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"I Blame Hantz"
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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12-19-11, 07:36 PM (EST)
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"I Blame Hantz"
With Sandra winning HvV despite seeing all her plans fail, Fabio winning without having a clue of what was going on most of the time, Rob winning S21 without opposition and now Sophie being Sole Survivor without making a sole move, we see that the strategic aspect of Survivor is disappearing.

I blame Russell for that because he did so many crazy, unnecessary moves that he gave an excuse to the jury to punish the strategic players. The Samoan jury's bitterness was entirely justified but now players are afraid of making any move and, when they become jurors, they feel justified to vote against the one that duped them.

Of course, bringing back two of the most moronic players ever and mixing them with a religious freak didn't help but give me time and I'll pin that on Hantz also! Come to think of it, he was responsible for his nephew's desire to redeem the family name and he obviously scarred Coach. See, if he had stayed loyal to Coach in HvV, brought him to F3, then maybe the guy wouldn't have felt the need to return. It's all Hantz's fault!



Ils sont fous, ces Romains!

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  Table of Contents

  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
 RE: I Blame Hantz Jims02 12-19-11 1
   RE: I Blame Hantz Belle Book 12-19-11 2
   RE: I Blame Hantz michel 12-19-11 3
       RE: I Blame Hantz Jims02 12-21-11 12
           RE: I Blame Hantz michel 12-22-11 13
               RE: I Blame Hantz Jims02 12-22-11 14
                   RE: I Blame Hantz dabo 12-22-11 15
                   RE: I Blame Hantz michel 12-22-11 16
 RE: I Blame Hantz iltarion 12-20-11 4
   RE: I Blame Hantz michel 12-20-11 5
       RE: I Blame Hantz iltarion 12-20-11 6
           RE: I Blame Hantz michel 12-21-11 9
       RE: I Blame Hantz Belle Book 12-21-11 7
           RE: I Blame Hantz agman 12-21-11 8
               RE: I Blame Hantz michel 12-21-11 11
                   RE: I Blame Hantz agman 12-22-11 18
                       RE: I Blame Hantz michel 12-22-11 19
                           RE: I Blame Hantz Belle Book 12-23-11 20
           RE: I Blame Hantz michel 12-21-11 10
               RE: I Blame Hantz Belle Book 12-22-11 17

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Jims02 7328 desperate attention whore postings
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12-19-11, 09:01 PM (EST)
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1. "RE: I Blame Hantz"
LAST EDITED ON 12-19-11 AT 09:06 PM (EST)

Hantz had nothing to do with it. I'd agree with you that, yeah, there's a reasonable argument there for Fabio's win... However, Sophie won because she focused on jury management during a Pagonging, while Coach and Albert were busy fatally jury-poisoning themselves.

I don't really get your utter disdain for Sophie's game. There have been many, many people who have won the game by just steering the ship to victory. And considering how many people get blindsided out of the game, that has to count for something.

In fact, Sophie's win resembled some of the more classic winners (particularly Ethan and Tina) where the winner just rode their way through a Pagonging, kept close tabs on the jury, and found a suitable goat to sit next to. And unlike someone like Tina or Ethan, Sophie actually had to deal with someone like Albert who smartly realized, "Gee, Sophie could actually win the game" and tried to get her out. Ignoring the Brandon TC, I'm still not sure how she got through that Rick vote.

Coach handled the Brandon and Ozzy vote-offs so hilariously bad that he deserved to be disqualified. It was such a ridiculously awful collapse down the stretch from Coach, who played almost a perfect game up to that point. I'm having trouble thinking of another runner-up who had a worse final stretch of their season... Maybe Stephanie? Or maybe Sash?

Was Sophie's game one of the more interesting ones? Nah, not really. Steering the ship isn't nearly as exciting as a season like Pearl Islands or Fans vs Favorites. But to discount her game because she obviously didn't need to make any game-changing moves is selling her way, way, way too short.

Your real complaint is against people like Rick or Brandon, who were either unwilling or unable to play a strategic game, and allowed Sophie to steer her way to victory. I'd also lump Albert into the category, but he at least repeatedly tried to make a big move (although Sophie/Coach wouldn't let him).


