on the outs with his tribe. If this is true, of course the rest of the tribe would cheer on Ozzy at Redemption Island. Only Cochran wanted him out.

Also, I've been thinking about the Cochran and Ozzy criticism. I agree that Ozzy is not the best socially. However, he does well in challenges, he is a provider, he supported Dawn early on, he made a big move for his tribe, and he at least tried to be strategic, even though it failed.

Cochran, on the other hand, first set himself up for criticism by asking to be called "Cochran". He let everyone know that he was a fan of the game. But, all we heard from him was talk. He didn't want to be voted out first to a girl. He was only shown working around camp when it seemed he was at risk of getting voted out. Other than chopping coconuts, he was not shown providing. He was pathetic at all challenges. The main complaint I have though, is that he talked a good game, especially in confessionals, but WE WERE NEVER SHOWN ANY GAME BY HIM. All strategies which benefited him were created by someone else. No, I don't think he should be bullied, but I think he build himself up so much and has done nothing. Also, if he had been on the Upolu tribe all along, I think Coach would have yelled at him for being uncoachable. He only is nice to him because he needs him.

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dabo 25344 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Playboy Centerfold"

11-04-11, 01:14 PM (EST)
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49. "RE: S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"
At the Arena Cochran did a good job of staying in character even while Ozzy was over-selling the weasel Secret Agent play, and back at camp Cochran went ahead on his mission even though it wasn't his idea to begin with, it was his mission given him by Ozzy. I'm not criticizing them for how they acted at the Arena, except that Ozzy did a horrible acting job.

How Savaii has acted throughout the game, there was an In crowd and Cochran could never catch a break with them no matter what he said or did; Cochran and Dawn were Out crowd always, and Jim found a middle ground between In and Out where he could play the game. Keith was still harping on Cochran when they came back from Tribal and Ozzy was gone to Redemption, should have just accepted that what's done is done and looked ahead to what needed to be done, where do we go from here.

The Secret Agent thing, even if Ozzy had given an Emmy winning performance, was never that great an idea anyway no matter who got the assignment. Upolu was going to go into the merge expecting the Savaii to try something, oh gosh that was quick here it is!

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SquidProQuo 2281 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Seventeen Magazine Model"

11-04-11, 03:02 PM (EST)
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51. "RE: S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"
The irony in all of this is that if Savali had just sent Cochran to RI, they would have gained Christine and more likely come out ahead at the merge. Or, like you said, if they gave Cochran the HII or made him some F4 promise, he would have felt secure and stayed loyal. Oh well....coulda, shoulda, woulda.

Dabo, I agree with you and Corvis about Cochran being very young. I do think, though, that even at 50 he'll still be a neurotic, insecure Woody Allen type . That's why I don't get the comparisons that some people are making between Cochran's and Sandra's game. The big difference with Sandra is that she had street smarts. She wasn't afraid of people and she would stare you down and play head games with the best of them (including Russell).......vs. Cochran who doesn't have a poker face and just melted when Coach called him on the ruse. Street smarts and good people instincts go a long way in this game, and unfortunately Cochran just doesn't have them.

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Brownroach 14241 desperate attention whore postings
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11-04-11, 03:36 PM (EST)
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54. "RE: S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"
LAST EDITED ON 11-04-11 AT 03:56 PM (EST)

if they gave Cochran the HII...he would have felt secure and stayed loyal.

They couldn't do that -- the hii had to get played, hopefully by the correct target, so as to cancel the tie vote and send an Upolu home. Of the non-immune people Cochran was *least* likely to be the target, so it would have been stupid to give it to him.

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SquidProQuo 2281 desperate attention whore postings
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11-04-11, 04:36 PM (EST)
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56. "RE: S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"
Not exactly. It was more stupid to give it to Whitney (another "least" likely target) when Dawn pretty much knew that Cochran had flipped and when Coach told Ozzy to his face that he was on to their ruse vs. going along with Plan A knowing that there were major doubts.

Upoli didn't play their HII because they had inside info, right? So what some have suggested is that if Dawn warrned her tribe that Cochran was thinking of flipping before he spilled his guts and told the other tribe that Rick (or whomever) was the target....they could have offered the HII to Cochran as a good faith gesture/to reassure him about pulling rocks and that might have been enough to keep him loyal and perhaps he wouldn't have even accepted the HII. Or alternatively, Dawn could have warned her tribe that Cochran flipped, then they could have adjusted their target vs. wasting the HII. It's hard to say if either would have worked out, esp. knowing now that Cochran had a supposed F4 pact, but certainly Savali could have played it smarter. (In fact, they could have offered Cochran an F4 pact.)

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dabo 25344 desperate attention whore postings
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11-04-11, 04:55 PM (EST)
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58. "RE: S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"
Upolu didn't play their HII because they knew Savaii had covered the wrong target, they could afford to let Savaii make the move first.

Would have been funny if Savaii had covered Keith, Upolu had covered Rick, no votes counted from the first vote. Go to second vote, you cannot vote for Ozzy, Dawn, Keith or Rick. Wonder if either tribe figured out a secondary target for that situation? Second vote ends in a tie, do you have a third vote since the first vote was essentially nullified?

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Brownroach 14241 desperate attention whore postings
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11-04-11, 05:13 PM (EST)
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59. "RE: S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"
Giving the hii to Cochran was the most valueless option, even if it reassured him he wouldn't get a rock. It defeats the primary purpose of using the idol -- to bounce someone from the opposing tribe. That was the ideal outcome of the first vote, then it would never even get to rock picking.

Any one of the other three non-immune targets was a better choice than Cochran -- he was the one person they could be sure Upolu wouldn't vote for.

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Slider 29 desperate attention whore postings
DAW Level: "Beauty Pageant Celebrity Judge"

11-04-11, 06:33 PM (EST)
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60. "RE: S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"
If Cochran was worried about the rocks and he had told Upolu Whitney would get the idol, why didn't he share this with with Savaii? They then could have given the idol to Jim or Keith (50-50 shot they would have been right).
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Belle Book 3556 desperate attention whore postings
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11-04-11, 08:18 PM (EST)
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61. "RE: S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"
I think it was because Cochran's fear of the purple rock isn't the only reason he flipped -- although it certainly was one of them and the reason that EPMB chose to show. I think two other reasons were just as important.

The first is that Cochran could get along better with most of Upolu than he could with most of Savaii. Most of Savaii are young and cool or at least could relate to the "cool kids" mentality as Jim probably can. Cochran is a nerd. Period. He isn't part of the "cool kid" crowd and never will be. And he probably can't relate to the "cool kid" crowd. He can relate more to the strategic people -- who are mostly on Upolu. And maybe like Jonathan, he wanted the strategic people to win more than the "cool kids" -- even Dawn.

And although the "cool kid" crowd might have been pleasant to Cochran and tried to be nice, the fact is that they probably can't relate very well to him either. They're more focused on challenges -- especially Ozzy. And as I said, Cochran was focused more on strategy. The "cool kids" might have tried to be nice to him but people aren't as great as actors as they might think they are and we all know how good an actor Ozzy is. So they couldn't really conceal the fact that they didn't like Cochran all that much, especially Ozzy. And Cochran knew it. Thus bitterness probably played a role as well.


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samboohoo 17075 desperate attention whore postings
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11-04-11, 12:23 PM (EST)
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46. "RE: S23 Survivor the social game aspect- The fall of the Savaii six"
Agree with you - almost completely.

Cochran is a student of the game. I don't think he thought he had no shot of winning.

In all the years I really can't remember how many tribes of 6 have actually really stayed together until the end. At some point someone knows they are at the bottom, and at some point someone has to make a move.

As much as the Upolos seem to be a strong 6, we also know there is a crack - especially after the division among them in keeping Edna over Mikayla.

Coach and Ozzy are still, IMO, big targets. Bigger than Cochran.



Samboobree, brought to life by Arkie


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