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Belle Book 3556 desperate attention whore postings
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12-19-11, 09:38 PM (EST)
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2. "RE: I Blame Hantz"
I think Michel was so turned off by the editing of Sophie that he couldn't accept the possibility that she might win. That might be partly Jeff's fault -- he really liked Coach and he probably didn't like that Sophie beat him, so he may have made sure that the editing gave her the short end of the stick.

Also, as you pointed out, Sophie's game plan wasn't really very interesting since all she did was steer the ship. But being able to steer the ship in such a way that she could avoid being voted out in the process (and deal with someone like Albert who actually realized that Sophie was a threat) is saying something good, as you noticed.

Rick and Brandon had no strategic game play whatsoever, and that helped her out, so I'd suggest Michel blame them more than Sophie, who was smart enough to take advantage of their lack of strategic game-play and ride it out to a win.


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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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12-19-11, 10:13 PM (EST)
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3. "RE: I Blame Hantz"
LAST EDITED ON 12-19-11 AT 10:16 PM (EST)

First of all, Tina made many very important moves: She blindsided Mitchell in what I consider the biggest pre-merge vote ever. She then got Kimmi to reveal the prior vote against Varner. She eliminated Jerri to solidify her "nice people" cross-tribal alliance with Lis and Rodger and then she booted Amber to cut Colby's options.

Ethan didn't do much but he quickly realized that throwing challenges was the thing to do when facing a tribal swap.

Next, you are wrong when you say I disdain Sophie's game. I disdain the whole game played in the South Pathetic. Yes, my real complaint is against Rick, Edna and Brandon for making it so easy and to Coach and Albert for being so dumb. A winner should have to Outwit but Sophie's position was safe after day 1. Boring season. They've all been boring since Hantz made a fool of himself in Samoa.

The level of gameplay this season was as bad as we saw in Thailand. Thailand had the excuse of being season 5. This is season 23. People should know how to play the game.

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Jims02 7328 desperate attention whore postings
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12-21-11, 11:13 PM (EST)
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12. "RE: I Blame Hantz"
LAST EDITED ON 12-21-11 AT 11:18 PM (EST)

I didn't mean to put words in your mouth about the disdain thing... You'd been pretty vocal about Sophie's "cold fish" attitude over the past few weeks, so it seemed like an extension of that.

And, hey, you don't have to list off Tina's accomplishments to me. Most people would say that I over-rate her as a winner on the show. I was more-or-less using Tina as an example on the sliding scale of people who:

Were in power most all the way through and didn't necessarily have to shake things up too much (like Richard, Ethan, Brian, Tom, Natalie, Sophie).

Had to scramble quite a bit and/or fell into the minority vote occasionally (Jenna, Sandra twice, Chris, Danni, Bob, J.T., Fabio).

(Granted, this is a sliding scale, so some people are going to fall closer to the middle than others. I'd probably put Tina somewhere around people like Tom or maybe Todd.)

Brian and Ethan's games were probably most similar to this season. Especially Brian's.

It's tough to tell sometimes, though, if the gameplay is just inherently poor or if it's a testament to what a stranglehold the winner had on the alliance. With Thailand, I feel like everyone was playing the game (except for Jan), but that all of the Chuay Gahns thought they had deals with Brian. So nobody ever felt compelled to move. If I were in Helen's shoes, I don't think I could've known to make a move at F5 or F6 because of Brian.

Brian played them a little too well to make it an interesting season.

The same thing kinda happened in Samoa with Russell, in which he made multiple F3 deals with people, except that jury didn't give him the money for it. But that was, as we all know, because Russell is an idiot.

This season felt more like a swing back to Brian again, in that (via Sophie's recent interviews) we're now learning that Sophie had deals with both Edna and Rick and consciously broke them. Edna wasn't jumping to Savaii at the merge. Rick wasn't voting her out at the Final 5. And, just like Brian, the jury threw the money at her.

Of course, having a good goat next to you like Clay or Coach or Albert (but not Natalie!) certainly helps with getting away with it.

But, yeah, it does indeed make for a pretty boring season. It's one of those things where I really respect the stranglehold that Sophie and Brian had on their seasons, but don't really care to re-watch them. Survivor needs to find a mix of people who are playing the game but aren't too good at it.


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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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12-22-11, 00:05 AM (EST)
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13. "RE: I Blame Hantz"
I simply cannot compare Brian and Sophie. Brian was the manipulator and he fooled everyone with his charm, his work ethic and his strategy.

Sophie didn't charm anyone, they saw her as a spoiled brat. She didn't fool them either. If Edna believed that Sophie was with her then that makes her the dumbest player ever. Sophie showed that she didn't care about Edna when Mikayla was voted out. Brian never made that kind of mistake. When he targeted someone that person was gone.

As for Rick, we saw that he had the deal with Sophie only through Coach. If Coach had been smart and voted out Sophie instead of Brandon then Rick would have followed.

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Jims02 7328 desperate attention whore postings
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12-22-11, 00:33 AM (EST)
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14. "RE: I Blame Hantz"
Really? The charm is about the only thing that separates Sophie from Brian. The work ethic thing is more of a non-factor because alliances hardly ever fall apart because one member isn't working. It doesn't make a difference to me if Helen stuck with Brian because of his "charm", versus Rick sticking to Sophie because of her word. The main thing is that Rick thought his deal with Sophie was solid enough to prevent Albert from over-throwing her.

Sophie and Brian are both cool, calculating individuals who made multiple deals and sub-alliances with multiple people. And both got away with it. That's the basis of the comparison.

The Edna thing is a little more nebulous because we don't have many details about it, other than the Sophie interview. For all we know, the deal went down when Savaii was being whittled down and Edna was thinking endgame. It might not even be true.


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dabo 25344 desperate attention whore postings
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12-22-11, 02:39 AM (EST)
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15. "RE: I Blame Hantz"
Sophie and Brian are both cool, calculating individuals who made multiple deals and sub-alliances with multiple people. And both got away with it. That's the basis of the comparison.

Cool. There are, of course, some vast differences between the two. Brian was an older and naturally anti-social schmoozer who knew he was an Iceman but played the social schmoozer game from Day 1, he hid the Iceman as much as possible. Sophie, much younger and inexperienced, has a reserved and guarded social persona, she was unaware of how others view her, that her emotional shield was her Kryptonite.

Plus, of course, Brian landed in a control position early in the game, and managed to keep it to the end, whereas Sophie manipulated situations as best she could without ever grabbing a control position.

The main point where their games come together, they both got to FTC with the best goats.

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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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12-22-11, 08:30 AM (EST)
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16. "RE: I Blame Hantz"
"The main thing is that Rick thought his deal with Sophie was solid enough to prevent Albert from over-throwing her."

There's something that doesn't add up in Sophie's fiction: Why was Rick angry with Coach? If he had the big deal with her and she voted him out, he should have been upset with her. Instead, he voted with Ozzy against her. Doesn't sound like the big alliance she is making it out to be.

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iltarion 1791 desperate attention whore postings
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12-20-11, 00:59 AM (EST)
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4. "RE: I Blame Hantz"

Michel would also have you believe that Tina invented the internet.

Wow, Tina voted off all those people? I didn't know one vote was so powerful. I guess the game was different back then.

But let's not fall into that argument again.

Although I applaud michel's intent to blame the ills of the world on the Hantz, the point is also well-made that non-players have been winning Survivor since its earliest days.

In fact, Vecepia set a standard for non-play that I don't think even Natalie, Fabio or Sophie can approach.

To give credit for Sophie "steering the ship" is like giving me credit for using the microwave. Afterall, what amount of "steering" was needed? None that I recall. The ship was pretty much on cruise control, and she only had to keep her head down.

On the other hand, I can make an argument for her that you can't make for Natalie, Vecepia or Tina. Sophie deserved to win because she won the final immunity challenge. If she doesn't, Ozzy wins. Therefore, she was more deserving than Coach or Albert, neither of which would have had any chance if Ozzy won.

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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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12-20-11, 09:49 PM (EST)
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5. "RE: I Blame Hantz"
>Wow, Tina voted off all those
>people? I didn't know one
>vote was so powerful. I
>guess the game was different
>back then.

Didn't you see how poorly Colby played is @ss and in HvV? That's because he didn't have Tina telling him what to do.


>But let's not fall into that
>argument again.

OK, that's all I'll say of Outback.

>Although I applaud michel's intent to
>blame the ills of the
>world on the Hantz, the
>point is also well-made that
>non-players have been winning Survivor
>since its earliest days.

But every single one had to make a move or had to scramble to save themselves. Sophie made an alliance on day 1 and was safe through F5 and didn't need to blindside anyone. Much too easy.


>In fact, Vecepia set a standard
>for non-play that I don't
>think even Natalie, Fabio or
>Sophie can approach.

Vee was much better at flipping and flopping alliances than most players ever were. And I'm not talking of Sophie herself but the whole season. Marquesas had a huge blindside in episode #3, something we didn't see in South Pathetic and then we had the first ever coup against a dominating alliance. Vee was part of both those big moves. There was interesting strategy being played in Marquesas. There was nothing in South Pathetic.

>To give credit for Sophie "steering
>the ship" is like giving
>me credit for using the
>microwave. Afterall, what amount of
>"steering" was needed? None that
>I recall. The ship was
>pretty much on cruise control,
>and she only had to
>keep her head down.

Finally, you get it.

>On the other hand, I can
>make an argument for her
>that you can't make for
>Natalie, Vecepia or Tina. Sophie
>deserved to win because she
>won the final immunity challenge.
>If she doesn't, Ozzy wins.
>Therefore, she was more deserving
>than Coach or Albert, neither
>of which would have had
>any chance if Ozzy won.

Yes, winning that challenge meant she deserved to win but I was talking about the level of strategic play in South Pathetic. It's that which I blame on Hantz: People are now afraid to make moves. Not afraid to win challenges!!

But look at it this way: Sophie won her big challenge only because of the change of format. There was no RI in the early seasons so no one could return. On the other hand, the F3 saved Sophie from what had been historically the most dangerous challenge. How many players lost that F3 challenge? Would Sophie had beaten Coach and Albert? We don't know, we just know that she, like every other F3 finalist, had a free pass to the end.


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iltarion 1791 desperate attention whore postings
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12-20-11, 10:38 PM (EST)
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6. "RE: I Blame Hantz"

I don't know, maybe we should talk about the Outback considering how quiet these boards are becoming. Or any season but this drag.

Though I believe I've already acquiesced most the points about Tina in light of Colby's more recent pathetic performances.

I will point out, again, however that if Colby doesn't successfully put the target on his back at merge, the Varner reveal means nothing. If Kucha votes for Keith or Jerri, it is all over for Tina. As close as Kucha was, they pagong Ogakor for sure. Kucha, come on, why the hell would anyone have voted for Colby?

Also, I'll point out that if Colby isn't more concerned with his acting career than a million dollars, Tina doesn't win anything.

In Marquesas, we had the classic alpha male struggle with Rob and Sean getting rid of Hunter because they couldn't handle anyone else leading. We have seen that over and over again, including just this season with Jim making a stupid move to get power away from Ozzy.

In the post-merge power switch, the Rotu4 were foolish enough to spell out their boot order. The credit goes to Pascal and Nelah for making the move. Since Sean and Vecepia were in the minority, they would have accepted any move that came their way.

Last season was WAY better than this. Any season with B-Rob is a vast improvement from the crap we saw this season.

I wouldn't put this season below Fuji though. I'll take boring over unlikable, but that is just me.

I "finally" get it? That's what I've been saying this whole time.

True that the F3 is lame and needs to go. I was thinking that when Jeff started reading the votes. "I bet Albert is the one this time who gets no votes." Considering there always is someone getting shut out, what is the sense of having an F3? That is one of the few things Micronesia got right. Go back to the F2.


>

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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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12-21-11, 11:02 PM (EST)
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9. "RE: I Blame Hantz"
>
>I don't know, maybe we should
>talk about the Outback considering
>how quiet these boards are
>becoming. Or any season but
>this drag.

Ok, but in moderation!


>I will point out, again, however
>that if Colby doesn't successfully
>put the target on his
>back at merge, the Varner
>reveal means nothing. If Kucha
>votes for Keith or Jerri,
>it is all over for
>Tina. As close as Kucha
>was, they pagong Ogakor for
>sure. Kucha, come on, why
>the hell would anyone have
>voted for Colby?

I've answered that before. It was because, after seeing Kel and Mitchell voted out, Kucha saw Ogakor as a tribe run by the women. When they visited each other, Kucha had the sense that Jerri, Amber and tina were tight while they saw that Colby hated Keith. They figured that Colby had to have gotten a vote at one point. Tina could act, Colby couldn't (which explains his failed acting career!)


>Also, I'll point out that if
>Colby isn't more concerned with
>his acting career than a
>million dollars, Tina doesn't win
>anything.

Tina knew that Colby hated Keith.


>In the post-merge power switch, the
>Rotu4 were foolish enough to
>spell out their boot order.
>The credit goes to Pascal
>and Nelah for making the
>move. Since Sean and Vecepia
>were in the minority, they
>would have accepted any move
>that came their way.

Except it was Sean and Vee that pointed out to Kathy that the Rotu4 were eliminating people in the exact order they would boot them. They had to work hard to convince Paschal and Neleh into making a move.


>I wouldn't put this season below
>Fuji though. I'll take boring
>over unlikable, but that is
>just me.

Fiji had many funny moments.


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Belle Book 3556 desperate attention whore postings
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12-21-11, 12:03 PM (EST)
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7. "RE: I Blame Hantz"
LAST EDITED ON 12-21-11 AT 12:03 PM (EST)

>But every single one had to make a move or had to scramble to
>save themselves. Sophie made an alliance on day 1 and was safe
>through F5 and didn't need to blindside anyone. Much too easy.

It certainly looked easy enough, but if you read any of Sophie's interviews after her win, it wasn't as easy as she made it look. It takes a lot of work to put yourself into a position where she'd be safe through the F5 or F3 -- ask Boston Rob about that one!

I agree that too many people are afraid to make moves (or at least big ones), and Troll might be partially to blame, but it also might be partly the result of too many people not being the type that will make big moves (like me -- I'd prefer making small but effective moves) or aware of the need to make big moves. And there's the fact that big moves carry the risk of blowing up in one's face. Several people this season made that one clear.


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agman 11158 desperate attention whore postings
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12-21-11, 02:25 PM (EST)
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8. "RE: I Blame Hantz"

I agree, just look at what happened to Cochran for instance. That big move may have bought him a little time, but it left him nowhere in the end.
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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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12-21-11, 11:09 PM (EST)
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11. "RE: I Blame Hantz"
Except, if Rick and Edna hadn't been blind, if Albert had seen that the only way to change the game was by booting Coach then Cochran could have flipped again with Dawn and Whitney and controlled the game.

Even Coach said he was hesitating between going with Albert and Sophie or Cochran and Edna as late as F7 so Cochran had possibilities. If Upolu hadn't been brainwashed into believing that making moves was evil, then we could have had a season.

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agman 11158 desperate attention whore postings
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12-22-11, 12:10 PM (EST)
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18. "RE: I Blame Hantz"

A lot of if's there which can be a problem with bold moves! I agree with your assessment of the situation though.



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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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12-22-11, 08:28 PM (EST)
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19. "RE: I Blame Hantz"
Yes, a lot of ifs but the biggest "if" of all was burning in Cochran's mind: "What if I pick the purple rock?"

You know what's funny? When someone doesn't make a similar move and still loses, many here say they should have flipped.

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Belle Book 3556 desperate attention whore postings
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12-23-11, 01:47 PM (EST)
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20. "RE: I Blame Hantz"
True. Very true. There's as much risk involved in not making a bold move as there is in making one. Cochran's bold move would've worked out better for him if Coach (with help from Albert and Sophie) hadn't controlled his cult so strongly.


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michel 10812 desperate attention whore postings
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12-21-11, 11:05 PM (EST)
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10. "RE: I Blame Hantz"
LAST EDITED ON 12-21-11 AT 11:10 PM (EST)

Belle: Reading interviews is like listening to a lobby promoting big business or a PR guy talking about a politician. Spin, spin, spin.

The only reason why Sophie made it passed F5 was because Coach thought that Brandon could win. That is freaking unbelievable. Any sane man would have booted Sophie right there and then and she did nothing to prevent it.

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Belle Book 3556 desperate attention whore postings
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12-22-11, 11:59 AM (EST)
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17. "RE: I Blame Hantz"
I agree with you that Coach should have dumped Sophie right at the Final 5, but just because we saw her do nothing to prevent it does not mean she did nothing to prevent it. Remember -- editing can take stuff out. For all we know, she did make moves (if small ones) and we weren't shown it.

And I gave the example of Boston Rob because I kind of figured you'd claim my reading her interview was just an attempt to spin things in her favor. He had said being in charge of his own alliance wasn't as easy as he made it look either.


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